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Trump campaign officials, led by Rudy Giuliani, oversaw fake electors plot in 7 states (1 Viewer)

Coach Beard

Footballguy
dozer said:
Democratic Rep. Mark Pocan is urging Attorney General Merrick Garland to investigate the ten Republicans who fraudulently claimed to be electors from Wisconsin in an attempt to overturn the 2020 election.
I was wondering what might be the fate of the electors on the forged documents.  Some probably had their names added without their consent, but at least one of the forgeries (I think Arizona’s) had an elector list that didn’t match what the party had previously determined.  So somewhere during the process, the electors were aware of what was going on and at least one opted out.  

 

Philo Beddoe

Footballguy
End of story? Dude, you are in like the first chapter of The Stand.
And when it turns into a big nothingburger like every other political which hunt since forever? What will the point of this be for other than creating more division? We all are getting rabid click-baited by the 4th estate 🤷

 

roadkill1292

Footballguy
Saw a theory elsewhere that Trump supporters have been emboldened by previous lack of meaningful opposition and deterrence. McConnell fiddles with Supreme Court nominations, no ramifications for it. Trump asks a foreign leader to smear a political opponent, the Senate shoots cover for him. POTUS routinely violates the Hatch Act, the media barely notices.

So why not try an end run around the election results? Nobody has stopped us before. What if we just.......didn't?

 

dozer

Footballguy
And when it turns into a big nothingburger like every other political which hunt since forever? What will the point of this be for other than creating more division? We all are getting rabid click-baited by the 4th estate 🤷
What do you think should happen to those who planned the violence on J6?

 

2Squirrels1Nut

Footballguy
Saw a theory elsewhere that Trump supporters have been emboldened by previous lack of meaningful opposition and deterrence. McConnell fiddles with Supreme Court nominations, no ramifications for it. Trump asks a foreign leader to smear a political opponent, the Senate shoots cover for him. POTUS routinely violates the Hatch Act, the media barely notices.

So why not try an end run around the election results? Nobody has stopped us before. What if we just.......didn't?
Pretty much exactly what I'm thinking. Unless there's an overwhelming amount of elected republicans that fight to prosecute these traitors, this country as we knew it is over.  They will keep grabbing, stealing, power until they have it all.  

Then what? 

 

massraider

Footballguy
And when it turns into a big nothingburger like every other political which hunt since forever? What will the point of this be for other than creating more division? We all are getting rabid click-baited by the 4th estate 🤷
Lack of punishment isn't some sort of decider on whether or not the actions were honorable. 

The clickbait is CRT, and Fox News talking about M+Ms. You have it literally backwards. 

This is the actual news people should be upset about. 

 

massraider

Footballguy
🚨 Boris Epshteyn, one of Rudy Giuliani's associates, just admitted, on national TV that everything regarding the alternate electors was done "under the leadership of Rudy Giuliani."

 

roadkill1292

Footballguy
Donald Trump Attorney Hall Of Fame

Roy Cohn 1

Michael Cohen 1,3,4,6

Rudy Giuliani 2,3,5,6,7

Sidney Powell 2,5,6

Victoria Toensing 2,3,5,6

Jenna Ellis 2,5,6

1 disbarred

2 disbarment formally requested by court

3 office raided by FBI

4 convicted

5 election fraud

6 unpaid

7 farted 

https://t.co/xvE3vNGOH0
This is awesome but another category, "ordered by the House Committee to turn over documents and phone records," might also be needed.

 

BladeRunner

Footballguy
Do you need some assistance disputing everything?

I can play on your team for awhile, after all I am an independent or in FL we're known as a "no party affililiate".


"independent" in the FBG forums mostly means "Actually a liberal, but pretending to be an independent".

Besides, it would be better if we just combined the 1/6 hyperbole threads all into one.  I'm doing this for YOU guys, so you can keep all your thoughts together in one thread.  :thumbup:

 
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Joe Mammy

Footballguy
Donald Trump Attorney Hall Of Fame

Roy Cohn 1

Michael Cohen 1,3,4,6

Rudy Giuliani 2,3,5,6,7

Sidney Powell 2,5,6

Victoria Toensing 2,3,5,6

Jenna Ellis 2,5,6

1 disbarred

2 disbarment formally requested by court

3 office raided by FBI

4 convicted

5 election fraud

6 unpaid

7 farted 

https://t.co/xvE3vNGOH0
That's some crackerjack work there but what makes you think that Cohn was paid?

