Donnybrook
Footballguy
Per KFFL:
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Torry Holt shopped at Senior Bowl? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Donnybrook
- Start date
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Found the original story
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/st...BD?OpenDocument
Too long to post the entire story but this is the interesting bit :
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/st...BD?OpenDocument
Too long to post the entire story but this is the interesting bit :
mr. furley
Footballguy
and so the propaganda and misinformation leading up to the draft begins
Good ideas IMO... the Rams need to be scrapped for a 3-5 year rebuilding plan. Every year since the Greatest Show On Turf ended they've been trying to plug in a few veteran pieces and find the spark again, and it's just not working. Scrap all but the talented younger players and form a new team, not just a poor-man's reincarnation of the 99-01 team.
Getinthemix
Footballguy
:(
identikit
Footballguy
See post # 2, last section...
Is the Senior Bowl for all declining players past their prime??
Sinrman
Footballguy
I suppose someone could give Pace a chance. But his age/health should definitely be a concern at this point in his career. He missed only two games this past season, but only played one game in 2007 and half a season in 2006. A third rounder wouldn't be the end of the world for a contender that needs some leadership on the line and willing to take the risk that he stays healthy, I suppose...
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I think that Holt led the charge in revolt against Linnehan. I think he never got over the rift from last year and I think that he tanked it this year to get rid of Linnehan. Now that linnehan is gone I guess it is cool for him to be a team player again, but any new coach or FO guys are going to realize if things get testy again you know where this guy is going to go. Can't have a guy in the locker room who thinks he is better at running the franchise than management.
Holt has some incredible numbers and very likely a HOFer, but he should've stayed a player and not tried to play king maker, or in this case king wrecker...
Holt has some incredible numbers and very likely a HOFer, but he should've stayed a player and not tried to play king maker, or in this case king wrecker...
Tecmo
Footballguy
yeah, does seem like a very low bar to set, particularly for Pace
Michael Fox Fan
Footballguy
It's ridiculous to pin that entire situation on Holt. It sounds like Linehan had a personal vendetta against Holt which carried over into his game planning. Shocking that Holt would react to such foolishness.
Koya
Footballguy
For such a pathetic team, the Rams do have some chips that are worth something decent under the right circumstances. Pace, Holt and SJax are not going to be around the next time the Rams are good. They really should stock up... get some good picks this year, a high pick next year with depth from some trades including their big three and look at a 3 year and out plan.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I do not pin it on him at all. But he is part of the veteran leadership and he quit on the coach. You say that the coach did not call his number? The coach called his number plenty. It was uncanny that a guy with Holt's resume and no significant injury had a very hard time getting open this season. Is that Linehan's fault? I think that Linehan was a horrible coach but I also think that Holt quit on his team, the coach and the fans.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
SJax could still be there. Turn arounds in the NFL can happen in a season. But even if it takes 3 seasons, at 25, SJax has a good 5 years ahead of him if he can remain healthy
Koya
Footballguy
Most NFL turnarounds can happen in 1-2 - but I dont see it with this core. They could become ok in a year or two, but the fact is shelf life for a RB, especially a physical back who already is always injured, is not a long one. Id cash in now and build for the future. Maybe you can do something in 2 and begin to get a true core going forward because as they are set, by the time they get ok, SJax will be 28 and thats already a LOT of tread for a back of his type.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
totally agree. That's a garbage can story.It's an automatic deal for STL.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I agree. Maybe a conditional pick that could've been a first rounder (Titans make the SB type deal), or it was a 1st round pick but the Rams give up their 2nd round pick which is two picks into the second. Who knows? But what I do know it was not as cut and dried as it is mentioned here...
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
I don't see the Rams spending high picksin consecutive years on WRs with all the holesthat need to be filled elsewhere.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
2nd rounder last year and a first rounder this year is not the second coming of Matt Millen and the Lions...
eric rymer
Footballguy
I couldn't agree more. Way too many holes to take Crabtree unless they are doing it with the intention to deal for more picks.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Once again, a lot of NFL teams do NOT draft on need, esp. in the 1st round. They take BPA. Not sure why this is stated so many times.Minn did not need AP with the #7 pick. They had Chester and lots of other needs.NO did not need R. Bush with Deuce.Pitt did not need MendenhallDallas did not need Felix Jonesetc., etc., etc.If StL feels Crabtree is an elite talent and the best player on the board, they're likely not going to take a lesser talent just to fill a separate need on the team. Most NFL teams (if not all) work this way.
cstu
Footballguy
This is my thinking. With no sure-thing at OT it makes sense to take Crabtree if the Rams believe he's elite.
