U.S. Ambassador to Libya Killed in Rocket Attack (2 Viewers)

[Chaka]

So this whole thing is about the administration saying the attack happened because of the video rather than it being a coordinated attack?

It's a movie, not a video. I guess it being on youtube turns it into a "video."

There are theories which are: 1. conspiracy vs 2. incompetence vs 3. the administration had it right from the get-go.

And ultimately the question is did a handful of people spontaneously show up to protest this movie (the administration's original claim) or was this an attack by a militia or terror group on the 11th anniversary of 9/11/01 that was totally premeditated.

I think there is some vagueness and miscommunication going on in terms of whether the militia/attackers were aware of the video or motivated by or none of that. I think what's clear at this point to all is that there was never any small group of protesters who spontaneously started this thing.

So now that the conspiracy theory about the administration creating the video theme ship has sailed, the new outrage is "spontaneous" vs. "planned"?

I don't know about that, I think conservatives and Republicans may still be looking for a conspiracy, not sure. I don't how you prove any conspiracy against anyone in this day and age, and I've felt for a while that this administration has been incompetent enough in other areas that it was never necessary to resort to claims of conspiracy.

People in this thread are still trying to promote conspiracies. What was the most recent one? That the administration and Khatalla are in cahoots regarding his story now?You seem like one of the sane ones Saints, what do you hope to get as your endgame from this whole mess?

And if the truth is that the video was the precipitating event then what?

Who are all the people promoting conspiracies in this thread?

I don't want to incorrectly attribute it but two or three pages ago someone suggested that the administration was working with Khatalla (or whatever his name is) to get his story of the events to gel with theirs.

One person is not "people".

Very astute. I am certain he is the only one.

 

[matuski]

So this whole thing is about the administration saying the attack happened because of the video rather than it being a coordinated attack?

It's a movie, not a video. I guess it being on youtube turns it into a "video."

There are theories which are: 1. conspiracy vs 2. incompetence vs 3. the administration had it right from the get-go.

And ultimately the question is did a handful of people spontaneously show up to protest this movie (the administration's original claim) or was this an attack by a militia or terror group on the 11th anniversary of 9/11/01 that was totally premeditated.

I think there is some vagueness and miscommunication going on in terms of whether the militia/attackers were aware of the video or motivated by or none of that. I think what's clear at this point to all is that there was never any small group of protesters who spontaneously started this thing.

So now that the conspiracy theory about the administration creating the video theme ship has sailed, the new outrage is "spontaneous" vs. "planned"?

I don't know about that, I think conservatives and Republicans may still be looking for a conspiracy, not sure. I don't how you prove any conspiracy against anyone in this day and age, and I've felt for a while that this administration has been incompetent enough in other areas that it was never necessary to resort to claims of conspiracy.

People in this thread are still trying to promote conspiracies. What was the most recent one? That the administration and Khatalla are in cahoots regarding his story now?

You seem like one of the sane ones Saints, what do you hope to get as your endgame from this whole mess?

And if the truth is that the video was the precipitating event then what?

I tried for days to get these questions answered here. They won't engage you in a direct conversation, because they know it looks bad on them to come out and say what they are saying.

 

[quickhands]

Wow, that legal advisor really had the scoop!

Why would he lie?

 

[Rove!]

Wow, that legal advisor really had the scoop!

Why would he lie?

any number of reasons....

 

[Todd Andrews]

I almost cared.

 

[Hang 10]

So this whole thing is about the administration saying the attack happened because of the video rather than it being a coordinated attack?

Obama would rather spin the truth about the Benghazi attack then admit that "terrorism" happened on his watch. You have to remember that this all happened when he was campaigning on kicking terrorist ###. I never thought this was Watergate or some grand conspiracy but think it's worth calling our government on their bull####.

 

[DocHolliday]

Sadly I think very few people truly care that Americans died at this point. We've grown numb, TYVM Iraq and Afghanistan.

I think this is true. People in American think the whole Mediteranean area is where people die needlessly, and where gyros and hummus come from.

I really like hummus.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So this whole thing is about the administration saying the attack happened because of the video rather than it being a coordinated attack?

It's a movie, not a video. I guess it being on youtube turns it into a "video."

There are theories which are: 1. conspiracy vs 2. incompetence vs 3. the administration had it right from the get-go.

And ultimately the question is did a handful of people spontaneously show up to protest this movie (the administration's original claim) or was this an attack by a militia or terror group on the 11th anniversary of 9/11/01 that was totally premeditated.

I think there is some vagueness and miscommunication going on in terms of whether the militia/attackers were aware of the video or motivated by or none of that. I think what's clear at this point to all is that there was never any small group of protesters who spontaneously started this thing.

So now that the conspiracy theory about the administration creating the video theme ship has sailed, the new outrage is "spontaneous" vs. "planned"?

I don't know about that, I think conservatives and Republicans may still be looking for a conspiracy, not sure. I don't how you prove any conspiracy against anyone in this day and age, and I've felt for a while that this administration has been incompetent enough in other areas that it was never necessary to resort to claims of conspiracy.

People in this thread are still trying to promote conspiracies. What was the most recent one? That the administration and Khatalla are in cahoots regarding his story now?

