Vince Young and Tim Tebow (1 Viewer)

[Buffaloes]

Many lambasted Houston for passing on Young #1 overall a few years back. Many (myself included when the pick was made) lambasted Denver for trading back into the 1st to take Tebow at #25 overall. So, what made Young a better prospect 4 years ago than Tebow today?

I see them as similar "projects" coming from high profile schools where they were decorated athletes who were known as "winners" at school. Some would argue Tebow had more success as a passer in college as well.

Some complaints about both heading into the NFL:

* Poor throwing motion

* Gimmicky spread option offenses

* Relatively low Wonderlic scores although Tebow's is much higher than Young's

* Athleticism won't dominate in NFL like in college

* A "project" in the pros

* Had enough surrounding talent to mask his deficiencies

So taking this into consideration, what made VY a better pro prospect and what precludes Tebow from replicating or eclipsing Young's success on the NFL stage?

 

[culdeus]

Many lambasted Houston for passing on Young #1 overall a few years back. Many (myself included when the pick was made) lambasted Denver for trading back into the 1st to take Tebow at #25 overall. So, what made Young a better prospect 4 years ago than Tebow today? I see them as similar "projects" coming from high profile schools where they were decorated athletes who were known as "winners" at school. Some would argue Tebow had more success as a passer in college as well. Some complaints about both heading into the NFL:* Poor throwing motion* Gimmicky spread option offenses* Relatively low Wonderlic scores although Tebow's is much higher than Young's* Athleticism won't dominate in NFL like in college* A "project" in the pros * Had enough surrounding talent to mask his deficienciesSo taking this into consideration, what made VY a better pro prospect and what precludes Tebow from replicating or eclipsing Young's success on the NFL stage?

The league got more pass happy with the rule sets in the years since VY got drafted. Thus devaluing players like Tebow. And Young's success on the NFL stage is still somewhat up in the air. That offense more than any other doesn't rely on the QB to make plays. This is VY's defining year for sure.

 

[TommyGilmore]

I think Vince Young has a better throwing motion than Tebow. Maybe Young doesn't have perfect form, but at least he releases the ball quickly.

 

[nlgb1]

better comparison = ken dorsey ---> tim tebow.

only difference is muscles and media sucking tebows nuts

 

[CaptainHook]

vince young is actually fast enough to make up for his arm deficiencies and he doesnt have the slowest release in the history of nfl prospects.

 

[sho nuff]

I think Vince Young has a better throwing motion than Tebow. Maybe Young doesn't have perfect form, but at least he releases the ball quickly.

And he was simply a better runner/more instinctive, faster/quicker.

 

[Buffaloes]

better comparison = ken dorsey ---> tim tebow.only difference is muscles and media sucking tebows nuts

Dorsey didn't sniff the Heisman or put up near the #s Tebow did. He wasn't a mobile QB and was a pure passer. This is a terrible comparison.

 

[CaptainHook]

Career highlights and awards

2x Archie Griffin Award (2001–2002)

2x NCAA QB of the Year (2001-2002)

2x Heisman Trophy finalist (2001–2002)

???

 

[nlgb1]

better comparison = ken dorsey ---> tim tebow.only difference is muscles and media sucking tebows nuts

Dorsey didn't sniff the Heisman or put up near the #s Tebow did. He wasn't a mobile QB and was a pure passer. This is a terrible comparison.

if by didnt sniff, you mean 2time heisman finalist, then yes. you are correct.

 

[Buffaloes]

better comparison = ken dorsey ---> tim tebow.only difference is muscles and media sucking tebows nuts

Dorsey didn't sniff the Heisman or put up near the #s Tebow did. He wasn't a mobile QB and was a pure passer. This is a terrible comparison.

if by didnt sniff, you mean 2time heisman finalist, then yes. you are correct.

Touche'. You were right and I forgot about that. My bad. I guess my point is I see Tebow more as a Vince Young type threat than a pocket passer. Dorsey's and Tebow's NCAA game were quite contrasting imo.

 

[CalBear]

better comparison = ken dorsey ---> tim tebow.only difference is muscles and media sucking tebows nuts

Dorsey didn't sniff the Heisman or put up near the #s Tebow did. He wasn't a mobile QB and was a pure passer. This is a terrible comparison.

if by didnt sniff, you mean 2time heisman finalist, then yes. you are correct.

You want to address the rest of the post? The only similarity they have as players is that they both played QB in the state of Florida.To address the original point, Young seemed like both a better passer and better runner than Tebow in terms of NFL skill set. Lots of "winners" in college didn't succeed in the NFL.

 

[Abraham]

better comparison = ken dorsey ---> tim tebow.only difference is muscles and media sucking tebows nuts

Dorsey didn't sniff the Heisman or put up near the #s Tebow did. He wasn't a mobile QB and was a pure passer. This is a terrible comparison.

if by didnt sniff, you mean 2time heisman finalist, then yes. you are correct.

Touche'. You were right and I forgot about that. My bad. I guess my point is I see Tebow more as a Vince Young type threat than a pocket passer. Dorsey's and Tebow's NCAA game were quite contrasting imo.

The more apt comparison for Tebow is David Garrard.

 

[nlgb1]

better comparison = ken dorsey ---> tim tebow.only difference is muscles and media sucking tebows nuts

Dorsey didn't sniff the Heisman or put up near the #s Tebow did. He wasn't a mobile QB and was a pure passer. This is a terrible comparison.

if by didnt sniff, you mean 2time heisman finalist, then yes. you are correct.

You want to address the rest of the post? The only similarity they have as players is that they both played QB in the state of Florida.To address the original point, Young seemed like both a better passer and better runner than Tebow in terms of NFL skill set. Lots of "winners" in college didn't succeed in the NFL.

they were both very efficient passers on unbelievable teams. dorsey stunk in the nfl, and tebow will do the same.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

better comparison = ken dorsey ---> tim tebow.

only difference is muscles and media sucking tebows nuts

Dorsey didn't sniff the Heisman or put up near the #s Tebow did. He wasn't a mobile QB and was a pure passer. This is a terrible comparison.

if by didnt sniff, you mean 2time heisman finalist, then yes. you are correct.

You want to address the rest of the post? The only similarity they have as players is that they both played QB in the state of Florida.To address the original point, Young seemed like both a better passer and better runner than Tebow in terms of NFL skill set. Lots of "winners" in college didn't succeed in the NFL.

This.Coming out, even with his low throwing motion, Young had a quicker release and stronger arm, was a better runner and stronger in the pocket. Tebow does have much better footwork than Young did, IMHO.

Young is also bigger (6'5" 233 to 6'3" 225)...and faster (4.58 to 4.71).

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I think Vince Young has a better throwing motion than Tebow. Maybe Young doesn't have perfect form, but at least he releases the ball quickly.