Ghost of Bill Walsh
Footballguy
Yeah,me too not seeing them take a WR real high but on the other hand it worked out well for Arizona with Fitz and disgruntled Boldin for a while. Having Avery and Crabtree leading the way would be tempting but then again ya gotta have someone get them the ball. Bulger is no Warner and don't think he'll get close to being what he was a few years ago. It's possible but I think he's gettin' a noodle arm. Still, they may take Crabtree and look for a vet fa QB if they trade Pace . Don't know what else they have to offer. If they end up with two pretty good receivers in Avery and Crabtree surely some vet's gonna wanna go to St.Louie for a chance to throw to those 2 guys and improve their own status wouldn't think? Just speculatin' there. Avery and Crabtree aren't Fitz and Boldin and they may never be but the potential's there, so why not go young and grab him with their first pick and go from there. They aren't going to do much this year if they don't take him other than maybe the trades they're talkin about and getting some extra draft picks. If that's the case those extra picks are gonna take time to develop as well. If you got a shot at the best receiver in the draft and you need help in a lot of other areas it'll be a tough decision for the Rams but I honestly could see them taking Crabtree and keeping him away from their division rival the Seahawks who just about everyone has Crabtree going to them at #4. Ahhh, don't ya just love all the hype and speculatin' before the draft. We wouldn't need to really. Just ask Mel Kiper Jr.and he'll give us the correct answers 
Since the Rams are sittin' at #2 they also have the luxury of taking the best QB in the draft,Matthew Stafford. Bulger hasn't looked very good and sooner or later the Rams are gonna need a franchise QB and Stafford could be that guy. So they'll have a salty decision to make. Crabtree could be the safest pick in the draft as I believe he has Fitzgerald ability but the Rams are surely gonna need a franchise QB too and soon so I'd say they're sitting pretty good with who they're able to take. I personally would like to see them take Crabtree and try to find a vet QB, maybe even Derek Anderson(27passing td's & 3 rush td's in 2007 & I think he'll only be 27 this year) or another vet who's not too old, but they'll probably end up taking Stafford with their 1st pick. Bloom has them taking Stafford with his mock draft which could end up being correct.
Since the Rams are sittin' at #2 they also have the luxury of taking the best QB in the draft,Matthew Stafford. Bulger hasn't looked very good and sooner or later the Rams are gonna need a franchise QB and Stafford could be that guy. So they'll have a salty decision to make. Crabtree could be the safest pick in the draft as I believe he has Fitzgerald ability but the Rams are surely gonna need a franchise QB too and soon so I'd say they're sitting pretty good with who they're able to take. I personally would like to see them take Crabtree and try to find a vet QB, maybe even Derek Anderson(27passing td's & 3 rush td's in 2007 & I think he'll only be 27 this year) or another vet who's not too old, but they'll probably end up taking Stafford with their 1st pick. Bloom has them taking Stafford with his mock draft which could end up being correct.
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eric rymer
Footballguy
Don't really agree with the bolded but I don't disagree with the rest of your post at all. I am all for going with BPA. I just feel like STL has such a glaring need at OL that I don't honestly see how they can pass on one with the 2nd overall pick. Help on the Oline to do more for that team than adding another WR will IMO. I may be in the minority here, but I just don't feel like Crabtree is considered a once in a lifetime talent like ADP, Bush or even Calvin Johnson were coming out of college. But hey, if STL feels that strongly about him and what he could become then they should take him. If they think that they can get a solid OL prospect without to great of a dropoff at the begining on the 2nd then I could certainly get on the "Crabtree to STL" way of thinking. I guess I shouldn't say it's a bad idea as long as they do something to address that Oline.
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Lott's Fingertip
Footballguy
Paragraphs are our friends. ;-)Yeah,me too not seeing them take a WR real high but on the other hand it worked out well for Arizona with Fitz and disgruntled Boldin for a while. Having Avery and Crabtree leading the way would be tempting but then again ya gotta have someone get them the ball. Bulger is no Warner and don't think he'll get close to being what he was a few years ago. It's possible but I think he's gettin' a noodle arm. Still, they may take Crabtree and look for a vet fa QB if they trade Pace . Don't know what else they have to offer. If they end up with two pretty good receivers in Avery and Crabtree surely some vet's gonna wanna go to St.Louie for a chance to throw to those 2 guys and improve their own status wouldn't think? Just speculatin' there. Avery and Crabtree aren't Fitz and Boldin and they may never be but the potential's there, so why not go young and grab him with their first pick and go from there. They aren't going to do much this year if they don't take him other than maybe the trades they're talkin about and getting some extra draft picks. If that's the case those extra picks are gonna take time to develop as well. If you got a shot at the best receiver in the draft and you need help in a lot of other areas it'll be a tough decision for the Rams but I honestly could see them taking Crabtree and keeping him away from their division rival the Seahawks who just about everyone has Crabtree going to them at #4. Ahhh, don't ya just love all the hype and speculatin' before the draft. We wouldn't need to really. Just ask Mel Kiper Jr.and he'll give us the correct answersSince the Rams are sittin' at #2 they also have the luxury of taking the best QB in the draft,Matthew Stafford. Bulger hasn't looked very good and sooner or later the Rams are gonna need a franchise QB and Stafford could be that guy. So they'll have a salty decision to make. Crabtree could be the safest pick in the draft as I believe he has Fitzgerald ability but the Rams are surely gonna need a franchise QB too and soon so I'd say they're sitting pretty good with who they're able to take. I personally would like to see them take Crabtree and try to find a vet QB, maybe even Derek Anderson(27passing td's & 3 rush td's in 2007 & I think he'll only be 27 this year) or another vet who's not too old, but they'll probably end up taking Stafford with their 1st pick. Bloom has them taking Stafford with his mock draft which could end up being correct.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
One note about Bulger. Being a Rams Homer I hear all the local talk radio stuff and without relaying what the hosts are saying I will tell you what I have heard from Bulger. In an interview a couple weeks ago he talked about how he was the only one in town the entire offseason working out every day at Rams park. He also, for the first time ever, sounded extremely excited about the upcoming season.
