Two NFL rule questions (1 Viewer)

[Weapon of Mass Instruction]

1. Illegal motion -- Rule 7, Article 2, Section 6, Note 1:No player is ever permitted to be moving obliquely or directly forward toward his opponent's goal line at snap.

-- Peyton Manning, when in the shotgun, moves directly forward just prior to the snap almost at every shotgun snap. Miami does it frequently when in the wildcat. Why is this not flagged as illegal motion?

2. Illegal motion -- Rule 7, Article 2, Section 6:

At the snap, all offensive players must be stationary in their positions: a) without any movement of feet, head, or arms.

-- Colts' center, on silent count, was snapping his head sideways to signal to his linemen that he was about to snap the ball. How is this not a direct violation of this rule?* On another note, how does an NFL official reverse a ruling like Braylon's TD last night -- noting that his knee touched -- but fail to notice that he hadn't been touched so he was not down? Part 2 -- how does another ref not say, "hold on, yes his knee hit but he hadn't been touched"?

 

[vandyt]

On the first, I'd guess its a "spirit of the rule" issue, which is designed more to prevent the arena league type patterns WRs run.

On the 2nd, no clue.

 

[TommyGilmore]

* On another note, how does an NFL official reverse a ruling like Braylon's TD last night -- noting that his knee touched -- but fail to notice that he hadn't been touched so he was not down? Part 2 -- how does another ref not say, "hold on, yes his knee hit but he hadn't been touched"?

No clue but it's an excellent question. That was a terrible call by the replay official.

 

[stevegamer]

On #1 you said "just prior to snap" for Manning and the rule is "at snap". If having a QB moving forward pre-snap was illegal motion, you couldn't ever go under center from the shotgun. Nor could backs split out wide as receivers, or shift fromt he pro-set to the I. I am guessign the wildcat is similar, the player taking the snap is motionless at snap.

 

[Weapon of Mass Instruction]

On #1 you said "just prior to snap" for Manning and the rule is "at snap". If having a QB moving forward pre-snap was illegal motion, you couldn't ever go under center from the shotgun. Nor could backs split out wide as receivers, or shift fromt he pro-set to the I. I am guessign the wildcat is similar, the player taking the snap is motionless at snap.

You are correct, but that is not what I am asking. Peyton calls for the snap, then starts moving forward, then they snap the ball, and as he is continuing forward catches the snap.

 

[jon_mx]

1. Illegal motion -- Rule 7, Article 2, Section 6, Note 1:No player is ever permitted to be moving obliquely or directly forward toward his opponent's goal line at snap.

-- Peyton Manning, when in the shotgun, moves directly forward just prior to the snap almost at every shotgun snap. Miami does it frequently when in the wildcat. Why is this not flagged as illegal motion?

2. Illegal motion -- Rule 7, Article 2, Section 6:

At the snap, all offensive players must be stationary in their positions: a) without any movement of feet, head, or arms.

-- Colts' center, on silent count, was snapping his head sideways to signal to his linemen that he was about to snap the ball. How is this not a direct violation of this rule?* On another note, how does an NFL official reverse a ruling like Braylon's TD last night -- noting that his knee touched -- but fail to notice that he hadn't been touched so he was not down? Part 2 -- how does another ref not say, "hold on, yes his knee hit but he hadn't been touched"?

Can you challenge after a challenge?

 

[zed2283]

On a related note, can someone explain the difference between motion and a shift? I've always been sketchy on why they immediately throw a flag when two guys go into motion, when they could argue that they were simply shifting.

Also, I always thought linemen weren't allowed to move at all once they got down in a 3-point stance. Yet they're always turning this way and that to listen to the QB change the play or call out signals.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

1. Illegal motion -- Rule 7, Article 2, Section 6, Note 1:No player is ever permitted to be moving obliquely or directly forward toward his opponent's goal line at snap.

-- Peyton Manning, when in the shotgun, moves directly forward just prior to the snap almost at every shotgun snap. Miami does it frequently when in the wildcat. Why is this not flagged as illegal motion?

2. Illegal motion -- Rule 7, Article 2, Section 6:

At the snap, all offensive players must be stationary in their positions: a) without any movement of feet, head, or arms.

-- Colts' center, on silent count, was snapping his head sideways to signal to his linemen that he was about to snap the ball. How is this not a direct violation of this rule?* On another note, how does an NFL official reverse a ruling like Braylon's TD last night -- noting that his knee touched -- but fail to notice that he hadn't been touched so he was not down? Part 2 -- how does another ref not say, "hold on, yes his knee hit but he hadn't been touched"?

