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US economy thread (1 Viewer)

and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
People want everything to go their way at all times and want everyone to think about all social and political issues in the "correct" way (which is the way they think). This thread is a microcosm of that.

We are a whiney, mostly miserable, society in many ways, and divisive politics (speaking generally, not about one side or the other) keep making it worse and worse. Words like "evil" are thrown around way too easily, where "evil" basically just means their political beliefs are different than mine.

Maybe at some point, the middle ground, finally raise their voices and tell the far right and far left to STFU, and lets just make our day to day lives better.
 
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These kinds of threads and the snarky passive aggressive behavior they dredge up are good every so often to remind me why closing the political forum was so smart. ;)
Then smack around the offenders. :boxing: The premise of the thread is good and is valuable.

I hear you. But not a fan of "smacking around" posters. Suspensions are sometimes the only option but in general, suspending people is a bad outcome.

It's similar to political candidates who struggle to present their viewpoints without attacking their opponents. On the Mitch Albom show he interviewed the 2 Senate candidates from Michigan. Elissa Slotkin and Mike Rodgers for 20 minutes each on different days. Before the interview with Slotkin he said to her. "During this interview I am not mentioning Mike Rodgers name, nor are you to mention anything about Rodgers. We the voters need to know what you are about, and what you are going to do" Then when Rodgers is on I will ask the same from him.

I listened to both and it was so different and refreshing. Of course than can never happen in a political forum with the personal snark.
 
I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Maybe material wealth and possessions don't really make a person truly happy. #mindblown

Yea, I realize my statement highlighted material wealth, but I feel it's more than that (and we can't get too deep into it without derailing this excellent thread, so I won't). Because it should be easy enough to say "stuff doesn't make me happy - so let's stop with the stuff".

ETA - Doc Oc nailed it pretty good.
 
and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
People want everything to go their way at all times and want everyone to think about all social and political issues in the "correct" way (which is the way they think). This thread is a microcosm of that.

We are a whiney, mostly miserable, society in many ways, and divisive politics (speaking generally, not about one side or the other) keep making it worse and worse. Words like "evil" are throw around way too easily, where "evil" basically just means their political beliefs are different then mine.

Maybe at some point, the middle ground, finally raise their voices and tell the far right and far left to STFU, and lets just make our day to day lives better.

I don't know why people who don't actually work in politics allow politics to determine their (un)happiness. Given the state of politics in our country, I decided long ago that it is not something in which I should invest any of my time and energy, since that would mostly be an exercise in negativity and frustration. I'm certain I am a happier person due to that decision.
 
People being whiney despite having it super good is definitely true, but different than the point that started this conversation, which was that we were accomplishing less and innovating less (haven't been back to the moon, Boeing planes suck now, etc). I still think the latter point is way off. Yes we haven't been back to the moon, because going there was for political reasons that are no longer necessary, but we have accomplished a zillion other things that are unimaginably impressive since and continue to every year.

To the former point that the conversation has shifted to, people are absolutely right. Most people have absurdly awesome lives historically, but still whine about it constantly. I could go on with a bunch of anecdotes about travel and luxuries that are well within reach that never used to be, but another great example is the big bogeyman of this thread....inflation and food prices.

That is probably people's #1 "I think the economy sucks and is really hard" gotcha. But food prices aren't actually that bad historically. Inflation has been so low for so long that we had a lot of wiggle room for prices to come up and still be historically reasonable relative to income. Everyone romanticizes periods like the 40's and 50's but stuff was way more expensive relative to income then. Check these prices on groceries from the 40's, adjusted for inflation.

Rotisserie chicken - $22.39
6 cans of tomato soup - $8.52
3lbs butter - $22
Baguette - $3.20
Dozen eggs - $3.83
Gallon of Milk - $11.19

Some stuff was cheaper or more on par with modern prices, but again that's AFTER our recent inflation bout.
 
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Yes we haven't been back to the moon, because going there was for political reasons that are no longer necessary, but we have accomplished a zillion other things that are unimaginably impressive since and continue to every year.
Slightly off topic, but missions to the moon have picked up again. Seems like something we should be investing more in.
 
Maybe at some point, the middle ground, finally raise their voices and tell the far right and far left to STFU, and lets just make our day to day lives better.
A part of me doesn't want to respond to this because I don't want this thread to get shut down, but this seems too important. This is, and has been, happening. The way the system has been built over the last several decades sows enough discord on either side of them that they're effectively representative-less. The powers that be have just enough on each side that if they distract our citizenry with enough SQUIRREL's they maintain power / paralysis and neutralize the pragmatics somewhere in between.

Until we change this dynamic won't.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
This right here. And it's the social media/mainstream media....24/7 echo chamber effect. I believe that 100%.

Other than this message board and another one (Operation Sports which is also become so toxic with negativity I may finally leave that one) I am not on social media. I also just watch the news once a day.....at dinner at 6PM. And even then...once I am done with dinner I turn it off.

Unfortunately in my business I have a TV on in the background with business news and I keep it really low.....but sometimes the news bleeds thru. Less is more in today's society. I live a relatively stress free life. I am very happy....and I was reading, seeing and hearing so much misery all around. I think it's completly being shoved in peoples faces everyday.

It's sad and I am worried about the future of society in general.

I also have an extremely small circle of friends.....like really small. Anyone who even attempts to drag me into their miserable lives is cut off.....including anyone in my family. I have zero tolerance for what I call "Energy Vampires" in my life. We only get so much time on earth. I am making the most of it.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
This right here. And it's the social media/mainstream media....24/7 echo chamber effect. I believe that 100%.

Other than this message board and another one (Operation Sports which is also become so toxic with negativity I may finally leave that one) I am not on social media. I also just watch the news once a day.....at dinner at 6PM. And even then...once I am done with dinner I turn it off.

