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timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (1 Viewer)
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timschochet
Footballguy
Im actually an Irvine grad. And anyhow 23 is too low for me.
timschochet
Footballguy
They did in my case.
timschochet
Footballguy
I know that
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
That of course is one of the fatal flaws of your's and other such list.timschochet said:
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Green and Gold
Footballguy
Any list without R. Edward Lopez is a bust.Bottomfeeder Sports said:
timschochet
Footballguy
Very nice! Not a lot of people know that.Bottomfeeder Sports said:
timschochet
Footballguy
23. Jackie Robinson
Above anything else, I hate to lose.
I believe that former UCLA running back Jackie Robinson is the most overrated player in the history of professional baseball. I write this because every time there is a list of the top 50 or 100 greatest baseball players of all time, he is somewhere in the high 20s. And if you look at the lifetime statistics of other everyday players that are just before or after him, Jackie really doesn't belong. Sure, he was a perennial all star, but he's a lifetime .311 hitter which is good but not great. He really only had one great batting year (1949). He was an exciting base-runner, but not one of the all time greats at that either. And few would regard him as one of the great defensive second basemen of all time. (For clarification, Robinson was excellent at all of these things, but when we're talking the greatest of all time, he just doesn't belong; that's why I regard him as overrated.
But of course, he is on these lists because he was the first African-American major league baseball player of the modern era. That should be an irrelevant factor in determining the greatest baseball players IMO. However, it is very relevant to THIS list, because Jackie Robinson changed American society dramatically, more than any other single African-American (with one exception, coming up later). His importance upon American culture cannot be overstated, and it really is a commentary on the transformational power of sports in our society.
Obviously there were other famous black athletes before Jackie Robinson: notably Jack Johnson, Jesse Owens, and Joe Louis. All three of these, along with a few others, had a dramatic impact on the history of black America. But there are important distinctions between them and Jackie. First off, even though boxing is now regarded as more of a thinking man's sport, it was not then, so the achievements of Johnson and Louis were perceived as sheer athleticism, and the same for Owens. Second, these were individual sports, and baseball was a team sport. One of the keys to segregation in our society was the widespread belief that blacks and whites simply could not work together as equals- Robinson disproved that for all the public to see, and the result was eventual massive change to all aspects of society. Finally, timing is everything. Jackie came along just after World War II, when America, finally relieved of economic crisis, was ready to fix it's racial problems. Jackie Robinson went a long way towards acceptance of racial equality.
Up next: He operated a cattle ranch in the Badlands of North Dakota...
Above anything else, I hate to lose.
I believe that former UCLA running back Jackie Robinson is the most overrated player in the history of professional baseball. I write this because every time there is a list of the top 50 or 100 greatest baseball players of all time, he is somewhere in the high 20s. And if you look at the lifetime statistics of other everyday players that are just before or after him, Jackie really doesn't belong. Sure, he was a perennial all star, but he's a lifetime .311 hitter which is good but not great. He really only had one great batting year (1949). He was an exciting base-runner, but not one of the all time greats at that either. And few would regard him as one of the great defensive second basemen of all time. (For clarification, Robinson was excellent at all of these things, but when we're talking the greatest of all time, he just doesn't belong; that's why I regard him as overrated.
But of course, he is on these lists because he was the first African-American major league baseball player of the modern era. That should be an irrelevant factor in determining the greatest baseball players IMO. However, it is very relevant to THIS list, because Jackie Robinson changed American society dramatically, more than any other single African-American (with one exception, coming up later). His importance upon American culture cannot be overstated, and it really is a commentary on the transformational power of sports in our society.
Obviously there were other famous black athletes before Jackie Robinson: notably Jack Johnson, Jesse Owens, and Joe Louis. All three of these, along with a few others, had a dramatic impact on the history of black America. But there are important distinctions between them and Jackie. First off, even though boxing is now regarded as more of a thinking man's sport, it was not then, so the achievements of Johnson and Louis were perceived as sheer athleticism, and the same for Owens. Second, these were individual sports, and baseball was a team sport. One of the keys to segregation in our society was the widespread belief that blacks and whites simply could not work together as equals- Robinson disproved that for all the public to see, and the result was eventual massive change to all aspects of society. Finally, timing is everything. Jackie came along just after World War II, when America, finally relieved of economic crisis, was ready to fix it's racial problems. Jackie Robinson went a long way towards acceptance of racial equality.
