Vince Young and Tim Tebow (1 Viewer)

[chinawildman]

I think you meant the games above the line are their losses, not wins.Regardless I see the point you're trying to make. But doesn't beating the average teams by 13pts vs losing by 13pts to the same average teams at least mean something? Young has won twice as many games as he's lost in games he's started in his NFL career, that can't just be through happenstance.

Good catch- the games above the line were losses, the ones below were wins. I've fixed my op, thanks.Re: winning by 13 vs. losing by 13... I don't think it means that much. 2 of the 3 games they lost by 13 combined were on the road. 2 of the 3 they won by 13 combined were at home. The teams they lost to (Pitt and NYJ) were, in my opinion, better than the teams they beat (San Fran and Arizona). I think the net takeaway from it is that every game they played against average teams was a tight, single-possession affair. That suggests to me that Tennessee's true ability is right on par with those average teams that they're playing so tight.As for Young's winning percentage... it certainly can happen through happenstance. Kyle Orton is 29-19 lifetime, but he's a total afterthought, a guy that Chicago includes as a THROW-IN on a trade for Cutler. Atlanta was 39-29 in games Vick started... and 9-20 in games he missed, yet nobody on earth would call Vick a "leader". As for Young... sure, Tennessee posted an awesome won/loss split with him this last season, but as I said, a lot of that was just a fluke of scheduling. On the other hand, Tennessee had a better winning percentage last year without Young (12-3) than they did this year with Young (6-2). There really hasn't been any compelling evidence over the last 4 years that Tennessee is any better with Young, or any worse without him.

All valid points, though I would argue Young's record is better than both of those guys. I certainly don't attribute all of the Titans' late season success to VY, but I won't go so far as to say that he was a non-factor either. If we simply look at divisional games before and after the bye (same opponents) they were 0-3 pre bye week with 2 of the games at home and one on the road. After VY and the bye, they went 2-1 against the same teams with 2 of the games on the road and one at home. Basically I'm saying the stats are ambiguous enough to where it can be spun however you want to look at it. What's undeniable IMO (and you'll notice my Austin origin) is that VY does have somewhat of an "IT" quality to him allowing him to win in the clutch and pull out Ws.

 

[fatness]

Look, I know things that most people do not, in regards to Vince & TN. Let me add this: just because Vince stepped in and beat some lousy teams (Buffalo, St. Louis, San Francisco, even a Warner-less Arizona squad), it doesn't mean jack squat. He had the NFL's most devastating yardage-maker accepting the football from his outstretched hand 25 times per game too.

Bubby Brister would have led TN to at least a 5-5 record down the stretch last year. Look at how their schedule loosened up, especially after they opened with like 5 of 7 on the road.

From what I've seen, Tim Tebow is a leader. From what I *know*, Vince Young is not a leader. Everything else is up for debate... but that point is not.

Wasn't this the same guy that Kerry Collins was handing the ball to and the team was 0-6?

Yes, it was the same guy.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

I think you meant the games above the line are their losses, not wins.

Regardless I see the point you're trying to make. But doesn't beating the average teams by 13pts vs losing by 13pts to the same average teams at least mean something? Young has won twice as many games as he's lost in games he's started in his NFL career, that can't just be through happenstance.

Good catch- the games above the line were losses, the ones below were wins. I've fixed my op, thanks.Re: winning by 13 vs. losing by 13... I don't think it means that much. 2 of the 3 games they lost by 13 combined were on the road. 2 of the 3 they won by 13 combined were at home. The teams they lost to (Pitt and NYJ) were, in my opinion, better than the teams they beat (San Fran and Arizona). I think the net takeaway from it is that every game they played against average teams was a tight, single-possession affair. That suggests to me that Tennessee's true ability is right on par with those average teams that they're playing so tight.