You seem like one of the sane ones Saints, what do you hope to get as your endgame from this whole mess?

And if the truth is that the video was the precipitating event then what?

As far as conspiracy theories, I think we have a major trust and transparency problem in this country. And I think things have gotten awfully convoluted, and it doesn't help that we don't have objective tv journalism anymore or that our former SOS is now running for president (and IMO her reaction and defensiveness on this thing will drag it out as much as the GOP seeking to take her down on it. The detailing will go on and on.). Still I'm interested in the detail, probably more than most, it's a mystery to me. I think it's important to get the facts right.

To me, again just my opinion, these were militia and terrorists behind the attack. If the movie was the main motivation, it puts the question back where it would have been if that had been established at the outset, which is regardless of the trigger, the administration knew - as the NYT reported - that there were angry, aggressive militia/terror types parked waiting to blow up and it just took a fuse. I think the description of the spontaneous protest is very important because the administration was saying, hey, it wasn't our fault, we couldn't have predicted this 'video thing.' That has all been lost because the word "video" has taken center stage. The idea that Khattala and Ansar needed a movie to inspire them to attack our embassy is crazy, but I could see how they took it as an opportunity to act. To me that's very different from actually being inspired into hatred by the movie itself, they hated and were at war all along. That's probably all too subtle for people doing scoring based on red/blue.

And I also think it's interesting because I think the administrations two weeks of comments after the event showed cognitive bias on the part of the president and his cabinet. They really believed that a "hateful video" was the problem even though that wasn't the case. the problem was that the were militia just waiting for a chance to destroy our embassy and we had little to no on-site support to defend it.

And I'm interested by the story behind the movie, I don't think anyone else is or we can't get to that because of the details behind what happened. A Coptic Christian flees Egypt where his people are being persecuted, admittedly he's a bit of a hustler by the sound of it, but he makes a movie in which he debunks Mohammed, and essentially says the Egyptian muslims are hypocrites and the Coptics are being treated unfairly. The result is, however we phrase the why's (probation violation), he lands in jail. To me, in America, we should all be defending this guy. Instead our president goes before the UN and assails him and his movie and basically just says that the rioting Egyptians and the Libyan militia/terrorists (two totally different groups doing different things) really had a right to be "offended" they just took the wrong means to address it. To me ultimately it's a free speech issue and a reflection on how we view free speech. I don't think even liberals in our country (and btw we are all liberals compared to other countries when it comes to free speech rights) feel the way the president said he did in the UN speech.

 

[tommyGunZ]

You a big Westboro Baptist Church fan Saints?

 

[Chaka]

Sadly I think very few people truly care that Americans died at this point. We've grown numb, TYVM Iraq and Afghanistan.

I think this is true. People in American think the whole Mediteranean area is where people die needlessly, and where gyros and hummus come from.

I really like hummus.

NO BLOOD FOR HUMMUS!!!

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You a big Westboro Baptist Church fan Saints?

No, no I am not. Thanks.

 

[tommyboy]

So this whole thing is about the administration saying the attack happened because of the video rather than it being a coordinated attack?

It's a movie, not a video. I guess it being on youtube turns it into a "video."

There are theories which are: 1. conspiracy vs 2. incompetence vs 3. the administration had it right from the get-go.

And ultimately the question is did a handful of people spontaneously show up to protest this movie (the administration's original claim) or was this an attack by a militia or terror group on the 11th anniversary of 9/11/01 that was totally premeditated.

I think there is some vagueness and miscommunication going on in terms of whether the militia/attackers were aware of the video or motivated by or none of that. I think what's clear at this point to all is that there was never any small group of protesters who spontaneously started this thing.

So now that the conspiracy theory about the administration creating the video theme ship has sailed, the new outrage is "spontaneous" vs. "planned"?

I don't know about that, I think conservatives and Republicans may still be looking for a conspiracy, not sure. I don't how you prove any conspiracy against anyone in this day and age, and I've felt for a while that this administration has been incompetent enough in other areas that it was never necessary to resort to claims of conspiracy.

People in this thread are still trying to promote conspiracies. What was the most recent one? That the administration and Khatalla are in cahoots regarding his story now?

You seem like one of the sane ones Saints, what do you hope to get as your endgame from this whole mess?

And if the truth is that the video was the precipitating event then what?

I tried for days to get these questions answered here. They won't engage you in a direct conversation, because they know it looks bad on them to come out and say what they are saying.

its not hard, people get tired of repeating facts that you guys just won't accept.

the video never was part of Benghazi, never. The admin knew within hours of the attack that it was a coordinated attack that militants groups were bragging about. This has all been exposed, its public record. So the admin, via Susan Rice and the CIA/State Dept, flat out lied and/or emitted key parts of those facts to create the spin that this was just some freaky thing that just sort of happened because some guy in Los Angeles put an offensive video on youtube. They then sent federal agents to arrest that man at midnight, and put him in jail for a year. end of story.

 

[TheIronSheik]

You a big Westboro Baptist Church fan Saints?

No, no I am not. Thanks.

I know a guy who used to have that phone number in his signature.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You a big Westboro Baptist Church fan Saints?

No, no I am not. Thanks.

I know a guy who used to have that phone number in his signature.

