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Vernon Davis: Kleinsasser or Gates? (1 Viewer)

Is V. Davis the next J. Kleinsasser or A. Gates?

  • The next Jimmy Kleinsasser (his physical specimen-ness wont translate into greatness)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The next Antonio Gates (his measurables are just the beginning)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Somewhere in between (Anywhere from Cooley to Shockey)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

Rev

Footballguy
I saw Jimmy K in college, and the dude was a freak. Sub 4.5 40... strong as an ox... blew by d-backs like they were standing still. But he's just a decent, NFL tight end.

I love Davis, but I'm wondering about all the "Antonio Gates II" talk. Here's the thing: Among his other attributes, Gates is super agile, making cuts and jukes that make him look like a half-back. We all know that Davis is strong and fast, but compared to the other tight ends in the draft, Davis' agility drill numbers (cone and shuttle) stats were average if memory serves me right (anyone have the stats on this, that would sure help).

Chime in if you have stats or thoughts. :popcorn:

 
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UnknownCoach

Footballguy
You are right about Gates. Gates's body isnt anything special at all. Its his instincts that make him great.

Kleinsasser is a bad comparisson though. He was/is more of a fullback than a tight end. Davis is a legitimate TE prospect.

All this talk of Davis being a better prospect than Winslow and Shockey is crap. He's faster. He's an athlete. But he doesnt have the attitude nor the genes of those two. Winslow and Shockey bring fiestiness and natural instincts to the table.

In today's NFL when TEs are being thrown to frequently, you have to love Davis as a prospect. But he doesnt deserve the comparisons he's getting. He's different than all those guys because he's faster but he's not better. Judge Davis for who he is. Stop comparing him to players he's not like.

 

Sigmund Bloom

Footballguy
Staff member
I think of Davis as Crumpler with Watson's athleticism. The scary thing about him is that he can create mismatches with both his speed and strength and then punish defensive backs in the open field. He is not the ultrainstinctive receiver that Gates is. I don't see Davis joining Gates in the uberstud TE tier. I can see him being at the top of the "best of the rest" tier once Gonzo starts to decline.

 

cstu

Footballguy
I think of Davis as Crumpler with Watson's athleticism. The scary thing about him is that he can create mismatches with both his speed and strength and then punish defensive backs in the open field. He is not the ultrainstinctive receiver that Gates is. I don't see Davis joining Gates in the uberstud TE tier. I can see him being at the top of the "best of the rest" tier once Gonzo starts to decline.
If Davis goes to the 49ers then he'll be in a perfect situation for a stud TE. Just look at what Eric Johnson did in that vacuum.
 

Family Matters

Footballguy
I don't think he'll play hoops or FB
Have you seen him play? He's in your area isn't he? Can you share your observations. So far I've only seen some highlites. Of course he looks great but that doesn't tell the whole picture.
 

Imedos

Footballguy
Anywhere from Cooley to Shockey
There's a much wider range appropriate here.
For redraft, I agree.But for dynasty, I wouldn't quite dismiss it as inappropriate, esp depending on how far Cooley slides down each individual's personal rankings.

Not even taking into account his highlights, college career, and combine results, you are looking at a really special TE by just looking at draft history.

He is projected by many to go top 10 in what is supposed to be a deep draft at the top(in a year deep at TE no less), and is considered one of the reasons why that top of the draft is deep. And this is from a position where physical specimans typically go late first/ high 2nd at the earliest. Add to that how Winslow was considered by many to be the best TE prospect ever, and VD is slotted to go somewhere close to the same area, and you have someone that should be very interesting to follow.

:popcorn:

 
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BlueOnion

Footballguy
Couple of 'Sasser notes.

'Sasser has two boards pertruding from his shoulders and there are no hands at the end of these boards.

'Sasser (although fast) is a bruising 275+ pound blocker. By no means does he have any agility downfield running routes.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
Anywhere from Cooley to Shockey
There's a much wider range appropriate here.
For redraft, I agree.But for dynasty, I wouldn't quite dismiss it as inappropriate, esp depending on how far Cooley slides down each individual's personal rankings.

Not even taking into account his highlights, college career, and combine results, you are looking at a really special TE by just looking at draft history.

