Buffaloes
Footballguy
I'm not trying to argue with anyone but I am looking for some optimism regarding this move....I feel like a Raider fan today.
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Vince Young and Tim Tebow (1 Viewer)
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Matt Waldman
Footballguy
I think Tebow is a genuine guy who works hard, has a real passion for the game, and is tough. I want to see him succeed and I think he has a chance to be the exception to the rule. But that's about as far as I can go.I'm not trying to argue with anyone but I am looking for some optimism regarding this move....I feel like a Raider fan today.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I don't think we're that far off here. I am in no way saying that the two issues are the same. What I'm finding fault with is people shrugging off Young's low release issues as if they were just a little footnote back when Young came out, but then referring to Tebow's long windup as the end of the world. That's revisionist history. People are shrugging off Young's low release issue because it didn't TURN OUT to be a big deal, but back then it was a big deal.Remember, the OP started this post to compare Young as a prospect to Tebow as a prospect. And while Young's throwing motion as a prospect was a different issue than Tebow's throwing motion as a prospect (and admittedly, much less of a problem), people are downplaying how big of an issue they thought Young's low release was back then.IMO the comparison you are making is largely apples and oranges. There have been a number of QBs who were successful in the NFL despite an unorthodox throwing motion, which was the primary issue with Young's motion (e.g., that he'd get balls batted down). Philip Rivers is a good example of a QB who excels in the NFL despite an unorthodox throwing motion, and there are others. However, I'm not aware of any QB who has been particularly successful with an extremely slow throwing motion, at least not in the modern era. That is what I understand to be the primary concern with Tebow's (college) throwing motion......(snip)......Perhaps you don't agree with this, since you seem to be arguing passionately that the two cases are the same.
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SSOG
Moderator
Tim Tebow is freak-of-nature strong. See this post for details. If you're still not convinced, go watch some of his highlight reels on Youtube. You mention that Vince Young ran THROUGH tackles, but how often did he lower his shoulder and just run over people like at the 2:42 mark? How often did Young initiate contact? How often did Vince Young just bulldoze against a defense littered with NFL-caliber players like Tebow does at the 3:00 mark? How often did Young push the pile like at 4:55? Vince Young might be strong, but Tim Tebow is stronger than NFL-caliber offensive linemen. Vince Young is nowhere near Tebow's class. Tim Tebow is probably the strongest QB to ever play football in the history of the NFL. If Vince Young is the QB equivalent of LaDanian Tomlinson, then Tebow is Earl Campbell.
SSOG... eventually you can only say so much... lift the anchors and set sail.... people dont understand why tebow will succeed so they expect him to fail.. the kid is amazing, dominated the best conference in football, won 2 national championships, had an amazing QB rating his senior season, and wont give up.. at any costs. i think hes a project that needs time to develop.. but once hes busted loose anyone that wants to acquire him in fantasy football can forget about it.. lol
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
I tried to boil it down the the simplest form in my last post, but it's cool. I never take offense to stuff
Tau837
Footballguy
And what were the college statistics of guys like Chris Weinke, Shane Matthews, Gino Torretta, Ken Dorsey, Steve Walsh, Danny Wuerffel, Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf, Heath Shuler, David Carr, etc.? Were those guys "pretty bad" passers by NFL standards? I think arguably they were. Bottom line is that college statistics don't tell the full story.
Tau837
Footballguy
OK, we agree that Young's release was much less of a problem than Tebow's windup. I think people's concerns with Young had more to with other issues besides his release, so I suppose that's where we disagree. I remember people being concerned with his intelligence given his poor Wonderlic score, and by extension being concerned about whether or not he could effectively read defenses. And I remember as a related issue that they were concerned about whether or not he was too inclined to just tuck and run rather than trying to work through his progressions in the pocket.So, yes, people may gloss over the concerns that were cited over Young at the time, but I disagree that they were primarily mechanics-oriented. Which is why I disagree with your point... IMO it's apples and oranges.I don't think we're that far off here. I am in no way saying that the two issues are the same. What I'm finding fault with is people shrugging off Young's low release issues as if they were just a little footnote back when Young came out, but then referring to Tebow's long windup as the end of the world. That's revisionist history. People are shrugging off Young's low release issue because it didn't TURN OUT to be a big deal, but back then it was a big deal.Remember, the OP started this post to compare Young as a prospect to Tebow as a prospect. And while Young's throwing motion as a prospect was a different issue than Tebow's throwing motion as a prospect (and admittedly, much less of a problem), people are downplaying how big of an issue they thought Young's low release was back then.IMO the comparison you are making is largely apples and oranges. There have been a number of QBs who were successful in the NFL despite an unorthodox throwing motion, which was the primary issue with Young's motion (e.g., that he'd get balls batted down). Philip Rivers is a good example of a QB who excels in the NFL despite an unorthodox throwing motion, and there are others. However, I'm not aware of any QB who has been particularly successful with an extremely slow throwing motion, at least not in the modern era. That is what I understand to be the primary concern with Tebow's (college) throwing motion......(snip)......Perhaps you don't agree with this, since you seem to be arguing passionately that the two cases are the same.
WisWolvrns
Footballguy
his reminds me of Jim Kelly
I remember back in the early 90's how Kelly would take on linebackers too and was a fiery competitor...
I remember back in the early 90's how Kelly would take on linebackers too and was a fiery competitor...
