What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Torture - For or Against? (1 Viewer)

For the worst criminals (described in OP) are you for or against Torture?

  • For Torture

    Votes: 47 30.7%
  • Against Torture

    Votes: 106 69.3%

  • Total voters
    153
Nobody ever expects the Spanish inquisition.

As a means of punishment, always no. That should be fairly obvious As a means of interrogation, always no. It's not effective, you are just as likely to get false information.

It's funny, we often see iTough guys talk about how they would mete out punishment. Frankly, it's not very nuanced thinking. That's not going to allow you to move on from tragic loss. Looks good in action flick though, highly satisfying in that genre.

I recently read about a man in Farmington Hills, MI, who lost his wife and two children to a car crash caused by a drunk driver. That was nine years ago. It was the defining moment of his life. Most of us won't (hopefully) have to contend with sudden loss, but I found his story remarkable. He was able to move on with his life and find peace only once he forgave the man the killed his family. I really don't care if you have any religious sentiment, I think this is fascinating conceptually. It certainly resonates with me that you have to find a way to be able to let go of past wrongs or it destroys you.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120401/COL10/204010497/Man-who-lost-his-family-finds-forgiveness-gives-him-peace

This guy, Gary Weinstein, is one of the subjects in two documentaries coming out this year. One is called Project Forgive. Not sure I will see that as I haven't seen any screenings scheduled for around here, but I am going to see him in another documentary called Transforming Loss. It will be shown at the NYCFF in early July. I am really inspired by people who demonstrate grace in the midst of tragedy. I'd like to think I am capable of that, but I'm not so sure. It's pretty extraordinary.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/02/michigan-film-grief/1805505/

While these are pretty heavy subjects, I think it's something worth exploring. All of us, at one time or another, have to deal with grief.

Related - this is another article along those lines, about the perspective of two Florida families involved in a murder case. Long read (from NYT Magazine) but really an incredible, amazing story. A young man shot his fiance, and then turned himself in. The victim didn't die immediately. The father of the killer went to the hospital before he visited his son in jail. Much later, both families, a mediator, the DA and community representatives met in this thing they call a restorative-justice circle. It didn't replace the sentencing or pre-trial plea process, but it did influence it. While practical application might be very limited, in this instance it had an incredible effect on both families and the boyfriend who committed the crime. Anyway, worth your time but you'll probably want to read it later.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/06/magazine/can-forgiveness-play-a-role-in-criminal-justice.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Alright, back to the regularly schtick, sorry for the interruption.

 
The best argument for torture I have heard is the ticking bomb- Jack Bauer confronts the terrorist, and there is a nuclear bomb about to go off in a major city, so Jack starts breaking fingers to learn where the bomb is.

Although this scenario is extremely unlikely in real life, it could present, at least IMO, the one set of circumstances in which torture is not only justified but a moral necessity.
So, now you have two scenarios where you are ok with torture - are you still voting that you are against? I'm just saying it seems inconsistent. I understand your comment about being irrational in the moment but right now no one is doing anything to our families and I think we both agree we would be in favor - i don't see how that's a vote for "Against".
True, but the scenario I just came up with, while omnipresent in fiction, has never happened in real life to the best of my knowledge. Nor has my family been affected. So I can assert with 100% conviction that there is no ACTUAL example of torture which I am aware of, throughout human history, which I would approve of.
I wouldn't be surprised if I learned torture was used to prevent some sort of attack.
 
what I get is tim could see himself torturing people in certain instances but not putting them to death. Wouldn't death be more humane?

 
The best argument for torture I have heard is the ticking bomb- Jack Bauer confronts the terrorist, and there is a nuclear bomb about to go off in a major city, so Jack starts breaking fingers to learn where the bomb is.