 

Joe Mammy

Footballguy
"independent" in the FBG forums mostly means "Actually a liberal, but pretending to be an independent".

Besides, it would be better if we just combined the 1/6 hyperbole threads all into one.  I'm doing this for YOU guys, so you can keep all your thoughts together in one thread.  :thumbup:
Oh I'm very liberal. No doubt. And there is no pretending that I'm not a card carrying NPA.  I'm formerly a republican but never a conservative. 

In fact I would be willing to bet that most indys are libs. 

 

GordonGekko

Footballguy
What do you think should happen to those who planned the violence on J6?


If you want to see people charged, put on trial, convicted and formally punished, you'll need to

1) Specify whom you are talking about.

2) Discuss the crimes you believe they have committed ( I mean crimes that actually exist in our current legal system, not random repeated phrases from shock marketing social media clickbait ) Devlyn Thompson was charged, tried, convicted and sentenced for assaulting a peace officer with a dangerous weapon. That's an example.

3) Explain an actual legal pathway towards supporting why they should be charged, tried, convicted and formally punished.

I will always give you credit for at least making a cursory attempt to source out your positions and being persistent about them. That's at least some effort being put forth and there's some merit to that.

But you consistently are demanding formal punishment for those involved in J6 without accepting that requires some kind of legal pathway to do so. You can't just conjure up crimes that don't actually exist out of thin air and declare people guilty on the spot.

Ask a better question and you put yourself in a position to get a better set of answers.

Just repeating activist complicit MSM tag lines and you'll keep getting what you have been getting so far. But maybe that's all you actually want out of this.

 

BladeRunner

Footballguy
If you want to see people charged, put on trial, convicted and formally punished, you'll need to

1) Specify whom you are talking about.

2) Discuss the crimes you believe they have committed ( I mean crimes that actually exist in our current legal system, not random repeated phrases from shock marketing social media clickbait ) Devlyn


Thompson


was charged, tried, convicted and sentenced for assaulting a peace officer with a dangerous weapon. That's an example.

3) Explain an actual legal pathway towards supporting why they should be charged, tried, convicted and formally punished.

I will always give you credit for at least making a cursory attempt to source out your positions and being persistent about them. That's at least some effort being put forth and there's some merit to that.

But you consistently are demanding formal punishment for those involved in J6 without accepting that requires some kind of legal pathway to do so. You can't just conjure up crimes that don't actually exist out of thin air and declare people guilty on the spot.

Ask a better question and you put yourself in a position to get a better set of answers.

Just repeating activist complicit MSM tag lines and you'll keep getting what you have been getting so far. But maybe that's all you actually want out of this.


The 1/6 Hyperbole CrewTM only wants the red meat.  Besides, that red meat has got electrolytes - it's what they crave!

 
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joffer

Footballguy
Eastman wasn’t the only Trump ally pushing the ridiculous and illegal plan to subvert the electoral outcome.

Retired Lt. General Michael Flynn associate, Lt. Col. Ivan Raiklin had a similar plan…

“Before former President Donald Trump enlisted lawyer John Eastman to help him persuade Vice President Mike Pence to subvert the electoral outcome, an Army Reserves lieutenant colonel associated with retired Lt. General Michael Flynn promoted a fanciful legal theory that the vice president held the power to set aside Biden electors from states narrowly won by the Democratic nominee.”
it’s truly surreal that guy was the National Security Adviser

 

McBokonon

YOI!!!
Saw a theory elsewhere that Trump supporters have been emboldened by previous lack of meaningful opposition and deterrence. McConnell fiddles with Supreme Court nominations, no ramifications for it. Trump asks a foreign leader to smear a political opponent, the Senate shoots cover for him. POTUS routinely violates the Hatch Act, the media barely notices.

So why not try an end run around the election results? Nobody has stopped us before. What if we just.......didn't?
This is what Kasparov has been saying the entire West has been doing wrong with Putin and what dictators (or those with autocratic tendencies) generally do - they push and push and push when they see there’s no repercussions. In Putin’s case, you get Crimea and potentially Ukraine because the West just kind of did nothing when he threw up prior trial balloons. When half the country nothingburgers these deplorable MAGA actions here, they’ll just keep going and going, too. Why wouldn’t they?