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
OK. That's easy to say now, but I and others went on record on this board at the time saying (a) it wasn't that big of an issue since he had a quick release, good arm strength, and good accuracy already, and he wasn't getting balls batted, (b) he still needed to work on it in the long term to maximize his arm strength and avoid elbow and shoulder problems down the road, and ( c) his footwork (drops when working from under center, etc) was a much bigger issue which needed to be addressed in the short term.I don't think we're that far off here. I am in no way saying that the two issues are the same. What I'm finding fault with is people shrugging off Young's low release issues as if they were just a little footnote back when Young came out, but then referring to Tebow's long windup as the end of the world. That's revisionist history. People are shrugging off Young's low release issue because it didn't TURN OUT to be a big deal, but back then it was a big deal.Remember, the OP started this post to compare Young as a prospect to Tebow as a prospect. And while Young's throwing motion as a prospect was a different issue than Tebow's throwing motion as a prospect (and admittedly, much less of a problem), people are downplaying how big of an issue they thought Young's low release was back then.IMO the comparison you are making is largely apples and oranges. There have been a number of QBs who were successful in the NFL despite an unorthodox throwing motion, which was the primary issue with Young's motion (e.g., that he'd get balls batted down).
Philip Rivers is a good example of a QB who excels in the NFL despite an unorthodox throwing motion, and there are others. However, I'm not aware of any QB who has been particularly successful with an extremely slow throwing motion, at least not in the modern era. That is what I understand to be the primary concern with Tebow's (college) throwing motion.
.....(snip)......
Perhaps you don't agree with this, since you seem to be arguing passionately that the two cases are the same.
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the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
So running through tackles requires less strength than taking on tacklers high in the open field? Nobody said Tebow wasn't very strong, but it seems to me like we're just talking about two different kinds of strength here...awesome leg strength for standing in the pocket with d-linemen hanging on your legs or sliding off of you while you still complete passes or for running through leg and ankle tackles in the pocket or in the open field ... vs combined upper/lower body strength for taking on the pile or initiating contact (which I promise NFL coaches will be discouraging him from doing, just the way they have with VY. Now he just gets his yards and gets ob or slides). That upper body strength is great, but it won't help much when those big NFL d-linemen crash the pocket high. Young or Tebow or anyone else is going down in that situation.
It's funny you mention Tebow as the earl Campbell of QBs. VY only played at Texas three years, starting only for two. Still, had he stayed for his senior year, he had a very real shot of moving past Earl Campbell's mark of 4443 yards on the school rushing list. He's 6th on the list. Everyone ahead of him is a RB.
re: the video, 4:55 was cool and impressive. 2:42 was very nice and 3:00 was nice, but frankly neither of those were anything I haven't seen Young do before...albeit probably not as often as Tebow because Texas went to it's rbs and the pass more in the red zone, and because defenders were much less likely to be near him in the open field. At any rate, saying they aren't in the same class in terms of strength doesn't really compute, esp when NFL d-linemen marvel after games about Young's strength in the pocket and how hard he is to bring down, even when just standing there.
Start watching at 4:34.
IMHO, Young had a better arm, quicker release, was a better overall runner, was bigger & faster, & was stronger in the pocket than Tebow coming out. Like Tebow, two major hurdles he had to overcome were footwork and dropping/reading from under center. Tebow seems to have remedied much of his footwork issues. The thing here is that Young (while not great by NFL stds) was a better passing threat and possessed an ever-present rushing threat to keep defenses honest and to fall back on while he made the transition. Some people said Young wouldn't be able to run consistently & effectively in the NFL, but he has. I could be guilty of making the same mistake about Tebow, but I just don't see his considerable running talents translating the same way in terms of defenses having to respect his running threat as much. Or maybe they'll just have to respect him in a different way, but it seems he'll be a little easier to contain running the ball. IMHO, he won't be intentionally forced to stay in the pocket and throw the ball as much as Young was in his second year in the NFL. Of course, it looks like he'll be a project and will have the luxury of much more time than VY was given to learn how to do that before he really has to prove himself, so only time will tell.
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borna'horn
Footballguy
The most overlooked game of VY's career was 2005 Ohio State. That was Jim Tressel's best defense, played in the Shoe at night. Early on VY had his way with his legs, but the tOSU defense adjusted. They forced him to beat them with the pass, and he did, throwing for 270 yards and a perfectly lofted winning TD pass to Limas Sweed in the corner of the end zone. Not only could VY throw, but he neutralizes the rush with his legs to buy his receivers time. Whereas Tebow could be corraled by a fast defense, VY was unstoppable. That tOSU game is where he really proved his greatness.
People also forget that VY made both Michigan and USC look silly in the Rose Bowls. I saw Tebow lead his team to gutty victories, but I never saw him embarrass future NFL players the way VY did. Sorry, but Tebow vs. Cincinnati's defense does not impress me.
Had VY returned in 2006, there would be no question as to who was the better QB in college. As it stands I still say 30-2 is better than 35-6. But there is no doubt Tebow was more hyped during his career than VY ever was. Funny how despite the hype differential VY was able to come out early and get picked 3rd - with many questioning whether he should have been picked first after he beat the Texans in overtime his rookie year - while Tebow was never seriously talked about by anyone as a Top 10 pick. Obviously people do not see Tebow to be as intimidating a threat as VY.
And to that poster claiming VY lacked leadership intangibles similar to Tebow's, you have got to be kidding!!! He willed Texas to its first national championship in 35 years! Everyone wrote all year long about the "Vince Vibe." The guy brought confidence to the whole team with his presence alone. You had the feeling he could never lose, and in his final 20 starts he never did. I'd say that beats Tebow crying vs. Bama.
People also forget that VY made both Michigan and USC look silly in the Rose Bowls. I saw Tebow lead his team to gutty victories, but I never saw him embarrass future NFL players the way VY did. Sorry, but Tebow vs. Cincinnati's defense does not impress me.
Had VY returned in 2006, there would be no question as to who was the better QB in college. As it stands I still say 30-2 is better than 35-6. But there is no doubt Tebow was more hyped during his career than VY ever was. Funny how despite the hype differential VY was able to come out early and get picked 3rd - with many questioning whether he should have been picked first after he beat the Texans in overtime his rookie year - while Tebow was never seriously talked about by anyone as a Top 10 pick. Obviously people do not see Tebow to be as intimidating a threat as VY.