Bulger is a cold fish. He never sounds excited about anything. I'm guessing that when the guy orgasms he does so with a straight face and with a low, monotone voice. He genuinely sounded excited. He also alluded to a rift in the locker room in the past by saying that there will only be one direction this year and if a player is not pointed that way that player will be gone. I hope Holt was listening to that.
Bulger also said that the Rams will be going to a WC type offense. Which to me says a couple of things about the upcoming season - quick drops and quick, short, high percentage passes. This should take pressure off the O-Line and keep Bulger upright. Keeping bulger upright is the key to his success. Sure every QB gets knocked down. But Bulger has been in shellshock for 2 years. Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, whatever you want to call it. I would be willing to bet the guy threw more passes off his back foot and moving away from the receiver than he did stepping into a throw and moving toward the receiver.
One downside to this is it usually takes a QB a few years to master the WC offense and Bulger has never really been in that offense other than at the pro-bowl a couple of years ago.
I see the Rams going QB in the mid rounds to compete with and motivate Bulger (as well as be a backup because we have none) and take an O-Lineman or that LB (name escapes me) in the first. I just can't see them paying 1.2 pick signing bonus and having either that QB or Bulger ride the pine when they have so many more needs...
Now if they move Holt then I think Crabtree is the man.
Bulger is a cold fish. He never sounds excited about anything. I'm guessing that when the guy orgasms he does so with a straight face and with a low, monotone voice. He genuinely sounded excited. He also alluded to a rift in the locker room in the past by saying that there will only be one direction this year and if a player is not pointed that way that player will be gone. I hope Holt was listening to that.
Bulger also said that the Rams will be going to a WC type offense. Which to me says a couple of things about the upcoming season - quick drops and quick, short, high percentage passes. This should take pressure off the O-Line and keep Bulger upright. Keeping bulger upright is the key to his success. Sure every QB gets knocked down. But Bulger has been in shellshock for 2 years. Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, whatever you want to call it. I would be willing to bet the guy threw more passes off his back foot and moving away from the receiver than he did stepping into a throw and moving toward the receiver.
One downside to this is it usually takes a QB a few years to master the WC offense and Bulger has never really been in that offense other than at the pro-bowl a couple of years ago.
I see the Rams going QB in the mid rounds to compete with and motivate Bulger (as well as be a backup because we have none) and take an O-Lineman or that LB (name escapes me) in the first. I just can't see them paying 1.2 pick signing bonus and having either that QB or Bulger ride the pine when they have so many more needs...
Now if they move Holt then I think Crabtree is the man.
JPeso
Footballguy
I am warming up to the idea that Crabtree should be the pick at 2 regardless of what happens with Holt, but I just don't see them going any other way than OL.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I am too on both counts. I don't know what the Offensive line FA's are out there but if they could snag a significant O-lineman via free agency then I would be giddy to have Crabtree at 2.
Lott's Fingertip
Footballguy
Rams fan here that is hoping for an OL at #2, or a trade down.
Please, NO QB at #2.... and I'm not crazy about Crabtree there either.
Please, NO QB at #2.... and I'm not crazy about Crabtree there either.
cstu
Footballguy
Dallas has an opening.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
holt was conspicuously anti-linehan... and so is just about every ram fan (randy karraker recently called him the worst coach in franchise history, which goes back what, over half a century)... reportedly when holt had the the tirade caught on camera in 2007, he & bruce had tried to give linehan input on a play, & he told them... you play, & i'll coach (& the next play was an INT that i think cost them a chance at a comeback) ... he didn't need to big time a seven time pro bowler & future HoFer like that... even if he didn't want input, he could have communicated it with more tact & discretion... he was acting like he was vince lombardi or bill walsh...a couple other factors that might account for the dropoff, without assuming he tanked it... the whole team was bad... AFTER linehan was fired at 0-4, they won two under haslett, than lost 10 straight... did the whole team tank? why, when linehan was gone already? also, tanking always runs the risk that new regime fires you (maybe that is what he wanted, he certainly didn't like how the front office handled bruce, his mentor)... but the OL was awful, & it is as least as likely (more i would say) that OL & bulger's problems led to holt's lack of production, than vice verce...also, he may have a chronic, degenerative knee condition...
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
i agree, they would probably be lucky to get a 4th, & a 5th (at best) might be more likely... i'm referring to this year... in 2008, the rams probably could have fetched more, but also agree a 1st would seem unlikely... had they cut bruce at that time? that would have left the since cut bennett as their top WR, & he was injury prone...
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Bob Magaw
Footballguy
rams insiders seem to suggest that LT, monroe or j. smith are early favorites... if they surprisingly go in a different direction, curry & crabtree would be in the mix, with curry probably the slight non-LT favorite...
Birdie048
Footballguy
Holt had stated last summer that he would like to play at Carolina (with his brother)... Holt is an NC State alum and would love to come back to Carolina. He has been back for his annual Charity Golf event and has been known to come visit friends when time allows.
Carolina could use him as a solid WR#2 across from Steve Smith.....