He is projected by many to go top 10 in what is supposed to be a deep draft at the top(in a year deep at TE no less), and is considered one of the reasons why that top of the draft is deep. And this is from a position where physical specimans typically go late first/ high 2nd at the earliest. Add to that how Winslow was considered by many to be the best TE prospect ever, and VD is slotted to go somewhere close to the same area, and you have someone that should be very interesting to follow.

:popcorn:
I completely understand the hype around Davis, and FWIW, will probably draft him in at least one league.But, Shockey is the #2 TE, Cooley, by many accounts, ranks somewhere between 5 and 10. Is it completely unfathomable that both Shockey and Cooley do better than Davis in FF?

 

Imedos

Footballguy
Anywhere from Cooley to Shockey
There's a much wider range appropriate here.
For redraft, I agree.But for dynasty, I wouldn't quite dismiss it as inappropriate, esp depending on how far Cooley slides down each individual's personal rankings.

Not even taking into account his highlights, college career, and combine results, you are looking at a really special TE by just looking at draft history.

He is projected by many to go top 10 in what is supposed to be a deep draft at the top(in a year deep at TE no less), and is considered one of the reasons why that top of the draft is deep. And this is from a position where physical specimans typically go late first/ high 2nd at the earliest. Add to that how Winslow was considered by many to be the best TE prospect ever, and VD is slotted to go somewhere close to the same area, and you have someone that should be very interesting to follow.

:popcorn:
I completely understand the hype around Davis, and FWIW, will probably draft him in at least one league.But, Shockey is the #2 TE, Cooley, by many accounts, ranks somewhere between 5 and 10. Is it completely unfathomable that both Shockey and Cooley do better than Davis in FF?
You have a point. It just depends where someone personally ranks Cooley. If you do have him ranked at 4 or 5, well, that doesn't leave much margin for error now does it. :) perhaps Shockey to McMichael. I think I could safely say McMichael is the cream of the 3rd tier of TEs.

It's weird how many great TEs there are in the league now. The ff TE position used to be devalued because they all sucked(save for 2 or 3), but now it's devalued because there's almost enough to get a stud for every ff team.

 

Bri

Footballguy
I don't think he'll play hoops or FB
Have you seen him play? He's in your area isn't he? Can you share your observations. So far I've only seen some highlites. Of course he looks great but that doesn't tell the whole picture.
I've never seen him play live.I don't follow college ball.

"no one" lives in my area as I'm "in the sticks"

 

LBH

Footballguy
from the clips I've seen, he looks like he's going to be a great TE. Big, super fast, and has good hands. Seems like a pretty good combo to me

 

cws3030

Footballguy
i had a chance to catch a few maryland games this year and knowing nothing about him during those games, i remember thinking to myself that this guy is going to be a top-10 pick. he catches everything and made some amazing plays. he is for real, you just never know where he ends up though and how that will effect his production his first few years. i still think if farve comes back he could be a packer which would be great for his #'s

 

Bri

Footballguy
i had a chance to catch a few maryland games this year and knowing nothing about him during those games, i remember thinking to myself that this guy is going to be a top-10 pick. he catches everything and made some amazing plays. he is for real, you just never know where he ends up though and how that will effect his production his first few years. i still think if farve comes back he could be a packer which would be great for his #'s
was he muscled around in college at all?
 

Family Matters

Footballguy
I don't think he'll play hoops or FB
Have you seen him play? He's in your area isn't he? Can you share your observations. So far I've only seen some highlites. Of course he looks great but that doesn't tell the whole picture.
I've never seen him play live.I don't follow college ball.

"no one" lives in my area as I'm "in the sticks"
Sorry, I thought you were in that neck of the woods. :D
 

Rev

Footballguy
No one can doubt Davis' speed: Here's a quote from an SI.com article: During the pass-catching workout he was outrunning many of the passes tossed in his direction.