Wow, it's a big country out there, folks. So be careful driving around.

 

[tommyGunZ]

You a big Westboro Baptist Church fan Saints?

No, no I am not. Thanks.

This is America, shouldn't we be defending the Westboro folks, instead of demonizing them?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You a big Westboro Baptist Church fan Saints?

No, no I am not. Thanks.

This is America, shouldn't we be defending the Westboro folks, instead of demonizing them?

Oh I see. Well I'll tell you this much, we don't throw their pastor in jail or try to kill him or defend those who want to as basically right but misguided in their methods.

 

[tommyGunZ]

You a big Westboro Baptist Church fan Saints?

No, no I am not. Thanks.

This is America, shouldn't we be defending the Westboro folks, instead of demonizing them?

Oh I see. Well I'll tell you this much, we don't throw their pastor in jail or try to kill him or defend those who want to as basically right but misguided in their methods.

Is the Westboro pastor in violation of his probation?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You a big Westboro Baptist Church fan Saints?

No, no I am not. Thanks.

This is America, shouldn't we be defending the Westboro folks, instead of demonizing them?

Oh I see. Well I'll tell you this much, we don't throw their pastor in jail or try to kill him or defend those who want to as basically right but misguided in their methods.

Is the Westboro pastor in violation of his probation?

Basile was just as much in violation of his probation before the Benghazi killings as after. The feds certainly weren't concerned with him beforehand.

And the president didn't come out and say to the UN, 'the man was using an alias against his probation agreement!' (Let's see any connection between anonymity and free speech you can think of???)

No, he said that this American and his movie:

• made "a crude and disgusting video"
• "its message must be rejected by all who respect our common humanity"
• "It is an insult not only to Muslims, but to America as well"
• "We understand why people take offense to this video because millions of our citizens are among them."
• "I know there are some who ask why we don’t just ban such a video"
• "blasphemy against our most sacred beliefs."
• "hateful speech" (twice)
• "create[d] chaos around the world"
• "The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam."

If Basile was a muslim who made this movie about Christians and debunking their "myths" (substituting Christ for Prophet, Christianity for Islam), and pointing out their hypocrisy, then actually these kinds of words and thoughts might actually come from the Westboro pastor himself.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Chaka]

ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!

 

[Todd Andrews]

You a big Westboro Baptist Church fan Saints?

No, no I am not. Thanks.

This is America, shouldn't we be defending the Westboro folks, instead of demonizing them?

Oh I see. Well I'll tell you this much, we don't throw their pastor in jail or try to kill him or defend those who want to as basically right but misguided in their methods.

Is the Westboro pastor in violation of his probation?

Basile was just as much in violation of his probation before the Benghazi killings as after. The feds certainly weren't concerned with him beforehand.

And the president didn't come out and say to the UN, 'the man was using an alias against his probation agreement!' (Let's see any connection between anonymity and free speech you can think of???)

No, he said that this American and his movie:

• made "a crude and disgusting video"
• "its message must be rejected by all who respect our common humanity"
• "It is an insult not only to Muslims, but to America as well"
• "We understand why people take offense to this video because millions of our citizens are among them."
• "I know there are some who ask why we don’t just ban such a video"
• "blasphemy against our most sacred beliefs."
• "hateful speech" (twice)
• "create[d] chaos around the world"
• "The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam."

If Basile was a muslim who made this movie about Christians and debunking their "myths" (substituting Christ for Prophet, Christianity for Islam), and pointing out their hypocrisy, then actually these kinds of words and thoughts might actually come from the Westboro pastor himself.

Wouldn't you agree?

So?

 

[timschochet]

SaintsinDome2006, if I read your posts correctly, it seems that while you don't believe in some big conspiracy, you DO think that what happened shows a great deal of incompetence by the Obama Administration (along with a cover up to hide the incompetence) and that, when we combine that with other events such as the Obamacare rollout, it demonstrates a pattern of incompetence by this administration which is worse than other administrations, and certainly worthy of attention and general derision.

If this is indeed your argument (and please correct me if I have misunderstood you in any way) I couldn't disagree more. While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration. Of the several Presidential administrations in my lifetime, there is not a single one that doesn't have several instances as egregious as these two, and most far worse. In terms of the Obama Administration, I find them to be anomalies. Going all the way back to the Mexico oil spill, the Arab Spring, the revolts in Syria and Libya, and Hurricane Sandy, I have to say that Obama's people have handled sudden, emergency situations as well or better than any Presidential team I can recall. I have read a few books on this administration, some by admirers and some by critics, and my conclusion is that they are very efficient. So I really think your conclusions on this matter are limited, almost anecdotal, and don't really reflect the skill level of this administration. They are very very good.

 

[Stinger Ray]

SaintsinDome2006, if I read your posts correctly, it seems that while you don't believe in some big conspiracy, you DO think that what happened shows a great deal of incompetence by the Obama Administration (along with a cover up to hide the incompetence) and that, when we combine that with other events such as the Obamacare rollout, it demonstrates a pattern of incompetence by this administration which is worse than other administrations, and certainly worthy of attention and general derision.