And to that poster claiming VY lacked leadership intangibles similar to Tebow's, you have got to be kidding!!! He willed Texas to its first national championship in 35 years! Everyone wrote all year long about the "Vince Vibe." The guy brought confidence to the whole team with his presence alone. You had the feeling he could never lose, and in his final 20 starts he never did. I'd say that beats Tebow crying vs. Bama.
SSOG
Moderator
Spoken like someone who didn't see the 2008 SEC Championship Game. Or any game in the 2007 season. Or, really, the game against Cincinnati (I don't care WHO you're playing, 31 of 35 is incredibly impressive, especially because 2 of the incompletions were drops on perfectly thrown passes).I get it. Vince Young played some great games. His game against USC was probably the greatest individual effort in college football history. But to say that Tebow never embarrassed future NFLers... that's just ludicrous. Tim Tebow played in the SEC- the best defensive conference in the nation, and a whole lot tougher than the Big 12 (at least defensively). The SEC has led the nation in number of players drafted in each of Tebow's 4 years in college. This year, they had FIFTEEN MORE PLAYERS taken then the second place conference (49 for the SEC, 34 for the Big 10). Despite playing against far more "future NFLers" than Vince Young, Tim Tebow has practically owned the record books. Tim Tebow set SEC records for total TDs in a season, total TDs in a career, rushing TDs in a season, rushing TDs in a career, total offense in a season, total offense in a career, total TDs in a game, passer rating for a career, and TD:INT ratio for a career. He had the second best comp% in SEC history, the best INT%, and finished 3rd in passing TDs to Wuerffel and Peyton (just 1 behind Peyton, who was a 4 year starter, actually). He also set dozens more Florida records, including the record for most passing yards in a game- and remember, this is the college that gave us Spurrier, Matthews, Wuerffel, Grossman, Leak, the "Fun 'n Gun", and "hanging half a hundred". He finished his career 1 TD shy of the NCAA record for total touchdowns produced. He's the second QB in SEC history to lead his team in passing and rushing for 3 straight years, and he's the second QB in SEC history to lead the league in passing for 3 straight years. You say that Tebow led his team to "gutty wins"... but Tebow is the only QB in SEC history to win six straight league games by 4+ TDs- that hardly sounds like "gutty wins". You praise Young's throwing (and, by implication, disparage Tebow's), but Tebow is the second highest rated passer in NCAA history, behind only Sam Bradford. I get it, you're a Longhorn fan. You saw a lot of Vince Young and you think he's not getting his due. The way to get him his due, however, isn't to try to marginalize Tebow's accomplishments. As I said, Young was a great player and he played perhaps the greatest game in college football history. There's a reason why Tim Tebow was named college football player of the decade over Young, though. While there might be a lot of criticisms of Tebow at the next level, there aren't any legit criticisms of him at the last level. He has definitely earned the title of one of the greatest players in the history of college football, setting too many records (both passing and rushing) to name them all here. Tebow couldn't be "corralled" by anyone over his 4 year college career, and if you honestly believe otherwise, then you probably watched too many UT games and not enough UF games.
Vince Young was regarded more highly than Tebow because he had a lot of production in college, and nobody was allowed to say they thought he was lacking in intelligence because he is black and they would be labeled as a racist. Young basically got a pass on a lot of his flaws because of his color, while everybody can rip into Tebow as viciously as they want because he is white and nobody will ever call you a racist for denigrating him.
I think that they are really close as prospects personally, with Young having a bit more speed and pure running ability and Tebow having a bit more mental aptitude. Obviously we need to see Tebow in game action but Young has certainly dis-proven his detractors and shown that he is capable of being a winning QB in the league. I hope that Tebow can do the same down the line.
I think that they are really close as prospects personally, with Young having a bit more speed and pure running ability and Tebow having a bit more mental aptitude. Obviously we need to see Tebow in game action but Young has certainly dis-proven his detractors and shown that he is capable of being a winning QB in the league. I hope that Tebow can do the same down the line.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Look, obviously both of these guys did great things in college, but they did them differently, regardless of what the casual observer will say. These differences are why we're here, right?
Young played for three years, Tebow for four. They both broke plenty of records and had plenty of firsts. Young was the first person in NCAA history to rush for 1000 yards and pass for 3000 yards in the same season. Tebow was the first person in NCAA history to score 20 rushing TDs and throw 20 TD passes in the same season.
Both scored lots of rushing TDs and at about the same rate. Tebow scored once every 12.14 carries. VY once every 12.35. However, they were very different runners. Tebow was essentially Florida's goal line back from the day he stepped on campus. In 4 years, he scored 41 of his 57 career TDs from inside the 5 yard line. He had 15 more from 6 to 25 yards out, and 1 from 55. In 3 years, VY scored 13 of his 37 college TDs from inside the 5. He added 18 more from 6 to 25 out, 3 from 26-45, and 3 from 60 to 80.
Tebow averaged 4.3 yards per rush. Young averaged 6.8. Vince Young's 15th rushing attempt went 60 yards. The next game he busted off a 60 yarder against OU. Tebow rushed 600 times before going over 30 yards. Average TD distance for Tebow was 6.6 yards. For Young it was 15.7. Tebow is a big, fast, pretty much straight-ahead bruiser. VY is bigger, faster, can bruise you, but will usually just beat you instead and get more yardage. Clearly they are different kinds of rushing threats and this will affect how they are perceived and gameplanned in the NFL.
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the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
You weren't around here when VY was being drafted. It was most definitely vicious.
Possum
Footballguy
I agree with your first sentence wholeheartedly, but it seems a little strange to only post these guys' rushing stats, especially since part of this discussion has been comparing Tebow's passing mechanics and ability to Young's.Att-Comp-% Young 718-444-61.8 Tebow 985-661-67.1
Look, obviously both of these guys did great things in college, but they did them differently, regardless of what the casual observer will say. These differences are why we're here, right?