I don't believe Manning is moving in a way to entice the defense, same with the center. Had these movments been used to entice th defense they would be called ie. a qb violently moving his head when calling for the ball or a center quickly snapping his head up, these are done to entice the d. As far as Edwards' catch I'm pretty sure he had a guy all over him which would be contact, once contacted or touched he went down- dead ball.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Can you challenge after a challenge?

I think so, as long as you're challenging something that was not reviewed during the original challenge. Miami challenged the spot of the ball, but they did not challenge whether Edwards was touched. The Jets could then challenge whether Edwards was touched.edit: the more I look at the replay, the more I think that the replay official blew the call completely. Not only was Edwards NOT touched, but the ball clearly crossed the plane before his knee touched the ground.

 

[zed2283]

Can you challenge after a challenge?

I think so, as long as you're challenging something that was not reviewed during the original challenge. Miami challenged the spot of the ball, but they did not challenge whether Edwards was touched. The Jets could then challenge whether Edwards was touched.edit: the more I look at the replay, the more I think that the replay official blew the call completely. Not only was Edwards NOT touched, but the ball clearly crossed the plane before his knee touched the ground.

If a play is challenged, the entire play is open for review. So the ref looks at everything, not what was specifically challenged. I don't think you can challenge a challenge.

 

[jstout]

On a related note, can someone explain the difference between motion and a shift? I've always been sketchy on why they immediately throw a flag when two guys go into motion, when they could argue that they were simply shifting.

The difference between motion and shifting:Motion is only 1 player moving before or at the snap. The offense must set in a stance for 1 second then a player may perform a legal motion and does not need to set in a stance before the snap.Shifting is when 2 or more players move before the snap. Every player must set in a stance for 1 second before the snap, motion, or another shift.Above wording, move means any type of movement not just motioning.

 

[zed2283]

On a related note, can someone explain the difference between motion and a shift? I've always been sketchy on why they immediately throw a flag when two guys go into motion, when they could argue that they were simply shifting.

The difference between motion and shifting:Motion is only 1 player moving before or at the snap. The offense must set in a stance for 1 second then a player may perform a legal motion and does not need to set in a stance before the snap.Shifting is when 2 or more players move before the snap. Every player must set in a stance for 1 second before the snap, motion, or another shift.Above wording, move means any type of movement not just motioning.

Ok, that's fine. But when two guys go in motion, they always immediately throw the flag. There's no snap.

 

[dgreen]

On a related note, can someone explain the difference between motion and a shift? I've always been sketchy on why they immediately throw a flag when two guys go into motion, when they could argue that they were simply shifting.

The difference between motion and shifting:Motion is only 1 player moving before or at the snap. The offense must set in a stance for 1 second then a player may perform a legal motion and does not need to set in a stance before the snap.Shifting is when 2 or more players move before the snap. Every player must set in a stance for 1 second before the snap, motion, or another shift.Above wording, move means any type of movement not just motioning.

Ok, that's fine. But when two guys go in motion, they always immediately throw the flag. There's no snap.

I believe delay of game and false start are the only two penalties that keep a play from starting.Two guys being in motion does not prevent a play from starting. I've never seen that before.

 

[MG345]

On a related note, can someone explain the difference between motion and a shift? I've always been sketchy on why they immediately throw a flag when two guys go into motion, when they could argue that they were simply shifting.

The difference between motion and shifting:Motion is only 1 player moving before or at the snap. The offense must set in a stance for 1 second then a player may perform a legal motion and does not need to set in a stance before the snap.Shifting is when 2 or more players move before the snap. Every player must set in a stance for 1 second before the snap, motion, or another shift.Above wording, move means any type of movement not just motioning.

Ok, that's fine. But when two guys go in motion, they always immediately throw the flag. There's no snap.

I believe delay of game and false start are the only two penalties that keep a play from starting.Two guys being in motion does not prevent a play from starting. I've never seen that before.

Are we talking about an illegal shift? If so, it is only illegal if the ball is snapped while the 2 players are moving, or if they haven't reset for at least one second before the snap. The play will be stopped, but the ball must be snapped.

 

[zed2283]

On a related note, can someone explain the difference between motion and a shift? I've always been sketchy on why they immediately throw a flag when two guys go into motion, when they could argue that they were simply shifting.