If this is indeed your argument (and please correct me if I have misunderstood you in any way) I couldn't disagree more. While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration. Of the several Presidential administrations in my lifetime, there is not a single one that doesn't have several instances as egregious as these two, and most far worse. In terms of the Obama Administration, I find them to be anomalies. Going all the way back to the Mexico oil spill, the Arab Spring, the revolts in Syria and Libya, and Hurricane Sandy, I have to say that Obama's people have handled sudden, emergency situations as well or better than any Presidential team I can recall. I have read a few books on this administration, some by admirers and some by critics, and my conclusion is that they are very efficient. So I really think your conclusions on this matter are limited, almost anecdotal, and don't really reflect the skill level of this administration. They are very very good.

 

[timschochet]

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

The gift that keeps on giving....

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

You a big Westboro Baptist Church fan Saints?

No, no I am not. Thanks.

This is America, shouldn't we be defending the Westboro folks, instead of demonizing them?

Oh I see. Well I'll tell you this much, we don't throw their pastor in jail or try to kill him or defend those who want to as basically right but misguided in their methods.

Is the Westboro pastor in violation of his probation?

Basile was just as much in violation of his probation before the Benghazi killings as after. The feds certainly weren't concerned with him beforehand.

And the president didn't come out and say to the UN, 'the man was using an alias against his probation agreement!' (Let's see any connection between anonymity and free speech you can think of???)

No, he said that this American and his movie:

• made "a crude and disgusting video"
• "its message must be rejected by all who respect our common humanity"
• "It is an insult not only to Muslims, but to America as well"
• "We understand why people take offense to this video because millions of our citizens are among them."
• "I know there are some who ask why we don’t just ban such a video"
• "blasphemy against our most sacred beliefs."
• "hateful speech" (twice)
• "create[d] chaos around the world"
• "The future must not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam."

If Basile was a muslim who made this movie about Christians and debunking their "myths" (substituting Christ for Prophet, Christianity for Islam), and pointing out their hypocrisy, then actually these kinds of words and thoughts might actually come from the Westboro pastor himself.

Wouldn't you agree?

So?

So, Gunz brought up the Westboro preacher. And looking at it, between the two of them Obama compares more closely to him than Basile. Our embassy was attacked by a militia/terrorists which his administration had been warned about for weeks and Obama's conclusion to the UN was that there was a crude, disgusting, offensive, insulting, blasphemous, hateful video [his words] which "millions of Americans" find offensive and would love to ban and which caused worldwide chaos [his assessment] but hey the American government had nothing to do with it and gosh unfortunately we can't do anything about it. That's pretty much it.

 

[timschochet]

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

The gift that keeps on giving....

I'm hoping that Saints will respond to my posts. Though we disagree a lot, he is a very thoughtful guy and I learn quite a bit even by disagreeing with him. You may also be a thoughtful guy but unfortunately I would never know it from your posts. You offer nothing of value. All you do is attack anyone who takes issue with your partisan conservative point of view- and you don't even rip them with argument or humor, just emoticons. It's boring and sad. Hopefully in the future you'll contribute something worthwhile to these discussions.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

SaintsinDome2006, if I read your posts correctly, it seems that while you don't believe in some big conspiracy, you DO think that what happened shows a great deal of incompetence by the Obama Administration (along with a cover up to hide the incompetence) and that, when we combine that with other events such as the Obamacare rollout, it demonstrates a pattern of incompetence by this administration which is worse than other administrations, and certainly worthy of attention and general derision.

If this is indeed your argument (and please correct me if I have misunderstood you in any way) I couldn't disagree more. While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration. Of the several Presidential administrations in my lifetime, there is not a single one that doesn't have several instances as egregious as these two, and most far worse. In terms of the Obama Administration, I find them to be anomalies. Going all the way back to the Mexico oil spill, the Arab Spring, the revolts in Syria and Libya, and Hurricane Sandy, I have to say that Obama's people have handled sudden, emergency situations as well or better than any Presidential team I can recall. I have read a few books on this administration, some by admirers and some by critics, and my conclusion is that they are very efficient. So I really think your conclusions on this matter are limited, almost anecdotal, and don't really reflect the skill level of this administration. They are very very good.

While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration.

Just so we're clear on this: The same administration that looked at HC.gov and said "Ready!" is the same administration that saw our embassy burning on the 9/11/01 anniversary and said, "Hm, definitely must be the video."

Is that pretty much it?

 

[timschochet]

SaintsinDome2006, if I read your posts correctly, it seems that while you don't believe in some big conspiracy, you DO think that what happened shows a great deal of incompetence by the Obama Administration (along with a cover up to hide the incompetence) and that, when we combine that with other events such as the Obamacare rollout, it demonstrates a pattern of incompetence by this administration which is worse than other administrations, and certainly worthy of attention and general derision.

If this is indeed your argument (and please correct me if I have misunderstood you in any way) I couldn't disagree more. While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration. Of the several Presidential administrations in my lifetime, there is not a single one that doesn't have several instances as egregious as these two, and most far worse. In terms of the Obama Administration, I find them to be anomalies. Going all the way back to the Mexico oil spill, the Arab Spring, the revolts in Syria and Libya, and Hurricane Sandy, I have to say that Obama's people have handled sudden, emergency situations as well or better than any Presidential team I can recall. I have read a few books on this administration, some by admirers and some by critics, and my conclusion is that they are very efficient. So I really think your conclusions on this matter are limited, almost anecdotal, and don't really reflect the skill level of this administration. They are very very good.