Young played for three years, Tebow for four. They both broke plenty of records and had plenty of firsts. Young was the first person in NCAA history to rush for 1000 yards and pass for 3000 yards in the same season. Tebow was the first person in NCAA history to score 20 rushing TDs and throw 20 TD passes in the same season.
Both scored lots of rushing TDs and at about the same rate. Tebow scored once every 12.14 carries. VY once every 12.35. However, they were very different runners. Tebow was essentially Florida's goal line back from the day he stepped on campus. In 4 years, he scored 41 of his 57 career TDs from inside the 5 yard line. He had 15 more from 6 to 25 yards out, and 1 from 55. In 3 years, VY scored 13 of his 37 college TDs from inside the 5. He added 18 more from 6 to 25 out, 3 from 26-45, and 3 from 60 to 80.
Tebow averaged 4.3 yards per rush. Young averaged 6.8. Vince Young's 15th rushing attempt went 60 yards. The next game he busted off a 60 yarder against OU. Tebow rushed 600 times before going over 30 yards. Average TD distance for Tebow was 6.6 yards. For Young it was 15.7. Tebow is a big, fast, pretty much straight-ahead bruiser. VY is bigger, faster, can bruise you, but will usually just beat you instead and get more yardage. Clearly they are different kinds of rushing threats and this will affect how they are perceived and gameplanned in the NFL.
Yds-TD-INT Young 6040-44-28 Tebow 9286-88-15
TD-INT ratio Young 1.57 - 1 Tebow 5.86 - 1
Yards per attempt Young 8.4 Tebow 9.4
it seems a little unfair to me though to just throw out career stats when Tebow played a year longer than Young, so here's Young vs. Tebow with Tebow's senior year taken out:
Att-Comp-% Young 718-444-61.8 Tebow 681-448-65.7
Yds-TD-INT Young 6040-44-28 Tebow 6391-67-10
TD-INT ratio Young 1.57 - 1 Tebow 6.7 - 1
Yards per attempt Young 8.4 Tebow 9.4
the yardage, attempts and completions are pretty similar, but Tebow has a higher completion % and a full yard more per attempt, and his TD-INT ratio and totals are pretty amazing. Young is kind of pedestrian in the TD-INT ratio but 8.4 ypa is still damn good.
like you said, they were both great players in college who did things in different ways. Young was faster, bigger and a better runner - Tebow was a better short yardage runner and a more effective passer.
*edited to add bold tags
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the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
OK, so are they the same? The underlying premise of the op seemed to be that they are. Do NFL defenses treat them the same?I agree with your first sentence wholeheartedly, but it seems a little strange to only post these guys' rushing stats, especially since part of this discussion has been comparing Tebow's passing mechanics and ability to Young's.Att-Comp-% Young 718-444-61.8 Tebow 985-661-67.1
Look, obviously both of these guys did great things in college, but they did them differently, regardless of what the casual observer will say. These differences are why we're here, right?
Young played for three years, Tebow for four. They both broke plenty of records and had plenty of firsts. Young was the first person in NCAA history to rush for 1000 yards and pass for 3000 yards in the same season. Tebow was the first person in NCAA history to score 20 rushing TDs and throw 20 TD passes in the same season.
Both scored lots of rushing TDs and at about the same rate. Tebow scored once every 12.14 carries. VY once every 12.35. However, they were very different runners. Tebow was essentially Florida's goal line back from the day he stepped on campus. In 4 years, he scored 41 of his 57 career TDs from inside the 5 yard line. He had 15 more from 6 to 25 yards out, and 1 from 55. In 3 years, VY scored 13 of his 37 college TDs from inside the 5. He added 18 more from 6 to 25 out, 3 from 26-45, and 3 from 60 to 80.
Tebow averaged 4.3 yards per rush. Young averaged 6.8. Vince Young's 15th rushing attempt went 60 yards. The next game he busted off a 60 yarder against OU. Tebow rushed 600 times before going over 30 yards. Average TD distance for Tebow was 6.6 yards. For Young it was 15.7. Tebow is a big, fast, pretty much straight-ahead bruiser. VY is bigger, faster, can bruise you, but will usually just beat you instead and get more yardage. Clearly they are different kinds of rushing threats and this will affect how they are perceived and gameplanned in the NFL.
Yds-TD-INT Young 6040-44-28 Tebow 9286-88-15
TD-INT ratio Young 1.57 - 1 Tebow 5.86 - 1
Yards per attempt Young 8.4 Tebow 9.4
it seems a little unfair to me though to just throw out career stats when Tebow played a year longer than Young, so here's Young vs. Tebow with Tebow's senior year taken out:
Att-Comp-% Young 718-444-61.8 Tebow 681-448-65.7
Yds-TD-INT Young 6040-44-28 Tebow 6391-67-10
TD-INT ratio Young 1.57 - 1 Tebow 6.7 - 1
Yards per attempt Young 8.4 Tebow 9.4
the yardage, attempts and completions are pretty similar, but Tebow has a higher completion % and a full yard more per attempt, and his TD-INT ratio and totals are pretty amazing. Young is kind of pedestrian in the TD-INT ratio but 8.4 ypa is still damn good.
like you said, they were both great players in college who did things in different ways. Young was faster, bigger and a better runner - Tebow was a better short yardage runner and a more effective passer.
*edited to add bold tags
I realized the running game was just part of the picture. I wasn't trying to pretend otherwise. The point was more to show that they're very different runners. I believe this is very important to their futures in the NFL. VY has had to improve his throwing to survive. Now he's having success as a runner again as a result.
I believe Tebow's passing is even more critical to his NFL future as a qb, as I just don't believe his running will buy him the same kind of time it did with VY.
I do feel that Tebow's slower release is going to be a problem for him, but it's fixable, esp if he has the time I think he'll have to work on it. If he doesn't have that time, it could be bad. I really think that's critical. I also think VY would have benefitted tremendously from time to mature and learn footwork, mechanics, etc before being thrown into the fire.