Link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/foot...wrap/index.html

Yet, I think there is reason to be concerned with his lateral mobility:

Three-cone drill

Garrett Mills Tulsa 6.81

Tony Scheffler W. Michigan 6.81

Owen Daniels W. Michigan 6.87

Anthony Fasano Notre Dame 6.94

Jeff King VA Tech 6.99

Vernon Davis Maryland 7.00

Short shuttle

Tony Scheffler W. Michigan 4.01

Garrett Mills Tulsa 4.05

Jeff King VA Tech 4.09

Owen Daniels Wisconsin 4.10

Vernon Davis Maryland 4.17

Davis finished dead last (among those who did these drills) in drills designed to measure your short burst and lateral quickness. Contrast that with another physical specimen in the draft, D-lineman Mark Anderson (Alabama), who's numbers were similar to Davis' in the strength and speed, yet he didn't finish any lower than 2nd in the above 2 drills.

So, either this tells me that A) Davis didn't prepare for the shuttle and cone drills, or B) he has some lateral mobility issues, despite his speed and power.

Thoughts?

 
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Imedos

Footballguy
Thoughts?
It would raise some flags if I hadn't seen some highlights of him playing. He runs his routes well, jukes people out, and stops and starts as well as any big man. It's not just his power and speed that is getting him the YAC, but the agility as well.The contrarian viewpoint is definitely welcome though. I like hearing all the negatives with the positives.

 

Rev

Footballguy
  Thoughts?
It would raise some flags if I hadn't seen some highlights of him playing. He runs his routes well, jukes people out, and stops and starts as well as any big man. It's not just his power and speed that is getting him the YAC, but the agility as well.The contrarian viewpoint is definitely welcome though. I like hearing all the negatives with the positives.
I appreciate the idea that Davis looked agile against college secondaries. But, my point is to ask whether or not Davis' agility is solid enough to excel at the NFL level. And to that end, Vernon Davis is less agile than every other rookie tight end that did the agility drills, which has me concerned. :unsure: How well will he get open and avoid tackles when he can't simply plow through or run by defenders.

 
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cstu

Footballguy
No one can doubt Davis' speed: Here's a quote from an SI.com article: During the pass-catching workout he was outrunning many of the passes tossed in his direction.

Link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/foot...wrap/index.html

Yet, I think there is reason to be concerned with his lateral mobility:

Three-cone drill

Garrett Mills Tulsa 6.81

Tony Scheffler W. Michigan 6.81

Owen Daniels W. Michigan 6.87

Anthony Fasano Notre Dame 6.94

Jeff King VA Tech 6.99

Vernon Davis Maryland 7.00

Short shuttle

Tony Scheffler W. Michigan 4.01

Garrett Mills Tulsa 4.05

Jeff King VA Tech 4.09

Owen Daniels Wisconsin 4.10

Vernon Davis Maryland 4.17

Davis finished dead last (among those who did these drills) in drills designed to measure your short burst and lateral quickness. Contrast that with another physical specimen in the draft, D-lineman Mark Anderson (Alabama), who's numbers were similar to Davis' in the strength and speed, yet he didn't finish any lower than 2nd in the above 2 drills.

So, either this tells me that A) Davis didn't prepare for the shuttle and cone drills, or B) he has some lateral mobility issues, despite his speed and power.

Thoughts?
He was actually 5th and 6th in those drills, not last. There were 18 TE's who did those and most of them did much worse than Davis. Scheffler and Mills put up great 3 cone and short shuttle numbers, but were not in the same neighborhood as Davis in the 40, 225 or vertical. http://www.fflivewire.com/combine/tecombine.asp

 

Aaron Rudnicki

Keep Walking™
Staff member
Three-cone drill

Garrett Mills Tulsa 6.81

Tony Scheffler W. Michigan 6.81

Owen Daniels W. Michigan 6.87

Anthony Fasano Notre Dame 6.94

Jeff King VA Tech 6.99

Vernon Davis Maryland 7.00

Short shuttle

Tony Scheffler W. Michigan 4.01

Garrett Mills Tulsa 4.05

Jeff King VA Tech 4.09

Owen Daniels Wisconsin 4.10

Vernon Davis Maryland 4.17
how really meaningful are these differences though? He was .19 seconds behind the overall leader in the 3-cone drill and .16 seconds behind the leader in the short shuttle. Do you think that's really going to make a huge difference? Given all of his other impressive measurables, I'm not sure these are that big of a deal. IMO, this guy has WR ability in a TE body.
 