While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration.

Just so we're clear on this: The same administration that looked at HC.gov and said "Ready!" is the same administration that saw our embassy burning on the 9/11/01 anniversary and said, "Hm, definitely must be the video."

Is that pretty much it?

Well that's the comparison that YOU'RE making. I'm suggesting that these two cases aren't representative, and in the rest of my post I listed several other examples of crisis which demonstrated a much greater level of competence.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

The gift that keeps on giving....

I'm hoping that Saints will respond to my posts. Though we disagree a lot, he is a very thoughtful guy and I learn quite a bit even by disagreeing with him. You may also be a thoughtful guy but unfortunately I would never know it from your posts. You offer nothing of value. All you do is attack anyone who takes issue with your partisan conservative point of view- and you don't even rip them with argument or humor, just emoticons. It's boring and sad. Hopefully in the future you'll contribute something worthwhile to these discussions.

Yet....you have to write all of this for my response of



It's just too easy with you.

 

[Chaka]

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

The gift that keeps on giving....

I'm hoping that Saints will respond to my posts. Though we disagree a lot, he is a very thoughtful guy and I learn quite a bit even by disagreeing with him. You may also be a thoughtful guy but unfortunately I would never know it from your posts. You offer nothing of value. All you do is attack anyone who takes issue with your partisan conservative point of view- and you don't even rip them with argument or humor, just emoticons. It's boring and sad. Hopefully in the future you'll contribute something worthwhile to these discussions.

Yet....you have to write all of this for my response of



It's just too easy with you.

Soooooo...you approve of the way The Bush administration handled Katrina?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

SaintsinDome2006, if I read your posts correctly, it seems that while you don't believe in some big conspiracy, you DO think that what happened shows a great deal of incompetence by the Obama Administration (along with a cover up to hide the incompetence) and that, when we combine that with other events such as the Obamacare rollout, it demonstrates a pattern of incompetence by this administration which is worse than other administrations, and certainly worthy of attention and general derision.

If this is indeed your argument (and please correct me if I have misunderstood you in any way) I couldn't disagree more. While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration. Of the several Presidential administrations in my lifetime, there is not a single one that doesn't have several instances as egregious as these two, and most far worse. In terms of the Obama Administration, I find them to be anomalies. Going all the way back to the Mexico oil spill, the Arab Spring, the revolts in Syria and Libya, and Hurricane Sandy, I have to say that Obama's people have handled sudden, emergency situations as well or better than any Presidential team I can recall. I have read a few books on this administration, some by admirers and some by critics, and my conclusion is that they are very efficient. So I really think your conclusions on this matter are limited, almost anecdotal, and don't really reflect the skill level of this administration. They are very very good.

While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration.

Just so we're clear on this: The same administration that looked at HC.gov and said "Ready!" is the same administration that saw our embassy burning on the 9/11/01 anniversary and said, "Hm, definitely must be the video."

Is that pretty much it?

Well that's the comparison that YOU'RE making. I'm suggesting that these two cases aren't representative, and in the rest of my post I listed several other examples of crisis which demonstrated a much greater level of competence.

The BP oil spill? Not a great way to build a case for governmental competence.

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

Well I'll tell you about the Katrina hearings. The Democrats called Dianne "Mamma D" French who claimed the feds purposefully blew up the levees to drown black people (including a loud "boom!" in her testimony). Our Rep at the time, Bill Jefferson (D), was there by her side; he went to jail for stealing from the public. You see his mistake was that he used National Guards troops, who were Uptown to help save people, to ferry him to his home so he could retrieve tens of thousands of dollars in cash that he had wrapped in tin foil in his freezer. Discussions about how the feds and levee boards under-enforced and insufficiently designed and maintained levees for decades leading to over 50 breaches? They were not interested. When we reach that level, let me know.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

The gift that keeps on giving....

I'm hoping that Saints will respond to my posts. Though we disagree a lot, he is a very thoughtful guy and I learn quite a bit even by disagreeing with him. You may also be a thoughtful guy but unfortunately I would never know it from your posts. You offer nothing of value. All you do is attack anyone who takes issue with your partisan conservative point of view- and you don't even rip them with argument or humor, just emoticons. It's boring and sad. Hopefully in the future you'll contribute something worthwhile to these discussions.

Yet....you have to write all of this for my response of



It's just too easy with you.

Soooooo...you approve of the way The Bush administration handled Katrina?

 

[timschochet]

SaintsinDome2006, if I read your posts correctly, it seems that while you don't believe in some big conspiracy, you DO think that what happened shows a great deal of incompetence by the Obama Administration (along with a cover up to hide the incompetence) and that, when we combine that with other events such as the Obamacare rollout, it demonstrates a pattern of incompetence by this administration which is worse than other administrations, and certainly worthy of attention and general derision.