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borna'horn
Footballguy
I saw Tebow plenty of times. He played well and set a lot of records, but he never completely, single-handedly took over a game the way VY did in the 2 Rose Bowls. I don't think any game Tebow played compares with VY's games vs. Michigan, Ohio State, and USC. And those are just the big games. There are too many highlights of VY's career to go over here. He spent most 2nd halves of the 2005 season sitting on the bench after having basically toyed with defenses in the first halves.
By contrast, Tebow looked very mortal this year. I saw him routinely get sacked after holding onto the ball too long. He was 5th in the Heisman voting and didn't even deserve that. Even his 2007 Heisman only happened because Dennis Dixon got injured in his next-to-last game.
My biggest problem with Tebow is that people always quote his records and its always based on the number of TDs he scored. As Hairyscotsman pointed out, his stats are inflated by cheap, gimme TDs. Problem is this is the ONLY argument for Tebow being among the greatest players of all time. Take away those short TDs and he is just another good player in history.
He is NOT the greatest player of the decade, though he deserves to be in the Top 10. The three greatest players of the decade were the ones who took the field in the '06 Rose Bowl: VY, Bush, and Leinart. We have not seen their like since.
You say there is a reason many call Tebow the greatest player of the decade. Actually, in an ESPN online poll VY edged out Tebow even though Tebow had more 1st place votes. There is a reason for this too, and you want to pretend it does not exist. People either think Tebow is the greatest player ever or that he is vastly overrated. Many people think Tebow is the most overrated, overhyped player of our time. Some are blinded by his "accomplishments" while other realize that they are inflated and overhyped. For example, his SEC records were made out to be a bigger deal than other players' NATIONAL records. There was a media bias towards Tebow that duped people into believing he really was as great as they said he was.
Compared to players like VY and Reggie Bush, Tebow looked quite mortal. There is a reason Tebow was not a Top 20 draft pick.
By contrast, Tebow looked very mortal this year. I saw him routinely get sacked after holding onto the ball too long. He was 5th in the Heisman voting and didn't even deserve that. Even his 2007 Heisman only happened because Dennis Dixon got injured in his next-to-last game.
My biggest problem with Tebow is that people always quote his records and its always based on the number of TDs he scored. As Hairyscotsman pointed out, his stats are inflated by cheap, gimme TDs. Problem is this is the ONLY argument for Tebow being among the greatest players of all time. Take away those short TDs and he is just another good player in history.
He is NOT the greatest player of the decade, though he deserves to be in the Top 10. The three greatest players of the decade were the ones who took the field in the '06 Rose Bowl: VY, Bush, and Leinart. We have not seen their like since.
You say there is a reason many call Tebow the greatest player of the decade. Actually, in an ESPN online poll VY edged out Tebow even though Tebow had more 1st place votes. There is a reason for this too, and you want to pretend it does not exist. People either think Tebow is the greatest player ever or that he is vastly overrated. Many people think Tebow is the most overrated, overhyped player of our time. Some are blinded by his "accomplishments" while other realize that they are inflated and overhyped. For example, his SEC records were made out to be a bigger deal than other players' NATIONAL records. There was a media bias towards Tebow that duped people into believing he really was as great as they said he was.
Compared to players like VY and Reggie Bush, Tebow looked quite mortal. There is a reason Tebow was not a Top 20 draft pick.
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NoFBinLA
Moderator
Your point here, MOP, is the biggest thing. I got to talk to Demaryius Thomas and asked him what McD told him when he called him up to let Thomas know he's a Bronco. McD told Thomas that they were looking for 'great people and great players' and that he felt Thomas was both.It's key to me that people came first - McD is DONE with the lippy attitude he got from Cutler and Marshall - right or wrong. He looked (and will continue to look) to grab guys with his early picks who are high character guys - even if it means passing on a 'better' player like Dez Bryant.I can't claim to know for sure but it wouldn't shock me if Tebow hit it off with McD and his character and personality made McD feel like he'd do what he needed to and not be a jackass.The potential of Tebow aside, being who he is - the pick makes alot of sense from a character standpoint in retrospect.
borna'horn
Footballguy
Also, I get so sick and tired of people talking about VY as having had "ONE big game." We went into that game with a huge chip on our shoulder. People were not giving VY his due. That was his chance to prove he was the best, and he did it. So what do people say now? They say it was "just one game." That's baloney. VY was the most unstoppable player I ever saw on a college football field, and the 2006 Rose Bowl was the icing on the cake.
You tell me which is the more impressive lasting image:
You tell me which is the more impressive lasting image:
Possum
Footballguy
no, I don't think they're carbon copies - I agree with your point that they were both great college guys who did things differently. Just rounding out the stats for the full picture.I do think they share a lot of characteristics on and off the field though, enough to make the OP's post a worthwhile question.
Possum
Footballguy
you must've slept through the '08 SEC championship.
you think goalline TDs are "gimme TDs"?
first you say he's just another good player in history, then you say he's one of the top ten players of the decade. Then you point to an ESPN poll where he barely got voted #2 behind Young to show that people think he's overrated?come on dude, you obviously have an ax to grind with Tebow. Nobody's saying Vince Young isn't one of the greatest college QBs of all time, but like it or not, so was Tebow. There's no reason to get all pissed off about somebody making a comparison between the two.
Faust
MVP
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writ.../mailbag/1.html
• INTERESTING POINT ABOUT TEBOW AND VINCE YOUNG. From Tony of Wilmington, Del.: "Mr. King, do you find it at all interesting that so many question the Tim Tebow pick when Vince Young was considered to be first-round worthy when he was picked? Both had some mechanics issues, and both relied a lot on their athleticism as opposed to being pure passing QB's. But Tim Tebow was a better college QB in almost every respect. Most notably Tebow was more of a winner and appears to have far better intangibles and leadership ability. Why are so many willing to dismiss Tebow, particularly when Tebow appears to be strong in the areas where Young has struggled, i.e. the mental part of the game?''