Unfortunately in my business I have a TV on in the background with business news and I keep it really low.....but sometimes the news bleeds thru. Less is more in today's society. I live a relatively stress free life. I am very happy....and I was reading, seeing and hearing so much misery all around. I think it's completly being shoved in peoples faces everyday.

It's sad and I am worried about the future of society in general.

I also have an extremely small circle of friends.....like really small. Anyone who even attempts to drag me into their miserable lives is cut off.....including anyone in my family. I have zero tolerance for what I call "Energy Vampires" in my life. We only get so much time on earth. I am making the most of it.
What We Do in the Shadows. Great TV show. Colin Robinson
 
I don't know why people who don't actually work in politics allow politics to determine their (un)happiness. Given the state of politics in our country, I decided long ago that it is not something in which I should invest any of my time and energy, since that would mostly be an exercise in negativity and frustration. I'm certain I am a happier person due to that decision.

Ditto. My wife has one of the cable news channels on in the background pretty much all day long - except for the times its on Bravo, where people are also yelling at each other all day long. She knows if I'm in the house to mute it (she puts it in an earbud usually). It's not because I even disagree with that channel's POV on most things, I often don't, I just don't want to hear it! And I've straight up told her I don't think it's good for her, or anyone else's, mental health to consume that crap all day long. I'd put ESPN in this category now, too, as it's all about disagreement and shouting each other down. No thank you.

Other than this message board and another one (Operation Sports which is also become so toxic with negativity I may finally leave that one) I am not on social media. I also just watch the news once a day.....at dinner at 6PM. And even then...once I am done with dinner I turn it off.

Unfortunately in my business I have a TV on in the background with business news and I keep it really low.....but sometimes the news bleeds thru. Less is more in today's society. I live a relatively stress free life. I am very happy....and I was reading, seeing and hearing so much misery all around. I think it's completly being shoved in peoples faces everyday.

Similar. Business news on all day in the background, and flip to the local news at 5:00. I listen to a couple of 10-15 minute news podcasts every morning and read one daily news email, and a couple of times a week will skim through the local paper. If a topic is of particular interest, I'll seek out a few sources to do a deeper dive. I do use social media, but the algorithms have learned I just don't engage with the political stuff, so I don't see it often (except on Twitter since their algorithm is awful and always has been, but I just scroll on by).



And now back to our "Boeing and kids these days suck" regular programing......
 
I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Maybe material wealth and possessions don't really make a person truly happy. #mindblown
Plus the sacrifices they make to afford all that stuff actually make them miserable, and unhealthy.
 
I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Maybe material wealth and possessions don't really make a person truly happy. #mindblown

Yea, I realize my statement highlighted material wealth, but I feel it's more than that (and we can't get too deep into it without derailing this excellent thread, so I won't). Because it should be easy enough to say "stuff doesn't make me happy - so let's stop with the stuff".

ETA - Doc Oc nailed it pretty good.
It’s both the stuff, and how we’re choosing to occupy our free time.
 
I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Maybe material wealth and possessions don't really make a person truly happy. #mindblown

Yea, I realize my statement highlighted material wealth, but I feel it's more than that (and we can't get too deep into it without derailing this excellent thread, so I won't). Because it should be easy enough to say "stuff doesn't make me happy - so let's stop with the stuff".

ETA - Doc Oc nailed it pretty good.
He did but honestly, stuff is a huge thing nowadays. You read about average credit card debt, realizing it’s likely double that since the truly responsible/rich have none, and you read about the median level of savings for retirement/emergencies. Then you watch social media and look around neighborhoods and wonder how it seems like everyone’s loaded.

I often wonder if people seem mad/miserable is because so many are struggling under the facade of trying to keep up with the Joneses. I look around and wonder myself sometimes. I’m sharing my 9 year old Lexus with my youngest because I don’t want to buy him a new car in case he can’t have one next year at college (his top choice doesn’t allow it) and I see some of the cars kids at his high school drive and it shocks me. I live in probably the nicest neighborhood that go to this school, which is 3rd “richest” in our county, and my car only has a bit over 100k miles, but I almost feel poor at times. Maybe it’s the fact that we have 80%+ equity in our house and haven’t looked at it as an ATM to get a $100k SUV, I don’t really know. Maybe I’m doing it wrong lol!
 
I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Maybe material wealth and possessions don't really make a person truly happy. #mindblown

Yea, I realize my statement highlighted material wealth, but I feel it's more than that (and we can't get too deep into it without derailing this excellent thread, so I won't). Because it should be easy enough to say "stuff doesn't make me happy - so let's stop with the stuff".

ETA - Doc Oc nailed it pretty good.
He did but honestly, stuff is a huge thing nowadays. You read about average credit card debt, realizing it’s likely double that since the truly responsible/rich have none, and you read about the median level of savings for retirement/emergencies. Then you watch social media and look around neighborhoods and wonder how it seems like everyone’s loaded.

I often wonder if people seem mad/miserable is because so many are struggling under the facade of trying to keep up with the Joneses. I look around and wonder myself sometimes. I’m sharing my 9 year old Lexus with my youngest because I don’t want to buy him a new car in case he can’t have one next year at college (his top choice doesn’t allow it) and I see some of the cars kids at his high school drive and it shocks me. I live in probably the nicest neighborhood that go to this school, which is 3rd “richest” in our county, and my car only has a bit over 100k miles, but I almost feel poor at times. Maybe it’s the fact that we have 80%+ equity in our house and haven’t looked at it as an ATM to get a $100k SUV, I don’t really know. Maybe I’m doing it wrong lol!
I agree that's really eye-opening to look at some of the numbers out there on average net worth by age, average retirement savings by age, etc. You start to realize that a lot of these people with $80K pickups are just driving their net worth around.
 
I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Maybe material wealth and possessions don't really make a person truly happy. #mindblown

More likely the swimming pools and trampolines are the problem for these folks.
 