If this is indeed your argument (and please correct me if I have misunderstood you in any way) I couldn't disagree more. While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration. Of the several Presidential administrations in my lifetime, there is not a single one that doesn't have several instances as egregious as these two, and most far worse. In terms of the Obama Administration, I find them to be anomalies. Going all the way back to the Mexico oil spill, the Arab Spring, the revolts in Syria and Libya, and Hurricane Sandy, I have to say that Obama's people have handled sudden, emergency situations as well or better than any Presidential team I can recall. I have read a few books on this administration, some by admirers and some by critics, and my conclusion is that they are very efficient. So I really think your conclusions on this matter are limited, almost anecdotal, and don't really reflect the skill level of this administration. They are very very good.

While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration.

Just so we're clear on this: The same administration that looked at HC.gov and said "Ready!" is the same administration that saw our embassy burning on the 9/11/01 anniversary and said, "Hm, definitely must be the video."

Is that pretty much it?

Well that's the comparison that YOU'RE making. I'm suggesting that these two cases aren't representative, and in the rest of my post I listed several other examples of crisis which demonstrated a much greater level of competence.

The BP oil spill? Not a great way to build a case for governmental competence.

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

Well I'll tell you about the Katrina hearings. The Democrats called Dianne "Mamma D" French who claimed the feds purposefully blew up the levees to drown black people (including a loud "boom!" in her testimony). Our Rep at the time, Bill Jefferson (D), was there by her side; he went to jail for stealing from the public. You see his mistake was that he used National Guards troops, who were Uptown to help save people, to ferry him to his home so he could retrieve tens of thousands of dollars in cash that he had wrapped in tin foil in his freezer. When we reach that level, let me know.

Some of those hearings were zany I agree, but nothing to do with what I'm talking about. As far as Republicans reaching that level, do you listen at all to talk radio or follow the blogs? They're already there.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

SaintsinDome2006, if I read your posts correctly, it seems that while you don't believe in some big conspiracy, you DO think that what happened shows a great deal of incompetence by the Obama Administration (along with a cover up to hide the incompetence) and that, when we combine that with other events such as the Obamacare rollout, it demonstrates a pattern of incompetence by this administration which is worse than other administrations, and certainly worthy of attention and general derision.

If this is indeed your argument (and please correct me if I have misunderstood you in any way) I couldn't disagree more. While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration. Of the several Presidential administrations in my lifetime, there is not a single one that doesn't have several instances as egregious as these two, and most far worse. In terms of the Obama Administration, I find them to be anomalies. Going all the way back to the Mexico oil spill, the Arab Spring, the revolts in Syria and Libya, and Hurricane Sandy, I have to say that Obama's people have handled sudden, emergency situations as well or better than any Presidential team I can recall. I have read a few books on this administration, some by admirers and some by critics, and my conclusion is that they are very efficient. So I really think your conclusions on this matter are limited, almost anecdotal, and don't really reflect the skill level of this administration. They are very very good.

While there were SOME mistakes made here, and a whole lot of mistakes made in the Obamacare rollout, I dispute the idea that it demonstrates any kind of pattern in this administration.

Just so we're clear on this: The same administration that looked at HC.gov and said "Ready!" is the same administration that saw our embassy burning on the 9/11/01 anniversary and said, "Hm, definitely must be the video."

Is that pretty much it?

Well that's the comparison that YOU'RE making. I'm suggesting that these two cases aren't representative, and in the rest of my post I listed several other examples of crisis which demonstrated a much greater level of competence.

The BP oil spill? Not a great way to build a case for governmental competence.

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

Well I'll tell you about the Katrina hearings. The Democrats called Dianne "Mamma D" French who claimed the feds purposefully blew up the levees to drown black people (including a loud "boom!" in her testimony). Our Rep at the time, Bill Jefferson (D), was there by her side; he went to jail for stealing from the public. You see his mistake was that he used National Guards troops, who were Uptown to help save people, to ferry him to his home so he could retrieve tens of thousands of dollars in cash that he had wrapped in tin foil in his freezer. When we reach that level, let me know.

Some of those hearings were zany I agree, but nothing to do with what I'm talking about. As far as Republicans reaching that level, do you listen at all to talk radio or follow the blogs? They're already there.

Fortunately or unfortunately I'm largely learning things here these days. It's an experiment but I'm happy about it. I do catch the tv and NPR news in the am though. So I freely admit I might be missing something(s).

 

[timschochet]

All right, fine. I'm not trying to turn this into a contest about which side's lunatic fringe is kookier. We can agree that there is little to choose between them.

Back to my main point- on the whole, I think the Obama Administration has shown a much higher level of competence than you seem to want to give them credit for. I make that argument without regard to their political attitudes- whether or not you like or dislike a President's politics should have nothing to do with how you regard their competence.

 

[Stinger Ray]

All right, fine. I'm not trying to turn this into a contest about which side's lunatic fringe is kookier. We can agree that there is little to choose between them.

Back to my main point- on the whole, I think the Obama Administration has shown a much higher level of competence than you seem to want to give them credit for. I make that argument without regard to their political attitudes- whether or not you like or dislike a President's politics should have nothing to do with how you regard their competence.

Yet his approval ratings are terrible and Dems that are in the election cycle for 2014 are distancing themselves from him. Yep...he's doing great.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

All right, fine. I'm not trying to turn this into a contest about which side's lunatic fringe is kookier. We can agree that there is little to choose between them.