The difference between motion and shifting:Motion is only 1 player moving before or at the snap. The offense must set in a stance for 1 second then a player may perform a legal motion and does not need to set in a stance before the snap.Shifting is when 2 or more players move before the snap. Every player must set in a stance for 1 second before the snap, motion, or another shift.Above wording, move means any type of movement not just motioning.

Ok, that's fine. But when two guys go in motion, they always immediately throw the flag. There's no snap.

I believe delay of game and false start are the only two penalties that keep a play from starting.Two guys being in motion does not prevent a play from starting. I've never seen that before.

Maybe once one player begins to move, then no one else can. They all have to move at the same time to qualify as a shift. And believe me, two guys in motion will prevent a play from starting. One guy goes in motion, the other guy starts in motion a moment later, the QB tries to call timeout, and the ref throws the flag and calls a penalty for illegal motion.

 

[jabarony]

Yeah, in a similar way to #2, I've never understood why a OL twitches it's a false start, but if he adjusts/points/etc. casually it's ok.

 

[dgreen]

On a related note, can someone explain the difference between motion and a shift? I've always been sketchy on why they immediately throw a flag when two guys go into motion, when they could argue that they were simply shifting.

The difference between motion and shifting:Motion is only 1 player moving before or at the snap. The offense must set in a stance for 1 second then a player may perform a legal motion and does not need to set in a stance before the snap.Shifting is when 2 or more players move before the snap. Every player must set in a stance for 1 second before the snap, motion, or another shift.Above wording, move means any type of movement not just motioning.

Ok, that's fine. But when two guys go in motion, they always immediately throw the flag. There's no snap.

I believe delay of game and false start are the only two penalties that keep a play from starting.Two guys being in motion does not prevent a play from starting. I've never seen that before.

Maybe once one player begins to move, then no one else can. They all have to move at the same time to qualify as a shift. And believe me, two guys in motion will prevent a play from starting. One guy goes in motion, the other guy starts in motion a moment later, the QB tries to call timeout, and the ref throws the flag and calls a penalty for illegal motion.

No. You can't have illegal motion if there hasn't been a snap. Illegal motion is based on multiple players being in motion and not resetting for one second before the snap. That foul requires there to be a snap.

 

[dgreen]

Yeah, in a similar way to #2, I've never understood why a OL twitches it's a false start, but if he adjusts/points/etc. casually it's ok.

Only OL twitches that occur after they are "set" are called. All the movement before they set is ok. Remember when Dallas used to have their OL, except C I believe, stand up and then go back down in their stance? That was ok because they hadn't set.There's also a rule about "sudden movement". The Redskins ran a play in preseason a couple years ago that the refs called defensive offsides. After being set, the FB quickly shifted laterally (not towards the line) and reset. The D jumped off and was called offsides. When they tried it again in the regular season, the Redskins were called for a false start and the ref said it was because the FB made a sudden movement in an attempt to simulate a snap or something like that. Gibbs certainly wasn't happy that the play was called differently. He even said he cleared it with the refs before running the play.

 

[zed2283]

Maybe once one player begins to move, then no one else can. They all have to move at the same time to qualify as a shift. And believe me, two guys in motion will prevent a play from starting. One guy goes in motion, the other guy starts in motion a moment later, the QB tries to call timeout, and the ref throws the flag and calls a penalty for illegal motion.

No. You can't have illegal motion if there hasn't been a snap. Illegal motion is based on multiple players being in motion and not resetting for one second before the snap. That foul requires there to be a snap.

I'd be willing to bet you on that, but I'm not sure how to prove my case without a video example.

 

[David Yudkin]

Can you challenge after a challenge?

As far as I remember you can. IIRC, in a Chiefs/Vikings game from a few years ago Priest Holmes had a long run and fumbled at the end but the officials originally said he didn't. Minnesota recovered the ball and challenged and won. The Chiefs then challenged that Holmes stepped out of bounds 25 yards earlier and then they won.

 

[dgreen]

I believe delay of game and false start are the only two penalties that keep a play from starting.

Oh, and illegal substitution will be called before a snap.And, of course, defensive encroachment will stop a play on the defensive side.

 

[MG345]

Maybe once one player begins to move, then no one else can. They all have to move at the same time to qualify as a shift. And believe me, two guys in motion will prevent a play from starting. One guy goes in motion, the other guy starts in motion a moment later, the QB tries to call timeout, and the ref throws the flag and calls a penalty for illegal motion.

No. You can't have illegal motion if there hasn't been a snap. Illegal motion is based on multiple players being in motion and not resetting for one second before the snap. That foul requires there to be a snap.

