C
CrossEyed
Guest
And is he really no better than Rock Cartwright?
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Because they hate wasting time researching for the draft. The current regime there must really have something against building through sound drafting. I wouldnt be surprised to see them trade a pick for a team doctor or groundskeeper.
5-ish Finkle
Footballguy
That's what I believed then and I think it's pretty much been born out.They didn't know for certain how severe Portis' injury was. Betts was banged up at the time also and they were able to obtain a disaster option at, what they felt, was a justifiable cost.
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Andy Hicks
Footballguy
Going on the experience of previous years, Washington had too many 1st day picks and has to get rid of them somehow
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
To make owners panic, run to the WW to get TJ Duckett, and hope they found lightning in a bottle...
C
CrossEyed
Guest
Duckett is UFA next year, correct? Does he end up a starter next year someplace or is he destined to be a career backup?
dgreen
Footballguy
I firmly believe Duckett will make an impact for the Redskins at some point this season. I think we have to wait until the end of the movie before we ask this question. Will it be worth a third-rounder? No idea, but I don't think we've seen what he will do for the team.
Ever since Gibbs took over, we've asked a ton of questions at one point in time only to find out the answer down the road.
Why is Gibbs sticking with Brunell?
Why did they trade Coles for Moss?
Why aren't they playing Lavar?
Why, why, why, why?
If you just take a snapshot right now, the trade doesn't make sense. I think, one day, it will.
As for Cartwright, he's one of the top KR in the league so far through four games and is good on kick coverage. Duckett has been practicing some special teams stuff recently and hasn't been active the last two games because Gibbs said they needed an extra TE.
Ever since Gibbs took over, we've asked a ton of questions at one point in time only to find out the answer down the road.
Why is Gibbs sticking with Brunell?
Why did they trade Coles for Moss?
Why aren't they playing Lavar?
Why, why, why, why?
If you just take a snapshot right now, the trade doesn't make sense. I think, one day, it will.
As for Cartwright, he's one of the top KR in the league so far through four games and is good on kick coverage. Duckett has been practicing some special teams stuff recently and hasn't been active the last two games because Gibbs said they needed an extra TE.
The Jacket
Footballguy
They're allergic to draft picks.
I agree with you mostly, but I think Duckett was a piece of mind move. I don't blame the organization for doing it at the time. If Duckett was traded to someone else, there really isn't any other viable options out there for the Redskins.
redman
Footballguy
I still think Duckett's going to get a hard look as a trade candidate. LOL @ anyone who preaches about wasting draft picks or being incompetent in handling player acquisitions or getting young talent. Just because you can't comprehend any other way to build a team other than the now-popular formula established by NE and Philly (who, BTW, have plenty of their own critics in this regard) then the problem's with you and not the team. The last time I can recall the team being unable to acquire a needed player due to cap restrictions was 2001, when Schottenheimer was unable to get a decent QB after dumping all of that old, washed up talent they'd signed and went into the year with Jeff George and Tony Banks running a WCO scheme. If you can come up with a more recent example, thrill us with your insight (I'll tell you in advance you're wrong).
dgreen
Footballguy
And that someone else Duckett could have been traded to could have been in their division. It's possible we'll never see the benefit of the trade because it was more to prevent a competitor from having his services.However, Duckett hasn't complained one bit and was seen jumping for joy after their OT win this week, indicating to me he's happy to be here. Knowing Gibbs, they have kept Duckett informed of what is going on and Duckett knows he'll be used.
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Dont get me wrong, I'm happy to have Duckett in DC. I agreed with the trade when it was made, and I don't mind the slight overpayment of it now, the team has depth at RB which has always been one of my biggest concerns with the team.
corpcow
Footballguy
redman
Footballguy
I agree with you. I'm not critical of the move as I like Duckett and thought the move was justified when it was made in early August because the implications of Portis' injury were unknown. The price paid for him was fairly steep, but the team was in no position to bargain hard as everyone with a pulse knew why they were interested in him. My concern is that both he and Betts are UFA's after this season and I'd like very much to have at least one of them back next season. And if we can't have Duckett, I think the team should trade him and try to recoup the pick that was traded to get him.
