Tom Brady - Randy Moss = Eli Manning (1 Viewer)

[shortbow]

There might not be any position in all of sports whose value is more overrated than that of the wide receiver.

I totally disagree. If anything, I think they are underrated.

I'll bite. Consider everything that has to go right before a WR is even in a position to influence a play. I can't imagine that there is any other position that is more reliant on other people for their individual success than a WR.

RBs rely 100% on their O-Line, thats 4-5 more people than a WR relies on (quarterback)...

Those WRs need the O-line to be able to protect the QB long enough to get separation. I can also think of some backs who frequently made something (yardage) out of nothing (poor blocking). Barry Sanders springs to mind.

The argument itself is dumb, but WRs are undervalued, next year when there wont be a single team not running a RBBC get back to me.

 

[Polar Dude]

The argument itself is dumb, but WRs are undervalued, next year when there wont be a single team not running a RBBC get back to me.

Huh? How does the current use of RBs prove or disprove the value of a WR?

 

[thekidd2009]

Lets not forget that Matt Cassel stepped into that offense without starting a game since highschool and put up 3700 and 21td's. He had Moss, but if Cassel can put up those kind of numbers in his first year starting since highschool, then i'm not worried in the least if I owned Brady. With all the doom and gloom about Brady's prospects going foward, i'm gonna try and make a move for him.

 

[shortbow]

The argument itself is dumb, but WRs are undervalued, next year when there wont be a single team not running a RBBC get back to me.

Huh? How does the current use of RBs prove or disprove the value of a WR?

Because WRs will sustain their current value and people will give it its proper recognition now that RBs wont be one man work horses. If you threw to any WR 12 times a game they would be putting up top 10 numbers (all fantasy)

 

[Polar Dude]

(all fantasy)

I think we're discussing two different things.

 

[CaptainHook]

contrary to public opinion, brady is the one whose level of play has dropped off. NOT moss.

If he's on your team start looking for plan B ASAP

 

[shortbow]

(all fantasy)

I think we're discussing two different things.

I meant comparably to all positions. You rarely see all players regardless of position measured next to each other, fantasy gives them a forum to be measured side by side.

 

[Go deep]

Lets not forget that Matt Cassel stepped into that offense without starting a game since highschool and put up 3700 and 21td's. He had Moss, but if Cassel can put up those kind of numbers in his first year starting since highschool, then i'm not worried in the least if I owned Brady. With all the doom and gloom about Brady's prospects going foward, i'm gonna try and make a move for him.

Exactly, thats why he was able to put up those numbers. Any QB could put up good numbers wth Moss at WR, assuming Moss is healthy and happy.

 

[Neofight]

The system they run has been built around Manning, but to claim it isn't a system that leads to great passing stats is a bit convoluted.

Every offense is a "system" to a degree, so I'm not sure how you are using that term. The Colts system is not a system like the Pats system, where the QB is almost interchangeable (see Cassell in NE, or Orton in DEN). The Colts depend on Manning to change a lot of plays at the LOS based on the defense. We're not talking about audibles, we are talking about being given a few plays and then Manning choosing which to run, and at times he audibles out of that. Sorgi or Painter would have nowhere near the success Manning has, because the Colts offense is not built to hide QB deficiencies by focusing on short routes and "clips".Manning puts up great stats because he is a great QB, and would be great in pretty much any offensive system. Put any other QB on the Colts offense and they would not be putting up great stats. So, no, the Colts "system" is not a system that leads to great passing stats. We've seen other QBs come in for Manning at times, and they stink.