If you would like a non-political example of what societal degradation looks like, ask yourself how it is that the US was able to put a guy on the moon before I was even born, and now we just leave astronauts stranded in space because we can't figure out how to get them back to earth. That's just one little data point. Look around and see if you can notice any others.

The comment I was referring to And no, there was nothing in the comments above this part of the post talking about doors coming off planes. Boeing today is CLEARLY not even the same company it was after their merger. The "gold standard" Boeing was long gone after their merger.

If one wants to talk about meaningful evidence of our degrading society, look no further than the origins of social media. THAT is an example of societal degradation. The Boeing incident is simply evidence of a good company becoming a bad company after a merger.
Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

We seem to be more or less in agreement, but obviously you don't see it that way and I'm not sure why.
For starters "Boeing is not the same as it once was" <> "Boeing's hiccup in their space venture is evidence of our degrading society". I'll ask one less question then I'm done with this. Did you consider all the failures SpaceX had in production of their standard boosters to be a similar bit of evidence towards a degrading society? Or the first 2-3 iterations of their human capsule they couldn't get right?
 
If you would like a non-political example of what societal degradation looks like, ask yourself how it is that the US was able to put a guy on the moon before I was even born, and now we just leave astronauts stranded in space because we can't figure out how to get them back to earth. That's just one little data point. Look around and see if you can notice any others.

The comment I was referring to And no, there was nothing in the comments above this part of the post talking about doors coming off planes. Boeing today is CLEARLY not even the same company it was after their merger. The "gold standard" Boeing was long gone after their merger.

If one wants to talk about meaningful evidence of our degrading society, look no further than the origins of social media. THAT is an example of societal degradation. The Boeing incident is simply evidence of a good company becoming a bad company after a merger.
Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

We seem to be more or less in agreement, but obviously you don't see it that way and I'm not sure why.
For starters "Boeing is not the same as it once was" <> "Boeing's hiccup in their space venture is evidence of our degrading society". I'll ask one less question then I'm done with this. Did you consider all the failures SpaceX had in production of their standard boosters to be a similar bit of evidence towards a degrading society? Or the first 2-3 iterations of their human capsule they couldn't get right?
Why are you so resistant to allowing me to state my own position? I was talking about Boeing's inability to produce reliable aircraft all the way back here. I've pointed that out a couple of times, and you just plow right along as if I'm not allowed to choose my own beliefs. At this point, I'm going to write this off to some personal hostility you seem to harbor toward me, despite the fact that you and I have no history that I can recall.

To your question, no of course I have no worries about SpaceX's assorted failures, for the same reason that I was never too worried about things like the Challenger explosion. Doing new things is risky and there will be setbacks. Boeing being unable to keep the doors on its planes is very different than that, and I think you agree, which is what makes this "argument" so strange. I don't know what we're disagreeing about.

Anyway, I'm going to use the Ignore feature as it was intended, because I'm sure others are getting tired of this back and forth.
 
If you would like a non-political example of what societal degradation looks like, ask yourself how it is that the US was able to put a guy on the moon before I was even born, and now we just leave astronauts stranded in space because we can't figure out how to get them back to earth. That's just one little data point. Look around and see if you can notice any others.

The comment I was referring to And no, there was nothing in the comments above this part of the post talking about doors coming off planes. Boeing today is CLEARLY not even the same company it was after their merger. The "gold standard" Boeing was long gone after their merger.

If one wants to talk about meaningful evidence of our degrading society, look no further than the origins of social media. THAT is an example of societal degradation. The Boeing incident is simply evidence of a good company becoming a bad company after a merger.
Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

We seem to be more or less in agreement, but obviously you don't see it that way and I'm not sure why.
For starters "Boeing is not the same as it once was" <> "Boeing's hiccup in their space venture is evidence of our degrading society". I'll ask one less question then I'm done with this. Did you consider all the failures SpaceX had in production of their standard boosters to be a similar bit of evidence towards a degrading society? Or the first 2-3 iterations of their human capsule they couldn't get right?
Why are you so resistant to allowing me to state my own position? I was talking about Boeing's inability to produce reliable aircraft all the way back here. I've pointed that out a couple of times, and you just plow right along as if I'm not allowed to choose my own beliefs. At this point, I'm going to write this off to some personal hostility you seem to harbor toward me, despite the fact that you and I have no history that I can recall.

To your question, no of course I have no worries about SpaceX's assorted failures, for the same reason that I was never too worried about things like the Challenger explosion. Doing new things is risky and there will be setbacks. Boeing being unable to keep the doors on its planes is very different than that, and I think you agree, which is what makes this "argument" so strange. I don't know what we're disagreeing about.

Anyway, I'm going to use the Ignore feature as it was intended, because I'm sure others are getting tired of this back and forth.
That post is WELL after the one I have made clear I was talking about. I have no problem with you saying whatever you want. Go for it. The only thing I see resistance on is push back when someone disagrees with the comment you make. I'd have to be far more invested in the conversation to have any emotion tied to it (either positive or negative). I simply disagree that Boeing's failure in their space capsule is evidence of "societal degradation" for two primary reasons. #1, this is their first venture into this phase of space exploration. #2. Boeing today can't really be compared to Boeing from years ago. That company is basically McD Douglas with lipstick on now. The changes in management and approach have been significant in recent years and you are seeing the results in unfortunate ways. You've given the benefit of the doubt for #1 to companies like SpaceX, but not Boeing and that seems inconsistent, so I pointed it out.

I DO agree that Boeing keeping doors on a plane is a problem. However, I will stop short of going so far as to say that this is society degrading. It's an example of a poorly run company putting outputs over outcome in a quest to maximize profits. And those kinds of companies and approaches to business have existed since the beginning of time.
 