As for Young's winning percentage... it certainly can happen through happenstance. Kyle Orton is 29-19 lifetime, but he's a total afterthought, a guy that Chicago includes as a THROW-IN on a trade for Cutler. Atlanta was 39-29 in games Vick started... and 9-20 in games he missed, yet nobody on earth would call Vick a "leader". As for Young... sure, Tennessee posted an awesome won/loss split with him this last season, but as I said, a lot of that was just a fluke of scheduling. On the other hand, Tennessee had a better winning percentage last year without Young (12-3) than they did this year with Young (6-2). There really hasn't been any compelling evidence over the last 4 years that Tennessee is any better with Young, or any worse without him.

You're talking about 2009, right?Tennessee was 8-2 with Young, not 6-2.

8-2 = 80% = 12-3

I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but it seems to me that a better indication would be Collins' overall win/loss% at Tennessee vs VY's % since his arrival, rather than cherrypicking and leaving out Collins' 0-6 from 2009.

ETA: From what I can tell from Titans online, including playoff games, VY is 26-13 since his arrival and Collins is 13-14 in the same time frame.

Yes, it was the same guy.

The same guy who, by all indications, couldn't have been happier when VY was put in the lineup.

 

[Verbal Kint]

better comparison = ken dorsey ---> tim tebow.only difference is muscles and media sucking tebows nuts

Dorsey didn't sniff the Heisman or put up near the #s Tebow did. He wasn't a mobile QB and was a pure passer. This is a terrible comparison.

if by didnt sniff, you mean 2time heisman finalist, then yes. you are correct.

Touche'. You were right and I forgot about that. My bad. I guess my point is I see Tebow more as a Vince Young type threat than a pocket passer. Dorsey's and Tebow's NCAA game were quite contrasting imo.

The more apt comparison for Tebow is David Garrard.

[Dodds] Sleeper of the year! [/Dodds]

 

[Verbal Kint]

The more basic question is, how much do you value the "it" factor in a quarterback in relation to how their skillset conforms to that of a traditional pocket quarterback?

Guys like Vick and, to a lesser extent Vince, that don't fit the prototype, but just know how to win, versus guys like Leaf who have beautiful form but just implode?

I don't know the answer, and I realize that you can find examples either way. But I will say that whatever "it" is, Tebow has more of it that any QB I've ever seen coming out of college.

 

[borna'horn]

But I will say that whatever "it" is, Tebow has more of it that any QB I've ever seen coming out of college.

Then you obviously missed VY's 2 Rose Bowls and his game at Ohio State. Tebow never did anything comparable in his career. If Tebow starts in place of VY against USC, then USC wins by double digits.Another point about Chris Johnson - this isn't the first time a high profile RB greatly improved his production with VY in at QB. Cedric Benson had a pedestrian sophomore year but immediately became a bigger threat once VY took over at Texas in 2003.

 

[SSOG]

But I will say that whatever "it" is, Tebow has more of it that any QB I've ever seen coming out of college.

Then you obviously missed VY's 2 Rose Bowls and his game at Ohio State. Tebow never did anything comparable in his career. If Tebow starts in place of VY against USC, then USC wins by double digits.Another point about Chris Johnson - this isn't the first time a high profile RB greatly improved his production with VY in at QB. Cedric Benson had a pedestrian sophomore year but immediately became a bigger threat once VY took over at Texas in 2003.

Again, you just as obviously missed Tebow's entire career. Tebow never matched Vince Young's Rose Bowl against USC (obviously when I call something the best individual game in history, that means no other individual game matches it), but Tim Tebow had peaks every bit as high as Young's other peaks- and many times more frequent. I suspect that if you put Vince Young and Tim Tebow's careers together, Young would own the #1 game... while Tebow would own 7 of the top 10 and 15 of the top 20.

 

[Verbal Kint]

Don't get me wrong. Vince's Rose Bowl against USC was one of the greatest single game performances I've ever seen. But Tebow seems much more coachable and I think won't lose his head like Vince did when the chips were down a couple years ago.