Sigmund Bloom

Footballguy
Staff member
Thoughts?
It would raise some flags if I hadn't seen some highlights of him playing. He runs his routes well, jukes people out, and stops and starts as well as any big man. It's not just his power and speed that is getting him the YAC, but the agility as well.The contrarian viewpoint is definitely welcome though. I like hearing all the negatives with the positives.
I appreciate the idea that Davis looked agile against college secondaries. But, my point is to ask whether or not Davis' agility is solid enough to excel at the NFL level. And to that end, Vernon Davis is less agile than every other rookie tight end that did the agility drills, which has me concerned. :unsure: How well will he get open and avoid tackles when he can't simply plow through or run by defenders.
How will Vernon Davis get open?1) Vernon Davis is not just a 40 yard dash workout warrior. His 10 yard split was 1.51. That is an elite time at ANY position for ANY body type. It was among the five best 10 yard splits at the whole combine. He has a burst off the line that most WRs would envy.

2) Vernon Davis is strong like bull. If you try to jam him, you are going to take the worst of it. Don't even try to outphysical him in coverage. If a DB tries to bump him, Vernon is going to end up wide open.

3) Vernon Davis is explosive. Again, his combine numbers are off the charts for a guy his size, with a vertical and broad jump combo that was among the best at the entire combine, regardless of position. He will be able to outleap just about any defender and explode in short areas to get open.

So, his change of direction times are not elite. To me, this is like focusing on the fact that Reggie Bush is not 6'1" 230 lbs and completely overlooking all of the HUGE advantages he has in other areas.

The question is not "How will Vernon Davis get open?", the question is "How are teams going to cover Vernon Davis?"

 
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Bri

Footballguy
Sad fact is the possibility that he goes to a lesser team with a poor OL and needs to stay in and block.

 

Bri

Footballguy
I've heard this guy can't block worth a damn.
He'll definitely be surprised with the size and speed of NFL DEs. What rookie TE isn't? and think of all the "tweeners" that played DE inc ollege and now are likely to play LB.
 

Rev

Footballguy
So, his change of direction times are not elite. To me, this is like focusing on the fact that Reggie Bush is not 6'1" 230 lbs and completely overlooking all of the HUGE advantages he has in other areas.

The question is not "How will Vernon Davis get open?", the question is "How are teams going to cover Vernon Davis?"
You make some good points in your post, but this one is iffy to me. His change of direction times aren't just "not elite," they are quite average. No way can you overestimate the importance of change of direction the NFL. Speed can get you so far, but you must be able to make hard, fast cuts to get open and get yards after the catch.

You shouldn't downplay the value of lateral agility in the NFL. That's like telling an auctioneer that he doesn't need a tongue. :P

 

cstu

Footballguy
Three-cone drill

Garrett Mills Tulsa 6.81

Tony Scheffler W. Michigan 6.81

Owen Daniels W. Michigan 6.87

Anthony Fasano Notre Dame 6.94

Jeff King VA Tech 6.99

Vernon Davis Maryland 7.00

Short shuttle

Tony Scheffler W. Michigan 4.01

Garrett Mills Tulsa 4.05

Jeff King VA Tech 4.09

Owen Daniels Wisconsin 4.10

Vernon Davis Maryland 4.17
how really meaningful are these differences though? He was .19 seconds behind the overall leader in the 3-cone drill and .16 seconds behind the leader in the short shuttle. Do you think that's really going to make a huge difference? Given all of his other impressive measurables, I'm not sure these are that big of a deal. IMO, this guy has WR ability in a TE body.
Those numbers are misleading because there were 18 TE's that ran and those were the only 2 events where he wasn't 1st. Nothing disappointing about a 263lb. guy running 5th and 6th in those events.
 

Rev

Footballguy
Those numbers are misleading because there were 18 TE's that ran and those were the only 2 events where he wasn't 1st. Nothing disappointing about a 263lb. guy running 5th and 6th in those events.
That's helpful to note that there were many more TE's in the events. But I would say 2 things as a response to your post:

1. I would think that most if not all of the rookie TE's weigh in the neighborhood of 260, so Davis' weight doesn't make his times look any better.

2. While Davis' times aren't "dissapointing" as you point out, they are average as far as TE's go... meaning that Davis has average agility. I would bet that Gates would destroy the field in the agility drills.

 

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