Back to my main point- on the whole, I think the Obama Administration has shown a much higher level of competence than you seem to want to give them credit for. I make that argument without regard to their political attitudes- whether or not you like or dislike a President's politics should have nothing to do with how you regard their competence.

Hey I fully admit that if we look at examples of incompetence it's only logical to look at examples of competence. However if the Obama administration was acting in full consciousness of what it was doing, that's not very good for them in this particular situation.

This is a response to a hateful and offensive video that was widely disseminated throughout the Arab and Muslim world. Obviously, our view is that there is absolutely no excuse for violence and that-- what has happened is condemnable, but this is a-- a spontaneous reaction to a video ...

GREGORY: Was there a failure here that this administration is responsible for, whether it’s an intelligence failure, a failure to see this coming, or a failure to adequately protect U.S. embassies and installations from a spontaneous kind of reaction like this?

MS. RICE: David, I don’t think so. First of all we had no actionable intelligence to suggest that-- that any attack on our facility in Benghazi was imminent. ...

Goals: ... To reinforce the President and Administration's strength and steadiness in dealing with difficult challenges.

If the Obama administration was fully conscious in saying these things then the GOP just looks stronger in their theories IMO.

 

[Sand]

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

The gift that keeps on giving....

I'm hoping that Saints will respond to my posts. Though we disagree a lot, he is a very thoughtful guy and I learn quite a bit even by disagreeing with him. You may also be a thoughtful guy but unfortunately I would never know it from your posts. You offer nothing of value. All you do is attack anyone who takes issue with your partisan conservative point of view- and you don't even rip them with argument or humor, just emoticons. It's boring and sad. Hopefully in the future you'll contribute something worthwhile to these discussions.

Yet....you have to write all of this for my response of



It's just too easy with you.

Soooooo...you approve of the way The Bush administration handled Katrina?

While it took a couple more days to get going than one would have hoped the Federal response, once going, was overwhelming in its scope. And while FEMA was pilloried for their response, which is deserved, let's remember that FEMA isn't designed as a fast response vehicle. The Coast Guard was absolutely spectacular in their response (people forget this).

As far as falling down on the job in quick response the biggest blame falls on Blanco, then Nagin. (As a side note I hate that woman with the power of a thousand suns.) The federal response was in another league.

We can go chapter and verse on this - I was back in the city 6 days after the hurricane.

 

[timschochet]

All right, fine. I'm not trying to turn this into a contest about which side's lunatic fringe is kookier. We can agree that there is little to choose between them.

Back to my main point- on the whole, I think the Obama Administration has shown a much higher level of competence than you seem to want to give them credit for. I make that argument without regard to their political attitudes- whether or not you like or dislike a President's politics should have nothing to do with how you regard their competence.

Yet his approval ratings are terrible and Dems that are in the election cycle for 2014 are distancing themselves from him. Yep...he's doing great.

What does that have to with what I wrote?

 

[timschochet]

All right, fine. I'm not trying to turn this into a contest about which side's lunatic fringe is kookier. We can agree that there is little to choose between them.

Back to my main point- on the whole, I think the Obama Administration has shown a much higher level of competence than you seem to want to give them credit for. I make that argument without regard to their political attitudes- whether or not you like or dislike a President's politics should have nothing to do with how you regard their competence.

Hey I fully admit that if we look at examples of incompetence it's only logical to look at examples of competence. However if the Obama administration was acting in full consciousness of what it was doing, that's not very good for them in this particular situation.

This is a response to a hateful and offensive video that was widely disseminated throughout the Arab and Muslim world. Obviously, our view is that there is absolutely no excuse for violence and that-- what has happened is condemnable, but this is a-- a spontaneous reaction to a video ...

GREGORY: Was there a failure here that this administration is responsible for, whether its an intelligence failure, a failure to see this coming, or a failure to adequately protect U.S. embassies and installations from a spontaneous kind of reaction like this?

MS. RICE: David, I dont think so. First of all we had no actionable intelligence to suggest that-- that any attack on our facility in Benghazi was imminent. ...

Goals: ... To reinforce the President and Administration's strength and steadiness in dealing with difficult challenges.

If the Obama administration was fully conscious in saying these things then the GOP just looks stronger in their theories IMO.

OK so now I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting now that they were incompetent in this situation, or that they deliberately lied? Which is it?

 

[Politician Spock]

WTF happened in here?!?

 

[Stinger Ray]

All right, fine. I'm not trying to turn this into a contest about which side's lunatic fringe is kookier. We can agree that there is little to choose between them.

Back to my main point- on the whole, I think the Obama Administration has shown a much higher level of competence than you seem to want to give them credit for. I make that argument without regard to their political attitudes- whether or not you like or dislike a President's politics should have nothing to do with how you regard their competence.

Yet his approval ratings are terrible and Dems that are in the election cycle for 2014 are distancing themselves from him. Yep...he's doing great.

What does that have to with what I wrote?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

WTF happened in here?!?

The anti-Obamites are off the rails.

 

[Chaka]

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

The gift that keeps on giving....