People are way underplaying what people were saying about Vince Young's throwing motion when he came out, soley because hindsight has proven them wrong. Young didn't just have an awkward throwing motion according to people back then, he had a throwing motion that "made the ball release where it would for a 5'8" QB" and would lead to "every pass he throws getting batted down at the line of scrimmage".If you went back to the year Young came out and asked who's throwing motion would give them more trouble in the pros it would probably be a 50/50 split at worst. People are sensationalizing the effects of Tebow's throwing motion now the same way they were with Young's back then. If Tebow's turns out not to be a factor then 3 years from now when someone else comes out with an awkward throwing motion everyone will act like Tebow's was no problem all along, just like they're doing now with Young.

To address the original point, Young seemed like both a better passer and better runner than Tebow in terms of NFL skill set. Lots of "winners" in college didn't succeed in the NFL.

One big difference between the two is that Vince Young was downright hideous as a passer until his last year. Tebow pretty much came out of the gate firing on all cylinders, but didn't show near the progression of Youn.Up to his Senior year, Vince Young made Terrelle Pryor look like Peyton Manning throwing the ball. Meanwhile Tebow spent his first year as a starter (as a true sophomore) setting the NCAA record for highest passer rating for a heisman winner ever.Like people are forgetting how badly sensationalized Young's throwing motion was when he came out (in much the same way Tebow's is now), people are also forgetting how awful Young was a passer up until his senior season when everything fell into place.

 

[finito]

Slower release: Leftwich, Kerry Collins or Tebow?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Just for once, why don't we allow someone to have a chance? What can you base anything on right now? We really have not had a guy exactly like Tim Tebow come to the NFL recently. We all know he is going to have an uphill climb but if anyone can learn the system or change the way he does things, in my mind Tim Tebow would be that guy. What does it take to get better mechanics? Reps, focus, listening skills...I think TT has those abilities.

The one thing I hear him say right after he was drafted like the good boy scout he is..."I'm going to do exactly what Coach McDaniels tells me to"...and that's why he was drafted. He won't lip back to the coach and McDaniels think he can mold and shape this guy. I thin the owner is on board with McDaniels for the long haul, at least 3-4 years to show what he can do. They already have made the surgical cuts sort of speak, now you gotta go with what you got for now.

Wait till we see Tebow in the preseason. He might not look as lost as we all perceive he will be right now. He might fall flat on his face, but it won't be due to lack of effort, dedication, or bar hopping at 2 AM when he should be studying what Oakland's new defense is going to do to him. I'm pulling for him, win or lose.

 

[massraider]

Slower release: Leftwich, Kerry Collins or Tebow?

Leftwich is all by himself in his category. he's the king.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Slower release: Leftwich, Kerry Collins or Tebow?

Leftwich. The ball nearly hits the back of his heel when he's throwing downfield. He does have the strongest arm of the three though.

 

[Buffaloes]

I thin the owner is on board with McDaniels for the long haul, at least 3-4 years to show what he can do. They already have made the surgical cuts sort of speak, now you gotta go with what you got for now.

As do I. I guffawed at the already tired notion that McDaniels won't be around long enough to see this experiment through. Bowlen and the Broncos went all in with Tebow and McDaniels this weekend. No way a coach with McDaniels's credentials re: QBs is given the opportunity to make this pick only to be put on a short leash after a disappointing season. This move will change the Broncos for better or worse for the foreseeable future.

 

[Mile High]

I thin the owner is on board with McDaniels for the long haul, at least 3-4 years to show what he can do. They already have made the surgical cuts sort of speak, now you gotta go with what you got for now.

As do I. I guffawed at the already tired notion that McDaniels won't be around long enough to see this experiment through. Bowlen and the Broncos went all in with Tebow and McDaniels this weekend. No way a coach with McDaniels's credentials re: QBs is given the opportunity to make this pick only to be put on a short leash after a disappointing season. This move will change the Broncos for better or worse for the foreseeable future.

It is what it is, now for Denver. Hoping McDainels is as smart as he thinks he is, otherwise it's going to be a long 5 years.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

I think Vince Young has a better throwing motion than Tebow. Maybe Young doesn't have perfect form, but at least he releases the ball quickly.

People are way underplaying what people were saying about Vince Young's throwing motion when he came out, soley because hindsight has proven them wrong. Young didn't just have an awkward throwing motion according to people back then, he had a throwing motion that "made the ball release where it would for a 5'8" QB" and would lead to "every pass he throws getting batted down at the line of scrimmage".If you went back to the year Young came out and asked who's throwing motion would give them more trouble in the pros it would probably be a 50/50 split at worst. People are sensationalizing the effects of Tebow's throwing motion now the same way they were with Young's back then. If Tebow's turns out not to be a factor then 3 years from now when someone else comes out with an awkward throwing motion everyone will act like Tebow's was no problem all along, just like they're doing now with Young.

To address the original point, Young seemed like both a better passer and better runner than Tebow in terms of NFL skill set. Lots of "winners" in college didn't succeed in the NFL.

One big difference between the two is that Vince Young was downright hideous as a passer until his last year. Tebow pretty much came out of the gate firing on all cylinders, but didn't show near the progression of Youn.Up to his Senior year, Vince Young made Terrelle Pryor look like Peyton Manning throwing the ball. Meanwhile Tebow spent his first year as a starter (as a true sophomore) setting the NCAA record for highest passer rating for a heisman winner ever.

Like people are forgetting how badly sensationalized Young's throwing motion was when he came out (in much the same way Tebow's is now), people are also forgetting how awful Young was a passer up until his senior season when everything fell into place.

I agree with some of what you say, however:- Young didn't play his senior season.

- Everything started to "fall into place" for Young midway through his redshirt sophomore season (his first season as a starter).

- Tebow did come out hot, however, he was recruited by a Spread Offense coach and practiced and played in it from day one. VY was not. Texas switched from the I-formation to the Spread 2+ years into Young's career at Texas.

- If people were saying VY should change his throwing motion because he would get balls batted, then all they needed to do was look at his history. He rarely got balls batted in college, and still hasn't in the pros, both with his old low release, and with his new, only slightly higher release. That's because he's good at throwing into open lanes in the line and because he has a quick release. Chris Simms is tall also and had a prototypical throwing motion coming out of Texas, releasing the ball much higher. He had balls batted at an alarming rate throughout his days here.

- If people were saying VY should change his throwing motion because it would help him make the throws he'd need to make, then they had a point.

