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Top 5 O-lines (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Gachi
- Start date
The Jacket
Footballguy
That is a God-awful list. Patriots? Colts?? Cardinals???
Try Denver among others.
Try Denver among others.
Inspiration
Footballguy
Interesting. I disagree with some of your selections; I don't think Arizona's line is worthy of even a top-10 consideration.
In no particular order, I would probably go with Tennessee, Denver, New York Giants, New England, and Carolina.
In no particular order, I would probably go with Tennessee, Denver, New York Giants, New England, and Carolina.
Colts fan here.The Colts definitely didn't have the 2nd best line in 2008. Their run blocking was probably among the worst actually. Of course, the line was decimated by injuries and the Colts had to start three rookies for a lot of the season.I think the biggest hint that their run blocking was horrendous last year (besides Addai getting hit in the backfield a lot) was that the team would usually pass on 3rd and inches.They've never had a great run blocking line and I think their pass blocking has been a bit overrated because of Manning's ability to get the ball out quickly.I've also read the Cardinals are pretty bad at run blocking. Not sure about the other teams.
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simmonjm
Footballguy
Wow talk about being a homer. I realize that Philly has the potential to be elite but they have yet to play a down together. Add in the fact that a number of starters have question marks i.e. Peters allowing a high number of sacks last year, Stacy Andews coming off a significant injury, and Shawn Andrews dealing with depression and injuries I dont see how you could rank them as the best in football.
Ridiculous if you don't put the Titans on there.Whatever stat you use to grade an o-line, rush yards, sacks allowed, pro bowl nods, etc the Titans line was fantastic in 2008
sho nuff
Footballguy
and missing the Titans too.Vikings line is great run blocking...check out their sacks allowed though. IMO that pushes them out of the top 5.Especially with Birk gone and possibly starting a rook at RT (even as talented as the Load may be).
Balco
Footballguy
If Loadholt doesn't improve his technique tremendously, he is going to get abused by speed rushers. Guy has very slow feet and is slow out of his stance.
Titans-Giants I'm neither here nor there on. Why would you put Denver or Carolina above the Titans?
Chairshot
Footballguy
Obviously I'm a Giants homer but they have to be up there.
There may be more talented lines in the league, but there aren't many that are as cohesive. Though I will say they are probably a little over rated on pass blocking, they are also probably under rated on their run blocking. People don't realize how much of Jacobs/Wards success last year was due to the line play. They are the reason Ahmad Bradshaw or Danny Ware will have a legit fantasy year.
There may be more talented lines in the league, but there aren't many that are as cohesive. Though I will say they are probably a little over rated on pass blocking, they are also probably under rated on their run blocking. People don't realize how much of Jacobs/Wards success last year was due to the line play. They are the reason Ahmad Bradshaw or Danny Ware will have a legit fantasy year.
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I'd vote close to it, may be there in 2009
KingAlfred
Footballguy
Have to agree. Great run blocking line but pass blocking can be inconsistent. Remember, Gus nearly got killed last year. It's why I think a mobile QB works best with the Vikings, such as S. Rosenfels. If they decide to put an immobile near 40 year old back there this year I suggest they keep the stretcher close.
Neither do I, and I'm a homer too. Philly has the potential to be a top five unit, and I expect a top ten unit, but a #1 ranking at this point is absurd.There seem to be plenty of pretty good o-lines in the NFL at the moment so narrowing it down to a top-5 is tough.
I'd say:
1. Eagles, they were solid last year and only got better. Peters may have given up a higher sack count, but he's the best run-blocking OT in the NFL, also most of his sacks are due to having to cover for Dockery who was awfu(and cut)l last year. If Shawn Andrews is back to form than its a sizable drop off to 2nd place.
2. Titans, great set of tackles and in my opinion the best center of the last 10 years anchoring the line.
3. Giants, very good line, probably the best at run blocking, but they are inconsistent at times pass blocking. Eli really doesn't get enough credit for covering that up.
4. Panthers, they are the youngest line on the list and have the most potential to move up. They may have the OT combo in the league and Kalil really came on last year.
5. Vikings, can Sullivan replace Birk? If he can then maybe they should be higher. they have the best Guard in the NFL and a top-5(ish) Tackle. If Loadholt is the mauler he's projected to be than they may best the Giants as the best run blockers.