It's an interesting point. I think the biggest thing they have in common is bad classic NFL quarterback mechanics. Young is still working on that aspect, as well as his accuracy. Tebow has a long way to go with his mechanics, but he'll have a good teacher in Josh McDaniels.
• INTERESTING POINT ABOUT TEBOW AND VINCE YOUNG. From Tony of Wilmington, Del.: "Mr. King, do you find it at all interesting that so many question the Tim Tebow pick when Vince Young was considered to be first-round worthy when he was picked? Both had some mechanics issues, and both relied a lot on their athleticism as opposed to being pure passing QB's. But Tim Tebow was a better college QB in almost every respect. Most notably Tebow was more of a winner and appears to have far better intangibles and leadership ability. Why are so many willing to dismiss Tebow, particularly when Tebow appears to be strong in the areas where Young has struggled, i.e. the mental part of the game?''
It's an interesting point. I think the biggest thing they have in common is bad classic NFL quarterback mechanics. Young is still working on that aspect, as well as his accuracy. Tebow has a long way to go with his mechanics, but he'll have a good teacher in Josh McDaniels.
I think you're wrong. I think both are good leaders.
fatness
Footballguy
Vince Young took over a 0-6 team last year and they went 8-2.
Tau837
Footballguy
Possum
Footballguy
they were both incredible winners in college - Tebow hasn't had to struggle as a young QB in the NFL yet.
SSOG
Moderator
I agree with all of this. Tebow's not going to be an electric runner at the NFL level. He wasn't an electric runner at the college level. He wasn't the kind of guy that was going to manufacture a lot of yards with his legs. He was the kind of guy who would get you the toughest of the tough yards with his legs, and all the rest of the yards with his arm.the hairy scotsman said:
1. Again, anyone who says that Tim Tebow never "took over a game" never actually saw Tim Tebow play.2. If goal line carries were "gimme" TDs, then why had no RB in the history of the SEC scored as many as Tebow? Do you think no team has ever given one player all of their goal line carries? Do you think Georgia didn't give Herschel Walker the ball at the goal line? The only reason those TDs were "gimmes" is because Tim Tebow was the guy carrying the ball- you're right, when Tebow has the rock, any short yardage conversion is a "gimme". And if you want to say that Tebow was lucky because he had so many more goal line opportunities than everyone else... well, who do you think got Tebow all those goal line opportunities in the first place? Here's a hint: it's the guy who led Florida in passing and rushing for three straight years and who set the SEC record for total offense.3. I quoted a lot of records that had nothing to do with TDs scored. For instance, how do Tebow's "gimme" TDs result in him being the 2nd highest rated passer in NCAA history? What do 50+ rushing TDs have to do with the fact that Tebow set SEC records for total offense, or with the fact that he led the SEC in passing for three straight seasons? What do his rushing TDs have to do with his record TD:INT ratio? What do his rushing TDs have to do with his 9.5 career ypa or the fact that he had one fewer PASSING TD than Peyton Manning (despite Manning starting 4 seasons to Tebow's 3)?4. Yeah, a lot of people think Tebow's overrated. It's media fatigue. A lot of people used to think (and some still think) that Peyton Manning was overrated, too, just because he got a ton of media exposure. That doesn't make those people right, it just means they're sick of hearing about him. And pretty understandably so- the Tebow coverage was (and remains) ludicrously over the top. That's not Tim Tebow's fault, though. It's not like Tim Tebow asked a reporter to come to SEC media days and ask him if he was still a virgin. It's not like Tim Tebow called ESPN and asked them if they'd like to do a documentary on him while he was still in high school. It's not like Tebow invited the media on his mission trips just to get a bit more name recognition. It's not like Tebow was intentionally messing up his mechanics just so the talking heads would be forced to debate him prior to the draft.5. Tebow wouldn't have needed a Dennis Dixon injury to seal up the Heisman if it weren't for the voters' anti-sophomore bias. If he'd been a junior, he'd have sewn that thing up after the FSU game. Also, if he hadn't already won the Heisman, he probably would have won it in 2008, too- a lot of people didn't vote for him because he already had one Heisman in his pocket.6. Vince Young was a fantastic college football player, one of the 5 best of the last decade... but he was no Tim Tebow.borna said:
They were given "no shot"? That's revisionist history. ESPN gave them no shot, because ESPN was too busy chasing storylines. Vegas set them up as 7 point underdogs, which is a substantial margin, hardly "no shot" territory. Traditionally, 7 point dogs have a 33% chance of winning the game outright. Hell, the 2006 Gators were bigger underdogs to the Buckeyes (7.5 points).
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Maybe you're taking "no shot" too literally. There were a few exceptions, but hardly anyone in the media anywhere was giving Texas a shot in that game. It was being treated overwhelmingly as a foregone conclusion with the Trojans' winning margin all that remained to be determined. It was that way here at FBG as well. The mere mention of Texas having a chance of winning the game or that the game would be a good one would draw outright ridicule. I remember it well. There were a few of us here with that pov, but we were immediately berated as homers, fanboys, whatever, as soon as we said as much, no matter how much well-reasoned rationale we used to back up our premise. In the end, I think all of that worked in Texas' favor.