Up next: He operated a cattle ranch in the Badlands of North Dakota...
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Hey Tim, I certainly did not mean to indicate you should leave the Paris thread. The political and religious implications are worth discussing. Pick a different thread, glad to to discuss it in this one or another.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
22. Teddy Roosevelt
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Of course one of our greatest Presidents, heroes, and completely belongs in the top 25. His exploits are too long and unnecessary for me to detail here. It certainly would be interesting to see what he would think of the current state of our political system, how he would handle our current threats such as ISIS, etc. He might support Bernie Sanders, as Bernie is the most progressive candidate and wants to break up the power of Wall Street, which would have been in Teddy's line of thinking. I'm guessing Teddy would be horrified by the candidacy of Donald Trump, even though he might agree with him on the immigration issue (IMO, one of Teddy's few faults was a nativist perspective on immigration.)
But that's all unimportant anyhow. The greatest thing about Teddy Roosevelt, which I think even Robin Williams did a good job capturing in those otherwise horrible Museum movies that my kids dragged me to, was how much larger than life he was, how ebullient and optimistic. He was a hero. We have so few larger than life heroes today, and so few optimists in politics. (Obama was an optimist until he became President; since then he's been crabby.) Reagan may have been our last great political optimist. But Teddy was the greatest optimist in our history. He knew that in America everything comes out right in the end. It's still true.
Next up: The only person on this list from Louisville, Kentucky...
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Of course one of our greatest Presidents, heroes, and completely belongs in the top 25. His exploits are too long and unnecessary for me to detail here. It certainly would be interesting to see what he would think of the current state of our political system, how he would handle our current threats such as ISIS, etc. He might support Bernie Sanders, as Bernie is the most progressive candidate and wants to break up the power of Wall Street, which would have been in Teddy's line of thinking. I'm guessing Teddy would be horrified by the candidacy of Donald Trump, even though he might agree with him on the immigration issue (IMO, one of Teddy's few faults was a nativist perspective on immigration.)
But that's all unimportant anyhow. The greatest thing about Teddy Roosevelt, which I think even Robin Williams did a good job capturing in those otherwise horrible Museum movies that my kids dragged me to, was how much larger than life he was, how ebullient and optimistic. He was a hero. We have so few larger than life heroes today, and so few optimists in politics. (Obama was an optimist until he became President; since then he's been crabby.) Reagan may have been our last great political optimist. But Teddy was the greatest optimist in our history. He knew that in America everything comes out right in the end. It's still true.
Next up: The only person on this list from Louisville, Kentucky...
dparker713
Footballguy
There is no way you find 21 Americans that should legitimately be ranked ahead of Teddy.timschochet said:
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Cassius Claytimschochet said:
Jennifer Lawrence
Hunter s. Thompson
Abraham Lincoln
I'm going with Thompson, frankly I think all four should have a place on the list. Well at least three of them.
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Interesting.
If you don't mind, as I list the 21 people, please tell me if each one should or should not be ranked ahead of Teddy.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Wasn't Clark a Louisville guy?
timschochet
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
No I'm OK. Clark died in Louisville, but he was born in Charlottesville Virginia. Whew!
timschochet
Footballguy
Further correction b cause I was looking at Clark's brother' bio (George Rogers, the revolutionary general). Clark the explorer was born in Ladysmith Va but did grow up in Louisville.
timschochet
Footballguy
He grew up there too but his birthplace was Syracuse NY
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Yeah, looking it up, I guess it's his brother that is considered "Father of Louisville". I just always associated that family with Louisville.
timschochet
Footballguy
21. Muhammad Ali
The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.
I could have legitimately ranked Ali #1 on this list, since he is, or course, The Greatest. However, I have the sad feeling, and I'm not sure about this at all, that as years go by he will be dropping down the lists of great Americans, as those of my generation and those older than me pass on. Already Ali is less and less remembered. And of course the sport that he dominated is dying as well.