I'd say:
1. Eagles, they were solid last year and only got better. Peters may have given up a higher sack count, but he's the best run-blocking OT in the NFL, also most of his sacks are due to having to cover for Dockery who was awfu(and cut)l last year. If Shawn Andrews is back to form than its a sizable drop off to 2nd place.
2. Titans, great set of tackles and in my opinion the best center of the last 10 years anchoring the line.
3. Giants, very good line, probably the best at run blocking, but they are inconsistent at times pass blocking. Eli really doesn't get enough credit for covering that up.
4. Panthers, they are the youngest line on the list and have the most potential to move up. They may have the OT combo in the league and Kalil really came on last year.
5. Vikings, can Sullivan replace Birk? If he can then maybe they should be higher. they have the best Guard in the NFL and a top-5(ish) Tackle. If Loadholt is the mauler he's projected to be than they may best the Giants as the best run blockers.
Tau837
Footballguy
Football Outsiders 2008 OL rankingsBri said:
enver: #1 in run blocking, #4 in pass blockingCarolina: #7 in run blocking, #9 in pass blocking
Tennessee: #17 in run blocking, #3 in pass blocking
By FO's ranking system, Denver's OL was easily the best last year.
I don't think that's one of their better formulasFootball Outsiders 2008 OL rankingsBri said:
Carolina: #7 in run blocking, #9 in pass blocking
Tennessee: #17 in run blocking, #3 in pass blocking
By FO's ranking system, Denver's OL was easily the best last year.
Is too much about negatives and not positives.The great Barry Sanders got stuffed and even worse was tackled for a loss many times. I remember young Barry doing just too much dancing at times and getting caught behind the LOS. If they wanted to work up a formula to work in the losses and stuffs AND the successful runs, then fine but that first part of their ranking just seems too negative.
Nowhere near Barry but I would guess Chris Johnson had a good number of losses AND runs over 11 yards.
I'm wondering if their "power rank" is off. Lendale led the AFC in rushing TDs and they punched thru a ton of 3rd and 4th down runs for firsts. 26th seems far too low which leads me to guess something is off.
Maybe I'll dig up some stats later.
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One other thing about those rankings, when you read across the sacks are listed as different teams in a different order than the teams on the left.
The Titans were tied for best in the NFL only allowing 12 sacks for the year yet, they're 3rd there to teams that allowed 13 and 14. Denver, who tied them at 12, is ranked 4th.
Titans are also listed next to the NY Giants.
As per Denver vs Titans, (same in sacks above IMO discounting FO formula) Titans had more rush yards, more rushing TDs, more first downs rushing, and a higher average per carry BUT that formula scores Denver 16 spots ahead of the Titans. Sure seems to me like if a team is ahead in all those categories they should fare better in a ranking.
In the least, they should be far closer. 17 is a shade past middle of the league and .....it just doesn't fit.
The Titans were tied for best in the NFL only allowing 12 sacks for the year yet, they're 3rd there to teams that allowed 13 and 14. Denver, who tied them at 12, is ranked 4th.
Titans are also listed next to the NY Giants.
As per Denver vs Titans, (same in sacks above IMO discounting FO formula) Titans had more rush yards, more rushing TDs, more first downs rushing, and a higher average per carry BUT that formula scores Denver 16 spots ahead of the Titans. Sure seems to me like if a team is ahead in all those categories they should fare better in a ranking.
In the least, they should be far closer. 17 is a shade past middle of the league and .....it just doesn't fit.
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Reaper
Footballguy
KC Joyner has done some real good OL analysis... I thought this article was an interesting read...
I personally wouldn't debate how good I think the Jets OL is - I know they are good enough but, I also know how quickly an injury or 2 can ravage an OL. They need depth for sure. Top 5?? Meh, I don't know - Solidly in the top 10 discussion for now though.
I also see flaws in Joyners ratings - I think the Giants OL will get better ratings do to working together a lot more and working consistently with Eli... Plus I think Brandon Jacobs relies less on his OL than say Thomas Jones but,.. Good stuff:
Jets Vs Giants OL
Who Has the Best O-Line? Giants or Jets?
By KC Joyner
The Football Scientist, KC Joyner, is a Fifth Down contributor. Lab results from “Scientific Football 2009,” to be published in August, are now available for those who preorder the book.
One of the things I enjoy most about this job is helping to resolve the most compelling bar arguments of the day. Who is the better QB – Brady or Peyton? Who is the better wide receiver – Owens or Moss? Who is the better pass rusher – Ware or Porter?