Although this scenario is extremely unlikely in real life, it could present, at least IMO, the one set of circumstances in which torture is not only justified but a moral necessity.
So, now you have two scenarios where you are ok with torture - are you still voting that you are against? I'm just saying it seems inconsistent. I understand your comment about being irrational in the moment but right now no one is doing anything to our families and I think we both agree we would be in favor - i don't see how that's a vote for "Against".
True, but the scenario I just came up with, while omnipresent in fiction, has never happened in real life to the best of my knowledge. Nor has my family been affected. So I can assert with 100% conviction that there is no ACTUAL example of torture which I am aware of, throughout human history, which I would approve of.
I wouldn't be surprised if I learned torture was used to prevent some sort of attack.
Every time someone has said that it did it turns out that the info came from numerous untortured sources and that the torture aspect really brought nothing new to the table. Guys that interrogate for a living will tell you torture is useless, psychology is the winner here.

 
The ticking time bomb thing is such a stupid example. Those situations simply don't occur very often, if ever. It's just a way to sneak the camels nose under the tent. And even if it did occur why would a guy not give you the wrong info? You stop and he gains just enough time while you run down his story for it to actually go off. This isn't hack writing 101 it's real world stuff.
A lot of laws are just based on one outrageous example.

 
The best argument for torture I have heard is the ticking bomb- Jack Bauer confronts the terrorist, and there is a nuclear bomb about to go off in a major city, so Jack starts breaking fingers to learn where the bomb is.

Although this scenario is extremely unlikely in real life, it could present, at least IMO, the one set of circumstances in which torture is not only justified but a moral necessity.
So, now you have two scenarios where you are ok with torture - are you still voting that you are against? I'm just saying it seems inconsistent. I understand your comment about being irrational in the moment but right now no one is doing anything to our families and I think we both agree we would be in favor - i don't see how that's a vote for "Against".
True, but the scenario I just came up with, while omnipresent in fiction, has never happened in real life to the best of my knowledge. Nor has my family been affected. So I can assert with 100% conviction that there is no ACTUAL example of torture which I am aware of, throughout human history, which I would approve of.
I wouldn't be surprised if I learned torture was used to prevent some sort of attack.
Every time someone has said that it did it turns out that the info came from numerous untortured sources and that the torture aspect really brought nothing new to the table. Guys that interrogate for a living will tell you torture is useless, psychology is the winner here.
I agree with this. I guess I lump physical and psychological "torture" together.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The ticking time bomb thing is such a stupid example. Those situations simply don't occur very often, if ever. It's just a way to sneak the camels nose under the tent. And even if it did occur why would a guy not give you the wrong info? You stop and he gains just enough time while you run down his story for it to actually go off. This isn't hack writing 101 it's real world stuff.
Why would he not give you false info? Because he doesn't want tortured any more.

 
The ticking time bomb thing is such a stupid example. Those situations simply don't occur very often, if ever. It's just a way to sneak the camels nose under the tent. And even if it did occur why would a guy not give you the wrong info? You stop and he gains just enough time while you run down his story for it to actually go off. This isn't hack writing 101 it's real world stuff.
Why would he not give you false info? Because he doesn't want tortured any more.
Since you wouldn't know it was wrong why would you keep going? It only has to make you waste a small amount of time to allow the ticking time bomb to go off. Ask professional intelligence guys and they will tell you torture is a waste.

 
The iToughguy angle always reminds me of the bomb scene in the Dark Knight. Regular guy stands up like a big man and says "So no one wants to get their hands dirty? Guess I'll do it." Then at the moment of truth he chickens out and hides his head down in shame.

 
The ticking time bomb thing is such a stupid example. Those situations simply don't occur very often, if ever. It's just a way to sneak the camels nose under the tent. And even if it did occur why would a guy not give you the wrong info? You stop and he gains just enough time while you run down his story for it to actually go off. This isn't hack writing 101 it's real world stuff.
Why would he not give you false info? Because he doesn't want tortured any more.
Since you wouldn't know it was wrong why would you keep going? It only has to make you waste a small amount of time to allow the ticking time bomb to go off. Ask professional intelligence guys and they will tell you torture is a waste.
Ask questions you already know the answer to down?
 
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.