BigJim®
Footballguy
How can you say that? Look at how their research paid off with Jason Campb.... Oh, never mind.
dgreen
Footballguy
How can you say that? Look at how their research paid off with Jason Campb.... Oh, never mind.
saintfool
Dead sexy
I agree. It was insurance at a premium price. However, I don't think they will be able to trade Duckett. They have done nothing to showcase his abilities. As it stands, people will just wonder why a guy like Betts has kept him at bay. It amounts to a whisper campaign, I think. Consequently, unless he gets a chance to show his stuff there is ZERO chance that they recoup the cost for him.
BigJim®
Footballguy
I don't see how that is capable of confusing. I was agreeing with Bloom that they hate wasting time researching the draft when their research results in them wasting 3 draft picks to select a guy like Jason Campbell to gather dust on their bench. They'd obviously prefer to forgo that sort of research and instead use a single draft pick to allow a guy like TJ Duckett to gather dust. HTHHow can you say that? Look at how their research paid off with Jason Campb.... Oh, never mind.
dgreen
Footballguy
Do you reach all your conclusions before all the evidence is in?In 2003, were you saying the Bengals wasted a pick on Carson Palmer because he was just collecting dust? Anyone who knows Gibbs, knew the route they would take with Campbell. They've stuck to that route and it is foolish to say they wasted picks to get him at this moment.I don't see how that is capable of confusing. I was agreeing with Bloom that they hate wasting time researching the draft when their research results in them wasting 3 draft picks to select a guy like Jason Campbell to gather dust on their bench. They'd obviously prefer to forgo that sort of research and instead use a single draft pick to allow a guy like TJ Duckett to gather dust. HTHHow can you say that? Look at how their research paid off with Jason Campb.... Oh, never mind.
Englishteacher
Footballguy
yeah, the level to which they've taken ignoring the draft is astonishing... borderline absurd. No sense of value whatsoever. essentially, they are the new York Yankees of the NFL. They overpay for star players and leave nothing behind in the system. Only in football this is hard to get away with as you need depth unless you have some kind of miracle run with no injuries and they can't keep spending like the Yankees do because there is a salary cap in football. What, they got one prospect this year in the draft? McIntosh LBer. And they overpaid dearly to get him as they had to jump high in Round 2 before the last stud LBer was gone. The reason why they had to do this? Lack of depth at LBer. It's the proverbial dog chasing it's tail. Why didn't they have a first round pick and a shot at Greenway, Carpenter, and others who were physically more sound than McIntosh, who had been labeled as injury prone? because they overpaid for 1st round pick Jason Campbell last year.Englishteacher
Footballguy
Week 6
NoFBinLA
Moderator
Top Ten Reasons Wash traded for Duckett
1 - He had the best Netflix reserve list.
2 - He's good to carry at least two cases for tailgating.
3 - Snazzy dresser.
4 - Brings own heating pad to keep the bench nice and warm.
5 - Prank phone call gone horribly, horribly awry.
6 - Warrick Dunn paid them to do it.
7 - When Portis said 'I'll be back soon' they thought he said 'I'd like a platoon'.
8 - Somebody has to keep Daniel Snyder's seat for him pregame.
9 - Bad intelligence from the NSA.
and the number ten reason the Washington Redskins traded for TJ Duckett --
1 - They were very, very drunk at the time.
Thank you thank you!
It might not be funny but I am high on cold medicine so who can tell....
1 - He had the best Netflix reserve list.
2 - He's good to carry at least two cases for tailgating.
3 - Snazzy dresser.
4 - Brings own heating pad to keep the bench nice and warm.
5 - Prank phone call gone horribly, horribly awry.
6 - Warrick Dunn paid them to do it.
7 - When Portis said 'I'll be back soon' they thought he said 'I'd like a platoon'.