 

[Yellow Line is Unoffcial]

The difference between Young and Tebow is about 50 IQ points

 

[FreeBaGeL]

- If people were saying VY should change his throwing motion because he would get balls batted, then all they needed to do was look at his history. He rarely got balls batted in college, and still hasn't in the pros

You're missing the entire point. Tebow didn't miss open receiver windows in college because of his throwing motion either, but people are projecting that's what will happen in the pros, the same way they project short QBs who didn't have a problem with balls getting batted down in college will in the pros, and the same way they were projecting would happen because of Young's throwing motion.As for your point that he hasn't gotten them batted down in the pros, that's the entire point that I was making. Did you even read it or are you just a Titan fan that saw Vince Young's name being mentioned and immediately jumped in to defend your guy for something he wasn't even being criticized for?

 

[ChargersOH]

Tebow played much tougher defenses than Young, threw the ball more, was physically much stronger, and was both an inside and outside runner.

Young was a better pure runner.

Young's motion was terrible in college. Nobody had issues with him being picked third because of what he accomplished in college. The point here is the media and scouts are hypocrits.

 

[GregR_2]

Just for once, why don't we allow someone to have a chance? What can you base anything on right now? We really have not had a guy exactly like Tim Tebow come to the NFL recently. We all know he is going to have an uphill climb but if anyone can learn the system or change the way he does things, in my mind Tim Tebow would be that guy. What does it take to get better mechanics? Reps, focus, listening skills...I think TT has those abilities.

The one thing I hear him say right after he was drafted like the good boy scout he is..."I'm going to do exactly what Coach McDaniels tells me to"...and that's why he was drafted. He won't lip back to the coach and McDaniels think he can mold and shape this guy. I thin the owner is on board with McDaniels for the long haul, at least 3-4 years to show what he can do. They already have made the surgical cuts sort of speak, now you gotta go with what you got for now.

Wait till we see Tebow in the preseason. He might not look as lost as we all perceive he will be right now. He might fall flat on his face, but it won't be due to lack of effort, dedication, or bar hopping at 2 AM when he should be studying what Oakland's new defense is going to do to him. I'm pulling for him, win or lose.

I agree it's something that you want to hear from any of your players.That said, I also found myself wondering what would happen if Tebow shows up for the first day of OTAs and McDaniels tells him that the coaching staff has decided they want him to play fullback and won't spend any time developing him as a QB.

It's pretty easy to do what coach says when coach's goal of making you a successful QB is the same as your goal. He seems like a great kid from all accounts, maybe he would completely devote himself to being a FB and give up aspirations on being a QB for the good of the team. But I don't know if that's a certainty either.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Just for once, why don't we allow someone to have a chance? What can you base anything on right now? We really have not had a guy exactly like Tim Tebow come to the NFL recently. We all know he is going to have an uphill climb but if anyone can learn the system or change the way he does things, in my mind Tim Tebow would be that guy. What does it take to get better mechanics? Reps, focus, listening skills...I think TT has those abilities.

The one thing I hear him say right after he was drafted like the good boy scout he is..."I'm going to do exactly what Coach McDaniels tells me to"...and that's why he was drafted. He won't lip back to the coach and McDaniels think he can mold and shape this guy. I thin the owner is on board with McDaniels for the long haul, at least 3-4 years to show what he can do. They already have made the surgical cuts sort of speak, now you gotta go with what you got for now.

Wait till we see Tebow in the preseason. He might not look as lost as we all perceive he will be right now. He might fall flat on his face, but it won't be due to lack of effort, dedication, or bar hopping at 2 AM when he should be studying what Oakland's new defense is going to do to him. I'm pulling for him, win or lose.

I agree it's something that you want to hear from any of your players.That said, I also found myself wondering what would happen if Tebow shows up for the first day of OTAs and McDaniels tells him that the coaching staff has decided they want him to play fullback and won't spend any time developing him as a QB.

It's pretty easy to do what coach says when coach's goal of making you a successful QB is the same as your goal. He seems like a great kid from all accounts, maybe he would completely devote himself to being a FB and give up aspirations on being a QB for the good of the team. But I don't know if that's a certainty either.

Greg, a couple things. First, JM already said that he will only be a QB. That couyld just be coach speak but I doubt he took him in the 1st to play FB. Second, Tebow can throw the football. He didn't throw for 1,500 and rush for like 1,500 his Senior year. I would have to check the stats but I think Tebow had 2,500+ passing over about 12 games which is over 200 a game. He isn't like a Turner Gill from the 80s that can't throw the football. He just wings it differently and they will try and work on it. Bernie Kosar idn't have the best delivery either.

Tebow is gonna get a gameplan designed for him. I expect them to allow him to tuck it and run whenever he wants. I think he can be like a Young, but not Vince Young, more like Steve Young. Don't forget that Young sat on the sidelines his 1st 7 or 8 years in the league. Tebow needs time but I think folks are going to be surprised.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

- If people were saying VY should change his throwing motion because he would get balls batted, then all they needed to do was look at his history. He rarely got balls batted in college, and still hasn't in the pros

You're missing the entire point. Tebow didn't miss open receiver windows in college because of his throwing motion either, but people are projecting that's what will happen in the pros, the same way they project short QBs who didn't have a problem with balls getting batted down in college will in the pros, and the same way they were projecting would happen because of Young's throwing motion....

As for your point that he hasn't gotten them batted down in the pros, that's the entire point that I was making.

Yeah. I got that from what you were saying. I agree. The point of the line you quoted was that while some people were worrying about VY's throwing motion leading to batted balls, many more were worried because of other reasons.

Did you even read it or are you just a Titan fan that saw Vince Young's name being mentioned and immediately jumped in to defend your guy for something he wasn't even being criticized for?

 

[Tau837]

- If people were saying VY should change his throwing motion because he would get balls batted, then all they needed to do was look at his history. He rarely got balls batted in college, and still hasn't in the pros

You're missing the entire point. Tebow didn't miss open receiver windows in college because of his throwing motion either, but people are projecting that's what will happen in the pros, the same way they project short QBs who didn't have a problem with balls getting batted down in college will in the pros, and the same way they were projecting would happen because of Young's throwing motion.As for your point that he hasn't gotten them batted down in the pros, that's the entire point that I was making. Did you even read it or are you just a Titan fan that saw Vince Young's name being mentioned and immediately jumped in to defend your guy for something he wasn't even being criticized for?

IMO the comparison you are making is largely apples and oranges. There have been a number of QBs who were successful in the NFL despite an unorthodox throwing motion, which was the primary issue with Young's motion (e.g., that he'd get balls batted down). I also think there may have been a concern that Young would be too likely to run rather than work through his progressions, along with a concern over his ability to read the defense well enough to work through his progressions... but those have nothing to do with throwing motion, so I digress.Philip Rivers is a good example of a QB who excels in the NFL despite an unorthodox throwing motion, and there are others. However, I'm not aware of any QB who has been particularly successful with an extremely slow throwing motion, at least not in the modern era. That is what I understand to be the primary concern with Tebow's (college) throwing motion.