 
The iToughguy angle always reminds me of the bomb scene in the Dark Knight. Regular guy stands up like a big man and says "So no one wants to get their hands dirty? Guess I'll do it." Then at the moment of truth he chickens out and hides his head down in shame.
Who's playing a tough guy angle? I'm not going to reread the thread but I don't recall anyone saying they would do the torture themselves. I know I wouldn't or doubt seriously I could but I'm ok with the idea of someone else doing it.

 
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.
Not trying to play tough guy angle here, but more wanted to point out that if something actually happened to a family member, you may think differently if given this option. Especially if this option was right after the fact, while everything is still boiled up.

 
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.
Not trying to play tough guy angle here, but more wanted to point out that if something actually happened to a family member, you may think differently if given this option. Especially if this option was right after the fact, while everything is still boiled up.
I don't think Gustavo Fring would have any moral qualms about torture, but he would probably consider it pointless and inefficient.
 
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.
Not trying to play tough guy angle here, but more wanted to point out that if something actually happened to a family member, you may think differently if given this option. Especially if this option was right after the fact, while everything is still boiled up.
I don't think Gustavo Fring would have any moral qualms about torture, but he would probably consider it pointless and inefficient.
Boxcutter. Fast and efficient.

 
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.
Not trying to play tough guy angle here, but more wanted to point out that if something actually happened to a family member, you may think differently if given this option. Especially if this option was right after the fact, while everything is still boiled up.
I don't think Gustavo Fring would have any moral qualms about torture, but he would probably consider it pointless and inefficient.
 
Would love for the police to have the ability to torture to get the answers they want.

Imagine how fun routine traffic stops could become.

/sarcasm

 
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.
Not trying to play tough guy angle here, but more wanted to point out that if something actually happened to a family member, you may think differently if given this option. Especially if this option was right after the fact, while everything is still boiled up.
I don't think Gustavo Fring would have any moral qualms about torture, but he would probably consider it pointless and inefficient.
Boxcutter. Fast and efficient.
I think the mods should rename you "Gustavo Fring Fan" so that nobody confuses you with the real guy.
 
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.
Not trying to play tough guy angle here, but more wanted to point out that if something actually happened to a family member, you may think differently if given this option. Especially if this option was right after the fact, while everything is still boiled up.
I don't think Gustavo Fring would have any moral qualms about torture, but he would probably consider it pointless and inefficient.
Boxcutter. Fast and efficient.
Or poison. Either way, torture didn't really seem to be his game.

 
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.
Not trying to play tough guy angle here, but more wanted to point out that if something actually happened to a family member, you may think differently if given this option. Especially if this option was right after the fact, while everything is still boiled up.
I don't think Gustavo Fring would have any moral qualms about torture, but he would probably consider it pointless and inefficient.
Boxcutter. Fast and efficient.
I think the mods should rename you "Gustavo Fring Fan" so that nobody confuses you with the real guy.
Since I voted "For" in this hypothetical thread. Maybe the mods should just change my name to "Ramsey Bolton"

 
The ticking time bomb thing is such a stupid example. Those situations simply don't occur very often, if ever. It's just a way to sneak the camels nose under the tent. And even if it did occur why would a guy not give you the wrong info? You stop and he gains just enough time while you run down his story for it to actually go off. This isn't hack writing 101 it's real world stuff.
Why would he not give you false info? Because he doesn't want tortured any more.
Since you wouldn't know it was wrong why would you keep going? It only has to make you waste a small amount of time to allow the ticking time bomb to go off. Ask professional intelligence guys and they will tell you torture is a waste.
Ask questions you already know the answer to down?
If you know where the bomb is then why would you need to torture anyone?

 
The ticking time bomb thing is such a stupid example. Those situations simply don't occur very often, if ever. It's just a way to sneak the camels nose under the tent. And even if it did occur why would a guy not give you the wrong info? You stop and he gains just enough time while you run down his story for it to actually go off. This isn't hack writing 101 it's real world stuff.
Why would he not give you false info? Because he doesn't want tortured any more.
Since you wouldn't know it was wrong why would you keep going? It only has to make you waste a small amount of time to allow the ticking time bomb to go off. Ask professional intelligence guys and they will tell you torture is a waste.
Ask questions you already know the answer to down?
If you know where the bomb is then why would you need to torture anyone?
Deactivation code?
 