8 - Somebody has to keep Daniel Snyder's seat for him pregame.
9 - Bad intelligence from the NSA.
and the number ten reason the Washington Redskins traded for TJ Duckett --
1 - They were very, very drunk at the time.
Thank you thank you!
It might not be funny but I am high on cold medicine so who can tell....
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Englishteacher
Footballguy
It's not the fact The Skins DRAFTED Campbell or that they're letting him learn from the bench first; it's the way he was aquired. They gave up way too much too get him. The Skins HAVE NO DEPTH. If it wasn't for Greg Williams being one of the best defensive coaches in the NFL with a scheme that works if you do what he tells you to the lack of talent beyond the starters would really show up. It's an organziational philosophy and I think it stems from up top, Snyder, he's used to getting his way. But he doesn't know much about football at all. They use up all their cap resources and draft picks and shoot themselves in the foot two or three seasons ahead of time by outbidding every team out there for questionable talent. Look at the Champ Bailey - Portis deal. Portis is one of the league's outstanding RB's but teams like Seattle and Indy couldn't even get a first rounder for either of their stud RB's, really even a second rounder. But, Washington gave up a complete rarity in the NFL, a shutdown corner, PLUS a second round pick for Portis to fit Gibbs power run scheme. Now in his first year of coaching, Gibbs' system proved to be antiquated and didn't work. So essentially they overpaid for a player to make their system go and the system didn't even work. The is a prime example of not getting value in your team's transactions. THE BEST MOVES THE SKINS HAVE MADE HAVE BEEN BRINGING IN GREAT COACHES. Now they are overpaying these guys too for their respective coaching positions in the NFL but at least they don't count against the salary cap. The next move the Skins could make that would reverse their fortunes would be to bring in a competent front office staff to run the franchise. Bring in some folks from the Eagles, Pats, or Ravens and let them do it THEIR way and the combination with the great coaching and actually doing things the RIGHT way personnel wise and they'd be untouchable. However, I'm not confident the Skins have figured this out yet.BTW, Al Saunders = Great Free Agent PickupGibbs isn't even running this team now, Saunders and Williams are. You have to Give Gibbs credit for smartly handing over the reigns.Do you reach all your conclusions before all the evidence is in?In 2003, were you saying the Bengals wasted a pick on Carson Palmer because he was just collecting dust? Anyone who knows Gibbs, knew the route they would take with Campbell. They've stuck to that route and it is foolish to say they wasted picks to get him at this moment.I don't see how that is capable of confusing. I was agreeing with Bloom that they hate wasting time researching the draft when their research results in them wasting 3 draft picks to select a guy like Jason Campbell to gather dust on their bench. They'd obviously prefer to forgo that sort of research and instead use a single draft pick to allow a guy like TJ Duckett to gather dust. HTHHow can you say that? Look at how their research paid off with Jason Campb.... Oh, never mind.
Slinger
Footballguy
NoFBinLA
Moderator
Thank you. I enjoy all accolades.
:X
BigJim®
Footballguy
IMHO, when it appears you will be waiting until 2007 to take the training wheels off a guy you wasted 3 picks to take in 2004, the evidence is in. He wasn't as good as they thought. I have little doubt they would go back in time and use those picks on players who could see the field [and BTW help the team] sometime before 2007. Carson Palmer is a horrible analogy. Cincinnati demoted a QB who was arguably more successful and productive than Brunnell [Kitna] just to get Palmer on the field his sophomore year. The Redskins OTOH brought in Todd Collins to be a game day replacement for Brunnell during Campbell's sophomore year. Bottom line, if the Redskins saw Campbell as a Palmer type difference maker, he would not be languishing behind a so-so starter like Mark Brunnell, unqualified to be a game day replacement, basically interchangeable as a backup with the likes of Todd Collins.Do you reach all your conclusions before all the evidence is in?In 2003, were you saying the Bengals wasted a pick on Carson Palmer because he was just collecting dust? Anyone who knows Gibbs, knew the route they would take with Campbell. They've stuck to that route and it is foolish to say they wasted picks to get him at this moment.I don't see how that is capable of confusing. I was agreeing with Bloom that they hate wasting time researching the draft when their research results in them wasting 3 draft picks to select a guy like Jason Campbell to gather dust on their bench. They'd obviously prefer to forgo that sort of research and instead use a single draft pick to allow a guy like TJ Duckett to gather dust. HTHHow can you say that? Look at how their research paid off with Jason Campb.... Oh, never mind.