Leftwich and Collins were mentioned above... I wouldn't consider Leftwich to be a successful NFL QB. I think it's reasonable to say Collins has been successful, since he was able to earn 170 starts in his career, but I don't think his motion is nearly as slow as Tebow's college throwing motion. Tebow's adjusted mechanics may be fine, as long as he doesn't revert to the original mechanics under pressure.

If so, the odds go up substantially, because the other issues - adjusting to the speed of the game, adjusting to lesser surrounding talent (relative to opponent), footwork and taking snaps under center, reading defenses, and fitting balls into tighter windows - are issues typically faced by all college QBs. I think Bradford faces all of those same issues, for example. Of course, a lot of QBs that have no substantive issues with throwing mechanics fail miserably due to these issues, so if his motion is sufficiently corrected, that just raises Tebow up to the normal risk level of a rookie QB.

As for the argument about how a QB performed in college, IMO it depends a lot on surrounding talent. Guys like Tebow and Young played behind good offensive lines and with superior talent at the surrounding skill positions, which kept the pressure on them in the pocket down to an extent. That is one reason why Tebow's slow motion wasn't as much of an issue in college but could be in the pros, where he will not enjoy that same advantage in surrounding talent. On the other hand, Rivers is an example of a guy who played with average talent in college, so it was more reasonable to think his ability to excel with his motion would carry over, which it did.

Perhaps you don't agree with this, since you seem to be arguing passionately that the two cases are the same.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Tebow played much tougher defenses than Young, threw the ball more, was physically much stronger, and was both an inside and outside runner.

Young was a better pure runner.

Young's motion was terrible in college. Nobody had issues with him being picked third because of what he accomplished in college. The point here is the media and scouts are hypocrits.

Wait.What?

Don't confuse Young/Greg Davis not calling his number all the time inside the 5 with him not being able to run the ball inside...and Tebow physically much stronger? All we kept hearing from opposing defenses was about how they couldn't get Young down even when they had him wrapped up in the pocket...and how he constantly ran through tackles. We saw it every game. You even see this today in the NFL, just to a lesser extent. The only QB with similar leg strength in the NFL right now is Big Ben.

 

[Tau837]

Just for once, why don't we allow someone to have a chance? What can you base anything on right now? We really have not had a guy exactly like Tim Tebow come to the NFL recently. We all know he is going to have an uphill climb but if anyone can learn the system or change the way he does things, in my mind Tim Tebow would be that guy. What does it take to get better mechanics? Reps, focus, listening skills...I think TT has those abilities.

The one thing I hear him say right after he was drafted like the good boy scout he is..."I'm going to do exactly what Coach McDaniels tells me to"...and that's why he was drafted. He won't lip back to the coach and McDaniels think he can mold and shape this guy. I thin the owner is on board with McDaniels for the long haul, at least 3-4 years to show what he can do. They already have made the surgical cuts sort of speak, now you gotta go with what you got for now.

Wait till we see Tebow in the preseason. He might not look as lost as we all perceive he will be right now. He might fall flat on his face, but it won't be due to lack of effort, dedication, or bar hopping at 2 AM when he should be studying what Oakland's new defense is going to do to him. I'm pulling for him, win or lose.

I agree it's something that you want to hear from any of your players.That said, I also found myself wondering what would happen if Tebow shows up for the first day of OTAs and McDaniels tells him that the coaching staff has decided they want him to play fullback and won't spend any time developing him as a QB.

It's pretty easy to do what coach says when coach's goal of making you a successful QB is the same as your goal. He seems like a great kid from all accounts, maybe he would completely devote himself to being a FB and give up aspirations on being a QB for the good of the team. But I don't know if that's a certainty either.

Greg, a couple things. First, JM already said that he will only be a QB. That couyld just be coach speak but I doubt he took him in the 1st to play FB. Second, Tebow can throw the football. He didn't throw for 1,500 and rush for like 1,500 his Senior year. I would have to check the stats but I think Tebow had 2,500+ passing over about 12 games which is over 200 a game. He isn't like a Turner Gill from the 80s that can't throw the football. He just wings it differently and they will try and work on it. Bernie Kosar idn't have the best delivery either.

Tebow is gonna get a gameplan designed for him. I expect them to allow him to tuck it and run whenever he wants. I think he can be like a Young, but not Vince Young, more like Steve Young. Don't forget that Young sat on the sidelines his 1st 7 or 8 years in the league. Tebow needs time but I think folks are going to be surprised.

Steve Young is a pretty poor example. First of all, he's one of the few best QBs of all time, so it's tough to compare any rookie to him... there really hasn't been another QB quite like him in the NFL to date IMO. There hasn't been a QB like Tebow either, but I don't see Tebow and Young as being particularly similar.Secondly, Young played his first two seasons out of college in the USFL, so he had pro experience when he entered the NFL. Then he started 19 games in his first 2 NFL seasons. He played poorly, got traded to the 49ers and then played a part-time role for 4 years behind Montana.

So Young really didn't sit for 7-8 years. He essentially played for most of his first 4 years in pro football, and wasn't very good. Then he got to sit behind Montana for 4 years and learn from him and Bill Walsh. I don't see McDaniels as the next Bill Walsh... though he probably sees himself that way.

 

[5-ish Finkle]

Am I the only one that wouldn't feel all that warm and fuzzy if a guy I just burnt a passel of picks to acquire was being compared to Vince Young?

That's not exactly effusive praise in my book.

 

[Buffaloes]

Am I the only one that wouldn't feel all that warm and fuzzy if a guy I just burnt a passel of picks to acquire was being compared to Vince Young?That's not exactly effusive praise in my book.

Creating this thread is part of the healing process

 

[Steelfan7]

I think Vince Young has a better throwing motion than Tebow. Maybe Young doesn't have perfect form, but at least he releases the ball quickly.

People are way underplaying what people were saying about Vince Young's throwing motion when he came out, soley because hindsight has proven them wrong. Young didn't just have an awkward throwing motion according to people back then, he had a throwing motion that "made the ball release where it would for a 5'8" QB" and would lead to "every pass he throws getting batted down at the line of scrimmage".If you went back to the year Young came out and asked who's throwing motion would give them more trouble in the pros it would probably be a 50/50 split at worst. People are sensationalizing the effects of Tebow's throwing motion now the same way they were with Young's back then. If Tebow's turns out not to be a factor then 3 years from now when someone else comes out with an awkward throwing motion everyone will act like Tebow's was no problem all along, just like they're doing now with Young.

To address the original point, Young seemed like both a better passer and better runner than Tebow in terms of NFL skill set. Lots of "winners" in college didn't succeed in the NFL.