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.
Not trying to play tough guy angle here, but more wanted to point out that if something actually happened to a family member, you may think differently if given this option. Especially if this option was right after the fact, while everything is still boiled up.
I don't think Gustavo Fring would have any moral qualms about torture, but he would probably consider it pointless and inefficient.
Boxcutter. Fast and efficient.
I think the mods should rename you "Gustavo Fring Fan" so that nobody confuses you with the real guy.
Since I voted "For" in this hypothetical thread. Maybe the mods should just change my name to "Ramsey Bolton"
First off, it would have to be "Ramsey Snow". And second, it would have to be "Ramsey Snow fan" so that nobody thinks you're the real guy. And third, cutting off somebody's **** is extreme even for torturers.

 
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.
Not trying to play tough guy angle here, but more wanted to point out that if something actually happened to a family member, you may think differently if given this option. Especially if this option was right after the fact, while everything is still boiled up.
I don't think Gustavo Fring would have any moral qualms about torture, but he would probably consider it pointless and inefficient.
Boxcutter. Fast and efficient.
I think the mods should rename you "Gustavo Fring Fan" so that nobody confuses you with the real guy.
Since I voted "For" in this hypothetical thread. Maybe the mods should just change my name to "Ramsey Bolton"
First off, it would have to be "Ramsey Snow". And second, it would have to be "Ramsey Snow fan" so that nobody thinks you're the real guy. And third, cutting off somebody's **** is extreme even for torturers.
Sorry, I don't read the books, only watch the show. ;) Agree, Ramsey SNOW takes it over the top on the torturing.

 
The ticking time bomb thing is such a stupid example. Those situations simply don't occur very often, if ever. It's just a way to sneak the camels nose under the tent. And even if it did occur why would a guy not give you the wrong info? You stop and he gains just enough time while you run down his story for it to actually go off. This isn't hack writing 101 it's real world stuff.
Why would he not give you false info? Because he doesn't want tortured any more.
Since you wouldn't know it was wrong why would you keep going? It only has to make you waste a small amount of time to allow the ticking time bomb to go off. Ask professional intelligence guys and they will tell you torture is a waste.
I'd keep going once I found out the info given was wrong. If the bomb had already gone off, he'd be dead, like the victims of the bomb. He would have been informed of what would happen if his info was wrong.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Love how some people think that it would be so easy to torture and/or kill someone under any circumstance.

 
If they did something to my family or friends I'd have zero trouble beating the #### out of them. I doubt I could sit there and pull their fingers nails off with pliers though but I'd be happy for someone else to do it.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally want to say No but if someone raped my daughter, I would gladly be the one to slowly skin him. So I guess the answer for me is Yes.

 
Against. 2 wrongs don't make it right. I'm on the fence about the death penalty as well. Many folks who commit heinous crimes against their fellow man do not want to live. So to take them out, you are doing them a favor imo. I think life sentence in prison without the possibility of parole and priviledges some prisoners get for good behavior and such is torture for these folks.

Torture just makes the person angrier and will 2-fold the terror should he get free. If the person is not able to be rehabbed back into society, prison is the answer.

 
Love how some people think that it would be so easy to torture and/or kill someone under any circumstance.
It's not under any circumstance. People have clearly enunciated the circumstances.


Originally want to say No but if someone raped my daughter, I would gladly be the one to slowly skin him. So I guess the answer for me is Yes.
If a family member was murdered, raped, etc...I would be the first person in line waiting to torture that SOB. It should be up to that victim's immediate family (or victim if survived) what should be done.
 