 

roadkill1292

Footballguy
This is what Kasparov has been saying the entire West has been doing wrong with Putin and what dictators (or those with autocratic tendencies) generally do - they push and push and push when they see there’s no repercussions. In Putin’s case, you get Crimea and potentially Ukraine because the West just kind of did nothing when he threw up prior trial balloons. When half the country nothingburgers these deplorable MAGA actions here, they’ll just keep going and going, too. Why wouldn’t they?
Keep grabbing for more, constantly, little by little, all the while claiming that your opponents are crying about nothing. Accuse Dems of doing things that you're actually doing. Wave the flag as furiously as you can.

It's a fairly solid playbook from a strategic point of view. Tried and true in autocracies everywhere.

 

James Daulton

Footballguy
Keep grabbing for more, constantly, little by little, all the while claiming that your opponents are crying about nothing. Accuse Dems of doing things that you're actually doing. Wave the flag as furiously as you can.

It's a fairly solid playbook from a strategic point of view. Tried and true in autocracies everywhere.
And yet Trump would still get a massive amount of votes despite all we've learned about how hard he tried to overturn the election.  It's incredible to think about what's going on in our country.  I really don't know how we recover even when Trump is mercifully out of the picture. 

 

massraider

Footballguy
And yet Trump would still get a massive amount of votes despite all we've learned about how hard he tried to overturn the election.  It's incredible to think about what's going on in our country.  I really don't know how we recover even when Trump is mercifully out of the picture. 
The people who would vote for him haven't learned anything.

They are insulated from facts by their Facebook feed.

 

Sabertooth

Footballguy
If you want to see people charged, put on trial, convicted and formally punished, you'll need to

1) Specify whom you are talking about.

2) Discuss the crimes you believe they have committed ( I mean crimes that actually exist in our current legal system, not random repeated phrases from shock marketing social media clickbait ) Devlyn Thompson was charged, tried, convicted and sentenced for assaulting a peace officer with a dangerous weapon. That's an example.

3) Explain an actual legal pathway towards supporting why they should be charged, tried, convicted and formally punished.

I will always give you credit for at least making a cursory attempt to source out your positions and being persistent about them. That's at least some effort being put forth and there's some merit to that.

But you consistently are demanding formal punishment for those involved in J6 without accepting that requires some kind of legal pathway to do so. You can't just conjure up crimes that don't actually exist out of thin air and declare people guilty on the spot.

Ask a better question and you put yourself in a position to get a better set of answers.

Just repeating activist complicit MSM tag lines and you'll keep getting what you have been getting so far. But maybe that's all you actually want out of this.
Why would anyone go through all that work to convince you of something?  Im

 

roadkill1292

Footballguy
And yet Trump would still get a massive amount of votes despite all we've learned about how hard he tried to overturn the election.  It's incredible to think about what's going on in our country.  I really don't know how we recover even when Trump is mercifully out of the picture. 
We've learned that we're not the exceptional people we've always thought we were. We're just as prone to reactionaryism and appeals for non-democratic norms as others. Maybe even worse, we have a constitution that allows for minority power without the use of actual force.

Mitch and the gang may think themselves clever by continually bending and stretching the rules to keep majorities from governing but the reality is that he's caught a tiger by the tail.

 

MAC_32

Footballguy
Oh I'm very liberal. No doubt. And there is no pretending that I'm not a card carrying NPA.  I'm formerly a republican but never a conservative. 

In fact I would be willing to bet that most indys are libs. 
Independent means exactly what it says it means - independent. Not republican and not democrat. That's the right place to be given our current environment. 

 

Coach Beard

Footballguy
Politico coverage of the elector forgeries

Much of the article is material already covered in the thread, but there’s a mention of a second forgery from Arizona.

”POLITICO also obtained records indicating that National Archives investigators pursued a case of potential fraud against a second slate of would-be Trump electors in Arizona who identified themselves as “sovereign citizens.” An Archives inspector general official said the agency declined to comment on “ongoing” work.”

The National Archives is investigating this second Arizona one because it used the official seal of the state of Arizona on the forgery, a step the seven other known forgeries didn’t take.  
 

Likely means the group that put together this one wasn’t working with the group that made the other seven.  I’m not current on laws covering this kind of malfeasance, but I presume forging the official seal of a state on a forged document is a crime.  