Have you heard of Tom Moore? It's his system, and every team has one; if an offensive coordinator did not have a system, he wouldn't be getting a paycheck for very long. The Colts new OC still runs it, because it focuses on Peyton's strengths and Peyton runs it very well. It has had the criticism that when Peyton stands at the line changing the play it makes it harder for the linemen to fire out for their run blocking assignments if he has changed from a pass play, where they would move to the side or backward. That may or may not be true, but I think it depends on the lineman and the particular play being checked.The fact that there are zero teams besides the Colts that call their plays (from a preselected few) at the line is my point though. Given that their rushing attack has been abysmal the last few years, Manning is more prone to call his own number. His checks at the line allow him to avoid the blitz before the play even begins. It is only when he guesses wrong that he reminds me of one of my favorite Paolo Conte tunes. But I am not criticizing Manning at all, just stating that given the system he is in and his freedom, he is more prone to call passing plays a majority of the time; the stats bear this out. I'm sure you know all this and were just concerned that I was belittling Manning, which I am not. At the same time I don't think that his play calling at the line makes him any more or less replaceable than any of the other great QB's currently in the league. Once upon a time most QB's were making these types of calls at the line, most recently the great Jim Kelly.

 

[Road Warriors]

Lets not forget that Matt Cassel stepped into that offense without starting a game since highschool and put up 3700 and 21td's. He had Moss, but if Cassel can put up those kind of numbers in his first year starting since highschool, then i'm not worried in the least if I owned Brady. With all the doom and gloom about Brady's prospects going foward, i'm gonna try and make a move for him.

Exactly, thats why he was able to put up those numbers. Any QB could put up good numbers wth Moss at WR, assuming Moss is healthy and happy.

Of course, you could look at 2007 & 2008 and see the only difference between the offenses of those 2 years was the QB. Brady put up 4700/50 with that cast. Cassel put up 3500/21. And led an offense that scored 160 fewer points. It wasn't all Moss.

 

[shortbow]

Lets not forget that Matt Cassel stepped into that offense without starting a game since highschool and put up 3700 and 21td's. He had Moss, but if Cassel can put up those kind of numbers in his first year starting since highschool, then i'm not worried in the least if I owned Brady. With all the doom and gloom about Brady's prospects going foward, i'm gonna try and make a move for him.

Exactly, thats why he was able to put up those numbers. Any QB could put up good numbers wth Moss at WR, assuming Moss is healthy and happy.

Moss had a hand in it but I think Belichick had a bigger role in Cassels success.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

I'm not sure what Eli is doing this year, or why the OP used Eli as the comparison.

But anyone who thinks taking Moss out of the picture is not going to somewhat negatively affect Brady's STATS is kidding themselves.

Moss is responsible for 20% of Brady's yardage and 33% of his TDs this year. And that's with Brady basically not using him at all in Week 4.

How much of an impact really depends on Tate and Hernandez.

From an FF perspective, Brady take a hit with the loss of Moss, no one can really honestly argue that. But I'm not surprised that some are trying to.

Not sure where you get that math. Moss has 139 receiving yards this season. Brady has 911 yards passing. Turns out that's only 15%.Between 07 and 09 (two years they played together), Moss accounted for 30% of Brady's passing yards. Even with the drop-off in production from Moss, Brady is still hitting top flight numbers for completion percentage (69.7%) and YPA (7.5).

I do agree on the TD part. It would be surprising to me if Brady didn't regress some in the TD department , with or without Moss. His current rate of 1 TD per every 13.5 attempts is second in the league (behind Sanchez) and better than his career of average of 1 TD per every 18.5 attempts. Law of averages says that will normalize over 16 games.

The bottom line is that Brady isn't going to put up gaudy yardage stats if he's in the bottom half of the league in attempts. If he throws it 480 times, expect 3600/25 numbers; if he throw it 550 times, expect 4000/30.

Look at Aaron Rodgers; he's on pace for 3700 yards passing; why? Because like Brady, he's only thrown the ball 122 times in four games.

Contrary to the OPs prediction that Brady - Moss = Eli, the reality is more like Brady - Attempts (regardless of Moss) = Eli.

This Pats D blows. Henne made em look magical (as did that no one would block chung) but even he was moving the ball on them almost at will. Point is that in the past the pats d was pretty decent, and thus Brady didn't have to score so much to win. Now he does. If it doesn't come from special teams magick and pix sixes, odds are its coming from Brady elevating his game. Ypu really wanna bet against this guy again?