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SSOG
Moderator
Like I said, I know that ESPN gave them no shot. In fact, I think that whole "where do the 2005 USC Trojans rank among the greatest teams in college football history" was possibly the most disgraceful thing ESPN has ever done- and that's really, really saying something- and I was tremendously glad when it all blew up in their faces. I think they actually learned a lesson from it, too- after all, they waited until after the Pats/Giants superbowl to begin discussing where New England ranked in history.With that said, the people who actually knew anything about college football- i.e. Vegas and the people who were willing to put their money where their mouth was- viewed USC as a strong favorite, but hardly a prohibitive favorite. I mean, Texas wasn't even one of the biggest championship game underdogs of the past decade. Consider the following- Pittsburgh (-6.5) vs. Arizona, Indianapolis (-9.5) vs. Chicago, and New England (-11.5) vs. New York in the pro ranks. Miami (-12) vs. tOSU, Oklahoma (-6.5) vs. LSU, and tOSU (-7.5) vs. Florida. I couldn't find the line for USC vs. Oklahoma, but as you can see, only the buffoons (or the people who listened to the buffoons at ESPN) really thought Texas had no chance. In fact, 5 of the 7 underdogs I just listed (counting Texas) wound up winning outright. So... yeah, USC was a garden variety "strong favorite" (hardly a New England -11.5 or a Miami -12), and anyone smart enough to actually risk money on the outcome was definitely giving Texas more than a puncher's chance.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Who knows?I think it's pretty clear they'll find a way to get him in the game in some limited capacity this year, though. That would be one way.
the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Oh yeah, you're right about Vegas and the money. I was referring more to public, internet (here), and media opinion...and I'm guessing that's what Steelfan was alluding to as well. It was a big deal at the time. There were a lot of buffoons ;-) out there...and here. You couldn't try to have a rational conversation about it without getting the "USC is the greatest team ever, don't you understand, you moron?" crap thrown back in your face and just getting shouted down.
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Tanner9919
Footballguy
one played in the SEC ( Tebow)against very tough opponents while the other , VY, played against pancake teams in the Big 12..Tebow was lights-out against world-beater defenses and teams like Bama, LSU, etc..
many thought they were looking at Vick v2.0 or even a better Vick in VY, but they were really looking at Kordell Stewart v2.0
now, VY has made some strides and looks decent as a starter thus far, but, so did Kordell for a year or two, until the wheels came off the cart..I suspect the same will happen with VY - he's just not that good..
it might also happen with Tebow, but we'll have to wait-n-see..
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
I think one of the biggest differences is that Young peaked at just the right time to be drafted. Young didn't even really blossom as a collegiate passer until his junior season and what with the thrilling national championship game in which he perhaps played the best game ever played, his stock rose to an all-time high. Don't forget that some opinions were extremely polarized on Young as well. I believe Merrill Hoge (I think) graded Vince Young out as a 4th round pick.
Both players were extremely polarizing coming out of college, but Young simply emerged and declared in a compact enough timeframe to not have time start to whittle at his draft status.
One other thing too that I think plays into Young's high draft status was the success of Michael Vick at the time. Young had his National Championship season in 2005. Vick had taken the Falcons to the playoffs in 2002 and NFC Championship Game in 2004. Young was seen in that light of a mobile QB who could create plays with his legs but stood 6'5 with better pocket presence. With Tebow though, with the exception of Young, the mobile, create plays with their legs type player has gone the way of the do-do. And while Tebow doesn't compare to either Vick or Young in this respect - I don't think teams are as enamored with outside the pocket type presence from QB's as they were 5 years ago.
Both players were extremely polarizing coming out of college, but Young simply emerged and declared in a compact enough timeframe to not have time start to whittle at his draft status.
One other thing too that I think plays into Young's high draft status was the success of Michael Vick at the time. Young had his National Championship season in 2005. Vick had taken the Falcons to the playoffs in 2002 and NFC Championship Game in 2004. Young was seen in that light of a mobile QB who could create plays with his legs but stood 6'5 with better pocket presence. With Tebow though, with the exception of Young, the mobile, create plays with their legs type player has gone the way of the do-do. And while Tebow doesn't compare to either Vick or Young in this respect - I don't think teams are as enamored with outside the pocket type presence from QB's as they were 5 years ago.
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the hairy scotsman
Footballguy
Actually, if you want to take a look without the hyperbolic lenses, that's really not the case.Texas' 2005 opponents and their NCAA Total Defense ranks:
5. Ohio State
11. Kansas
13. OU
30. Texas Tech
41. Colorado (x2)
48. USC
50. Missouri
...and so on...
Florida's 2009 opponents:
2. Bama
15. S. Carolina
21. Mississippi
22. Tennessee
26. LSU
53. KU
56. Vandy
...and so on...
Texas' opponents had an average rank of 51.3 compared to Florida's opponents' 56.9. (unable to figure in Charleston Southern here)
Florida's conference opponents had an average rank of 38 compared to Texas conference opponents' 45.6
I don't see the disparity of "world-beaters" or "pancakes". These defensive schedules lookly roughly comparable, imho.
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ChargersOH
Footballguy
The dude quit on his team. He was the antithesis of a leader. I can't even remember Jeff George wimping out in such a grand fashion. He won games, but likewise nobody would call him a leader.That same team went 13-3 the previous year with him riding pine before a few stupid playoff turnovers against Baltimore stopped what could've been a Super Bowl run. So which one was better, last years where Vince actually played some, despite looking pitiful against New England and San Diego, or the one in 2008 that had a far better record with VY being a sub?
borna'horn
Footballguy
VY came in as a freshman at Texas and turned around the team at midseason. The next year he led them to their first BCS win. The next year he led them to their first NC in 35 years.
He came into the NFL and led a team that started 0-5 to the brink of the playoffs, earning himself ROY. This year he came in and did the same thing with a team that started 0-6. He has the 6th best winning percentage amongst active NFL starters.
VY is a winner and a leader. Anyone who does not see that has not been following his career the whole way.
Tebow? He makes a lot of noise and pumps his beliefs, but the truth is his first season he was a role player for Florida's NC team. In his three years as a starter he lost three times as many games as VY. VY finished his career on a 20-0 streak with another year he left on the table. Tebow finished his career crying over Alabama.
The idea that Tebow is definitely a better leader and/or winner than VY is laughable.
He came into the NFL and led a team that started 0-5 to the brink of the playoffs, earning himself ROY. This year he came in and did the same thing with a team that started 0-6. He has the 6th best winning percentage amongst active NFL starters.
VY is a winner and a leader. Anyone who does not see that has not been following his career the whole way.