redman
Footballguy
There's a lot to disagree with in this thread, but you are clearly uninformed on this.
redman
Footballguy
LOL @ the rigid thinking. The QB needs the most seasoning of any position on the field. QB's have also in recent years played far longer careers - by as many as five to seven years in some cases - than they did before. Campbell is in Washington for the long haul, and they're developing him and by all accounts he's done everything they've asked him to do to learn the position. Gibbs has a long history of letting QB's absorb the game from the sideline for multiple seasons before putting them in, and notably every one of those QB's did well when then finally got their shot.IMHO, when it appears you will be waiting until 2007 to take the training wheels off a guy you wasted 3 picks to take in 2004, the evidence is in. He wasn't as good as they thought. I have little doubt they would go back in time and use those picks on players who could see the field [and BTW help the team] sometime before 2007. Carson Palmer is a horrible analogy. Cincinnati demoted a QB who was arguably more successful and productive than Brunnell [Kitna] just to get Palmer on the field his sophomore year. The Redskins OTOH brought in Todd Collins to be a game day replacement for Brunnell during Campbell's sophomore year. Bottom line, if the Redskins saw Campbell as a Palmer type difference maker, he would not be languishing behind a so-so starter like Mark Brunnell, unqualified to be a game day replacement, basically interchangeable as a backup with the likes of Todd Collins.Do you reach all your conclusions before all the evidence is in?In 2003, were you saying the Bengals wasted a pick on Carson Palmer because he was just collecting dust? Anyone who knows Gibbs, knew the route they would take with Campbell. They've stuck to that route and it is foolish to say they wasted picks to get him at this moment.I don't see how that is capable of confusing. I was agreeing with Bloom that they hate wasting time researching the draft when their research results in them wasting 3 draft picks to select a guy like Jason Campbell to gather dust on their bench. They'd obviously prefer to forgo that sort of research and instead use a single draft pick to allow a guy like TJ Duckett to gather dust. HTHHow can you say that? Look at how their research paid off with Jason Campb.... Oh, never mind.
He's ready to play now in the sense that Phillip Rivers was last year or entering this season - he' can lead the team but he needs some experience on the job and will have some growing pains. This is a team, however, that is capable of getting deep into the playoffs (assuming they can continue to rebound from an 0-2 start) and their best chance to be competitive now is with Brunell, who threw for a career high in TD's last year and presently has a career high QB rating for the season.
What's so hard to understand here?
I still have a sneaking suspicion that they traded up to get D'Qwell Jackson, and had the Browns pull the rug out from under them on this one - their trade up was announced before cleveland's pick was, and then they proceeded to use most of the time allotted for the pick to take McIntosh. Usually when you trade up, you know who you want. I'm not saying this happened, but it wouldn't surprise me with the way they've managed drafts recently, and it's consistent with what happened at the draft.
redman
Footballguy
Example(s)? As for the trade-up not being for McIntosh, we addressed this in a conversation in the IDP Forum a while back:
dgreen
Footballguy
What's the evidence that they overpaid? Peter King? Len Pastabelly? FBGs? It only takes one other team interested in Campbell to drive the price up. You are either saying that nobody else wanted Campbell anywhere near that spot or that he will not be a very good QB. I don't believe we have evidence of either right now.