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

FTR Brady this year is 16th in ATT, 18th in yardage. Losing Moss is not going to up his YPA, but likely will drop it even more. He's 10th in YPA currently.

and he truly only played one half of offensive football vs Miami.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

Not going to bother reading all the replies. No, Brady is not a top 3-5 QB without Moss. I'll agree on that. But average like Eli? Maybe a top 15-17 QB like Eli? Uhhh no.

Even the math produced shows he is better than Eli. Keep in mind that the numbers Brady put up before Moss came also meant he was without Welker, who is HUGE.

I do think his numbers will drop, and he'll be back to the 25-28 range, but that's still pretty solid. And that's if no one steps up to fill Moss' role (like Tate, Edelman, or someone

else).

well then thanks for blessing us with your opinion nostradamus.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

contrary to public opinion, brady is the one whose level of play has dropped off. NOT moss. If he's on your team start looking for plan B ASAP

 

[switz]

The system they run has been built around Manning, but to claim it isn't a system that leads to great passing stats is a bit convoluted.

Every offense is a "system" to a degree, so I'm not sure how you are using that term. The Colts system is not a system like the Pats system, where the QB is almost interchangeable (see Cassell in NE, or Orton in DEN). The Colts depend on Manning to change a lot of plays at the LOS based on the defense. We're not talking about audibles, we are talking about being given a few plays and then Manning choosing which to run, and at times he audibles out of that. Sorgi or Painter would have nowhere near the success Manning has, because the Colts offense is not built to hide QB deficiencies by focusing on short routes and "clips".Manning puts up great stats because he is a great QB, and would be great in pretty much any offensive system. Put any other QB on the Colts offense and they would not be putting up great stats. So, no, the Colts "system" is not a system that leads to great passing stats. We've seen other QBs come in for Manning at times, and they stink.

Have you heard of Tom Moore? It's his system, and every team has one; if an offensive coordinator did not have a system, he wouldn't be getting a paycheck for very long. The Colts new OC still runs it, because it focuses on Peyton's strengths and Peyton runs it very well. It has had the criticism that when Peyton stands at the line changing the play it makes it harder for the linemen to fire out for their run blocking assignments if he has changed from a pass play, where they would move to the side or backward. That may or may not be true, but I think it depends on the lineman and the particular play being checked.The fact that there are zero teams besides the Colts that call their plays (from a preselected few) at the line is my point though. Given that their rushing attack has been abysmal the last few years, Manning is more prone to call his own number. His checks at the line allow him to avoid the blitz before the play even begins. It is only when he guesses wrong that he reminds me of one of my favorite Paolo Conte tunes. But I am not criticizing Manning at all, just stating that given the system he is in and his freedom, he is more prone to call passing plays a majority of the time; the stats bear this out. I'm sure you know all this and were just concerned that I was belittling Manning, which I am not. At the same time I don't think that his play calling at the line makes him any more or less replaceable than any of the other great QB's currently in the league. Once upon a time most QB's were making these types of calls at the line, most recently the great Jim Kelly.

I was just clarifying that while the Pats system is QB friendly in that almost any QB can be successful in it, the Colts system requires a QB like Manning for it to work. Cassell, by all accounts a crappy QB did well on the Pats. Sorgi and Painter have sucked trying to fill Peyton's shoes.However, does Peyton get more attempts because he calls his own plays, for sure. Can a lot of QBs do it, or have a lot of QBs done it on a regular basis? Not really. You cited Jim Kelly, but that's about it for the last 25 years.

 

[switz]

FTR Brady this year is 16th in ATT, 18th in yardage. Losing Moss is not going to up his YPA, but likely will drop it even more. He's 10th in YPA currently.

and he truly only played one half of offensive football vs Miami.

That's one half more than 4 other QBs, some of which still rank higher than him.

 

[Road Warriors]

The system they run has been built around Manning, but to claim it isn't a system that leads to great passing stats is a bit convoluted.