One big difference between the two is that Vince Young was downright hideous as a passer until his last year. Tebow pretty much came out of the gate firing on all cylinders, but didn't show near the progression of Youn.Up to his Senior year, Vince Young made Terrelle Pryor look like Peyton Manning throwing the ball. Meanwhile Tebow spent his first year as a starter (as a true sophomore) setting the NCAA record for highest passer rating for a heisman winner ever.Like people are forgetting how badly sensationalized Young's throwing motion was when he came out (in much the same way Tebow's is now), people are also forgetting how awful Young was a passer up until his senior season when everything fell into place.

Your entire post has no credibilty. Young left after his Junior yr thus he didn't even play at Texas his Senior yr.

 

[phthalatemagic]

As for the argument about how a QB performed in college, IMO it depends a lot on surrounding talent. Guys like Tebow and Young played behind good offensive lines and with superior talent at the surrounding skill positions, which kept the pressure on them in the pocket down to an extent. That is one reason why Tebow's slow motion wasn't as much of an issue in college but could be in the pros, where he will not enjoy that same advantage in surrounding talent.

Don't you think it's a bit lazy to suggest just because Tebow had a good team around him, it made him look better than he is? At face value it might make sense, but you should observe what he did against particular teams. I think you could use that point, if you couple it with a major disparity between his games against NFL talent teams (like Alabama) and other lesser talented teams and compare that to what Young did with the same circumstances. I didn't look up several games, just the single most recent and notable ones for each player: Tebow had a 57% comp, 7.0 ypa, 1 TD, 1 INT in the 2009 SEC championship game against a stacked Alabama team. I think we all saw that game and wondered what crackhead made the gameplan for that game, but I'm not excusing his numbers. Vince Young in the greatest game of his life threw for 75% comp, 6.6 ypa, 0 TD/INT against an equally stacked USC team. Yeah, he ran for 200 yards, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Tebow can run the ball like Young. I don't think either game sticks out as much a much greater performance than another, so why give credit to surrounding talent? Maybe if someone has extra time, they can research Tebow's and Young's performance against NFL pipeline teams and compare those statistics to their performances against lesser ones. Until then, I don't think this point has much teeth.

 

[Matt Waldman]

As one of the "hypocrites" who hyped Young but not Tebow, I suggest you take a look at any two YouTube highlight packages of these players and really focus on how they released the football before claiming it's selective criticism towards Tebow because people have something against him.

In case you don't, here's a Cliff Note's version: Young threw the ball at a 3/4 motion but the ball remained high at all times in his normal throwing motion. Tebow's dropped to his thigh pad. A 3/4 motion isn't ideal, but it's more manageable than what Tebow had.

 

[Buffaloes]

As one of the "hypocrites" who hyped Young but not Tebow, I suggest you take a look at any two YouTube highlight packages of these players and really focus on how they released the football before claiming it's selective criticism towards Tebow because people have something against him.

In case you don't, here's a Cliff Note's version: Young threw the ball at a 3/4 motion but the ball remained high at all times in his normal throwing motion. Tebow's dropped to his thigh pad. A 3/4 motion isn't ideal, but it's more manageable than what Tebow had.

Is this something that is generally viewed as fixable at the pro level?

 

[Matt Waldman]

As for the argument about how a QB performed in college, IMO it depends a lot on surrounding talent. Guys like Tebow and Young played behind good offensive lines and with superior talent at the surrounding skill positions, which kept the pressure on them in the pocket down to an extent. That is one reason why Tebow's slow motion wasn't as much of an issue in college but could be in the pros, where he will not enjoy that same advantage in surrounding talent.

Don't you think it's a bit lazy to suggest just because Tebow had a good team around him, it made him look better than he is? At face value it might make sense, but you should observe what he did against particular teams. I think you could use that point, if you couple it with a major disparity between his games against NFL talent teams (like Alabama) and other lesser talented teams and compare that to what Young did with the same circumstances. I didn't look up several games, just the single most recent and notable ones for each player: Tebow had a 57% comp, 7.0 ypa, 1 TD, 1 INT in the 2009 SEC championship game against a stacked Alabama team. I think we all saw that game and wondered what crackhead made the gameplan for that game, but I'm not excusing his numbers. Vince Young in the greatest game of his life threw for 75% comp, 6.6 ypa, 0 TD/INT against an equally stacked USC team. Yeah, he ran for 200 yards, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Tebow can run the ball like Young. I don't think either game sticks out as much a much greater performance than another, so why give credit to surrounding talent? Maybe if someone has extra time, they can research Tebow's and Young's performance against NFL pipeline teams and compare those statistics to their performances against lesser ones. Until then, I don't think this point has much teeth.

I believe comparing game stats is a faulty way of doing it. It only reflects how well they executed their game plan. In essence you are taking a lazy way out as well, because observing what Tebow or Young did versus particular teams involves watching what skills they had to execute to be successful not look at a box score. If you watch the skills and see which players had to perform techniques that require a higher degree of difficulty to execute then you are on to something. Otherwise, the stats won't help as much as you think.

 

[phthalatemagic]

As for the argument about how a QB performed in college, IMO it depends a lot on surrounding talent. Guys like Tebow and Young played behind good offensive lines and with superior talent at the surrounding skill positions, which kept the pressure on them in the pocket down to an extent. That is one reason why Tebow's slow motion wasn't as much of an issue in college but could be in the pros, where he will not enjoy that same advantage in surrounding talent.

Don't you think it's a bit lazy to suggest just because Tebow had a good team around him, it made him look better than he is? At face value it might make sense, but you should observe what he did against particular teams. I think you could use that point, if you couple it with a major disparity between his games against NFL talent teams (like Alabama) and other lesser talented teams and compare that to what Young did with the same circumstances. I didn't look up several games, just the single most recent and notable ones for each player: Tebow had a 57% comp, 7.0 ypa, 1 TD, 1 INT in the 2009 SEC championship game against a stacked Alabama team. I think we all saw that game and wondered what crackhead made the gameplan for that game, but I'm not excusing his numbers. Vince Young in the greatest game of his life threw for 75% comp, 6.6 ypa, 0 TD/INT against an equally stacked USC team. Yeah, he ran for 200 yards, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Tebow can run the ball like Young. I don't think either game sticks out as much a much greater performance than another, so why give credit to surrounding talent? Maybe if someone has extra time, they can research Tebow's and Young's performance against NFL pipeline teams and compare those statistics to their performances against lesser ones. Until then, I don't think this point has much teeth.

I believe comparing game stats is a faulty way of doing it. It only reflects how well they executed their game plan. In essence you are taking a lazy way out as well, because observing what Tebow or Young did versus particular teams involves watching what skills they had to execute to be successful not look at a box score. If you watch the skills and see which players had to perform techniques that require a higher degree of difficulty to execute then you are on to something. Otherwise, the stats won't help as much as you think.