Originally want to say No but if someone raped my daughter, I would gladly be the one to slowly skin him. So I guess the answer for me is Yes.
I doubt that. Putting a bullet in his head I would believe, heck I could see myself doing it in the heat of the moment, but I find the notion of a slow torture to be highly unlikely for all but the most deranged minds (yes I think the U.S. government employs plenty of deranged minds) and we would be better served if those people were behind bars with the rapists.

 
Love how some people think that it would be so easy to torture and/or kill someone under any circumstance.
It's not under any circumstance. People have clearly enunciated the circumstances.
"Under any circumstances" covers those circumstances (as well as any others) and I stand by my comment.

Killin' and a-rapin' and a-pillagin' and a-torturin' and a-thievin' and a-cattle rustlin' is not nearly as simple as some people think it would be.

I have no problem if you tell me that you would kill a person as a crime of passion (i.e. in the heat of the moment) but when you tell me that you can sit down with your Dexter Morgan Starter Kit and start hacking away body parts I begin to doubt if you understand what that would truly be like.

 
Against. 2 wrongs don't make it right. I'm on the fence about the death penalty as well. Many folks who commit heinous crimes against their fellow man do not want to live. So to take them out, you are doing them a favor imo. I think life sentence in prison without the possibility of parole and priviledges some prisoners get for good behavior and such is torture for these folks.

Torture just makes the person angrier and will 2-fold the terror should he get free. If the person is not able to be rehabbed back into society, prison is the answer.
If life in prison is torture, then you are FOR! :)

It is your opinion that it is '2 wrongs'. I think if you get what you deserve, it is not a 'wrong'. Some people may disagree on what is deserved. In other words, I believe an even exchange is fair. If you brutally rape and murder a family of 4 and are put in prison for life, I do not believe it was a fair and even exchange. You got the good end of that deal! Nothing could be fair in that instance of course, but we could get a little closer. I don't consider it 'wrong'. I consider it fair.

 
Love how some people think that it would be so easy to torture and/or kill someone under any circumstance.
It's not under any circumstance. People have clearly enunciated the circumstances.
"Under any circumstances" covers those circumstances (as well as any others) and I stand by my comment.

Killin' and a-rapin' and a-pillagin' and a-torturin' and a-thievin' and a-cattle rustlin' is not nearly as simple as some people think it would be.

I have no problem if you tell me that you would kill a person as a crime of passion (i.e. in the heat of the moment) but when you tell me that you can sit down with your Dexter Morgan Starter Kit and start hacking away body parts I begin to doubt if you understand what that would truly be like.
Some people could do it and some couldn't. I'm fine with hiring a Dexter.

 
Love how some people think that it would be so easy to torture and/or kill someone under any circumstance.
It's not under any circumstance. People have clearly enunciated the circumstances.
"Under any circumstances" covers those circumstances (as well as any others) and I stand by my comment.

Killin' and a-rapin' and a-pillagin' and a-torturin' and a-thievin' and a-cattle rustlin' is not nearly as simple as some people think it would be.

I have no problem if you tell me that you would kill a person as a crime of passion (i.e. in the heat of the moment) but when you tell me that you can sit down with your Dexter Morgan Starter Kit and start hacking away body parts I begin to doubt if you understand what that would truly be like.
Some people could do it and some couldn't. I'm fine with hiring a Dexter.
Are you fine with being Dexter? I think if we are going to walk this path you shouldn't be allowed to "fire and forget" (OP can I get a ruling?). If you want someone tortured you should be the one who has to get up close and personal, not pay someone to handle the work you find to be too unsavory.

 
Against. 2 wrongs don't make it right. I'm on the fence about the death penalty as well. Many folks who commit heinous crimes against their fellow man do not want to live. So to take them out, you are doing them a favor imo. I think life sentence in prison without the possibility of parole and priviledges some prisoners get for good behavior and such is torture for these folks.