Every offense is a "system" to a degree, so I'm not sure how you are using that term. The Colts system is not a system like the Pats system, where the QB is almost interchangeable (see Cassell in NE, or Orton in DEN). The Colts depend on Manning to change a lot of plays at the LOS based on the defense. We're not talking about audibles, we are talking about being given a few plays and then Manning choosing which to run, and at times he audibles out of that. Sorgi or Painter would have nowhere near the success Manning has, because the Colts offense is not built to hide QB deficiencies by focusing on short routes and "clips".Manning puts up great stats because he is a great QB, and would be great in pretty much any offensive system. Put any other QB on the Colts offense and they would not be putting up great stats. So, no, the Colts "system" is not a system that leads to great passing stats. We've seen other QBs come in for Manning at times, and they stink.

Have you heard of Tom Moore? It's his system, and every team has one; if an offensive coordinator did not have a system, he wouldn't be getting a paycheck for very long. The Colts new OC still runs it, because it focuses on Peyton's strengths and Peyton runs it very well. It has had the criticism that when Peyton stands at the line changing the play it makes it harder for the linemen to fire out for their run blocking assignments if he has changed from a pass play, where they would move to the side or backward. That may or may not be true, but I think it depends on the lineman and the particular play being checked.The fact that there are zero teams besides the Colts that call their plays (from a preselected few) at the line is my point though. Given that their rushing attack has been abysmal the last few years, Manning is more prone to call his own number. His checks at the line allow him to avoid the blitz before the play even begins. It is only when he guesses wrong that he reminds me of one of my favorite Paolo Conte tunes. But I am not criticizing Manning at all, just stating that given the system he is in and his freedom, he is more prone to call passing plays a majority of the time; the stats bear this out. I'm sure you know all this and were just concerned that I was belittling Manning, which I am not. At the same time I don't think that his play calling at the line makes him any more or less replaceable than any of the other great QB's currently in the league. Once upon a time most QB's were making these types of calls at the line, most recently the great Jim Kelly.

I was just clarifying that while the Pats system is QB friendly in that almost any QB can be successful in it, the Colts system requires a QB like Manning for it to work. Cassell, by all accounts a crappy QB did well on the Pats. Sorgi and Painter have sucked trying to fill Peyton's shoes.However, does Peyton get more attempts because he calls his own plays, for sure. Can a lot of QBs do it, or have a lot of QBs done it on a regular basis? Not really. You cited Jim Kelly, but that's about it for the last 25 years.

Cassel is an average to below average NFL starting QB. Given a great line and great receivers, he was successful. The system, as you put it, is as good as the players available. Early on, Cassel struggled, even with all that talent surrounding him. He got better as the season went on and he got more comfortable.Sorgi and Painter are average NFL backups. Neither one has garnered much interest from the other 31 NFL teams. And neither has had a full season to work with the Colts offense and gain a rythym. In fact, Sorgi has played in 16 games, but thrown more than 5 passes in only 5 of those. Add the fact that 4 of those 5 games where he had >5 attempts were week 16 games where the Colts were sitting their starters. It'd be interesting to see what would happen over a full season with a non-Manning led Colts offense ( not wishing ill on Peyton ) given the solid array of talent Manning has to work with. I'm guessing it wouldn't be too far off what you saw from NE & Cassel in 2008, in terms of offensive production.

 

[David Yudkin]

contrary to public opinion, brady is the one whose level of play has dropped off. NOT moss. If he's on your team start looking for plan B ASAP

OK, I'll bite. Brady has done just as well as Drew Brees through 4 games. Both are tied as the QB6. Should people be looking to dump Brees too?I think initially the Pats may have some issues passing without Moss, but I still see Brady in the QB6-8 range on the season without Moss. How the Pats get the ball in the end zone (run vs. pass) will determin how high Brady will rank this year. If they pass a lot more than run (they have usually had a lot of rushing TD), the loss of Moss may be less than some would think.A bigger issue will be the defense. The defense has been allowing some very long drives which when combined with the special teams play has cost the offense a lot of snaps. If that continues, that will also serve to repress the passing numbers.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

FTR Brady this year is 16th in ATT, 18th in yardage. Losing Moss is not going to up his YPA, but likely will drop it even more. He's 10th in YPA currently.

and he truly only played one half of offensive football vs Miami.