I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Maybe material wealth and possessions don't really make a person truly happy. #mindblown

Yea, I realize my statement highlighted material wealth, but I feel it's more than that (and we can't get too deep into it without derailing this excellent thread, so I won't). Because it should be easy enough to say "stuff doesn't make me happy - so let's stop with the stuff".

ETA - Doc Oc nailed it pretty good.
He did but honestly, stuff is a huge thing nowadays. You read about average credit card debt, realizing it’s likely double that since the truly responsible/rich have none, and you read about the median level of savings for retirement/emergencies. Then you watch social media and look around neighborhoods and wonder how it seems like everyone’s loaded.

I often wonder if people seem mad/miserable is because so many are struggling under the facade of trying to keep up with the Joneses. I look around and wonder myself sometimes. I’m sharing my 9 year old Lexus with my youngest because I don’t want to buy him a new car in case he can’t have one next year at college (his top choice doesn’t allow it) and I see some of the cars kids at his high school drive and it shocks me. I live in probably the nicest neighborhood that go to this school, which is 3rd “richest” in our county, and my car only has a bit over 100k miles, but I almost feel poor at times. Maybe it’s the fact that we have 80%+ equity in our house and haven’t looked at it as an ATM to get a $100k SUV, I don’t really know. Maybe I’m doing it wrong lol!
I agree that's really eye-opening to look at some of the numbers out there on average net worth by age, average retirement savings by age, etc. You start to realize that a lot of these people with $80K pickups are just driving their net worth around.
Yet the streets aren’t overflowing with destitute seniors. Homelessness is increasing though, and it will be interesting to see if that trend continues.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Less anecdotal but very related
 
Did you consider all the failures SpaceX had in production of their standard boosters to be a similar bit of evidence towards a degrading society? Or the first 2-3 iterations of their human capsule they couldn't get right?

Totally not on the economy, but I'm in this industry, so can shed some light. SpaceX has always followed the build-fail-learn-build modus operandi. Boeing has followed the "analyze to death and pretest lots". That's what makes the Boeing issue stand out (that and the fact it's manned flight) - they didn't have a history of failures. I don't consider either company in this sphere to be bad actors - both are getting there. I'd fully expect Boeing to nail down the issue they had on the last flight. It is also good to note the Boeing space folks aren't the same as the Boeing plane folks.

The Boeing plane issues are much more troublesome. After their brilliant work to implement composite bodies (truly a monumental achievement) their lack of attention to many critical items - flight control software with no redundancy, allowing fake metal parts into the supply chain, etc. is horrific. It's a damn near zero tolerance business with massive factors of safety for a reason. And it wasn't like they were losing money. Planes were and are a very profitable business. It isn't a societal collapse, but it's a company with a bucketload of hubris that desperately needs a thorough cleaning.

Anyway, back to seeing if Powell coughs at dinner.
 
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It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Less anecdotal but very related

Yeah that's the nature of living in a place like CA for most. If you bought long enough ago down there, and haven't pulled all the equity out of your home, you've likely got a 7-figure net worth sitting in your house. But if you've tried to get in during the last decade or two and are upper middle class or below, pretty good chance that you are house poor.

When we moved up here after renting down there for years, we qualified for much more than I had in mind based on where I wanted to be for my monthly mortgage payments. With rates sub-3%, my mortgage broker buddy suggested I stretch a little and get more house than what we were looking at. But I saw that as reducing potential future financial flexibility, so stuck to the range we already had in mind. Would I like to have a little bigger kitchen and yard? Sure would. But I'm still happy with the decision.

Of course I also bought the first new car of my life at age 50 when we moved up here (a Subaru Outback, as required by Oregon law). So I'm not too focused on keeping up with the ol' Joneses.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Less anecdotal but very related

Yeah that's the nature of living in a place like CA for most. If you bought long enough ago down there, and haven't pulled all the equity out of your home, you've likely got a 7-figure net worth sitting in your house. But if you've tried to get in during the last decade or two and are upper middle class or below, pretty good chance that you are house poor.

When we moved up here after renting down there for years, we qualified for much more than I had in mind based on where I wanted to be for my monthly mortgage payments. With rates sub-3%, my mortgage broker buddy suggested I stretch a little and get more house than what we were looking at. But I saw that as reducing potential future financial flexibility, so stuck to the range we already had in mind. Would I like to have a little bigger kitchen and yard? Sure would. But I'm still happy with the decision.

Of course I also bought the first new car of my life at age 50 when we moved up here (a Subaru Outback, as required by Oregon law). So I'm not too focused on keeping up with the ol' Joneses.
It's not just CA / the coast. Median family income in OH is $70k. Median home value is $240k. Only two 5 star school districts exist in all of metro Cleveland with a median home value under that number.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Less anecdotal but very related

Yeah that's the nature of living in a place like CA for most. If you bought long enough ago down there, and haven't pulled all the equity out of your home, you've likely got a 7-figure net worth sitting in your house. But if you've tried to get in during the last decade or two and are upper middle class or below, pretty good chance that you are house poor.

When we moved up here after renting down there for years, we qualified for much more than I had in mind based on where I wanted to be for my monthly mortgage payments. With rates sub-3%, my mortgage broker buddy suggested I stretch a little and get more house than what we were looking at. But I saw that as reducing potential future financial flexibility, so stuck to the range we already had in mind. Would I like to have a little bigger kitchen and yard? Sure would. But I'm still happy with the decision.

Of course I also bought the first new car of my life at age 50 when we moved up here (a Subaru Outback, as required by Oregon law). So I'm not too focused on keeping up with the ol' Joneses.
It's not just CA / the coast. Median family income in OH is $70k. Median home value is $240k. Only two 5 star school districts exist in all of metro Cleveland with a median home value under that number.
I think the recommended home price:income ratio is between 2-3. So Ohio is a little above that, but hardly comparable to the coasts.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Less anecdotal but very related

Yeah that's the nature of living in a place like CA for most. If you bought long enough ago down there, and haven't pulled all the equity out of your home, you've likely got a 7-figure net worth sitting in your house. But if you've tried to get in during the last decade or two and are upper middle class or below, pretty good chance that you are house poor.