Carolina could use him as a solid WR#2 across from Steve Smith.....
TheFanatic
Footballguy
1) I am a Rams home and this is the first I have heard of this as the reason for the dust up caught on tape2) Linehan may call the play, but it's Bulger's job not to throw a pic3) I'm sorry, but it is Holt and Bruce's jobs to play and Linehans to coach. He's not big timing them. He's their boss. Coaches that are tactful and kiss up to players get walked on. How do you think Bill Belichek would've responded had Randy Moss, a sure fire HOFer, told him how to call plays?
Lott's Fingertip
Footballguy
"Just throw it up!"And they did.TheFanatic said:
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Would love to see Holt wind up in Miami, I have always been a fan of Holt.
I think he would fit well with Carolina too.
I think he would fit well with Carolina too.
Blackjacks
Footballguy
Places, in order, I see Holt ending up 1-15
NYG
Carolina
Buff
NYJ
Jax
Washington
Houston
Dallas
Tenn
Philly
SF
Chicago
Minn
Oakland
Cleveland
NYG
Carolina
Buff
NYJ
Jax
Washington
Houston
Dallas
Tenn
Philly
SF
Chicago
Minn
Oakland
Cleveland
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
fanatic,i don't live in st. louis (LA), but have been a rams fan my whole life, have written them up for going on six years for the site, spend a few hours each week (more sometimes) following local sites & news sources (people like jim thomas, randy karriker, bernie miklasz, brian burwell, etc), so i'd say i'm pretty wired into the rams..TheFanatic said:
it is the internet era, & not necessary to live in the home town to be in a position to follow them closely...
i'm sure you have probably heard information i'm not privy to, due to your proximity, & obviously i've heard things you haven't because it is my job to follow them closely year round...
i'm not sure the sources are true, i can only tell you that they were out there... i'll try & post some links below... may have originated from PFT, so take that with a grain of salt, but it would explain some things... when were bruce & holt ever considered malcontents before? there history of being good citizens in st. louis predates linehan by a wide margin, so i would be more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt...
how did the immortal linehan's communication & people skills serve him in st. louis? maybe you don't mean to come off as running down one of the greatest rams in franchise history in holt, & being an apologist for possibly the worst coach in franchise history (karraker said he was)?
why compare linehan to belichick... did linehan, in his stint with the rams, do anything remotely close to belichick to deserve or earn such a comparison? if there is a comparison to be made here, it may be that belichick was reportedly very cold & rude to his vets in his first time as a HC in CLE, reportedly had zero people skills, and was fired...
do you know with certainty that if moss sees something on the field, he can't make a comment to brady, the OC or HC, without being coldly told... you play, & i'll pass, or i'll call the plays... how could you? so you are being speculative, in a way that seems to be going out of your way to criticize holt & be an apologist & defender of linehan...
since you are a homer, did holt have an extensive history of being a malcontent BEFORE linehan came aboard... did he just become TO all of a sudden?
you really can't consider the possiblility that holt's decline may have had as much to do with failures of OL, QB & playcalling, than holt's "tanking", as you seemed to insinuate, had to do with the rams general & overall failures... it seems absurd & ridiculous to blame holt for the rams systemic failures... that probably has more to do than anything with martz/linehan & shaw/zygmunt, & their appallingly poor drafting, free agent choices, cap mismanagement, bungled roster architecting...
since you follow the team so closely, haven't you heard that holt may have a chronic, degenerative knee condition... why not take a face value explanation like that for his decline, that positing machiavellian schemes to bring linehan down by dogging it...
imo, though, the biggest indictment of your theory, & what seems to blow it up... holt, & the whole team for that matter, did poorly AFTER linehan was fired & haslett was named as the HC... was holt trying to get haslett fired, too... was the whole team dogging it... were they trying to get haslett fired, too? wouldn't that be taking a risk that they would get fired & not be guaranteed of finding another job... albeit, this wouldn't be the case with holt... i already said he may have been angry at the organization for the way linehan ran the team into the ground, & front office was complicit in it... i disagree that a player who always showed pride in his play previously & was one of the greatest WRs in league history, who never showed signs of being a problem, would dog it when there are other, more reasonable explanations for what happened...
if we are going to be speculative, maybe linehan decided to deemphasize holt in the offense out of pettiness... you may think linehan couldn't have possibly been that petty, & why would he cut his own throat & risk being fired by not using one of his top offensive weapons... he would have to be stupid... but he did seem to make some stupid decisions (taking brian leonard instead of ryan kalil... pure genius)...
another big factor in rams general problems... they stupidly jerked steven jackson around (later paying him same contract they could have earlier), he reported to camp late, got hurt, missed games, was ineffective in others... don't you think that hurt bulger & bruce, without needing to ascribe a nefarious hidden agenda on holts part?
*
http://wizbangsports.com/2007/12/linehan_p...s_not_mad_a.php
** & another reminder that there were three high profile meltdowns on the sidelines, also by bulger & jackson... were they all malcontents & bad guys, or is it more likely that linehan was incompetent... if linehan was such a great HC, how did they end up being 5-27 in last two seasons (i admit front office & previous HC martz also contributed to running franchise into the ground)... it also mentions that mutinies were happening behind the scenes with other players, behind closed doors, all the time... how bad (or much of a jerk) would linehan have had to be for this to happen?