Welcome to the NFL. No team is loaded with depth at every position.The Skins are insanely deep at RB and WR. They are solid in LB depth. I believe they are decent at QB. I would even argue they have decent depth at DL with the emergence of two rookie DTs, but they could use help at DE. The jury is still out on the OL and DB depth isn't looking too hot right now. If Cooley went down, their TEs wouldn't produce much receiving-wise, but they'd be okay blocking.So, please list all the teams with great depth at numerous positions.
dgreen
Footballguy
Gibbs commented on draft day that they felt they needed to trade up for Rocky when D'Qwell was picked. Just because the trade was announced prior to the D'Qwell pick being announced, doesn't mean Washington thought Jackson would be there. It's possible they were in contact with Jackson about selecting him when Cleveland called. D'Qwell could have told Gibbs he was going to be a Brown, so Gibbs moved up to, like redman says, get the next guy in their LB tier.Or, we could just assume the worst about the Redskins since they have a short, rich owner that people don't like.
redman
Footballguy
One other thing I'd point out in this Redskins Draft Incompetence-Fest 2006: draft picks are notoriously overvalued by teams when it comes to trading young talent.
The Redskins (after much trial and much error) have realized that it's far better to have a still-young but proven player than a draft pick that you hope will get you an equivalent player. The way that the 'Skins have adjusted what they've done in this regard is to simply ensure that the player they're acquiring is young and has his best years in front of him. Coles, Moss, Randle El, Lloyd, Carter, Griffin, Washington, Thomas, Rabach, and yes, Duckett, all fit this profile.
I think they're actually ahead of the curve on this. Many draft picks don't pan out, but few FA's fail to at least approximate the player they have been to date.
The Redskins (after much trial and much error) have realized that it's far better to have a still-young but proven player than a draft pick that you hope will get you an equivalent player. The way that the 'Skins have adjusted what they've done in this regard is to simply ensure that the player they're acquiring is young and has his best years in front of him. Coles, Moss, Randle El, Lloyd, Carter, Griffin, Washington, Thomas, Rabach, and yes, Duckett, all fit this profile.
I think they're actually ahead of the curve on this. Many draft picks don't pan out, but few FA's fail to at least approximate the player they have been to date.
T
trader jake
Guest
Maybe, but it makes more sense to assume that the Redskins traded up to get D'Qwell and were one upped.The most recent example of the Skins bungeling the draft would be the selection of Jason Campbell. Before the draft the Redskins traded up to acquire another 1st round selection (overpaying in a trade w/ Denver). Rumors broke right away courtesy of Lenny P on ESPN that the player they were targeting was Jason Campbell. Everyone inside Redskin Park got pissed and bashed Lenny P.The Redskins do not get great value for their draft selections and are outmanuevered on a regular basis on draft day. It has nothing to do with liking or not liking their owner. Just my 2 cents.
dgreen
Footballguy
And why does that make more sense? I'm not saying it's false, just wondering why that would make more sense.
They were pissed info leaked out of Redskins Park. How does that equate to it being them bungeling the draft? And again, you are saying they overpaid. What's the evidence of that? And, again, I'm not saying they did or didn't overpay. I'm saying we don't know yet.
Since 1999, they've been pretty solid in the first two or three rounds, but haven't hit on any later picks. They realize this and have opted to not put a lot of value in it.What's the most traded thing in the NFL? Draft picks. If they really want a pick, they can get one. They seem to like to trade a pick next year for a pick this year. Why? Because they can always get one back the next year if they really want one.
Maybe not. However, for some reason, people fail to realize that Gibbs has not made the plethera of mistakes Snyder, Cerrato, Norv, and Spurrier made. Gibbs' moves have worked at a pretty good rate.
GRIDIRON ASSASSIN
Footballguy
Daniel Snyder has Jerious Norwood as a late round sleeper in his Scientology Fantasy Football League.
Trading for TJ Duckett removed an obstacle.
Trading for TJ Duckett removed an obstacle.