When we moved up here after renting down there for years, we qualified for much more than I had in mind based on where I wanted to be for my monthly mortgage payments. With rates sub-3%, my mortgage broker buddy suggested I stretch a little and get more house than what we were looking at. But I saw that as reducing potential future financial flexibility, so stuck to the range we already had in mind. Would I like to have a little bigger kitchen and yard? Sure would. But I'm still happy with the decision.

Of course I also bought the first new car of my life at age 50 when we moved up here (a Subaru Outback, as required by Oregon law). So I'm not too focused on keeping up with the ol' Joneses.
It's not just CA / the coast. Median family income in OH is $70k. Median home value is $240k. Only two 5 star school districts exist in all of metro Cleveland with a median home value under that number.
I think the recommended home price:income ratio is between 2-3. So Ohio is a little above that, but hardly comparable to the coasts.
There are 20 five star school districts in NE Ohio. The midpoint home value among those communities is $450k. I mentioned the 2 cheapest, the 3rd? $325k.

This is not just a coastal problem. Middle class families cannot even afford to live in good school districts in flyover country.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Less anecdotal but very related

Yeah that's the nature of living in a place like CA for most. If you bought long enough ago down there, and haven't pulled all the equity out of your home, you've likely got a 7-figure net worth sitting in your house. But if you've tried to get in during the last decade or two and are upper middle class or below, pretty good chance that you are house poor.

When we moved up here after renting down there for years, we qualified for much more than I had in mind based on where I wanted to be for my monthly mortgage payments. With rates sub-3%, my mortgage broker buddy suggested I stretch a little and get more house than what we were looking at. But I saw that as reducing potential future financial flexibility, so stuck to the range we already had in mind. Would I like to have a little bigger kitchen and yard? Sure would. But I'm still happy with the decision.

Of course I also bought the first new car of my life at age 50 when we moved up here (a Subaru Outback, as required by Oregon law). So I'm not too focused on keeping up with the ol' Joneses.
It's not just CA / the coast. Median family income in OH is $70k. Median home value is $240k. Only two 5 star school districts exist in all of metro Cleveland with a median home value under that number.
I think the recommended home price:income ratio is between 2-3. So Ohio is a little above that, but hardly comparable to the coasts.
There are 20 five star school districts in NE Ohio. The midpoint home value among those communities is $450k. I mentioned the 2 cheapest, the 3rd? $325k.

This is not just a coastal problem. Middle class families cannot even afford to live in good school districts in flyover country.
What is the historic premium for living in a 5-star school district? Were those homes extremely affordable in the past?

ETA I’m not trying to be argumentative. Having no firsthand experience, I just assumed good school districts have always been pricier.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Less anecdotal but very related

Yeah that's the nature of living in a place like CA for most. If you bought long enough ago down there, and haven't pulled all the equity out of your home, you've likely got a 7-figure net worth sitting in your house. But if you've tried to get in during the last decade or two and are upper middle class or below, pretty good chance that you are house poor.

When we moved up here after renting down there for years, we qualified for much more than I had in mind based on where I wanted to be for my monthly mortgage payments. With rates sub-3%, my mortgage broker buddy suggested I stretch a little and get more house than what we were looking at. But I saw that as reducing potential future financial flexibility, so stuck to the range we already had in mind. Would I like to have a little bigger kitchen and yard? Sure would. But I'm still happy with the decision.

Of course I also bought the first new car of my life at age 50 when we moved up here (a Subaru Outback, as required by Oregon law). So I'm not too focused on keeping up with the ol' Joneses.
It's not just CA / the coast. Median family income in OH is $70k. Median home value is $240k. Only two 5 star school districts exist in all of metro Cleveland with a median home value under that number.
Cleveland isn't the best example as they spent money on the Rock and Roll HOF, the Jake, etc. instead of schools that their decent school districts are almost nonexistent.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Less anecdotal but very related

Yeah that's the nature of living in a place like CA for most. If you bought long enough ago down there, and haven't pulled all the equity out of your home, you've likely got a 7-figure net worth sitting in your house. But if you've tried to get in during the last decade or two and are upper middle class or below, pretty good chance that you are house poor.

When we moved up here after renting down there for years, we qualified for much more than I had in mind based on where I wanted to be for my monthly mortgage payments. With rates sub-3%, my mortgage broker buddy suggested I stretch a little and get more house than what we were looking at. But I saw that as reducing potential future financial flexibility, so stuck to the range we already had in mind. Would I like to have a little bigger kitchen and yard? Sure would. But I'm still happy with the decision.

Of course I also bought the first new car of my life at age 50 when we moved up here (a Subaru Outback, as required by Oregon law). So I'm not too focused on keeping up with the ol' Joneses.
It's not just CA / the coast. Median family income in OH is $70k. Median home value is $240k. Only two 5 star school districts exist in all of metro Cleveland with a median home value under that number.
I think the recommended home price:income ratio is between 2-3. So Ohio is a little above that, but hardly comparable to the coasts.
There are 20 five star school districts in NE Ohio. The midpoint home value among those communities is $450k. I mentioned the 2 cheapest, the 3rd? $325k.

This is not just a coastal problem. Middle class families cannot even afford to live in good school districts in flyover country.
What is the historic premium for living in a 5-star school district? Were those homes extremely affordable in the past?

ETA I’m not trying to be argumentative. Having no firsthand experience, I just assumed good school districts have always been pricier.
Most of them, yes. Median family income in 2010 was ~$55k. Spot checked the neighboring town with a current median home value near the midpoint of $450k. In 2010? It was $205k. From a < 4:1 ratio to 6.5:1.