That's one half more than 4 other QBs, some of which still rank higher than him.

they all can't be mike vick...then again thats why vicks on the shelf.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

contrary to public opinion, brady is the one whose level of play has dropped off. NOT moss. If he's on your team start looking for plan B ASAP

OK, I'll bite. Brady has done just as well as Drew Brees through 4 games. Both are tied as the QB6. Should people be looking to dump Brees too?I think initially the Pats may have some issues passing without Moss, but I still see Brady in the QB6-8 range on the season without Moss. How the Pats get the ball in the end zone (run vs. pass) will determin how high Brady will rank this year. If they pass a lot more than run (they have usually had a lot of rushing TD), the loss of Moss may be less than some would think.A bigger issue will be the defense. The defense has been allowing some very long drives which when combined with the special teams play has cost the offense a lot of snaps. If that continues, that will also serve to repress the passing numbers.

so you are saying us Brady owners season may hinge on whether the pats stop sucking so slow, just flat out suck already!

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I think Brady has now shown that he is an elite QB and that while Moss surely helped him when Moss was on his game, Brady laso had a pretty big role in Moss' success.

 

[mcdons3]

Or, even more likely, Bill Belichick knows how to get the most out of his personnel, no matter who it is.

 

[ponchsox]

Where is Ben now?

 

[Jason Wood]

Brady w/ Moss in '10 = 228 yards/2.25TDs/0.5Ints/7.5YPA

Brady w/o Moss in '10 = 265 yards/2.25TDs/0.25Ints/8.1YPA

 

[mcdons3]

Brady w/ Moss in '10 = 228 yards/2.25TDs/0.5Ints/7.5YPABrady w/o Moss in '10 = 265 yards/2.25TDs/0.25Ints/8.1YPA

And, not to beat a dead horse, but for the sake of the original discussion:Eli Manning in '10 = 249 yards/1.92TDs/1.42Ints/7.4YPA

 

[Jason Wood]

Brady w/ Moss in '10 = 228 yards/2.25TDs/0.5Ints/7.5YPABrady w/o Moss in '10 = 265 yards/2.25TDs/0.25Ints/8.1YPA

And, not to beat a dead horse, but for the sake of the original discussion:Eli Manning in '10 = 249 yards/1.92TDs/1.42Ints/7.4YPA

I'm not sure the point the Eli comparison is meant to have but you realize that Eli's line pales in comparison to Brady's right? That 1.2 more INTs per game is a massive differential in performance and value. But further extending the point...Eli Manning has grown as a passer over his career. The caretaker in his early years has given way to a good, but not great, passer.

 

[road warrior]

This is great stuff. Thanks for the bump. Needed the laugh.

Even the shark pool gets their share of knee jerk reactions. Oh well, at least they are entertaining.

 

[Ghost Rider]

It's more like:

Randy Moss - Tom Brady = Sam Hurd

 

[Kitrick Taylor]

Randy Moss this year:

5/59/0

2/38/1

2/42/2

0/0/0

No way Tate can put up those kind of numbers right?

Now obviously losing Moss isn't going to help Brady. However, are Brady's weapons now really any different than what Kyle Orton has to work with? Orton is probably a good comparison, since they run the same offense now in Denver. (In case anybody hadn't noticed Orton is currently 3rd among fantasy QBs to date.)

I guess I just see Brady spreading the ball around a ton. All of his WRs and TEs and pass catching RBs will get a boost. There's tons of good to decent options for him to throw to, and I don't think losing Moss necessarily means Brady becomes average. Is it possible? Sure. Probable? Not so sure.

Teams can't double everyone. So they decide to double Welker on a given week. Don't you think Brady will just find the open man and hit him? I sure do.

I think the thing the OP is missing here is the fact that Brady is just really good.