As interesting as those discussions are, the “who is better” argument I have the highest interest in this off-season is which offensive line is better – the Giants’ or the Jets’? There are any number of ways to go about analyzing this, but since I have completed the individual performance metrics for every player on those teams’ offensive lines, I figure we might as well go about it in a head-to-head, metric vs. metric format.
The guidelines will be as follows:
Run blocking – The main metrics here are Point of Attack (POA) win percentage and Yards Per Attempt (YPA). The POA win percentage is based on tape reviews that track how often each lineman is blocking at the point of attack of a running play. In a nutshell, a lineman is given a POA win whenever he creates a crease for the ballcarrier. He is given a POA loss whenever the defender gets past him at the POA. An 80% POA win rate is considered the low end of acceptable, while 90% is considered the gold standard. YPAs can vary greatly depending on the quality of the ballcarrier, but four yards are considered the low end of acceptable.
Pass blocking – The main thrust of pass blocking is to keep the defender from making what NFL scouts call splash plays. Splash plays include sacks, offensive holding penalties, knocking passes down at the line of scrimmage and hitting the quarterback while he is passing. The fewer of these an offensive lineman allows, the better. A tiebreaker in this area will be the types of sacks given up; a lineman who only allows coverage sacks is probably better than a lineman who allows one-on-one sacks (i.e. sacks that are gained in one-on-one blocking situations and happen in the pocket in three seconds or less).
Now that we have those out of the way, let’s take a look at the Battle of New York!
Left tackle – D’Brickashaw Ferguson vs. David Diehl
Run blocking:
Ferguson – 115 POA attempts, 527 yards gained, 98 POA wins. That equates to an 85.2% POA win rate and 4.6 POA YPA.
Diehl – 142 POA attempts, 768 yards, 110 POA wins. That equals an impressive 5.4 YPA but an equally unimpressive 77.5% POA win rate.
Run blocking advantage – Ferguson’s POA lead gives him the edge here.
Pass blocking:
Ferguson – Gave up three sacks and had zero offensive holding penalties against him. Defenders rushing against him tallied one tipped pass at the line and zero times hitting the quarterback while he was passing the ball. Total splash plays – four.
Diehl – Gave up one sack and had one offensive holding penalty. Gave up one tipped pass and two hits on QB while passing. Total splash plays – five.
Pass blocking advantage – To borrow the term frequently used in my friend Nick Bakay’s hugely funny Tale of the Tape reviews (the format of which I am somewhat borrowing for this article,) let’s call this a push.
The bottom line – The metrics clearly show the reason the Giants are said to be considering moving Diehl inside. Advantage Ferguson. Jets lead, 1-0.
Left guard – Alan Faneca vs. Rich Seubert
Run blocking:
Faneca – 156 POA attempts, 844 yards, 137 POA wins. Faneca’s POA win rate – 87.8%. Faneca’s YPA – 5.4.
Seubert – 191 POA attempts, an incredible 1,459 yards, 169 POA wins. Seubert’s POA win rate – 88.5%. Seubert’s YPA 7.6.
Run blocking advantage – Faneca is the more heralded run blocker and his numbers are quite good, but Seubert was more consistent and his ballcarriers had a YPA two yards higher. Seubert surprisingly wins this one.
Pass blocking:
Faneca – Five sacks allowed, zero offensive holding penalties, zero tipped passes, three QB hits while passing. Total splash plays – eight.
Seubert – Three and a half sacks allowed, two offensive holding penalties, zero tipped passes, one QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – six and a half.
Pass blocking advantage – Maybe a slight edge to Seubert but could also go as a push.
The bottom line: The numbers say that Seubert should have been the one going to Hawaii after the season. Advantage Seubert. Teams are tied at 1-1.
Center – Nick Mangold vs. Shaun O’Hara
Run blocking:
Mangold – 141 POA attempts, 857 yards, 133 POA wins. Mangold’s POA win rate – a phenomenal 94.3%. Mangold’s YPA – 6.1.
O’Hara – 165 POA attempts, 1,181 yards, 139 POA wins. O’Hara’s POA win rate 84.2%. O’Hara’s YPA – 7.2.
Run blocking advantage – O’Hara’s YPA is very good but Mangold’s YPA in relation to the rest of his line is better. Mangold also had a huge POA win rate edge, so he wins this one fairly easily.
Pass blocking:
Mangold – Two sacks allowed, one offensive holding penalty, zero tipped passes, one QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – three.