 

[borna'horn]

I suspect that if you put Vince Young and Tim Tebow's careers together, Young would own the #1 game... while Tebow would own 7 of the top 10 and 15 of the top 20.

Baloney. VY's 2 Rose Bowls and the win vs. Ohio State are better than anything that Tebow ever did in college. There is also the game vs. OK State where he had 508 total yards including an 80-yard TD run on a pump fake, something Tebow could never do in his dreams. There is also VY converting 4th-and-18 vs. Kansas to keep the BCS bowl berth alive. There is the comeback vs. OK State where Texas was down 35-7 and ended up winning 56-35. VY was invincible. His high school coach said, "When he takes over that team, look out, he will not let them lose." And that is exactly what VY did. It just didn't get hyped as much as Tebow.One thing people forget is that when VY took over at Texas, the Longhorns were not respected nationally. Sure they could get 10 or 11 wins, but the rap was Texas could not win the big game. They were the underdog going into Ohio State and vs. USC. People doubted Texas because the Longhorns had yet to prove themselves under Mack Brown. VY not only played great, but he gave his teammates confidence that they could win the big game. He was always picking up his teammates. In the summer of '05, VY wrote on the chalkboard, "Whoever wants to beat Ohio State meet me on the practice field every day at 7AM." Had Tebow done that, you would never stop hearing about it from the media. For some reason, everything Tebow does is overhyped.

VY took a program and fanbase and made them believe they could finally get over the hump. Part of his legend is looking at the trophy case as a recruit, seeing that Texas hadn't won a NC in over 30 years, and saying, "Looks like these guys need some help." By contrast, by the time Tebow started his first game, Florida was already the defending national champion.

Here's a clear example of Tebow hyperbole. People often talk about him winning 2 NCs and a Heisman as if that is unprecedented. Well, Matt Leinart started for 2 NC teams, almost won a 3rd, and also won a Heisman. Why is Tebow being a backup for one, starting for another (neither one an undefeated team) and winning a Heisman a bigger deal? Because its Tebow.

And that is the problem a lot of us have. The media hype for Tebow is hollow. He is among the great players of the decade, but to tout him as being the best without question is plain ridiculous. The facts simply do not support it.

 

[ChargersOH]

Am I the only one that wouldn't feel all that warm and fuzzy if a guy I just burnt a passel of picks to acquire was being compared to Vince Young?That's not exactly effusive praise in my book.

Except Denver essentially gave up nothing. They traded down to get extra picks, got their planned WR and Tebow in the first round without losing any of their previous picks. I have no doubt Denver would not have gotten Tebow in the second, and they coveted the guy, so it was a smart move trading around and getting both of their guys in the first, and still having their other draft picks.This is different from Tennessee who spent a #3 on VY. Four years later the jury is still out on Young. He hasn't panned out as quickly as Tenn would have hoped, but QBs rarely do right out of college. Young was great in college, no doubt. I think Tebow was better and played tougher SEC D's overall, although that's subjective. I watched both of them play, and both were winners and competitors in college. It's a shame Vince Young didn't stick around and play in 2006. They might've played in the National Champ against Florida, which drubbed Ohio State easily.. The same team someone was preaching about Texas beating.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

One huge factor dramatically in favor of Tebow is that he has gone to a team where the head coach (who is also the offensive coordinator) is much more willing to run a less conventional NFL offense and has hand picked Tebow to run it. Fisher is a great coach, but he was not going to change his philosophy to accommodate Vince Young. McDaniels on the other hand, closely observed the Meyer Florida spread offense, and incorporated many of its elements into the NE/Denver playbook- witthout the QB running elements. Both Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton looked very good in that system. Now he has a Florida QB coming in to run it.

The jury is out on whether or not Tebow will be able to change his mechanics, make the throws, and learn to read the whole field. However, he should have a much easier transition understanding how the offense works in theory.