"Linehan has now had sideline confrontations with the three biggest offensive producers on his team — Steven Jackson, Marc Bulger, and Torry Holt — and it’s “not a big deal?” And, according to Bryan Burwell, the three tantrums that we have seen are just the tip of the iceberg. The player he quotes makes it sound as if this sort of thing happens behind closed doors all the time. It seems that Linehan’s players are sick of playing for him"...
*** better analogy might be the magic johnson situation with the lakers, when he complained about the HC (was it mckinney or westhead?)... now, maybe magic was a kingmaker, to use your terminology, but i'd say that worked out pretty good for lakers fans, no? he basically was important enough & expensive enough to the franchise that he literally was bigger than the HC (jerry bus sided with him, & the HC was fired)... it didn't in any way blemish or tarnish magic's record, who would be on the all time NBA starting five, & the HC that got the boot is a distant, remote footnote in lakers & league history (like i said, i'm not even sure about the coach's name... now i think because mckinney fell off a bike or something & had a head injury, westhead was an assistan coach that assumed duties?)... as linehan probably will prove to be in rams history... doubt if he will be making the franchise equivalent of the ring of honor any time soon... holt will be an automatic inductee (if they have one)...
**** not trying to come off as harsh, fanatic... incidentally, i respect your work on the boards (maybe pulling the homer card pushed a button
if so, i apologize)... i just think that, linehan got fired before holt... not because holt got him fired, but because he was incompetent & virtually the whole team tuned him out... holt will be released (or traded), but that has more to do with his age & money he makes not fitting in with a youth movemnt & rebuild, & probably concerns that due to his knee, he will underperform his current contract... they might be receptive to a restructure, but i doubt he is... his release has nothing, imo, to do with politics...
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Super King
Footballguy
Philly or NYG = 
Blackjacks
Footballguy
fanatic,i don't live in st. louis (LA), but have been a rams fan my whole life, have written them up for going on six years for the site, spend a few hours each week (more sometimes) following local sites & news sources (people like jim thomas, randy karriker, bernie miklasz, brian burwell, etc), so i'd say i'm pretty wired into the rams..TheFanatic said:
it is the internet era, & not necessary to live in the home town to be in a position to follow them closely...
i'm sure you have probably heard information i'm not privy to, due to your proximity, & obviously i've heard things you haven't because it is my job to follow them closely year round...
i'm not sure the sources are true, i can only tell you that they were out there... i'll try & post some links below... may have originated from PFT, so take that with a grain of salt, but it would explain some things... when were bruce & holt ever considered malcontents before? there history of being good citizens in st. louis predates linehan by a wide margin, so i would be more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt...
how did the immortal linehan's communication & people skills serve him in st. louis? maybe you don't mean to come off as running down one of the greatest rams in franchise history in holt, & being an apologist for possibly the worst coach in franchise history (karraker said he was)?
why compare linehan to belichick... did linehan, in his stint with the rams, do anything remotely close to belichick to deserve or earn such a comparison? if there is a comparison to be made here, it may be that belichick was reportedly very cold & rude to his vets in his first time as a HC in CLE, reportedly had zero people skills, and was fired...
do you know with certainty that if moss sees something on the field, he can't make a comment to brady, the OC or HC, without being coldly told... you play, & i'll pass, or i'll call the plays... how could you? so you are being speculative, in a way that seems to be going out of your way to criticize holt & be an apologist & defender of linehan...
since you are a homer, did holt have an extensive history of being a malcontent BEFORE linehan came aboard... did he just become TO all of a sudden?
you really can't consider the possiblility that holt's decline may have had as much to do with failures of OL, QB & playcalling, than holt's "tanking", as you seemed to insinuate, had to do with the rams general & overall failures... it seems absurd & ridiculous to blame holt for the rams systemic failures... that probably has more to do than anything with martz/linehan & shaw/zygmunt, & their appallingly poor drafting, free agent choices, cap mismanagement, bungled roster architecting...
since you follow the team so closely, haven't you heard that holt may have a chronic, degenerative knee condition... why not take a face value explanation like that for his decline, that positing machiavellian schemes to bring linehan down by dogging it...
imo, though, the biggest indictment of your theory, & what seems to blow it up... holt, & the whole team for that matter, did poorly AFTER linehan was fired & haslett was named as the HC... was holt trying to get haslett fired, too... was the whole team dogging it... were they trying to get haslett fired, too? wouldn't that be taking a risk that they would get fired & not be guaranteed of finding another job... albeit, this wouldn't be the case with holt... i already said he may have been angry at the organization for the way linehan ran the team into the ground, & front office was complicit in it... i disagree that a player who always showed pride in his play previously & was one of the greatest WRs in league history, who never showed signs of being a problem, would dog it when there are other, more reasonable explanations for what happened...
if we are going to be speculative, maybe linehan decided to deemphasize holt in the offense out of pettiness... you may think linehan couldn't have possibly been that petty, & why would he cut his own throat & risk being fired by not using one of his top offensive weapons... he would have to be stupid... but he did seem to make some stupid decisions (taking brian leonard instead of ryan kalil... pure genius)...
another big factor in rams general problems... they stupidly jerked steven jackson around (later paying him same contract they could have earlier), he reported to camp late, got hurt, missed games, was ineffective in others... don't you think that hurt bulger & bruce, without needing to ascribe a nefarious hidden agenda on holts part?