Torture just makes the person angrier and will 2-fold the terror should he get free. If the person is not able to be rehabbed back into society, prison is the answer.
If life in prison is torture, then you are FOR! :)

It is your opinion that it is '2 wrongs'. I think if you get what you deserve, it is not a 'wrong'. Some people may disagree on what is deserved. In other words, I believe an even exchange is fair. If you brutally rape and murder a family of 4 and are put in prison for life, I do not believe it was a fair and even exchange. You got the good end of that deal! Nothing could be fair in that instance of course, but we could get a little closer. I don't consider it 'wrong'. I consider it fair.
I meant torture in the physical sense. I agree with Chaka. I can see the heat of the moment killing when say a father finds out who killed his daughter and I don't hold it against him when the emotions are raw. But anyone who is actually able to go through hours of slowly killing someone to me means you are almost as bad as him.

I've had a terrible wrong done to me years ago. If my dad would have found out, he would have hunted him down. While that would have been so satisfying for me at that young age, no way was I going to unleash what was certain to happen. I forgave awhile back and feel so much better. You don't forget but you should forgive. That was a hell no in the beginning but the anger and hatred you carry every day is worse. My dad may have felt better shooting this guy for awhile, but being he's a very good person, he would have been haunted by this act no matter what led him to this.

I know this guy. I know he has a good job and lives a good life. I don't wish him ill will. I believe he will meet our maker when he dies and have to answer to his crime and that's all I need to know. I'm at peace and never regret not telling my dad or any family member what happened to me. This dies with me.

 
Against. 2 wrongs don't make it right. I'm on the fence about the death penalty as well. Many folks who commit heinous crimes against their fellow man do not want to live. So to take them out, you are doing them a favor imo. I think life sentence in prison without the possibility of parole and priviledges some prisoners get for good behavior and such is torture for these folks.

Torture just makes the person angrier and will 2-fold the terror should he get free. If the person is not able to be rehabbed back into society, prison is the answer.
If life in prison is torture, then you are FOR! :)

It is your opinion that it is '2 wrongs'. I think if you get what you deserve, it is not a 'wrong'. Some people may disagree on what is deserved. In other words, I believe an even exchange is fair. If you brutally rape and murder a family of 4 and are put in prison for life, I do not believe it was a fair and even exchange. You got the good end of that deal! Nothing could be fair in that instance of course, but we could get a little closer. I don't consider it 'wrong'. I consider it fair.
I meant torture in the physical sense. I agree with Chaka. I can see the heat of the moment killing when say a father finds out who killed his daughter and I don't hold it against him when the emotions are raw. But anyone who is actually able to go through hours of slowly killing someone to me means you are almost as bad as him.

I've had a terrible wrong done to me years ago. If my dad would have found out, he would have hunted him down. While that would have been so satisfying for me at that young age, no way was I going to unleash what was certain to happen. I forgave awhile back and feel so much better. You don't forget but you should forgive. That was a hell no in the beginning but the anger and hatred you carry every day is worse. My dad may have felt better shooting this guy for awhile, but being he's a very good person, he would have been haunted by this act no matter what led him to this.

I know this guy. I know he has a good job and lives a good life. I don't wish him ill will. I believe he will meet our maker when he dies and have to answer to his crime and that's all I need to know. I'm at peace and never regret not telling my dad or any family member what happened to me.

At least a pretty good clubbing.

.
 
If America does it, it is a noble deed required to protect the safety of our citizens. If another country does it, then it is a cruel, unjustifiable, inhumane act that should be condemned by all. Don't you see the difference? Duh.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
Wow it didn't take much for you to go from being in favor of torturing rapists and murderers to being in favor of torturing people with documented mental health issues because they are insensitive jerks.
Meh. Mental health issue or not, if you call two families of the Sandy Hook massacre and tell them that their children never existed, you should be punched in the face at the very least.
 
fantasycurse42 said:
Wow it didn't take much for you to go from being in favor of torturing rapists and murderers to being in favor of torturing people with documented mental health issues because they are insensitive jerks.
Meh. Mental health issue or not, if you call two families of the Sandy Hook massacre and tell them that their children never existed, you should be punched in the face at the very least.
Seriously! These people suffered beyond what most of us could imagine... Then someone destroys the playground in their childs honor and calls them to throw it in their face.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top