The only question for me really is, the Patriots will most likely lose some of their most explosive plays now. So will they be able to still make those drives into TDs? Moss made 6 catches of 40 yards or more a year ago. Can someone step up and make that happen this year?

Is Tate going to draw a teams best corner and a safety?

Does he have to for Brady to be successful? Whose consistently drawing the double team in Denver?

What does Denver have to do with anything?

Sorry for the bump, but sometimes when you are right you just have to do it

Brady #2

Orton #6

 

[Neofight]

The system they run has been built around Manning, but to claim it isn't a system that leads to great passing stats is a bit convoluted.

Every offense is a "system" to a degree, so I'm not sure how you are using that term. The Colts system is not a system like the Pats system, where the QB is almost interchangeable (see Cassell in NE, or Orton in DEN). The Colts depend on Manning to change a lot of plays at the LOS based on the defense. We're not talking about audibles, we are talking about being given a few plays and then Manning choosing which to run, and at times he audibles out of that. Sorgi or Painter would have nowhere near the success Manning has, because the Colts offense is not built to hide QB deficiencies by focusing on short routes and "clips".Manning puts up great stats because he is a great QB, and would be great in pretty much any offensive system. Put any other QB on the Colts offense and they would not be putting up great stats. So, no, the Colts "system" is not a system that leads to great passing stats. We've seen other QBs come in for Manning at times, and they stink.

Have you heard of Tom Moore? It's his system, and every team has one; if an offensive coordinator did not have a system, he wouldn't be getting a paycheck for very long. The Colts new OC still runs it, because it focuses on Peyton's strengths and Peyton runs it very well. It has had the criticism that when Peyton stands at the line changing the play it makes it harder for the linemen to fire out for their run blocking assignments if he has changed from a pass play, where they would move to the side or backward. That may or may not be true, but I think it depends on the lineman and the particular play being checked.The fact that there are zero teams besides the Colts that call their plays (from a preselected few) at the line is my point though. Given that their rushing attack has been abysmal the last few years, Manning is more prone to call his own number. His checks at the line allow him to avoid the blitz before the play even begins. It is only when he guesses wrong that he reminds me of one of my favorite Paolo Conte tunes. But I am not criticizing Manning at all, just stating that given the system he is in and his freedom, he is more prone to call passing plays a majority of the time; the stats bear this out. I'm sure you know all this and were just concerned that I was belittling Manning, which I am not. At the same time I don't think that his play calling at the line makes him any more or less replaceable than any of the other great QB's currently in the league. Once upon a time most QB's were making these types of calls at the line, most recently the great Jim Kelly.

I was just clarifying that while the Pats system is QB friendly in that almost any QB can be successful in it, the Colts system requires a QB like Manning for it to work. Cassell, by all accounts a crappy QB did well on the Pats. Sorgi and Painter have sucked trying to fill Peyton's shoes.However, does Peyton get more attempts because he calls his own plays, for sure. Can a lot of QBs do it, or have a lot of QBs done it on a regular basis? Not really. You cited Jim Kelly, but that's about it for the last 25 years.

Wrongness comes in many forms.

 

[mcdons3]

Brady w/ Moss in '10 = 228 yards/2.25TDs/0.5Ints/7.5YPABrady w/o Moss in '10 = 265 yards/2.25TDs/0.25Ints/8.1YPA

And, not to beat a dead horse, but for the sake of the original discussion:Eli Manning in '10 = 249 yards/1.92TDs/1.42Ints/7.4YPA

I'm not sure the point the Eli comparison is meant to have but you realize that Eli's line pales in comparison to Brady's right? That 1.2 more INTs per game is a massive differential in performance and value. But further extending the point...Eli Manning has grown as a passer over his career. The caretaker in his early years has given way to a good, but not great, passer.

Yes. Eli's line is entirely worse than Brady's. I'm not sure why you thought I saw anything different. There's literally no way to look at Eli's numbers this year and skew them as better than Brady's. The point was that that was what this thread was initially about. See the title?