*
http://wizbangsports.com/2007/12/linehan_p...s_not_mad_a.php
** & another reminder that there were three high profile meltdowns on the sidelines, also by bulger & jackson... were they all malcontents & bad guys, or is it more likely that linehan was incompetent... if linehan was such a great HC, how did they end up being 5-27 in last two seasons (i admit front office & previous HC martz also contributed to running franchise into the ground)... it also mentions that mutinies were happening behind the scenes with other players, behind closed doors, all the time... how bad (or much of a jerk) would linehan have had to be for this to happen?
"Linehan has now had sideline confrontations with the three biggest offensive producers on his team — Steven Jackson, Marc Bulger, and Torry Holt — and it’s “not a big deal?” And, according to Bryan Burwell, the three tantrums that we have seen are just the tip of the iceberg. The player he quotes makes it sound as if this sort of thing happens behind closed doors all the time. It seems that Linehan’s players are sick of playing for him"...
*** better analogy might be the magic johnson situation with the lakers, when he complained about the HC (was it mckinney or westhead?)... now, maybe magic was a kingmaker, to use your terminology, but i'd say that worked out pretty good for lakers fans, no? he basically was important enough & expensive enough to the franchise that he literally was bigger than the HC (jerry bus sided with him, & the HC was fired)... it didn't in any way blemish or tarnish magic's record, who would be on the all time NBA starting five, & the HC that got the boot is a distant, remote footnote in lakers & league history (like i said, i'm not even sure about the coach's name... now i think because mckinney fell off a bike or something & had a head injury, westhead was an assistan coach that assumed duties?)... as linehan probably will prove to be in rams history... doubt if he will be making the franchise equivalent of the ring of honor any time soon... holt will be an automatic inductee (if they have one)...
**** not trying to come off as harsh, fanatic... incidentally, i respect your work on the boards (maybe pulling the homer card pushed a buttonif so, i apologize)... i just think that, linehan got fired before holt... not because holt got him fired, but because he was incompetent & virtually the whole team tuned him out... holt will be released (or traded), but that has more to do with his age & money he makes not fitting in with a youth movemnt & rebuild, & probably concerns that due to his knee, he will underperform his current contract... they might be receptive to a restructure, but i doubt he is... his release has nothing, imo, to do with politics...
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cstu
Footballguy
Philly would be a great fit I think. The rumor going around is Reggie Brown and an unspecified pick for Holt.Philly or NYG =
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TheFanatic
Footballguy
Fire down there trigger. No need to take offense that I had not heard the parameters around the Holt blow up. All the sources you site as where you get your info I get info from those sources as well. Most of those guys are on local radio. And I am on Bernie's site almost every day. I just had never heard that. no big deal. Don't take it as a shot to your ego.I just said that it is not Holt's job to call plays. Linehan may be the worst coach of all time but his job is to call the plays. Jerry Rice was probably the greatest player to ever play the game. Not his job to call plays.fanatic,i don't live in st. louis (LA), but have been a rams fan my whole life, have written them up for going on six years for the site, spend a few hours each week (more sometimes) following local sites & news sources (people like jim thomas, randy karriker, bernie miklasz, brian burwell, etc), so i'd say i'm pretty wired into the rams..TheFanatic said:
it is the internet era, & not necessary to live in the home town to be in a position to follow them closely...
i'm sure you have probably heard information i'm not privy to, due to your proximity, & obviously i've heard things you haven't because it is my job to follow them closely year round...
i'm not sure the sources are true, i can only tell you that they were out there... i'll try & post some links below... may have originated from PFT, so take that with a grain of salt, but it would explain some things... when were bruce & holt ever considered malcontents before? there history of being good citizens in st. louis predates linehan by a wide margin, so i would be more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt...
how did the immortal linehan's communication & people skills serve him in st. louis? maybe you don't mean to come off as running down one of the greatest rams in franchise history in holt, & being an apologist for possibly the worst coach in franchise history (karraker said he was)?
why compare linehan to belichick... did linehan, in his stint with the rams, do anything remotely close to belichick to deserve or earn such a comparison? if there is a comparison to be made here, it may be that belichick was reportedly very cold & rude to his vets in his first time as a HC in CLE, reportedly had zero people skills, and was fired...
do you know with certainty that if moss sees something on the field, he can't make a comment to brady, the OC or HC, without being coldly told... you play, & i'll pass, or i'll call the plays... how could you? so you are being speculative, in a way that seems to be going out of your way to criticize holt & be an apologist & defender of linehan...
since you are a homer, did holt have an extensive history of being a malcontent BEFORE linehan came aboard... did he just become TO all of a sudden?
you really can't consider the possiblility that holt's decline may have had as much to do with failures of OL, QB & playcalling, than holt's "tanking", as you seemed to insinuate, had to do with the rams general & overall failures... it seems absurd & ridiculous to blame holt for the rams systemic failures... that probably has more to do than anything with martz/linehan & shaw/zygmunt, & their appallingly poor drafting, free agent choices, cap mismanagement, bungled roster architecting...