OK. I don't have the luxury of posting film reel links. I'm using basic statistics here because should I say "I saw Tim Tebow play and I thought he played better than Young did" gets nowhere. They both were pretty bad passers in college to my recollection. Do you remember both games I mentioned? Do you think Young was a better passer than Tebow in those games? or throughout their college careers?edit, and you never really addressed what I said, you just focused in my my stats and said they weren't worth using. Can you give me examples that knock what I said down? Or no?

 

[Matt Waldman]

As one of the "hypocrites" who hyped Young but not Tebow, I suggest you take a look at any two YouTube highlight packages of these players and really focus on how they released the football before claiming it's selective criticism towards Tebow because people have something against him.

In case you don't, here's a Cliff Note's version: Young threw the ball at a 3/4 motion but the ball remained high at all times in his normal throwing motion. Tebow's dropped to his thigh pad. A 3/4 motion isn't ideal, but it's more manageable than what Tebow had.

Is this something that is generally viewed as fixable at the pro level?

It's viewed as a difficult fix because most QBs have been using the same throwing motion for so long that it takes a lot of work to correct something so dramatically different. Teams often shy away from it, because they know that most football players aren't willing to put in the work to really fix it. To his credit, Tebow has shown the willingness to put int he work. What scares me and a lot of other people about projecting Tebow as a future starter is that he also has a lot of other things to correct or learn to make his transition - things that have been challenging for other good college QBs:-Learning to drop and throw from under center. Tebow didn't pass from under center very often if much at all. At least Bradford, LeFevour, and Robinson did 3-5 times per game.

-Gaining more accuracy on throws from acute angles. Tebow's accuracy is nice on seam routes, crosses, and sideline streaks that are no longer than 35 yards downfield. However, ask him to throw on the run or hit deep outs, passes from the opposite hash or throws that aren't generally from angles for 0 to 45 degrees and his accuracy suffers.

-Learn to climb the pocket. This can be learned. Vince Young made nice strides in 2009 and is a big difference in his game from before. Mike Vick is among many that have never learned it.

-Break the habit of patting the ball before he throws it. He should learn this pretty easily, but still an unconscious thing to fix.

-Learn to work the right side of the field, especially down field. Most sets at UF were designed to give him one-on-one to the left side. He'll be forced to make plays to his right in the NFL far more than he was at UF.

These are just a few things. Can Tebow do it? I hope so, but I wouldn't have had the guts to draft him in the first three rounds as an NFL coach. That's why McDaniels is getting the big bucks.

 

[GregR_2]

Just for once, why don't we allow someone to have a chance? What can you base anything on right now? We really have not had a guy exactly like Tim Tebow come to the NFL recently. We all know he is going to have an uphill climb but if anyone can learn the system or change the way he does things, in my mind Tim Tebow would be that guy. What does it take to get better mechanics? Reps, focus, listening skills...I think TT has those abilities.

The one thing I hear him say right after he was drafted like the good boy scout he is..."I'm going to do exactly what Coach McDaniels tells me to"...and that's why he was drafted. He won't lip back to the coach and McDaniels think he can mold and shape this guy. I thin the owner is on board with McDaniels for the long haul, at least 3-4 years to show what he can do. They already have made the surgical cuts sort of speak, now you gotta go with what you got for now.

Wait till we see Tebow in the preseason. He might not look as lost as we all perceive he will be right now. He might fall flat on his face, but it won't be due to lack of effort, dedication, or bar hopping at 2 AM when he should be studying what Oakland's new defense is going to do to him. I'm pulling for him, win or lose.

I agree it's something that you want to hear from any of your players.That said, I also found myself wondering what would happen if Tebow shows up for the first day of OTAs and McDaniels tells him that the coaching staff has decided they want him to play fullback and won't spend any time developing him as a QB.

It's pretty easy to do what coach says when coach's goal of making you a successful QB is the same as your goal. He seems like a great kid from all accounts, maybe he would completely devote himself to being a FB and give up aspirations on being a QB for the good of the team. But I don't know if that's a certainty either.

Greg, a couple things. First, JM already said that he will only be a QB. That couyld just be coach speak but I doubt he took him in the 1st to play FB. Second, Tebow can throw the football. He didn't throw for 1,500 and rush for like 1,500 his Senior year. I would have to check the stats but I think Tebow had 2,500+ passing over about 12 games which is over 200 a game. He isn't like a Turner Gill from the 80s that can't throw the football. He just wings it differently and they will try and work on it. Bernie Kosar idn't have the best delivery either.

Tebow is gonna get a gameplan designed for him. I expect them to allow him to tuck it and run whenever he wants. I think he can be like a Young, but not Vince Young, more like Steve Young. Don't forget that Young sat on the sidelines his 1st 7 or 8 years in the league. Tebow needs time but I think folks are going to be surprised.

I'm not seeing what any of that has to do with my post.In a nutshell my post said, "I wonder if Tebow is really willing to do anything the coaches say, or just that which he thinks gets him to his goal of being a QB.... and wouldn't it be interesting if they made him a FB so we'd find out."

I think you're misreading if you think I needed explaining that Denver doesn't plan to make him a fullback.

 

[vandyt]

As one of the "hypocrites" who hyped Young but not Tebow, I suggest you take a look at any two YouTube highlight packages of these players and really focus on how they released the football before claiming it's selective criticism towards Tebow because people have something against him. In case you don't, here's a Cliff Note's version: Young threw the ball at a 3/4 motion but the ball remained high at all times in his normal throwing motion. Tebow's dropped to his thigh pad. A 3/4 motion isn't ideal, but it's more manageable than what Tebow had.

Throwing motions don't get "fixed" by good coaching. It takes more than a training camp's worth of repetitions to undo 15 years of muscle memory, and even once you've made that change, theres no guarantee that it will result in better accuracy or arm strength.Just ask Byron Leftwich.

 

[Matt Waldman]

As for the argument about how a QB performed in college, IMO it depends a lot on surrounding talent. Guys like Tebow and Young played behind good offensive lines and with superior talent at the surrounding skill positions, which kept the pressure on them in the pocket down to an extent. That is one reason why Tebow's slow motion wasn't as much of an issue in college but could be in the pros, where he will not enjoy that same advantage in surrounding talent.

Don't you think it's a bit lazy to suggest just because Tebow had a good team around him, it made him look better than he is? At face value it might make sense, but you should observe what he did against particular teams. I think you could use that point, if you couple it with a major disparity between his games against NFL talent teams (like Alabama) and other lesser talented teams and compare that to what Young did with the same circumstances. I didn't look up several games, just the single most recent and notable ones for each player: Tebow had a 57% comp, 7.0 ypa, 1 TD, 1 INT in the 2009 SEC championship game against a stacked Alabama team. I think we all saw that game and wondered what crackhead made the gameplan for that game, but I'm not excusing his numbers. Vince Young in the greatest game of his life threw for 75% comp, 6.6 ypa, 0 TD/INT against an equally stacked USC team. Yeah, he ran for 200 yards, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Tebow can run the ball like Young. I don't think either game sticks out as much a much greater performance than another, so why give credit to surrounding talent? Maybe if someone has extra time, they can research Tebow's and Young's performance against NFL pipeline teams and compare those statistics to their performances against lesser ones. Until then, I don't think this point has much teeth.