 

[rabidfireweasel]

I was just clarifying that while the Pats system is QB friendly in that almost any QB can be successful in it, the Colts system requires a QB like Manning for it to work. Cassell, by all accounts a crappy QB did well on the Pats. Sorgi and Painter have sucked trying to fill Peyton's shoes.

This is poor logic. Sorgi has simply moved on to another back-up job. Painter will be another clip board holder. Cassel is a starting NFL QB on a team leading his division. He has 23 TD's and only 4 INT's for the year.

 

[Dought Man]

Take away Moss from Brady and he becomes league MVP.

Take away Brady from Moss and he becomes a Nate Washington clone on the field who yells at catering staff in his spare time.

 

[Raider Nation]

 

[Philo]

We're witnessing the "last gasp" outburst of Tom's career, every vet goes through that one half-season where you think they're 22 again, only to crash and burn on the other side of it. Favre's had it happen more than once.

Tom owners should deal him now, I don't think he finishes in the top 20 of QBs next season.

 

[tombonneau]

We're witnessing the "last gasp" outburst of Tom's career, every vet goes through that one half-season where you think they're 22 again, only to crash and burn on the other side of it. Favre's had it happen more than once. Tom owners should deal him now, I don't think he finishes in the top 20 of QBs next season.

You realize he is only 33?

 

[Go deep]

Ill eat my crow, i was wrong about Tom Brady. I still dont think he belongs in the Peyton, Rodgers, Rivers, etc tier, but is definitely in the 2nd tier.

 

[Neofight]

We're witnessing the "last gasp" outburst of Tom's career, every vet goes through that one half-season where you think they're 22 again, only to crash and burn on the other side of it. Favre's had it happen more than once. Tom owners should deal him now, I don't think he finishes in the top 20 of QBs next season.

:burp:Tasty!

 

[Hellfire Snail]

Ill eat my crow, i was wrong about Tom Brady. I still dont think he belongs in the Peyton, Rodgers, Rivers, etc tier, but is definitely in the 2nd tier.

Eaaasy now. Don't be too hasty...the second tier is pretty high up there.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Some classics in this thread

Go Deep

Any qb can put up good numbers with Moss

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&p=12397245

Switz, -

" The Colts system is not a system like the Pats system, where the QB is almost interchangeable" ...

.

.

"So, no, the Colts "system" is not a system that leads to great passing stats."..........

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&p=12395207

Captain Hook - Who "obviously" wears the same kind of Glasses as Switz

"contrary to public opinion, brady is the one whose level of play has dropped off. NOT moss.

If he's on your team start looking for plan B ASAP"

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&p=12396654

I am not even including any of the many posts by the OP (Ben); great stuff......

 

[Green and Gold]

Ill eat my crow, i was wrong about Tom Brady. I still dont think he belongs in the Peyton, Rodgers, Rivers, etc tier, but is definitely in the 2nd tier.

You think Brady is 2nd tier? Here are those 4 QBs stats so far this year. Which one looks like they should be in the 2nd tier?Comp % Yards TDs INTs QB rating66.8 3398 29 4 109.966.1 3868 26 11 103.165.4 3289 23 10 98.566.4 4028 26 15 91.2

 

[Go deep]

Ill eat my crow, i was wrong about Tom Brady. I still dont think he belongs in the Peyton, Rodgers, Rivers, etc tier, but is definitely in the 2nd tier.

You think Brady is 2nd tier? Here are those 4 QBs stats so far this year. Which one looks like they should be in the 2nd tier?Comp % Yards TDs INTs QB rating66.8 3398 29 4 109.966.1 3868 26 11 103.165.4 3289 23 10 98.566.4 4028 26 15 91.2

I have Brady in the 2nd tier going forward.

 

[kyoun1e]

Ill eat my crow, i was wrong about Tom Brady. I still dont think he belongs in the Peyton, Rodgers, Rivers, etc tier, but is definitely in the 2nd tier.