O’Hara – One sack allowed, one offensive holding penalty, two tipped passes, two QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – six.
Pass blocking advantage – Mangold has a clear edge here as well.
The bottom line – Both made the Pro Bowl but Mangold is the best center in the NFL. Advantage Mangold. Jets lead 2-1.
Right guard – Brandon Moore vs. Chris Snee
Run blocking:
Moore – 157 POA attempts, 915 yards, 134 POA wins. Moore’s POA win rate – 85.4%. Moore’s YPA – 5.8.
Snee – 204 POA attempts, 1,321 yards, 175 POA wins. Snee’s POA win rate – 85.8%. Snee’s YPA – 6.5
Run blocking advantage – The POA win rate is almost identical. Snee has an edge in YPA but his total is 4th best on his line while Moore’s total is 3rd best on his. I’d call this a push.
Pass blocking:
Moore – Three and a half sacks allowed, two offensive holding penalties, three tipped passes, zero QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – eight and a half.
Snee – One and a half sacks, zero offensive holding penalties, zero tipped passes, zero QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – one and a half.
Pass blocking advantage – Snee takes this one hands down.
The bottom line – Snee’s pass blocking win gives him the win here as well. Teams are tied 2-2.
Right tackle – Damien Woody vs. Kareem McKenzie
Run blocking:
Woody – 134 POA attempts, 845 yards, 118 POA wins. Woody’s POA win rate – 88.1%. Woody’s YPA – 6.3.
McKenzie – 122 POA attempts, 637 yards, 104 POA wins. McKenzie’s POA win rate – 85.2%. McKenzie’s YPA – 5.2
Run blocking advantage – Woody’s overall totals are better not only head-to-head, but also in comparison with his teammates. Woody had the best YPA on his team and the 2nd best POA win rate. McKenzie had the lowest YPA on his team and was third in POA win rate. Woody is the clear winner here.
Pass blocking:
Woody – Four sacks allowed, zero offensive holding penalties, zero tipped passes, zero QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – four.
McKenzie – Six sacks allowed, zero offensive holding penalties, one tipped pass, zero QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – seven.
Pass blocking advantage – Woody again crosses the line first.
The bottom line – Woody had better totals in both areas and therefore notches the win not only for himself, but also for his team by a 3-2 total.
Going into this, I would have thought the Giants would have won this hands down, but the metrics show that isn’t the case. The Jets’ line is not only the best in New York; it may also be the best in the NFL.
(You can follow KC Joyner on Facebook at http://tinyurl.com/ckavry or on Twitter at http://twitter.com/kcjoynertfs).
I personally wouldn't debate how good I think the Jets OL is - I know they are good enough but, I also know how quickly an injury or 2 can ravage an OL. They need depth for sure. Top 5?? Meh, I don't know - Solidly in the top 10 discussion for now though.
I also see flaws in Joyners ratings - I think the Giants OL will get better ratings do to working together a lot more and working consistently with Eli... Plus I think Brandon Jacobs relies less on his OL than say Thomas Jones but,.. Good stuff:
Jets Vs Giants OL
Who Has the Best O-Line? Giants or Jets?
By KC Joyner
The Football Scientist, KC Joyner, is a Fifth Down contributor. Lab results from “Scientific Football 2009,” to be published in August, are now available for those who preorder the book.
One of the things I enjoy most about this job is helping to resolve the most compelling bar arguments of the day. Who is the better QB – Brady or Peyton? Who is the better wide receiver – Owens or Moss? Who is the better pass rusher – Ware or Porter?
As interesting as those discussions are, the “who is better” argument I have the highest interest in this off-season is which offensive line is better – the Giants’ or the Jets’? There are any number of ways to go about analyzing this, but since I have completed the individual performance metrics for every player on those teams’ offensive lines, I figure we might as well go about it in a head-to-head, metric vs. metric format.
The guidelines will be as follows:
Run blocking – The main metrics here are Point of Attack (POA) win percentage and Yards Per Attempt (YPA). The POA win percentage is based on tape reviews that track how often each lineman is blocking at the point of attack of a running play. In a nutshell, a lineman is given a POA win whenever he creates a crease for the ballcarrier. He is given a POA loss whenever the defender gets past him at the POA. An 80% POA win rate is considered the low end of acceptable, while 90% is considered the gold standard. YPAs can vary greatly depending on the quality of the ballcarrier, but four yards are considered the low end of acceptable.