 

dozer

Footballguy
The 59 Republicans Who Joined Electoral Voter Fraud Scheme For Trump Could Face Prison

NEW -- The Trump WH and campaign openly schemed about "alternate" slates of electors, but it was 59 state and local Republicans who actually attested that they were "duly elected and qualified" and signed their names to it.

That would be a felony.

“I believe it’s critical that the federal government fully investigates and prosecutes any unlawful actions in furtherance of any seditious conspiracy,” said Josh Kaul, attorney general of Wisconsin.

“This is a crime,” Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel told reporters earlier this month, adding that calling the elector slate “alternate” did a disservice and that it should be called a “false, counterfeit, fake slate of electors.”

Arizona, where 11 Republicans filed papers falsely claiming to be the state’s electors; Georgia, which had 16; and Nevada, which had six, account for the rest of the 59.

 

dozer

Footballguy
The 59 Republicans Who Joined Electoral Voter Fraud Scheme For Trump Could Face Prison

NEW -- The Trump WH and campaign openly schemed about "alternate" slates of electors, but it was 59 state and local Republicans who actually attested that they were "duly elected and qualified" and signed their names to it.

That would be a felony.

“I believe it’s critical that the federal government fully investigates and prosecutes any unlawful actions in furtherance of any seditious conspiracy,” said Josh Kaul, attorney general of Wisconsin.

“This is a crime,” Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel told reporters earlier this month, adding that calling the elector slate “alternate” did a disservice and that it should be called a “false, counterfeit, fake slate of electors.”

Arizona, where 11 Republicans filed papers falsely claiming to be the state’s electors; Georgia, which had 16; and Nevada, which had six, account for the rest of the 59.
Really good Twitter thread on this...

So while Rudy Giuliani and Steve Bannon and the Steven Miller and maybe Trump himself may ultimately face some accountability in this scheme, it's these low-level party activists who right now could be looking at charges that come with 20-year prison terms.

 

The Commish

Footballguy
The 59 Republicans Who Joined Electoral Voter Fraud Scheme For Trump Could Face Prison

NEW -- The Trump WH and campaign openly schemed about "alternate" slates of electors, but it was 59 state and local Republicans who actually attested that they were "duly elected and qualified" and signed their names to it.

That would be a felony.

“I believe it’s critical that the federal government fully investigates and prosecutes any unlawful actions in furtherance of any seditious conspiracy,” said Josh Kaul, attorney general of Wisconsin.

“This is a crime,” Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel told reporters earlier this month, adding that calling the elector slate “alternate” did a disservice and that it should be called a “false, counterfeit, fake slate of electors.”

Arizona, where 11 Republicans filed papers falsely claiming to be the state’s electors; Georgia, which had 16; and Nevada, which had six, account for the rest of the 59.
Good to know...I had asked about this in the other 1/6 thread (I think the one that they got locked).  Was wondering what would happen to these people.

 

2Squirrels1Nut

Footballguy
The 59 Republicans Who Joined Electoral Voter Fraud Scheme For Trump Could Face Prison

NEW -- The Trump WH and campaign openly schemed about "alternate" slates of electors, but it was 59 state and local Republicans who actually attested that they were "duly elected and qualified" and signed their names to it.

That would be a felony.

“I believe it’s critical that the federal government fully investigates and prosecutes any unlawful actions in furtherance of any seditious conspiracy,” said Josh Kaul, attorney general of Wisconsin.

“This is a crime,” Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel told reporters earlier this month, adding that calling the elector slate “alternate” did a disservice and that it should be called a “false, counterfeit, fake slate of electors.”

Arizona, where 11 Republicans filed papers falsely claiming to be the state’s electors; Georgia, which had 16; and Nevada, which had six, account for the rest of the 59.


With liberty and justice for all. 

ETA

It has been a while, but thank again for posting all of this information for us. 

 
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Dickies

Footballguy
Really good Twitter thread on this...

So while Rudy Giuliani and Steve Bannon and the Steven Miller and maybe Trump himself may ultimately face some accountability in this scheme, it's these low-level party activists who right now could be looking at charges that come with 20-year prison terms.
I hope the people at the top get even longer prison sentences, but like most of the other 1/6 stuff they’ll likely avoid prosecution.  Even though it’s a political crime, it will be seen as “too political” to go after them. 

 

Coach Beard

Footballguy
Really good Twitter thread on this...