You apparently need to have a second helping of crow.KY

 

[Kitrick Taylor]

Ill eat my crow, i was wrong about Tom Brady. I still dont think he belongs in the Peyton, Rodgers, Rivers, etc tier, but is definitely in the 2nd tier.

Nice of you to eat crow, but I'm still not sure you've had a full serving Fantasy points last 5 years and place finish (standard FBG scoring):2010 to date:Brady 315/1Rodgers 314/2Rivers 306/3Manning 301/4Brees 297/52009: Rodgers 418/1Brees 382/2Manning 357/5Rivers 346/7Brady 344/82008:Brees 389/1Rodgers 361/2Rivers 357/3Manning 319/6Brady DNP2007:Brady 496/1Manning 347/3Brees 338/4Rivers 242/15Rodgers DNP2006:Manning 384/1Brees 332/2Brady 283/7Rivers 266/8Rodgers DNPAverageRodgers: 364Brady: 360Brees: 348Manning: 342Rivers: 304Obviously this is not a fair comparison for Rivers. He's obviously in the same company as the others, as his average numbers are skewed by his totals while he developed as a QB. I also think that anything less than about a 16 point difference (1ppg) in a yearly total is trivial. i.e. this years top 5 are all basically statistically equal, just as Manning, Rivers and Brady were basically the same player in 2009. Even if you want to discount Brady's 496 point season, here's the totals for 2009 & 2010 to date:Rodgers 732Brees 679Brady 659Manning 658Rivers 652So over the last 33 NFL games, Brees, Brady, Manning and Rivers have been within 1ppg of each other. Now why exactly is Brady in a tier below them?

 

[Raider Nation]

"Fantasy math for you" is my favorite part.

 

[thehornet]

Lets don't forget that before Moss came to New England, Tom Brady was Eli Manningish with 3500 yards and 25 TD's. The Patriot's won Super Bowls without Brady having gaudy stats. He was NEVER outstanding. He was solidly average. His highest TD total was 28. his highest yards were 4110 in 2005, but every other year he was at 3500. Then when Moss came he blew up for 50 TD's and 4800 yards. WHY? Moss has that affect. See Daunte Culpepper. Brady is now once again solidly average. He is a clone of Eli, but in all fairness Eli actually has much better weapons around him. Brady has a 2nd year receiver, a couple young TE's, a couple slot receivers, and no great run game at all. Brady is once again a solidly average QB. No more gaudy stats. Welcome back average Tom "Eli Manningish" Brady.

NICE ONE!!!

 

[thehornet]

Ill eat my crow, i was wrong about Tom Brady. I still dont think he belongs in the Peyton, Rodgers, Rivers, etc tier, but is definitely in the 2nd tier.

You think Brady is 2nd tier? Here are those 4 QBs stats so far this year. Which one looks like they should be in the 2nd tier?Comp % Yards TDs INTs QB rating66.8 3398 29 4 109.966.1 3868 26 11 103.165.4 3289 23 10 98.566.4 4028 26 15 91.2

I have Brady in the 2nd tier going forward.

2nd tier of what??? All time great QB's?

 

[thehornet]

We're witnessing the "last gasp" outburst of Tom's career, every vet goes through that one half-season where you think they're 22 again, only to crash and burn on the other side of it. Favre's had it happen more than once. Tom owners should deal him now, I don't think he finishes in the top 20 of QBs next season.

oh man, this is classic. oh also, most 22 yr old QB's are either just finishing college or carrying a clipboard. good call on that though.

 

[Go deep]

Ill eat my crow, i was wrong about Tom Brady. I still dont think he belongs in the Peyton, Rodgers, Rivers, etc tier, but is definitely in the 2nd tier.

You think Brady is 2nd tier? Here are those 4 QBs stats so far this year. Which one looks like they should be in the 2nd tier?Comp % Yards TDs INTs QB rating66.8 3398 29 4 109.966.1 3868 26 11 103.165.4 3289 23 10 98.566.4 4028 26 15 91.2

I have Brady in the 2nd tier going forward.

2nd tier of what??? All time great QB's?

That too.