I'm hoping that Saints will respond to my posts. Though we disagree a lot, he is a very thoughtful guy and I learn quite a bit even by disagreeing with him. You may also be a thoughtful guy but unfortunately I would never know it from your posts. You offer nothing of value. All you do is attack anyone who takes issue with your partisan conservative point of view- and you don't even rip them with argument or humor, just emoticons. It's boring and sad. Hopefully in the future you'll contribute something worthwhile to these discussions.

Yet....you have to write all of this for my response of



It's just too easy with you.

Soooooo...you approve of the way The Bush administration handled Katrina?

I am taking this as you punting on the question.

 

[Stinger Ray]

Certainly, for instance, when we compare how the Obamas handled Benghazi to how the Bushes handled Hurricane Katrina, it's not even remotely close. If the Democrats had held hearings about Katrina in the same manner as the Republicans are now investigating Benghazi, far far worse would have been uncovered, IMO- a much higher level of incompetence for a much longer period of time, with far greater catastrophic consequences.

The gift that keeps on giving....

I'm hoping that Saints will respond to my posts. Though we disagree a lot, he is a very thoughtful guy and I learn quite a bit even by disagreeing with him. You may also be a thoughtful guy but unfortunately I would never know it from your posts. You offer nothing of value. All you do is attack anyone who takes issue with your partisan conservative point of view- and you don't even rip them with argument or humor, just emoticons. It's boring and sad. Hopefully in the future you'll contribute something worthwhile to these discussions.

Yet....you have to write all of this for my response of



It's just too easy with you.

Soooooo...you approve of the way The Bush administration handled Katrina?

I am taking this as you punting on the question.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

All right, fine. I'm not trying to turn this into a contest about which side's lunatic fringe is kookier. We can agree that there is little to choose between them.

Back to my main point- on the whole, I think the Obama Administration has shown a much higher level of competence than you seem to want to give them credit for. I make that argument without regard to their political attitudes- whether or not you like or dislike a President's politics should have nothing to do with how you regard their competence.

Hey I fully admit that if we look at examples of incompetence it's only logical to look at examples of competence. However if the Obama administration was acting in full consciousness of what it was doing, that's not very good for them in this particular situation.

This is a response to a hateful and offensive video that was widely disseminated throughout the Arab and Muslim world. Obviously, our view is that there is absolutely no excuse for violence and that-- what has happened is condemnable, but this is a-- a spontaneous reaction to a video ...

GREGORY: Was there a failure here that this administration is responsible for, whether its an intelligence failure, a failure to see this coming, or a failure to adequately protect U.S. embassies and installations from a spontaneous kind of reaction like this?

MS. RICE: David, I dont think so. First of all we had no actionable intelligence to suggest that-- that any attack on our facility in Benghazi was imminent. ...

Goals: ... To reinforce the President and Administration's strength and steadiness in dealing with difficult challenges.

If the Obama administration was fully conscious in saying these things then the GOP just looks stronger in their theories IMO.

OK so now I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting now that they were incompetent in this situation, or that they deliberately lied? Which is it?

Well I keep arguing for incompetence but you keep trying to persuade me that these guys are constantly in charge of the situation and so... if the above was intentional then... but that's where you come in. But I'm sticking with incompetence.

Look at this phrase from Rice as one example:

a hateful and offensive video that was widely disseminated throughout the Arab and Muslim world

Now I want you to imagine for 5 seconds that George W Bush had said that.

It's Youtube.

Youtube. As in it was put on the internets.

But Susan Rice thinks that means it was "widely disseminated throughout the Arab and muslim world"???

Hey Suze, here's a hint: anyone anywhere in the world can see it.

 

[timschochet]

Saints, I'm not saying there wasn't a certain amount of incompetence with regard to Benghazi. Others may deny it but I don't. The bottom line is that they publicly misrepresented the cause of the attack, and they did it far longer than they should have. That's a screw up plain and simple, no getting around it.

Where we apparently disagree is on two points: first, although it was a screwup, I don't think, based on the info that we know, that it rises to the level of severe incompetence that you seem to think it does. It was a screwup, but there was good reason for it.

More inportantly, I don't think it's at all representative of the level of competence of this administration, as you seem to think it does.

 

[timschochet]

As to the last part of your post, I don't get your problem with Rice's statement. It was on YouTube, some Muslims saw it there, became outraged, told other Muslims about it, forwarded it to them, and pretty soon everyone e in the Srab world was aware of the video and most of them were pissed off about it. All of this is well known. What's wrong with what Rice said?

 

[BassNBrew]

As to the last part of your post, I don't get your problem with Rice's statement. It was on YouTube, some Muslims saw it there, became outraged, told other Muslims about it, forwarded it to them, and pretty soon everyone e in the Srab world was aware of the video and most of them were pissed off about it. All of this is well known. What's wrong with what Rice said?

You can find anything you want on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmluFka6IIk

 

[timschochet]

As to the last part of your post, I don't get your problem with Rice's statement. It was on YouTube, some Muslims saw it there, became outraged, told other Muslims about it, forwarded it to them, and pretty soon everyone e in the Srab world was aware of the video and most of them were pissed off about it. All of this is well known. What's wrong with what Rice said?

You can find anything you want on youtube.

Well of course. But it still doesn't make Saint's complaint here any more coherent.