Pass blocking – The main thrust of pass blocking is to keep the defender from making what NFL scouts call splash plays. Splash plays include sacks, offensive holding penalties, knocking passes down at the line of scrimmage and hitting the quarterback while he is passing. The fewer of these an offensive lineman allows, the better. A tiebreaker in this area will be the types of sacks given up; a lineman who only allows coverage sacks is probably better than a lineman who allows one-on-one sacks (i.e. sacks that are gained in one-on-one blocking situations and happen in the pocket in three seconds or less).
Now that we have those out of the way, let’s take a look at the Battle of New York!
Left tackle – D’Brickashaw Ferguson vs. David Diehl
Run blocking:
Ferguson – 115 POA attempts, 527 yards gained, 98 POA wins. That equates to an 85.2% POA win rate and 4.6 POA YPA.
Diehl – 142 POA attempts, 768 yards, 110 POA wins. That equals an impressive 5.4 YPA but an equally unimpressive 77.5% POA win rate.
Run blocking advantage – Ferguson’s POA lead gives him the edge here.
Pass blocking:
Ferguson – Gave up three sacks and had zero offensive holding penalties against him. Defenders rushing against him tallied one tipped pass at the line and zero times hitting the quarterback while he was passing the ball. Total splash plays – four.
Diehl – Gave up one sack and had one offensive holding penalty. Gave up one tipped pass and two hits on QB while passing. Total splash plays – five.
Pass blocking advantage – To borrow the term frequently used in my friend Nick Bakay’s hugely funny Tale of the Tape reviews (the format of which I am somewhat borrowing for this article,) let’s call this a push.
The bottom line – The metrics clearly show the reason the Giants are said to be considering moving Diehl inside. Advantage Ferguson. Jets lead, 1-0.
Left guard – Alan Faneca vs. Rich Seubert
Run blocking:
Faneca – 156 POA attempts, 844 yards, 137 POA wins. Faneca’s POA win rate – 87.8%. Faneca’s YPA – 5.4.
Seubert – 191 POA attempts, an incredible 1,459 yards, 169 POA wins. Seubert’s POA win rate – 88.5%. Seubert’s YPA 7.6.
Run blocking advantage – Faneca is the more heralded run blocker and his numbers are quite good, but Seubert was more consistent and his ballcarriers had a YPA two yards higher. Seubert surprisingly wins this one.
Pass blocking:
Faneca – Five sacks allowed, zero offensive holding penalties, zero tipped passes, three QB hits while passing. Total splash plays – eight.
Seubert – Three and a half sacks allowed, two offensive holding penalties, zero tipped passes, one QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – six and a half.
Pass blocking advantage – Maybe a slight edge to Seubert but could also go as a push.
The bottom line: The numbers say that Seubert should have been the one going to Hawaii after the season. Advantage Seubert. Teams are tied at 1-1.
Center – Nick Mangold vs. Shaun O’Hara
Run blocking:
Mangold – 141 POA attempts, 857 yards, 133 POA wins. Mangold’s POA win rate – a phenomenal 94.3%. Mangold’s YPA – 6.1.
O’Hara – 165 POA attempts, 1,181 yards, 139 POA wins. O’Hara’s POA win rate 84.2%. O’Hara’s YPA – 7.2.
Run blocking advantage – O’Hara’s YPA is very good but Mangold’s YPA in relation to the rest of his line is better. Mangold also had a huge POA win rate edge, so he wins this one fairly easily.
Pass blocking:
Mangold – Two sacks allowed, one offensive holding penalty, zero tipped passes, one QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – three.
O’Hara – One sack allowed, one offensive holding penalty, two tipped passes, two QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – six.
Pass blocking advantage – Mangold has a clear edge here as well.
The bottom line – Both made the Pro Bowl but Mangold is the best center in the NFL. Advantage Mangold. Jets lead 2-1.
Right guard – Brandon Moore vs. Chris Snee
Run blocking:
Moore – 157 POA attempts, 915 yards, 134 POA wins. Moore’s POA win rate – 85.4%. Moore’s YPA – 5.8.
Snee – 204 POA attempts, 1,321 yards, 175 POA wins. Snee’s POA win rate – 85.8%. Snee’s YPA – 6.5
Run blocking advantage – The POA win rate is almost identical. Snee has an edge in YPA but his total is 4th best on his line while Moore’s total is 3rd best on his. I’d call this a push.