So while Rudy Giuliani and Steve Bannon and the Steven Miller and maybe Trump himself may ultimately face some accountability in this scheme, it's these low-level party activists who right now could be looking at charges that come with 20-year prison terms.
That is a really good Twitter thread on this.  Thanks!  Hadn’t considered how many different felonies got racked up in this plot.  

Looking more and more like top people like Miller, Pence, even Trump knew about it.  Glad to see more highlighting of how Pence changed his script for the certification.

So even if the top campaign officials and the candidate weren’t involved in the planning or execution of the plot, it sure looks like they were aware of it.  And other than Pence pulling out before 1/6, there’s a big window where the top guys knew about this plot and didn’t do anything to stop it or alert people equipped to stop it.

 

supermike80

Footballguy
That is a really good Twitter thread on this.  Thanks!  Hadn’t considered how many different felonies got racked up in this plot.  

Looking more and more like top people like Miller, Pence, even Trump knew about it.  Glad to see more highlighting of how Pence changed his script for the certification.

So even if the top campaign officials and the candidate weren’t involved in the planning or execution of the plot, it sure looks like they were aware of it.  And other than Pence pulling out before 1/6, there’s a big window where the top guys knew about this plot and didn’t do anything to stop it or alert people equipped to stop it.
are we seriously saying "really good twitter feed" now?  Is that we are now reduced to as far as journalism goes?  My goodness.

 

2Squirrels1Nut

Footballguy
FBGLawyers, what are your thoughts on this? Does it really protect them from potential prosecution?  

Important to note, 5 Trump "electors" in New Mexico and 20 in Pennsylvania also sent up slates to DC, but included in their certifications language that made clear they would only be electors in the event a court ruling or other proceeding reversed the results in their states.

 

Joe Mammy

Footballguy
Looks like some pretty sound journalism to me:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The source of the scheme, however, was clear even as it was unfolding. The Trump White House was pushing it openly while outside adviser Steve Bannon was promoting it almost daily on his podcast. On the actual day of the Electoral College vote, top White House aide Stephen Miller laid it out it on a Fox News appearance.

“As we speak, an alternate slate of electors in the contested states is going to vote, and we are going to send those results to Congress,” Miller said.

Miller hung up Wednesday when contacted by HuffPost about that statement.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simple reporting actually, just parroting what they saw and heard on Fox and Bannon's podcast.

Quite a few upcoming felons, make room in the prisons.

 

Coach Beard

Footballguy
Looks like some pretty sound journalism to me:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The source of the scheme, however, was clear even as it was unfolding. The Trump White House was pushing it openly while outside adviser Steve Bannon was promoting it almost daily on his podcast. On the actual day of the Electoral College vote, top White House aide Stephen Miller laid it out it on a Fox News appearance.

“As we speak, an alternate slate of electors in the contested states is going to vote, and we are going to send those results to Congress,” Miller said.

Miller hung up Wednesday when contacted by HuffPost about that statement.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simple reporting actually, just parroting what they saw and heard on Fox and Bannon's podcast.

Quite a few upcoming felons, make room in the prisons.
A Senior Advisor to the President, his director of speechwriting, wasn’t just looking the other way at the plot.  He was fully aware of it and went on Fox News to highlight that it was happening and cheering it on. 

 

roadkill1292

Footballguy
Our posters here who are worried about "election security" could use a periodic chat at message boards who have substantial numbers of non-Americans. Spoiler: they all think we're idiots because we can't figure out how to have safe and easily accessible elections.

 

sho nuff

Footballguy
Our posters here who are worried about "election security" could use a periodic chat at message boards who have substantial numbers of non-Americans. Spoiler: they all think we're idiots because we can't figure out how to have safe and easily accessible elections.
Those who seem to worry so much about fraud and voter ID and all...don't seem to care much that this happened.

 

roadkill1292

Footballguy
This might also be the best of the current threads to express my dismay in Dems' apparent unwillingness to highlight the importance of structural election reform.

I was struck by a tweet this morning that said one of the problems with a duopoly where one party has authoritarian tendencies is that the other side is content to posture mostly as the resistance to authoritarianism instead of championing change that will actually improve representative democracy. 

We really need proportional representation but Dems trail the public interest almost as much as Republicans do (and we really don't have any serious expectations from the Pubbies at this point).

 

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