I'd be willing to bet you on that, but I'm not sure how to prove my case without a video example.

Just look at the NFL rule book, it clear states that there must be a snap.

 

[zed2283]

Maybe once one player begins to move, then no one else can. They all have to move at the same time to qualify as a shift. And believe me, two guys in motion will prevent a play from starting. One guy goes in motion, the other guy starts in motion a moment later, the QB tries to call timeout, and the ref throws the flag and calls a penalty for illegal motion.

No. You can't have illegal motion if there hasn't been a snap. Illegal motion is based on multiple players being in motion and not resetting for one second before the snap. That foul requires there to be a snap.

I'd be willing to bet you on that, but I'm not sure how to prove my case without a video example.

Just look at the NFL rule book, it clear states that there must be a snap.

Yep, I was just looking through it and that's what it says. But I know how I've seen it called on the field.

 

[gocuse3]

Can you challenge after a challenge?

As far as I remember you can. IIRC, in a Chiefs/Vikings game from a few years ago Priest Holmes had a long run and fumbled at the end but the officials originally said he didn't. Minnesota recovered the ball and challenged and won. The Chiefs then challenged that Holmes stepped out of bounds 25 yards earlier and then they won.

i am pretty sure you can in the nfl and in college i know you can because oregon a few years ago lost a review and then they used a challenge and won

 

[dgreen]

Can you challenge after a challenge?

As far as I remember you can. IIRC, in a Chiefs/Vikings game from a few years ago Priest Holmes had a long run and fumbled at the end but the officials originally said he didn't. Minnesota recovered the ball and challenged and won. The Chiefs then challenged that Holmes stepped out of bounds 25 yards earlier and then they won.

i am pretty sure you can in the nfl and in college i know you can because oregon a few years ago lost a review and then they used a challenge and won

Yes, I believe you can challenge a different aspect of the play. Kind of like the whole double jeopardy thing: they won't review the same thing twice.

 

[TommyGilmore]

Here is an example of a double challenge. Cincy challenged a lost fumble (and won). Baltimore then challenged that the Cincy player had stepped out of bounds.

 

[MG345]

Can you challenge after a challenge?

As far as I remember you can. IIRC, in a Chiefs/Vikings game from a few years ago Priest Holmes had a long run and fumbled at the end but the officials originally said he didn't. Minnesota recovered the ball and challenged and won. The Chiefs then challenged that Holmes stepped out of bounds 25 yards earlier and then they won.

i am pretty sure you can in the nfl and in college i know you can because oregon a few years ago lost a review and then they used a challenge and won

Yes, I believe you can challenge a different aspect of the play. Kind of like the whole double jeopardy thing: they won't review the same thing twice.

You cannot challenge a different aspect of the play, as all aspects are under scrutiny when a play is challenged. Challenge a play, and everything about the play is up for inspection (if allowable under the rules).The one reason why I think you may NOT be able to have consecutive challenges (can't find anything about it in the rule book) is the fact that you cannot take back to back timeouts. So if you challenged once, and failed, challenge again and fail, that would be back to back time outs...

 

[MG345]

Here is an example of a double challenge. Cincy challenged a lost fumble (and won). Baltimore then challenged that the Cincy player had stepped out of bounds.

That wouldn't really be a double challenge, in the spirit that was originally asked. Back to back challenges by the same team, is how I read it.

 

[dgreen]

Can you challenge after a challenge?

As far as I remember you can. IIRC, in a Chiefs/Vikings game from a few years ago Priest Holmes had a long run and fumbled at the end but the officials originally said he didn't. Minnesota recovered the ball and challenged and won. The Chiefs then challenged that Holmes stepped out of bounds 25 yards earlier and then they won.

i am pretty sure you can in the nfl and in college i know you can because oregon a few years ago lost a review and then they used a challenge and won

Yes, I believe you can challenge a different aspect of the play. Kind of like the whole double jeopardy thing: they won't review the same thing twice.

You cannot challenge a different aspect of the play, as all aspects are under scrutiny when a play is challenged. Challenge a play, and everything about the play is up for inspection (if allowable under the rules).The one reason why I think you may NOT be able to have consecutive challenges (can't find anything about it in the rule book) is the fact that you cannot take back to back timeouts. So if you challenged once, and failed, challenge again and fail, that would be back to back time outs...

But the two different teams can challenge, right?

 

[MG345]

But the two different teams can challenge, right?

Apparently, as posted above.