Pass blocking:
Moore – Three and a half sacks allowed, two offensive holding penalties, three tipped passes, zero QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – eight and a half.
Snee – One and a half sacks, zero offensive holding penalties, zero tipped passes, zero QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – one and a half.
Pass blocking advantage – Snee takes this one hands down.
The bottom line – Snee’s pass blocking win gives him the win here as well. Teams are tied 2-2.
Right tackle – Damien Woody vs. Kareem McKenzie
Run blocking:
Woody – 134 POA attempts, 845 yards, 118 POA wins. Woody’s POA win rate – 88.1%. Woody’s YPA – 6.3.
McKenzie – 122 POA attempts, 637 yards, 104 POA wins. McKenzie’s POA win rate – 85.2%. McKenzie’s YPA – 5.2
Run blocking advantage – Woody’s overall totals are better not only head-to-head, but also in comparison with his teammates. Woody had the best YPA on his team and the 2nd best POA win rate. McKenzie had the lowest YPA on his team and was third in POA win rate. Woody is the clear winner here.
Pass blocking:
Woody – Four sacks allowed, zero offensive holding penalties, zero tipped passes, zero QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – four.
McKenzie – Six sacks allowed, zero offensive holding penalties, one tipped pass, zero QB hit while passing. Total splash plays – seven.
Pass blocking advantage – Woody again crosses the line first.
The bottom line – Woody had better totals in both areas and therefore notches the win not only for himself, but also for his team by a 3-2 total.
Going into this, I would have thought the Giants would have won this hands down, but the metrics show that isn’t the case. The Jets’ line is not only the best in New York; it may also be the best in the NFL.
(You can follow KC Joyner on Facebook at http://tinyurl.com/ckavry or on Twitter at http://twitter.com/kcjoynertfs).
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The Vikings aren't even in the Top 10. Aside from Hutchinson (a stud), you have a solid but somewhat inconsistent McKinnie. Then a center who's never started an NFL game, a guard (Herrera) who's probably better suited to be a backup, and a talented 2009 2nd round pick who's never started an NFL game. Doesn't seem remotely close to Top 10 on paper. Could be by season's end, but I don't think you can project them in the Top 10, much less the Top 5.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
Although I do think that Birk is being given too much credit in this thread. He did NOT play well at all last season.
sho nuff
Footballguy
You think McKinney is a top 5 tackle?Id disagree there. He might get there...but not so far in his career.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Id still put them top 10 just because of Hutch.I don't give Birk as much credit physically as far as the last year or two...but the Center spot is pretty important to the line as far as keeping guys together. And he was a big time leader on the line.
Tau837
Footballguy
Their point here is how to assess responsibility to the OL for runs. They are saying with this formula that the OL should be heavily penalized for losses and get no credit for the rushing yards gained beyond 10 yards. Note that the OL does get credit for the first 10 yards of long runs, just not the yards beyond that, which are assumed to be a result of the RB's ability.
I don't see any reason to their power success data/formula is off. Here is their definition for power success:
Tau837
Footballguy
Well, a big factor in having more rushing yards, rushing TDs, and rushing first downs is that the Titans ran the ball 508 times compared to Denver's 387. The FO formula is an average per attempt.And I'm not sure why you say the Titans had a higher average per carry... they didn't. Denver was #3 in the league, averaging 4.8 ypc... the Titans averaged 4.3 ypc, tied for #10 in the league.
I dont think so either. The run game was adequate... good at best. But was never dominating in any way.I'd say they are an average to slightly better than average line. This would place thim around 12-15.Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
Whaat? I was critical of the trade so I'm not just some bitter Bills fan. But even when Peters was at the top of his game in 06-07 he was never a great run-blocker. His protection is what made him a pro-bowler.
Last season Peters was the best run blocking tackle(maybe o-lineman in general) in the NFL. He had something like a 95% success rate at the point of attack. KC Joyner had a big article about it right after the trade when people were bringing up the sacks Peters had given up.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
Atlanta: #10 in run blocking, #5 in pass blockingFootball Outsiders 2008 OL rankingsBri said:
Carolina: #7 in run blocking, #9 in pass blocking
Tennessee: #17 in run blocking, #3 in pass blocking
By FO's ranking system, Denver's OL was easily the best last year.