since you follow the team so closely, haven't you heard that holt may have a chronic, degenerative knee condition... why not take a face value explanation like that for his decline, that positing machiavellian schemes to bring linehan down by dogging it...
imo, though, the biggest indictment of your theory, & what seems to blow it up... holt, & the whole team for that matter, did poorly AFTER linehan was fired & haslett was named as the HC... was holt trying to get haslett fired, too... was the whole team dogging it... were they trying to get haslett fired, too? wouldn't that be taking a risk that they would get fired & not be guaranteed of finding another job... albeit, this wouldn't be the case with holt... i already said he may have been angry at the organization for the way linehan ran the team into the ground, & front office was complicit in it... i disagree that a player who always showed pride in his play previously & was one of the greatest WRs in league history, who never showed signs of being a problem, would dog it when there are other, more reasonable explanations for what happened...
if we are going to be speculative, maybe linehan decided to deemphasize holt in the offense out of pettiness... you may think linehan couldn't have possibly been that petty, & why would he cut his own throat & risk being fired by not using one of his top offensive weapons... he would have to be stupid... but he did seem to make some stupid decisions (taking brian leonard instead of ryan kalil... pure genius)...
another big factor in rams general problems... they stupidly jerked steven jackson around (later paying him same contract they could have earlier), he reported to camp late, got hurt, missed games, was ineffective in others... don't you think that hurt bulger & bruce, without needing to ascribe a nefarious hidden agenda on holts part?
*
http://wizbangsports.com/2007/12/linehan_p...s_not_mad_a.php
** & another reminder that there were three high profile meltdowns on the sidelines, also by bulger & jackson... were they all malcontents & bad guys, or is it more likely that linehan was incompetent... if linehan was such a great HC, how did they end up being 5-27 in last two seasons (i admit front office & previous HC martz also contributed to running franchise into the ground)... it also mentions that mutinies were happening behind the scenes with other players, behind closed doors, all the time... how bad (or much of a jerk) would linehan have had to be for this to happen?
"Linehan has now had sideline confrontations with the three biggest offensive producers on his team — Steven Jackson, Marc Bulger, and Torry Holt — and it’s “not a big deal?” And, according to Bryan Burwell, the three tantrums that we have seen are just the tip of the iceberg. The player he quotes makes it sound as if this sort of thing happens behind closed doors all the time. It seems that Linehan’s players are sick of playing for him"...
*** better analogy might be the magic johnson situation with the lakers, when he complained about the HC (was it mckinney or westhead?)... now, maybe magic was a kingmaker, to use your terminology, but i'd say that worked out pretty good for lakers fans, no? he basically was important enough & expensive enough to the franchise that he literally was bigger than the HC (jerry bus sided with him, & the HC was fired)... it didn't in any way blemish or tarnish magic's record, who would be on the all time NBA starting five, & the HC that got the boot is a distant, remote footnote in lakers & league history (like i said, i'm not even sure about the coach's name... now i think because mckinney fell off a bike or something & had a head injury, westhead was an assistan coach that assumed duties?)... as linehan probably will prove to be in rams history... doubt if he will be making the franchise equivalent of the ring of honor any time soon... holt will be an automatic inductee (if they have one)...
**** not trying to come off as harsh, fanatic... incidentally, i respect your work on the boards (maybe pulling the homer card pushed a button
I've got meetings for the rest of the day so I don't have time to address this novel you wrote. But considering how upset you got after my first post here I'm not so sure I should follow up any more than I just did here. Good luck to you and just remember it's an anonymous message board. Don't take it so personal...
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
fanatic (not champ, or sparky, etc 
)... with all due respect, you could benefit from your own advice...
first of all, its disingenuous & self-refuting to sermonize about board manners in a condescending & patronizing tone...
by not reading the complete post, you missed the last paragraph, in which i said specifically i wasn't trying to be harsh, & respected your work on the boards (thus it goes closer to the BEGINNING here, where hopefully it can't be missed)...
there are few people on the board i agree with every time (for example, i have immense respect for bloom, but thought frank coyle & mike mayock were more on the money with TE john carlson's evaluation & NFL projection last year... hey, at least i'm comparing him to the best)... this difference of opinion isn't an indictment of your entire body of work... i just think you are way off, with the operating qualifier being... IN THIS INSTANCE...
don't take the novel-like length of my rejoinder personally... it wasn't a blitzkrieg on your position, its just that, if anybody, & i mean ANYBODY ( ), knows anything about my writing in the half decade+ i've been here, they would know that brevity & succinctness are pretty far from my strong suit (i genuinely & sincerely wish they were)... trust me, or if you don't believe me, look no further than the (germane & salient to this thread) 2009 rams thread... i have some seriously long analysis/commentary-type posts interspersed with the news in there... albeit, maybe not novel length (novella?)...
maybe i misinterpreted you when you said you were a homer & hadn't heard the report, but you also might have misinterpreted me... i wasn't giving you my rams "curriculum vitae" for ego reasons, but just in case you thought i wasn't informed or qualified to discuss them... that's all...
this started because i questioned a speculative accusation upthread that you thought holt was dogging it to get linehan fired, & that it would come back to haunt him...
i thought it was baseless, & gave some reasons why...