Tebow? He makes a lot of noise and pumps his beliefs, but the truth is his first season he was a role player for Florida's NC team. In his three years as a starter he lost three times as many games as VY. VY finished his career on a 20-0 streak with another year he left on the table. Tebow finished his career crying over Alabama.
The idea that Tebow is definitely a better leader and/or winner than VY is laughable.
Aardvarks
Footballguy
Best post I've read in months.Look, I know things that most people do not, in regards to Vince & TN. Let me add this: just because Vince stepped in and beat some lousy teams (Buffalo, St. Louis, San Francisco, even a Warner-less Arizona squad), it doesn't mean jack squat. He had the NFL's most devastating yardage-maker accepting the football from his outstretched hand 25 times per game too.Bubby Brister would have led TN to at least a 5-5 record down the stretch last year. Look at how their schedule loosened up, especially after they opened with like 5 of 7 on the road.From what I've seen, Tim Tebow is a leader. From what I *know*, Vince Young is not a leader. Everything else is up for debate... but that point is not.ChargersOH said:
fatness
Footballguy
Reading the post immediately before your, I'd say yeah, it's not only open for debate but it looks like your side is losing.
Abraham
Footballguy
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chinawildman
Footballguy
I just don't get the Tebow hype... what is he great at other than having a winning record? He's not super fast, he's not accurate, he throws slow and awkwardly... sounds like a poor man's Charlie Ward.
I mean leadership is a great quality and all, but it needs to be paired with great performance to be realized. How many 3 and outs can an offense endure before they start tuning out to "great leadership"? As a 49ers fan I have the same concerns about Singletary on the coaching level. He's a great motivator and leader of men. But if that doesn't translate to points and wins, how soon before his preaching fall on deaf ears?
I mean leadership is a great quality and all, but it needs to be paired with great performance to be realized. How many 3 and outs can an offense endure before they start tuning out to "great leadership"? As a 49ers fan I have the same concerns about Singletary on the coaching level. He's a great motivator and leader of men. But if that doesn't translate to points and wins, how soon before his preaching fall on deaf ears?
Wasn't this the same guy that Kerry Collins was handing the ball to and the team was 0-6?
SSOG
Moderator
@ 9-7 Pittsburghvs. 9-7 Houston@ 9-7 NYJets@ 7-9 Jacksonvillevs. 14-2 Indy@ 10-6 New England@ 14-2 Indyvs. 13-3 San Diego____________________vs. 7-9 Jacksonville@ 8-8 San Franvs. 6-10 Buffalo@ 9-7 Houstonvs. 10-6 Arizonavs. 1-15 St. Louisvs. 7-9 Miami@ 5-11 SeattleThe games above the line represent Tennessee's losses. The games below the line represent Tennessee's wins. Other than a road game against 7-9 Jacksonville (a divisional rival), Tennessee didn't lose to a single team with a winning record. Other than a road game against 9-7 Houston (a divisional rival) and a home game against 10-6 Arizona, Tennessee didn't beat a single team with a winning record. It looks to me like Tennessee mostly managed to beat the teams that an average team should beat, and lose to the teams that an average team should lose to. It also looks like Tennessee had the misfortune of facing a tougher stretch to open the season than they faced to close the season. The switch to Vince Young coincided with Tennessee's schedule mostly easing up, and the Titans performed roughly the same after the switch as they did before... it's just that "roughly the same production" against an easy schedule equates to wins, and against a tough schedule equates to losses.Looking at scoring differential really reinforces that take on events. Tennessee lost by 13 combined points to Pitt, Houston, and the Jets, meaning they were playing the 9-7 teams very tough even to start the season. Then, with Young under center, they beat San Fran, Houston, and Arizona by a combined 13 points... which, again, means they were pretty much dead even with the average teams on their schedule. On the other hand, they got blown out by Indy and New England early in the season (under Collins)... and by Indy and San Diego late in the season (under Young), meaning they weren't hanging with the big boys no matter WHEN they caught them.The whole "Tennessee was a completely different team under Young" narrative makes for a great, heartwarming tale, and it passes cursory examination if all you look at is wins and losses... but dig a little deeper and I'm not at all convinced that it's an accurate narrative of the season. I think a better description of last year's Tennessee Titans would be "they were an 8-8 team that played exactly like you'd expect an 8-8 team to play all season long... and oh yeah, by the way, they happened to switch QBs at some point".
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chinawildman
Footballguy
I think you meant the games above the line are their losses, not wins.Regardless I see the point you're trying to make. But doesn't beating the average teams by 13pts vs losing by 13pts to the same average teams at least mean something? Young has won twice as many games as he's lost in games he's started in his NFL career, that can't just be through happenstance.
SSOG
Moderator
Good catch- the games above the line were losses, the ones below were wins. I've fixed my op, thanks.Re: winning by 13 vs. losing by 13... I don't think it means that much. 2 of the 3 games they lost by 13 combined were on the road. 2 of the 3 they won by 13 combined were at home. The teams they lost to (Pitt and NYJ) were, in my opinion, better than the teams they beat (San Fran and Arizona). I think the net takeaway from it is that every game they played against average teams was a tight, single-possession affair. That suggests to me that Tennessee's true ability is right on par with those average teams that they're playing so tight.As for Young's winning percentage... it certainly can happen through happenstance. Kyle Orton is 29-19 lifetime, but he's a total afterthought, a guy that Chicago includes as a THROW-IN on a trade for Cutler. Atlanta was 39-29 in games Vick started... and 9-20 in games he missed, yet nobody on earth would call Vick a "leader". As for Young... sure, Tennessee posted an awesome won/loss split with him this last season, but as I said, a lot of that was just a fluke of scheduling. On the other hand, Tennessee had a better winning percentage last year without Young (12-3) than they did this year with Young (6-2). There really hasn't been any compelling evidence over the last 4 years that Tennessee is any better with Young, or any worse without him.