 

[thevidon]

One huge factor dramatically in favor of Tebow is that he has gone to a team where the head coach (who is also the offensive coordinator) is much more willing to run a less conventional NFL offense and has hand picked Tebow to run it. Fisher is a great coach, but he was not going to change his philosophy to accommodate Vince Young. McDaniels on the other hand, closely observed the Meyer Florida spread offense, and incorporated many of its elements into the NE/Denver playbook- witthout the QB running elements. Both Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton looked very good in that system. Now he has a Florida QB coming in to run it.The jury is out on whether or not Tebow will be able to change his mechanics, make the throws, and learn to read the whole field. However, he should have a much easier transition understanding how the offense works in theory.

I've never understood why coaches (and O-coords) will just run a set "system" even if they don't have the proper personnel to do so. Look at what KC did when they had Thigpen at QB, or NE with Cassel - their normal systems weren't working so they switched it up to take advantage of their QB's strengths. Hell, Bill Walsh evolved the West Coast offense to cover for deficiencies in the size/strength of his teams.

 

[ChargersOH]

One huge factor dramatically in favor of Tebow is that he has gone to a team where the head coach (who is also the offensive coordinator) is much more willing to run a less conventional NFL offense and has hand picked Tebow to run it. Fisher is a great coach, but he was not going to change his philosophy to accommodate Vince Young. McDaniels on the other hand, closely observed the Meyer Florida spread offense, and incorporated many of its elements into the NE/Denver playbook- witthout the QB running elements. Both Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton looked very good in that system. Now he has a Florida QB coming in to run it.The jury is out on whether or not Tebow will be able to change his mechanics, make the throws, and learn to read the whole field. However, he should have a much easier transition understanding how the offense works in theory.

I've never understood why coaches (and O-coords) will just run a set "system" even if they don't have the proper personnel to do so. Look at what KC did when they had Thigpen at QB, or NE with Cassel - their normal systems weren't working so they switched it up to take advantage of their QB's strengths. Hell, Bill Walsh evolved the West Coast offense to cover for deficiencies in the size/strength of his teams.

Systems are manageable, evolving, and one can plug different players in and not disrupt the whole. When you have too much flexibility with players you go backwards and see problems. such as WRs have when they go from crisp route running and pocket passers to QB runners who don't throw into the proper windows, or do their own thing resulting in turnovers.The problem becomes when that system is inflexible, and coaches do not leverage their individual QB strengths. That said, it's better to recruit and plan based on philosophy instead of trying to cater to individuals in my opinion. Building a game plan around a Mike Vick is nice. However, give me a system Tom Brady or Peyton Manning any day over the 'special' QBs.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

One huge factor dramatically in favor of Tebow is that he has gone to a team where the head coach (who is also the offensive coordinator) is much more willing to run a less conventional NFL offense and has hand picked Tebow to run it. Fisher is a great coach, but he was not going to change his philosophy to accommodate Vince Young. McDaniels on the other hand, closely observed the Meyer Florida spread offense, and incorporated many of its elements into the NE/Denver playbook- witthout the QB running elements. Both Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton looked very good in that system. Now he has a Florida QB coming in to run it.The jury is out on whether or not Tebow will be able to change his mechanics, make the throws, and learn to read the whole field. However, he should have a much easier transition understanding how the offense works in theory.

I've never understood why coaches (and O-coords) will just run a set "system" even if they don't have the proper personnel to do so. Look at what KC did when they had Thigpen at QB, or NE with Cassel - their normal systems weren't working so they switched it up to take advantage of their QB's strengths. Hell, Bill Walsh evolved the West Coast offense to cover for deficiencies in the size/strength of his teams.

Great point here. If McDaniel is going to run plays that take advantage of Tebow's strengths and de-emphasize his weaknesses, that's obviously going to help him a lot. Tennessee finally got around to doing that with VY and, combined with some key improvements on his part, look what happened. It's an ongoing process, as it will be with Tebow, but the importance of this approach cannot be underestimated, imho.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

I suspect that if you put Vince Young and Tim Tebow's careers together, Young would own the #1 game... while Tebow would own 7 of the top 10 and 15 of the top 20.