Anecdotally checks too. Most of our friends that live there now say they couldn't afford to get in now.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Less anecdotal but very related

Yeah that's the nature of living in a place like CA for most. If you bought long enough ago down there, and haven't pulled all the equity out of your home, you've likely got a 7-figure net worth sitting in your house. But if you've tried to get in during the last decade or two and are upper middle class or below, pretty good chance that you are house poor.

When we moved up here after renting down there for years, we qualified for much more than I had in mind based on where I wanted to be for my monthly mortgage payments. With rates sub-3%, my mortgage broker buddy suggested I stretch a little and get more house than what we were looking at. But I saw that as reducing potential future financial flexibility, so stuck to the range we already had in mind. Would I like to have a little bigger kitchen and yard? Sure would. But I'm still happy with the decision.

Of course I also bought the first new car of my life at age 50 when we moved up here (a Subaru Outback, as required by Oregon law). So I'm not too focused on keeping up with the ol' Joneses.
It's not just CA / the coast. Median family income in OH is $70k. Median home value is $240k. Only two 5 star school districts exist in all of metro Cleveland with a median home value under that number.
Cleveland isn't the best example as they spent money on the Rock and Roll HOF, the Jake, etc. instead of schools that their decent school districts are almost nonexistent.
Lots of great school districts here. Just not in Cleveland proper. They're in suburban sprawl.
 
Did you consider all the failures SpaceX had in production of their standard boosters to be a similar bit of evidence towards a degrading society? Or the first 2-3 iterations of their human capsule they couldn't get right?

Totally not on the economy, but I'm in this industry, so can shed some light. SpaceX has always followed the build-fail-learn-build modus operandi. Boeing has followed the "analyze to death and pretest lots". That's what makes the Boeing issue stand out (that and the fact it's manned flight) - they didn't have a history of failures. I don't consider either company in this sphere to be bad actors - both are getting there. I'd fully expect Boeing to nail down the issue they had on the last flight. It is also good to note the Boeing space folks aren't the same as the Boeing plane folks.

The Boeing plane issues are much more troublesome. After their brilliant work to implement composite bodies (truly a monumental achievement) their lack of attention to many critical items - flight control software with no redundancy, allowing fake metal parts into the supply chain, etc. is horrific. It's a damn near zero tolerance business with massive factors of safety for a reason. And it wasn't like they were losing money. Planes were and are a very profitable business. It isn't a societal collapse, but it's a company with a bucketload of hubris that desperately needs a thorough cleaning.

Anyway, back to seeing if Powell coughs at dinner.
Thanks for the illustration of the point. There has been a crystal clear shift at Boeing post merger IMO. You highlight part of that here. This nuance was needed above.
 
With all due respect, who cares about Boeing? This tangent has completely derailed the thread. Let’s move on.
The problem is that Boeing was used illustrate what one person said indicated why our economy and society are deteriorating. Since this is a topic about the economy, whether it's getting better or worse, and how, --- there's a lot of rebuttal from others who don't agree that Boeing's recent problems illustrate a reason for decline in the economy or a decline in society as a whole.

So maybe it seems like derailing, but it has brought out some interesting information and informed opinion, and I don't think it'll change the course of the topic overall. If it had turned the resulting discussion into uninformed bickering I'd agree with you that the thread was derailed. But there's been good talk since that claim was made, and I'm guessing the thread will slog along just fine.
 
It’s The Matrix. Everyone is droning thru life now….ignorance is bliss and who knows maybe we are really all just batteries for the machines.

Yes, Boeing is not the same company that it used to be. That's what I was saying.

Yes, social media is a problem. I totally agree. A wonderful example that I've used myself many times.

You keep agreeing with me, but you seem very angry about it.

I definitely agree with you and Jayrod Ivan. I feel, like Todem just mentioned, that there's a certain apathy / mailing-it-in amongst all sectors, both commercial and social. It does tie into social media and other things we can't really talk about. But we're unhappy about things we should be happy about. I know many, many people living in $300+k houses, 2 nice cars, vacations, with swimming pools and trampolines in their yards... and yet they are mad about nearly everything. That can't be a good sign.
Less anecdotal but very related

Yeah that's the nature of living in a place like CA for most. If you bought long enough ago down there, and haven't pulled all the equity out of your home, you've likely got a 7-figure net worth sitting in your house. But if you've tried to get in during the last decade or two and are upper middle class or below, pretty good chance that you are house poor.

When we moved up here after renting down there for years, we qualified for much more than I had in mind based on where I wanted to be for my monthly mortgage payments. With rates sub-3%, my mortgage broker buddy suggested I stretch a little and get more house than what we were looking at. But I saw that as reducing potential future financial flexibility, so stuck to the range we already had in mind. Would I like to have a little bigger kitchen and yard? Sure would. But I'm still happy with the decision.

Of course I also bought the first new car of my life at age 50 when we moved up here (a Subaru Outback, as required by Oregon law). So I'm not too focused on keeping up with the ol' Joneses.
It's not just CA / the coast. Median family income in OH is $70k. Median home value is $240k. Only two 5 star school districts exist in all of metro Cleveland with a median home value under that number.
Cleveland isn't the best example as they spent money on the Rock and Roll HOF, the Jake, etc. instead of schools that their decent school districts are almost nonexistent.
Lots of great school districts here. Just not in Cleveland proper. They're in suburban sprawl.
The suburban sprawl spent their revenue wisely. Cleveland didn't.
 
The suburban sprawl spent their revenue wisely. Cleveland didn't.
It's more than that but from a 30,000 foot view this ain't wrong. This dynamic is playing a major role why we're seeing urban population decline and will continue to. Have's vs have-not's.
 
Listened to an analyst breakdown the last jobs report and it painted a gloomy picture when you dive into the numbers.