the last point is just an oops on my part, you're correct. Looking across at a stats page my eyes must have wound up at the team above in the chart.I've thought about this some more and I really don't like their formula one bit. I think they're trying a little too hard and it needs to be slimmed down. Not so dissimilar to how some feel about QB rating. The bottom-line for me is, there is no way the Titans should be 17th. Your formula has issues if they are. I mean you can pick a stat that you think denotes a top OL and they had it in 2008. When they combine the stats, then the Titans suffer....it's just not a good formula IMO.I don't agree at all that the Broncos were better. Aside from what I mentioned above, if you want to discuss per attempt versus total attempts ...not sure what we'll gain anything. I guess the Titans had more confidence in their run game (and the benefits of it) than the Broncos. (Yes similarly this could be flip flopped with Broncos having more confidence in passing) I would also blame lack of rushing attempts on Broncos poor D and not having a lead to run out the clock. There could be plenty of reasons given. However, I don't think you discount that a team didn't something well often, versus a team that did something well sparingly. (sparingly might be poor choice of words-121 less times) If a team does anything 121 times well, they deserve credit for it.So if I've got this figured correctly, that formula minimizes 121 more rushes AND omits any run over 11 yards. If that were done here and we were just debating Broncos vs Titans line, someone would say that they are making the numbers read a certain way to prove a point and not taking them at face value.
Tau837
Footballguy
On the subject of the disparity between the number of rushing attempts between the Broncos and Titans, I think it had much more to do with the following factors than with the teams' respective confidence in their running games:1. The Broncos having a much better passing game than the Titans.2. The Titans having a much better defense than the Broncos.3. The Broncos having several RBs injured over the course of the season.Measuring effectiveness is the goal of the FO formula... not measuring production. The Broncos' 4.8 ypc blows away the Titans' 4.3 ypc... to some extent, that is no doubt because the factors above caused defenses facing the Broncos to focus on the pass, providing more favorable running situations, whereas Titans opponents focused on stopping the run. But it's a huge gap, nevertheless, especially when considering they had to do it with so many RBs. Just looking at the ypc gap, IMO it would be hard to say the Titans were more effective running the ball.
I'm not saying FO's formula is perfect. But what is better for measuring effectiveness? I'd love to see some better methods to measure OL performance, so let's hear it if there are better formulas/methods out there.As for FO trying to "make the numbers read a certain way to prove a point," what would be their rationale for that? 
For the last part-I didn't say FO, I said if someone had posted that here, it wasn't so....I stand by my rationale that if the Titans were 17th the formula is not a good one.On the subject of the disparity between the number of rushing attempts between the Broncos and Titans, I think it had much more to do with the following factors than with the teams' respective confidence in their running games:1. The Broncos having a much better passing game than the Titans.2. The Titans having a much better defense than the Broncos.3. The Broncos having several RBs injured over the course of the season.Measuring effectiveness is the goal of the FO formula... not measuring production. The Broncos' 4.8 ypc blows away the Titans' 4.3 ypc... to some extent, that is no doubt because the factors above caused defenses facing the Broncos to focus on the pass, providing more favorable running situations, whereas Titans opponents focused on stopping the run. But it's a huge gap, nevertheless, especially when considering they had to do it with so many RBs. Just looking at the ypc gap, IMO it would be hard to say the Titans were more effective running the ball.
Hang on let me tweet to CJ that the run game is getting dissed by alot of people.... Good. I love it when the Titans get no credit. We just play that much harder.For the last part-I didn't say FO, I said if someone had posted that here, it wasn't so....I stand by my rationale that if the Titans were 17th the formula is not a good one.On the subject of the disparity between the number of rushing attempts between the Broncos and Titans, I think it had much more to do with the following factors than with the teams' respective confidence in their running games:1. The Broncos having a much better passing game than the Titans.2. The Titans having a much better defense than the Broncos.3. The Broncos having several RBs injured over the course of the season.Measuring effectiveness is the goal of the FO formula... not measuring production. The Broncos' 4.8 ypc blows away the Titans' 4.3 ypc... to some extent, that is no doubt because the factors above caused defenses facing the Broncos to focus on the pass, providing more favorable running situations, whereas Titans opponents focused on stopping the run. But it's a huge gap, nevertheless, especially when considering they had to do it with so many RBs. Just looking at the ypc gap, IMO it would be hard to say the Titans were more effective running the ball.I'm not saying FO's formula is perfect. But what is better for measuring effectiveness? I'd love to see some better methods to measure OL performance, so let's hear it if there are better formulas/methods out there.As for FO trying to "make the numbers read a certain way to prove a point," what would be their rationale for that?