I believe comparing game stats is a faulty way of doing it. It only reflects how well they executed their game plan. In essence you are taking a lazy way out as well, because observing what Tebow or Young did versus particular teams involves watching what skills they had to execute to be successful not look at a box score. If you watch the skills and see which players had to perform techniques that require a higher degree of difficulty to execute then you are on to something. Otherwise, the stats won't help as much as you think.

OK. I don't have the luxury of posting film reel links. I'm using basic statistics here because should I say "I saw Tim Tebow play and I thought he played better than Young did" gets nowhere. They both were pretty bad passers in college to my recollection. Do you remember both games I mentioned? Do you think Young was a better passer than Tebow in those games? or throughout their college careers?edit, and you never really addressed what I said, you just focused in my my stats and said they weren't worth using. Can you give me examples that knock what I said down? Or no?

I didn't address what you said about the games because despite watching both of them (in fact, I think they are still on my TIVO), it's been awhile for the USC-Texas game. I can say that UF's game plan wasn't significantly different. The difference was that Alabama could pressure UF up the middle and Tebow couldn't handle it. He had opportunities to throw the ball away, take the short dump off, or climb the pocket, but the first thing he did on a vast majority of times he was pressured up the middle was to turn his back to the defense and eliminate any options to throw the football. In fact, this one tendency also prevented him from getting yardage as a runner because he was trying to roll outside of the pocket by retreating from the LOS. In contrast, I do remember Young at least breaking the pocket and sliding through the LOS to get his yardage. I also have seen enough of Young as a collegian to know that he could at least complete passes while on the run with better accuracy than Tebow. While I can't give you a complete breakdown off the top of my head, I can look back and compare. Might be a nice idea for a segment in an article...thanks.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

As for the argument about how a QB performed in college, IMO it depends a lot on surrounding talent. Guys like Tebow and Young played behind good offensive lines and with superior talent at the surrounding skill positions, which kept the pressure on them in the pocket down to an extent. That is one reason why Tebow's slow motion wasn't as much of an issue in college but could be in the pros, where he will not enjoy that same advantage in surrounding talent.

Don't you think it's a bit lazy to suggest just because Tebow had a good team around him, it made him look better than he is? At face value it might make sense, but you should observe what he did against particular teams. I think you could use that point, if you couple it with a major disparity between his games against NFL talent teams (like Alabama) and other lesser talented teams and compare that to what Young did with the same circumstances. I didn't look up several games, just the single most recent and notable ones for each player: Tebow had a 57% comp, 7.0 ypa, 1 TD, 1 INT in the 2009 SEC championship game against a stacked Alabama team. I think we all saw that game and wondered what crackhead made the gameplan for that game, but I'm not excusing his numbers. Vince Young in the greatest game of his life threw for 75% comp, 6.6 ypa, 0 TD/INT against an equally stacked USC team. Yeah, he ran for 200 yards, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Tebow can run the ball like Young. I don't think either game sticks out as much a much greater performance than another, so why give credit to surrounding talent? Maybe if someone has extra time, they can research Tebow's and Young's performance against NFL pipeline teams and compare those statistics to their performances against lesser ones. Until then, I don't think this point has much teeth.

I believe comparing game stats is a faulty way of doing it. It only reflects how well they executed their game plan. In essence you are taking a lazy way out as well, because observing what Tebow or Young did versus particular teams involves watching what skills they had to execute to be successful not look at a box score. If you watch the skills and see which players had to perform techniques that require a higher degree of difficulty to execute then you are on to something. Otherwise, the stats won't help as much as you think.

OK. I don't have the luxury of posting film reel links. I'm using basic statistics here because should I say "I saw Tim Tebow play and I thought he played better than Young did" gets nowhere. They both were pretty bad passers in college to my recollection. Do you remember both games I mentioned? Do you think Young was a better passer than Tebow in those games? or throughout their college careers?edit, and you never really addressed what I said, you just focused in my my stats and said they weren't worth using. Can you give me examples that knock what I said down? Or no?

Young's 2005 (final) season stats:

Totals 325att 212comp 65.2% 3036yd 9.3yd/att 26td 10 int 163.95rat

Tebow's 2009 (final) season stats:

Totals 314att 213comp 67.8% 2895yd 9.2yd/att 21td 5int 164.17rat

Admittedly, these are just stats, but it's hard for me to imagine a "pretty bad" passer putting up #s like these in any system, surrounded by whatever weapons. Obviously there were better passers than these guys in both of their classes, esp in the eyes of NFL scouts looking to plug them into NFL systems, but some of the passing criticism these guys have received over some scouting reports that have leaked out seems like hyperbole to me.

 

[phthalatemagic]

As for the argument about how a QB performed in college, IMO it depends a lot on surrounding talent. Guys like Tebow and Young played behind good offensive lines and with superior talent at the surrounding skill positions, which kept the pressure on them in the pocket down to an extent. That is one reason why Tebow's slow motion wasn't as much of an issue in college but could be in the pros, where he will not enjoy that same advantage in surrounding talent.

Don't you think it's a bit lazy to suggest just because Tebow had a good team around him, it made him look better than he is? At face value it might make sense, but you should observe what he did against particular teams. I think you could use that point, if you couple it with a major disparity between his games against NFL talent teams (like Alabama) and other lesser talented teams and compare that to what Young did with the same circumstances. I didn't look up several games, just the single most recent and notable ones for each player: Tebow had a 57% comp, 7.0 ypa, 1 TD, 1 INT in the 2009 SEC championship game against a stacked Alabama team. I think we all saw that game and wondered what crackhead made the gameplan for that game, but I'm not excusing his numbers. Vince Young in the greatest game of his life threw for 75% comp, 6.6 ypa, 0 TD/INT against an equally stacked USC team. Yeah, he ran for 200 yards, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Tebow can run the ball like Young. I don't think either game sticks out as much a much greater performance than another, so why give credit to surrounding talent? Maybe if someone has extra time, they can research Tebow's and Young's performance against NFL pipeline teams and compare those statistics to their performances against lesser ones. Until then, I don't think this point has much teeth.

I believe comparing game stats is a faulty way of doing it. It only reflects how well they executed their game plan. In essence you are taking a lazy way out as well, because observing what Tebow or Young did versus particular teams involves watching what skills they had to execute to be successful not look at a box score. If you watch the skills and see which players had to perform techniques that require a higher degree of difficulty to execute then you are on to something. Otherwise, the stats won't help as much as you think.