Yet during a period of about 18 years, roughly from 1963 to 1981, there was no more famous person on the entire planet than Muhammad Ali. Even more than Elvis Presley, he is arguably the most recognized American face around the world. And because the years in question were such a pivotal part of our history, so filled with societal change (the most in American history other than the Civil War era), and because Ali was so much at the forefront of that change, he has to be ranked very highly on this list- at least for now.
If Muhammad Ali had simply been a famous athlete and the world's greatest boxer, he would still likely have a spot on this list, though below Babe Ruth and Jim Thorpe (and certainly below Jackie Robinson.) But of course he was more than that; he changed attitudes both about black Americans and about American regard for the third world. Two other African-American boxers also had significant impact on American society: these were Jack Johnson and Joe Louis. I considered both for this list pretty carefully and ultimately could not place them. Johnson's significance was negative in that he actually increased Jim Crow and racism, but boxing was not as major a sport then (it was Jack Dempsey, who I also considered, who turned boxing into a "star" sport- he was a contemporary of Babe Ruth.) Joe Louis, in many ways the antithesis of Muhammad Ali, paved the way for Jackie Robinson and integration but did not have as big an impact as Robinson.
Interestingly enough, the man that boxing experts believe is the only one whose skills in the ring rivaled Ali's or even surpassed him, Sugar Ray Robinson, is a guy that I never even considered. Outside of the sport itself his public exposure was nonexistent.
Up next: Our top 20 begins with a man who was born in Florida- and that's a trick hint...
The man who views the world at 50 the same as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.
I could have legitimately ranked Ali #1 on this list, since he is, or course, The Greatest. However, I have the sad feeling, and I'm not sure about this at all, that as years go by he will be dropping down the lists of great Americans, as those of my generation and those older than me pass on. Already Ali is less and less remembered. And of course the sport that he dominated is dying as well.
Yet during a period of about 18 years, roughly from 1963 to 1981, there was no more famous person on the entire planet than Muhammad Ali. Even more than Elvis Presley, he is arguably the most recognized American face around the world. And because the years in question were such a pivotal part of our history, so filled with societal change (the most in American history other than the Civil War era), and because Ali was so much at the forefront of that change, he has to be ranked very highly on this list- at least for now.
If Muhammad Ali had simply been a famous athlete and the world's greatest boxer, he would still likely have a spot on this list, though below Babe Ruth and Jim Thorpe (and certainly below Jackie Robinson.) But of course he was more than that; he changed attitudes both about black Americans and about American regard for the third world. Two other African-American boxers also had significant impact on American society: these were Jack Johnson and Joe Louis. I considered both for this list pretty carefully and ultimately could not place them. Johnson's significance was negative in that he actually increased Jim Crow and racism, but boxing was not as major a sport then (it was Jack Dempsey, who I also considered, who turned boxing into a "star" sport- he was a contemporary of Babe Ruth.) Joe Louis, in many ways the antithesis of Muhammad Ali, paved the way for Jackie Robinson and integration but did not have as big an impact as Robinson.
Interestingly enough, the man that boxing experts believe is the only one whose skills in the ring rivaled Ali's or even surpassed him, Sugar Ray Robinson, is a guy that I never even considered. Outside of the sport itself his public exposure was nonexistent.
Up next: Our top 20 begins with a man who was born in Florida- and that's a trick hint...
timschochet
Footballguy
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Tim - when you're done will you be offended if I release my list of 100 mediumest Americans?
timschochet
Footballguy
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
100. Iron Eyes Cody
Iron Eyes Cody was an actor who was in a myriad of small roles, usually as some generic Indian character. He's most famous for being the crying Indian on the "keep America Beautiful" commercials (link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Suu84khNGY). But he also has credits for several other tour de force films like Sitting Bull and Ernest Goes to Camp. Despite being one of the most recognizable Native Americans from the last century, I'm pretty sure he was really Italian.
timschochet
Footballguy
Best ever use of Iron Eyes was back when Jane Fonda was married to Ted Turner- SNL had a split screen of Jane doing the Tomahawk Chop while on the other side Cody had the tear. Great pick!
dparker713
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
20. Mark Twain
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
Yes, Samuel Clemens was born in Florida- Florida, Missouri that is. (Hence the trick clue!)