Full time jobs have flatlined and well off the pace of growth we experienced between 2010-2020. Acknowledging the growing population this shows a weakened economy.

Part time jobs have hit an all time high. Part time work was trending down in the 2010s until covid. It has rebounded and pushed to new highs with a pretty aggressive trend line. Part time jobs increasing is also a sign of a weakened economy.

The % of working people holding multiple part time jobs has been on the decline since the 90s. That line held steady in 2010-2020, but since covid, that trend line is now spiking again. Thus, indicating households are not as well off as they had been historically.

SEP 2024 was the biggest increase in government jobs on record outside of 2020 rehires. Government jobs are a net drain on the economy. These are your tax dollars supporting more government vice jobs that produce wealth for the economy.
 
Listened to an analyst breakdown the last jobs report and it painted a gloomy picture when you dive into the numbers.

Full time jobs have flatlined and well off the pace of growth we experienced between 2010-2020. Acknowledging the growing population this shows a weakened economy.

Part time jobs have hit an all time high. Part time work was trending down in the 2010s until covid. It has rebounded and pushed to new highs with a pretty aggressive trend line. Part time jobs increasing is also a sign of a weakened economy.

The % of working people holding multiple part time jobs has been on the decline since the 90s. That line held steady in 2010-2020, but since covid, that trend line is now spiking again. Thus, indicating households are not as well off as they had been historically.

SEP 2024 was the biggest increase in government jobs on record outside of 2020 rehires. Government jobs are a net drain on the economy. These are your tax dollars supporting more government vice jobs that produce wealth for the economy.
Well that's a rosy picture
 
Listened to an analyst breakdown the last jobs report and it painted a gloomy picture when you dive into the numbers.

Full time jobs have flatlined and well off the pace of growth we experienced between 2010-2020. Acknowledging the growing population this shows a weakened economy.

Part time jobs have hit an all time high. Part time work was trending down in the 2010s until covid. It has rebounded and pushed to new highs with a pretty aggressive trend line. Part time jobs increasing is also a sign of a weakened economy.

The % of working people holding multiple part time jobs has been on the decline since the 90s. That line held steady in 2010-2020, but since covid, that trend line is now spiking again. Thus, indicating households are not as well off as they had been historically.

SEP 2024 was the biggest increase in government jobs on record outside of 2020 rehires. Government jobs are a net drain on the economy. These are your tax dollars supporting more government vice jobs that produce wealth for the economy.
what happened to 2021-2023?
 
Listened to an analyst breakdown the last jobs report and it painted a gloomy picture when you dive into the numbers.

Full time jobs have flatlined and well off the pace of growth we experienced between 2010-2020. Acknowledging the growing population this shows a weakened economy.

Part time jobs have hit an all time high. Part time work was trending down in the 2010s until covid. It has rebounded and pushed to new highs with a pretty aggressive trend line. Part time jobs increasing is also a sign of a weakened economy.

The % of working people holding multiple part time jobs has been on the decline since the 90s. That line held steady in 2010-2020, but since covid, that trend line is now spiking again. Thus, indicating households are not as well off as they had been historically.

SEP 2024 was the biggest increase in government jobs on record outside of 2020 rehires. Government jobs are a net drain on the economy. These are your tax dollars supporting more government vice jobs that produce wealth for the economy.
what happened to 2021-2023?
What do you mean? Obviously covid tilted everything.
 
Listened to an analyst breakdown the last jobs report and it painted a gloomy picture when you dive into the numbers.

Full time jobs have flatlined and well off the pace of growth we experienced between 2010-2020. Acknowledging the growing population this shows a weakened economy.

Part time jobs have hit an all time high. Part time work was trending down in the 2010s until covid. It has rebounded and pushed to new highs with a pretty aggressive trend line. Part time jobs increasing is also a sign of a weakened economy.

The % of working people holding multiple part time jobs has been on the decline since the 90s. That line held steady in 2010-2020, but since covid, that trend line is now spiking again. Thus, indicating households are not as well off as they had been historically.

SEP 2024 was the biggest increase in government jobs on record outside of 2020 rehires. Government jobs are a net drain on the economy. These are your tax dollars supporting more government vice jobs that produce wealth for the economy.
what happened to 2021-2023?
What do you mean? Obviously covid tilted everything.
i just meant why did you say pace of growth between 2010 -2020, rather than 2010-2023? 2020 was the big down year and 21-23 were big up years so was just a little confused
 
Listened to an analyst breakdown the last jobs report and it painted a gloomy picture when you dive into the numbers.

Full time jobs have flatlined and well off the pace of growth we experienced between 2010-2020. Acknowledging the growing population this shows a weakened economy.

Part time jobs have hit an all time high. Part time work was trending down in the 2010s until covid. It has rebounded and pushed to new highs with a pretty aggressive trend line. Part time jobs increasing is also a sign of a weakened economy.

The % of working people holding multiple part time jobs has been on the decline since the 90s. That line held steady in 2010-2020, but since covid, that trend line is now spiking again. Thus, indicating households are not as well off as they had been historically.

SEP 2024 was the biggest increase in government jobs on record outside of 2020 rehires. Government jobs are a net drain on the economy. These are your tax dollars supporting more government vice jobs that produce wealth for the economy.
what happened to 2021-2023?
What do you mean? Obviously covid tilted everything.
i just meant why did you say pace of growth between 2010 -2020, rather than 2010-2023? 2020 was the big down year and 21-23 were big up years so was just a little confused
Because covid caused a large outlier in the jobs data. The 21-22 job recovery rate was great, but that also isn't a true trend line that can be sustained. The same way the 2020 job loss was due to once in a generation event that shouldn't reflect on the how the economy performs in the long term.

Ultimately this is just chunking out the data in different segments to compare our economy and job growth over periods of time.
 