just because i don't agree with you, doesn't mean i took it personally or am upset... it just means i don't agree with you...
we will just have to agree to disagree that ALL players, even future HoFers, are equally TO-like locker room cancers if they make a suggestion about a play that might work to a HC...
and all HCs, even ones like linehan (who karraker just this week called probably the worst HC in rams history), are automatically & by definition in the right if they respond with sneering, snot-nosed responses...
i just think that, when you make counterintuitive, contrarian, controversial statements (such as holt, one of the most respected players in franchise history, is a locker room cancer, and linehan, who will live in rams infamy, was faultless & beyond reproach in his handling of veterans), you should expect to get questions about it...
i'll try one last time to explain why i don't agree with you, not because i am taking this personally or upset, but just in the interest of clarification (& hopefully you'll read & address a shorter response)...
holt is about to be released, & it has to do with the fact that he is aging, may have a bad knee, is in decline, makes $7-8 million per year, is likely to underperform said contract, probably refusing to restructure, may want to play for a team with a better chance of winning (how much time does he have left realistically?) & doesn't fit in with the rams new youth movement & rebuild... it will have very little (if anything) to do with politics, or a perception that he is a locker room cancer, ala TO...
i'm not sure where holt will end up, what kind of demand he will elicit or how much of a salary he can command, but imo, if some franchises pass on him, it will be because of the above reasons (aging, bad knee, declining skills, expensive, etc), & have little or nothing to do with a widespread perception around the league that he is a TO-like locker room cancer...
just for the record, if you took a poll in the SP, what percentage of people do you think would agree with you that holt is a TO-like locker room cancer (or specifically dogged it to get linehan fired), & linehan was faultless in how he dealt with rams veterans?
after all, maybe you are right... if we started a spinoff thread, & the majority of the thread contributors sided with you, i would happily stand corrected...
)... with all due respect, you could benefit from your own advice...first of all, its disingenuous & self-refuting to sermonize about board manners in a condescending & patronizing tone...
by not reading the complete post, you missed the last paragraph, in which i said specifically i wasn't trying to be harsh, & respected your work on the boards (thus it goes closer to the BEGINNING here, where hopefully it can't be missed)...
there are few people on the board i agree with every time (for example, i have immense respect for bloom, but thought frank coyle & mike mayock were more on the money with TE john carlson's evaluation & NFL projection last year... hey, at least i'm comparing him to the best)... this difference of opinion isn't an indictment of your entire body of work... i just think you are way off, with the operating qualifier being... IN THIS INSTANCE...
don't take the novel-like length of my rejoinder personally... it wasn't a blitzkrieg on your position, its just that, if anybody, & i mean ANYBODY (
), knows anything about my writing in the half decade+ i've been here, they would know that brevity & succinctness are pretty far from my strong suit (i genuinely & sincerely wish they were)... trust me, or if you don't believe me, look no further than the (germane & salient to this thread) 2009 rams thread... i have some seriously long analysis/commentary-type posts interspersed with the news in there... albeit, maybe not novel length (novella?)...maybe i misinterpreted you when you said you were a homer & hadn't heard the report, but you also might have misinterpreted me... i wasn't giving you my rams "curriculum vitae" for ego reasons, but just in case you thought i wasn't informed or qualified to discuss them... that's all...
this started because i questioned a speculative accusation upthread that you thought holt was dogging it to get linehan fired, & that it would come back to haunt him...
i thought it was baseless, & gave some reasons why...
just because i don't agree with you, doesn't mean i took it personally or am upset... it just means i don't agree with you...
we will just have to agree to disagree that ALL players, even future HoFers, are equally TO-like locker room cancers if they make a suggestion about a play that might work to a HC...
and all HCs, even ones like linehan (who karraker just this week called probably the worst HC in rams history), are automatically & by definition in the right if they respond with sneering, snot-nosed responses...
i just think that, when you make counterintuitive, contrarian, controversial statements (such as holt, one of the most respected players in franchise history, is a locker room cancer, and linehan, who will live in rams infamy, was faultless & beyond reproach in his handling of veterans), you should expect to get questions about it...
i'll try one last time to explain why i don't agree with you, not because i am taking this personally or upset, but just in the interest of clarification (& hopefully you'll read & address a shorter response)...
holt is about to be released, & it has to do with the fact that he is aging, may have a bad knee, is in decline, makes $7-8 million per year, is likely to underperform said contract, probably refusing to restructure, may want to play for a team with a better chance of winning (how much time does he have left realistically?) & doesn't fit in with the rams new youth movement & rebuild... it will have very little (if anything) to do with politics, or a perception that he is a locker room cancer, ala TO...
i'm not sure where holt will end up, what kind of demand he will elicit or how much of a salary he can command, but imo, if some franchises pass on him, it will be because of the above reasons (aging, bad knee, declining skills, expensive, etc), & have little or nothing to do with a widespread perception around the league that he is a TO-like locker room cancer...
just for the record, if you took a poll in the SP, what percentage of people do you think would agree with you that holt is a TO-like locker room cancer (or specifically dogged it to get linehan fired), & linehan was faultless in how he dealt with rams veterans?
after all, maybe you are right... if we started a spinoff thread, & the majority of the thread contributors sided with you, i would happily stand corrected...
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