The top 20 of my list is crowded with statesmen and innovators, but it's fitting to kick it off with America's greatest man of letters. Yes, I know that if you walk into any English department, there will be a list of great American writers that are generally regarded above Mark Twain: Herman Melville, Nathaniel Hawthorne, William Faulkner, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, John Steinbeck, just to name a few.
But this is a list of great Americans, and Twain has to top all of those guys, even Hemingway (who also made this list a while back) because he is the quintessential American writer. He is the first one everybody thinks of, the classic name, arguably the greatest observer of our society. Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, more so than Moby **** or The Great Gatsby, really is THE American novel. And Tom Sawyer is arguably our greatest fictional creation (with all apologies to Superman and Batman.)
Twain was a liberal but no extremist. He was a humorist and a satirist but never a cynic. There is a sense of optimism which is evident in all of his writings, a love for America and what it could be. He was definitely a moralist but didn't look down on anyone, and always avoided patronizing people. He hated lecturing and being lectured to. And even though his values were by and large progressive, he defended the strengths of the conservative rural society in which he was raised. Very clearly one of our greatest Americans.
Up next: the Founding Father who, as a lawyer, defended the British soldiers accused of murder in the Boston Massacre...
Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
Yes, Samuel Clemens was born in Florida- Florida, Missouri that is. (Hence the trick clue!)
The top 20 of my list is crowded with statesmen and innovators, but it's fitting to kick it off with America's greatest man of letters. Yes, I know that if you walk into any English department, there will be a list of great American writers that are generally regarded above Mark Twain: Herman Melville, Nathaniel Hawthorne, William Faulkner, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Ernest Hemingway, John Steinbeck, just to name a few.
But this is a list of great Americans, and Twain has to top all of those guys, even Hemingway (who also made this list a while back) because he is the quintessential American writer. He is the first one everybody thinks of, the classic name, arguably the greatest observer of our society. Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, more so than Moby **** or The Great Gatsby, really is THE American novel. And Tom Sawyer is arguably our greatest fictional creation (with all apologies to Superman and Batman.)
Twain was a liberal but no extremist. He was a humorist and a satirist but never a cynic. There is a sense of optimism which is evident in all of his writings, a love for America and what it could be. He was definitely a moralist but didn't look down on anyone, and always avoided patronizing people. He hated lecturing and being lectured to. And even though his values were by and large progressive, he defended the strengths of the conservative rural society in which he was raised. Very clearly one of our greatest Americans.
Up next: the Founding Father who, as a lawyer, defended the British soldiers accused of murder in the Boston Massacre...
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Interesting. There's nothing in ladysmith but a rest area off I-95
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Not him - but don't be surprised if his son Donald the Opthamalogist does make the cut. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwood_Schwartz#Personal_life
timschochet
Footballguy
you know what those guys both have in common? In both cases I tried to read their most famous work and couldn't get through it. Miller in particular was really dull.
timschochet
Footballguy
In fact there's a great novel by Irving Wallace called The Seven Minutes about an obscenity trial and the writer of the book on trial is heavily based on Henry Miler- that book I really enjoyed. I also liked the film Henry and June (the girl who played Anais Nin was super hot as I recall) but Miller's actual writings- total dullsville.
timschochet
Footballguy
As far as Thompson I have a collection of old Playboy interviews and he's in it, and his desciption of the 1972 campaign was interesting enough that I figured I'd try it out. But again I just couldn't get past his weird writing style- "gonzo journalism".
timschochet
Footballguy
When this list is done I'm going to rank my 100 favorite novels. Should be fun.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
So Michael Trout, the best baseball of our generation, got screwed yet again yesterday. That's 3 times in 4 years. It seems to me that if you have the best WAR you should be the MVP. Trout didn't have as good a batting average as Donaldson, but the difference wasn't extreme. He also doesn't have as many RBIs, but that is often a product of how good your team is. Trout is a much better fielder, much better on the bases, more dangerous with a bat in his hand, and simply a more valuable player. Once again, he was robbed. This is getting to be a pattern.
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