C
CrossEyed
Guest
I think that was the gist of my original question.
djb916420
Footballguy
i was trying to get back on topic
BigJim®
Footballguy
Wasted draft picks are what's hard to understand. I fully comprehend theLOL @ the rigid thinking. The QB needs the most seasoning of any position on the field. QB's have also in recent years played far longer careers - by as many as five to seven years in some cases - than they did before. Campbell is in Washington for the long haul, and they're developing him and by all accounts he's done everything they've asked him to do to learn the position. Gibbs has a long history of letting QB's absorb the game from the sideline for multiple seasons before putting them in, and notably every one of those QB's did well when then finally got their shot.IMHO, when it appears you will be waiting until 2007 to take the training wheels off a guy you wasted 3 picks to take in 2004, the evidence is in. He wasn't as good as they thought. I have little doubt they would go back in time and use those picks on players who could see the field [and BTW help the team] sometime before 2007. Carson Palmer is a horrible analogy. Cincinnati demoted a QB who was arguably more successful and productive than Brunnell [Kitna] just to get Palmer on the field his sophomore year. The Redskins OTOH brought in Todd Collins to be a game day replacement for Brunnell during Campbell's sophomore year. Bottom line, if the Redskins saw Campbell as a Palmer type difference maker, he would not be languishing behind a so-so starter like Mark Brunnell, unqualified to be a game day replacement, basically interchangeable as a backup with the likes of Todd Collins.Do you reach all your conclusions before all the evidence is in?In 2003, were you saying the Bengals wasted a pick on Carson Palmer because he was just collecting dust? Anyone who knows Gibbs, knew the route they would take with Campbell. They've stuck to that route and it is foolish to say they wasted picks to get him at this moment.I don't see how that is capable of confusing. I was agreeing with Bloom that they hate wasting time researching the draft when their research results in them wasting 3 draft picks to select a guy like Jason Campbell to gather dust on their bench. They'd obviously prefer to forgo that sort of research and instead use a single draft pick to allow a guy like TJ Duckett to gather dust. HTHHow can you say that? Look at how their research paid off with Jason Campb.... Oh, never mind.
He's ready to play now in the sense that Phillip Rivers was last year or entering this season - he' can lead the team but he needs some experience on the job and will have some growing pains. This is a team, however, that is capable of getting deep into the playoffs (assuming they can continue to rebound from an 0-2 start) and their best chance to be competitive now is with Brunell, who threw for a career high in TD's last year and presently has a career high QB rating for the season.
What's so hard to understand here?
"He's done everything they've asked of him" spin. Of course he has, because the team has asked absolutely nothing of him. Or more aptly put, hasn't trusted him to tie his own shoes with anything on the line. I'm also not buying the seasoned vet angle. Plenty of young QBs are learning the ropes faster than Campbell, and leading their teams to wins. Guys can either play football at this level or they can't, and it's no different for guys being coached by Joe Gibbs. The bottom line for me is I just can't imagine Campbell reaching the success he'd need to reach to justify his draft pick(s), when he can't even bypass Todd Collins as Mr. gameday replacement 18 months in. I mean in all seriousness, how many QBs in the NFL do you have Todd Collins forcing to the bench... Campbell and Cody Pickett? I listed Campbell as one of my buy-low sleepers heading into this season based on end of year quotes from Gibbs last season (i.e. joking how it was time for Campbell to start earning his money). But now to me he's the most likely "young high drafted QB" to never become an NFL starter at all. Little to zero buzz about him from his own team, zero fanbase pushing for him to play, a franchise with seemingly no tolerance for losing for the sake of development means the shortest leash when/if he ever does start. Ramsey anyone? Nope. To me this franchise is made for the Brunell's of the world.actually, Gibbs has been clear, if Brunell gets injured or benched due to bad play, Campbell would be the starter. If Brunell is injured during a game, Collins would finish it, but the next week, and the future, would belong to Campbell. So to say he can't pass Collins on the depth chart is wrong. Collins simply knows the offense better but doesn't have 1/10 the physical tools Jason does.
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