Listened to an analyst breakdown the last jobs report and it painted a gloomy picture when you dive into the numbers.

Full time jobs have flatlined and well off the pace of growth we experienced between 2010-2020. Acknowledging the growing population this shows a weakened economy.

Part time jobs have hit an all time high. Part time work was trending down in the 2010s until covid. It has rebounded and pushed to new highs with a pretty aggressive trend line. Part time jobs increasing is also a sign of a weakened economy.

The % of working people holding multiple part time jobs has been on the decline since the 90s. That line held steady in 2010-2020, but since covid, that trend line is now spiking again. Thus, indicating households are not as well off as they had been historically.

SEP 2024 was the biggest increase in government jobs on record outside of 2020 rehires. Government jobs are a net drain on the economy. These are your tax dollars supporting more government vice jobs that produce wealth for the economy.
what happened to 2021-2023?
What do you mean? Obviously covid tilted everything.
i just meant why did you say pace of growth between 2010 -2020, rather than 2010-2023? 2020 was the big down year and 21-23 were big up years so was just a little confused
Because covid caused a large outlier in the jobs data. The 21-22 job recovery rate was great, but that also isn't a true trend line that can be sustained. The same way the 2020 job loss was due to once in a generation event that shouldn't reflect on the how the economy performs in the long term.

Ultimately this is just chunking out the data in different segments to compare our economy and job growth over periods of time.
2021 made up for all the losses of 2020, then 2022, 2023 and even 2024 YTD were all the largest job growth years back to 2010 (in terms of absolute #s)
 
Listened to an analyst breakdown the last jobs report and it painted a gloomy picture when you dive into the numbers.

Full time jobs have flatlined and well off the pace of growth we experienced between 2010-2020. Acknowledging the growing population this shows a weakened economy.

Part time jobs have hit an all time high. Part time work was trending down in the 2010s until covid. It has rebounded and pushed to new highs with a pretty aggressive trend line. Part time jobs increasing is also a sign of a weakened economy.

The % of working people holding multiple part time jobs has been on the decline since the 90s. That line held steady in 2010-2020, but since covid, that trend line is now spiking again. Thus, indicating households are not as well off as they had been historically.

SEP 2024 was the biggest increase in government jobs on record outside of 2020 rehires. Government jobs are a net drain on the economy. These are your tax dollars supporting more government vice jobs that produce wealth for the economy.
what happened to 2021-2023?
What do you mean? Obviously covid tilted everything.
i just meant why did you say pace of growth between 2010 -2020, rather than 2010-2023? 2020 was the big down year and 21-23 were big up years so was just a little confused
Because covid caused a large outlier in the jobs data. The 21-22 job recovery rate was great, but that also isn't a true trend line that can be sustained. The same way the 2020 job loss was due to once in a generation event that shouldn't reflect on the how the economy performs in the long term.

Ultimately this is just chunking out the data in different segments to compare our economy and job growth over periods of time.
2021 made up for all the losses of 2020, then 2022, 2023 and even 2024 YTD were all the largest job growth years back to 2010 (in terms of absolute #s)
And our workforce population is increasing to drive those numbers up. The concern is the % of workers with full time jobs is dropping, while part time employment and multiple job workers are on the rise. Those aren't indicators of a strong economy.

There was a stat over the last year the US has replaced 1.6 million full time jobs with 1.8m part time jobs and we call that growth.
 
A link to this analysis @Max Power would be helpful

This is the video that info is from.
I'll also say as a government worker myself, I found his take on government workers to be eye-opening. Framing it the way he does makes sense.
 
We are a whiney, mostly miserable, society in many ways,
Is this really your impression of society?

I may lead a sheltered existence, but feel like a small, albeit vocal minority are whiny and miserable. Most people in my day-to-day experience seem pretty content with their lot in life.

That's a great question and point.

My intuition is we're overall much less whiny than it seems. Simply because the whining is amplified.
 
Listened to an analyst breakdown the last jobs report and it painted a gloomy picture when you dive into the numbers.

Full time jobs have flatlined and well off the pace of growth we experienced between 2010-2020. Acknowledging the growing population this shows a weakened economy.

Part time jobs have hit an all time high. Part time work was trending down in the 2010s until covid. It has rebounded and pushed to new highs with a pretty aggressive trend line. Part time jobs increasing is also a sign of a weakened economy.

The % of working people holding multiple part time jobs has been on the decline since the 90s. That line held steady in 2010-2020, but since covid, that trend line is now spiking again. Thus, indicating households are not as well off as they had been historically.

SEP 2024 was the biggest increase in government jobs on record outside of 2020 rehires. Government jobs are a net drain on the economy. These are your tax dollars supporting more government vice jobs that produce wealth for the economy.
what happened to 2021-2023?
What do you mean? Obviously covid tilted everything.
i just meant why did you say pace of growth between 2010 -2020, rather than 2010-2023? 2020 was the big down year and 21-23 were big up years so was just a little confused
Because covid caused a large outlier in the jobs data. The 21-22 job recovery rate was great, but that also isn't a true trend line that can be sustained. The same way the 2020 job loss was due to once in a generation event that shouldn't reflect on the how the economy performs in the long term.

Ultimately this is just chunking out the data in different segments to compare our economy and job growth over periods of time.
2021 made up for all the losses of 2020, then 2022, 2023 and even 2024 YTD were all the largest job growth years back to 2010 (in terms of absolute #s)
And our workforce population is increasing to drive those numbers up. The concern is the % of workers with full time jobs is dropping, while part time employment and multiple job workers are on the rise. Those aren't indicators of a strong economy.

There was a stat over the last year the US has replaced 1.6 million full time jobs with 1.8m part time jobs and we call that growth.
looks like chart only goes through 2022 but % of full-time hit a high then. part-time work is increasing due to more a 'gig' economy due to Uber/doordash drivers, etc.

 

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