OK. I don't have the luxury of posting film reel links. I'm using basic statistics here because should I say "I saw Tim Tebow play and I thought he played better than Young did" gets nowhere. They both were pretty bad passers in college to my recollection. Do you remember both games I mentioned? Do you think Young was a better passer than Tebow in those games? or throughout their college careers?edit, and you never really addressed what I said, you just focused in my my stats and said they weren't worth using. Can you give me examples that knock what I said down? Or no?

I didn't address what you said about the games because despite watching both of them (in fact, I think they are still on my TIVO), it's been awhile for the USC-Texas game. I can say that UF's game plan wasn't significantly different. The difference was that Alabama could pressure UF up the middle and Tebow couldn't handle it. He had opportunities to throw the ball away, take the short dump off, or climb the pocket, but the first thing he did on a vast majority of times he was pressured up the middle was to turn his back to the defense and eliminate any options to throw the football. In fact, this one tendency also prevented him from getting yardage as a runner because he was trying to roll outside of the pocket by retreating from the LOS. In contrast, I do remember Young at least breaking the pocket and sliding through the LOS to get his yardage. I also have seen enough of Young as a collegian to know that he could at least complete passes while on the run with better accuracy than Tebow. While I can't give you a complete breakdown off the top of my head, I can look back and compare. Might be a nice idea for a segment in an article...thanks.

OK, so break away from the hyperfocusing, it's OK in your eyes to say "Since Player A was on a good team, Player A's performance is always inflated". Correct?

 

[the hairy scotsman]

As for the argument about how a QB performed in college, IMO it depends a lot on surrounding talent. Guys like Tebow and Young played behind good offensive lines and with superior talent at the surrounding skill positions, which kept the pressure on them in the pocket down to an extent. That is one reason why Tebow's slow motion wasn't as much of an issue in college but could be in the pros, where he will not enjoy that same advantage in surrounding talent.

Don't you think it's a bit lazy to suggest just because Tebow had a good team around him, it made him look better than he is? At face value it might make sense, but you should observe what he did against particular teams. I think you could use that point, if you couple it with a major disparity between his games against NFL talent teams (like Alabama) and other lesser talented teams and compare that to what Young did with the same circumstances. I didn't look up several games, just the single most recent and notable ones for each player: Tebow had a 57% comp, 7.0 ypa, 1 TD, 1 INT in the 2009 SEC championship game against a stacked Alabama team. I think we all saw that game and wondered what crackhead made the gameplan for that game, but I'm not excusing his numbers. Vince Young in the greatest game of his life threw for 75% comp, 6.6 ypa, 0 TD/INT against an equally stacked USC team. Yeah, he ran for 200 yards, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Tebow can run the ball like Young. I don't think either game sticks out as much a much greater performance than another, so why give credit to surrounding talent? Maybe if someone has extra time, they can research Tebow's and Young's performance against NFL pipeline teams and compare those statistics to their performances against lesser ones. Until then, I don't think this point has much teeth.

I believe comparing game stats is a faulty way of doing it. It only reflects how well they executed their game plan. In essence you are taking a lazy way out as well, because observing what Tebow or Young did versus particular teams involves watching what skills they had to execute to be successful not look at a box score. If you watch the skills and see which players had to perform techniques that require a higher degree of difficulty to execute then you are on to something. Otherwise, the stats won't help as much as you think.

OK. I don't have the luxury of posting film reel links. I'm using basic statistics here because should I say "I saw Tim Tebow play and I thought he played better than Young did" gets nowhere. They both were pretty bad passers in college to my recollection. Do you remember both games I mentioned? Do you think Young was a better passer than Tebow in those games? or throughout their college careers?edit, and you never really addressed what I said, you just focused in my my stats and said they weren't worth using. Can you give me examples that knock what I said down? Or no?

I didn't address what you said about the games because despite watching both of them (in fact, I think they are still on my TIVO), it's been awhile for the USC-Texas game. I can say that UF's game plan wasn't significantly different. The difference was that Alabama could pressure UF up the middle and Tebow couldn't handle it. He had opportunities to throw the ball away, take the short dump off, or climb the pocket, but the first thing he did on a vast majority of times he was pressured up the middle was to turn his back to the defense and eliminate any options to throw the football. In fact, this one tendency also prevented him from getting yardage as a runner because he was trying to roll outside of the pocket by retreating from the LOS. In contrast, I do remember Young at least breaking the pocket and sliding through the LOS to get his yardage. I also have seen enough of Young as a collegian to know that he could at least complete passes while on the run with better accuracy than Tebow. While I can't give you a complete breakdown off the top of my head, I can look back and compare. Might be a nice idea for a segment in an article...thanks.

Throwing on the run is a great strength of Young's I couldn't compare to Tebow's as I don't know enough about Tebow's ability in the regard.

 

[phthalatemagic]

It's hard for me to imagine a "pretty bad" passer putting up #s like these in any system, surrounded by whatever weapons. Obviously there were better passers than these guys in both of their classes, esp in the eyes of NFL scouts looking to plug them into NFL systems, but some of the passing criticism these guys have received over some scouting reports that have leaked out seems like hyperbole to me.

OK, you are right. I guess I meant bad in the context of future NFL QB. But I guess my poor examples have back to bite me.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

It's hard for me to imagine a "pretty bad" passer putting up #s like these in any system, surrounded by whatever weapons. Obviously there were better passers than these guys in both of their classes, esp in the eyes of NFL scouts looking to plug them into NFL systems, but some of the passing criticism these guys have received over some scouting reports that have leaked out seems like hyperbole to me.

OK, you are right. I guess I meant bad in the context of future NFL QB. But I guess my poor examples have back to bite me.

Meh...join the club...

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Just for once, why don't we allow someone to have a chance? What can you base anything on right now? We really have not had a guy exactly like Tim Tebow come to the NFL recently. We all know he is going to have an uphill climb but if anyone can learn the system or change the way he does things, in my mind Tim Tebow would be that guy.

Sounds like a Miley Cirus song....Seriously the OP sounds like he is arguing with anyone to please talk him off the ledge. Good luck OP.

 

[Matt Waldman]

OK, so break away from the hyperfocusing, it's OK in your eyes to say "Since Player A was on a good team, Player A's performance is always inflated". Correct?

I think you and I will not agree on this topic, because what you view as "hyper-focusing" is what I view as "observant." From my viewpoint your question is asking me to abandon a sensible way of looking at two players to give an answer to a really faulty question to prove some sort of point. Sorry, not trying to attack you - just don't agree with the premise. I believe that you have to focus on deeper things than stats because you will find that players can be great on good or bad teams.