Baloney. VY's 2 Rose Bowls and the win vs. Ohio State are better than anything that Tebow ever did in college. There is also the game vs. OK State where he had 508 total yards including an 80-yard TD run on a pump fake, something Tebow could never do in his dreams. There is also VY converting 4th-and-18 vs. Kansas to keep the BCS bowl berth alive. There is the comeback vs. OK State where Texas was down 35-7 and ended up winning 56-35. VY was invincible. His high school coach said, "When he takes over that team, look out, he will not let them lose." And that is exactly what VY did. It just didn't get hyped as much as Tebow.One thing people forget is that when VY took over at Texas, the Longhorns were not respected nationally. Sure they could get 10 or 11 wins, but the rap was Texas could not win the big game. They were the underdog going into Ohio State and vs. USC. People doubted Texas because the Longhorns had yet to prove themselves under Mack Brown. VY not only played great, but he gave his teammates confidence that they could win the big game. He was always picking up his teammates. In the summer of '05, VY wrote on the chalkboard, "Whoever wants to beat Ohio State meet me on the practice field every day at 7AM." Had Tebow done that, you would never stop hearing about it from the media. For some reason, everything Tebow does is overhyped.

VY took a program and fanbase and made them believe they could finally get over the hump. Part of his legend is looking at the trophy case as a recruit, seeing that Texas hadn't won a NC in over 30 years, and saying, "Looks like these guys need some help." By contrast, by the time Tebow started his first game, Florida was already the defending national champion.

Here's a clear example of Tebow hyperbole. People often talk about him winning 2 NCs and a Heisman as if that is unprecedented. Well, Matt Leinart started for 2 NC teams, almost won a 3rd, and also won a Heisman. Why is Tebow being a backup for one, starting for another (neither one an undefeated team) and winning a Heisman a bigger deal? Because its Tebow.

And that is the problem a lot of us have. The media hype for Tebow is hollow. He is among the great players of the decade, but to tout him as being the best without question is plain ridiculous. The facts simply do not support it.

Hard to find anything to disagree with here.

Don't forget that after the 4th & 18 vs Kansas he hit Tony Jeffery in the corner of the end zone from 21 yards out for the gwtd with 11 seconds left.

...or against OU in 2005 when Billy Pittman came to the huddle saying he thought the OU defense had our play and knew we were gonna run the wheel play. VY just turned and said "So what?". Then they ran the wheel play to perfection, with a wide open Pittman scoring from 64 yards out.

Seriously, these are just snippets, but VY had ridiculous stats playing about 2.25 quarters about 3 out of every 4 games.

It's a shame Vince Young didn't stick around and play in 2006. They might've played in the National Champ against Florida, which drubbed Ohio State easily..

Nobody wishes he'd have come back for his senior year more than I do. I believe that would have been the matchup, and I woulda been there. I missed Texas-USC. I'm not missing any more.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

There is also the game vs. OK State where he had 508 total yards including an 80-yard TD run on a pump fake, something Tebow could never do in his dreams.

Yeah, to find a game like that for Tebow you'd have to go all the way back......one game. 530 yards and 4 TDs in this year's Sugar Bowl against an undefeated team.Or we could go back to the South Carolina game where he put up 450 yards and 7 TDs. SEVEN.

Here's a clear example of Tebow hyperbole. People often talk about him winning 2 NCs and a Heisman as if that is unprecedented. Well, Matt Leinart started for 2 NC teams, almost won a 3rd, and also won a Heisman. Why is Tebow being a backup for one, starting for another (neither one an undefeated team) and winning a Heisman a bigger deal? Because its Tebow.

For starters, USC only won one national championship this decade so let's get right over that (and spare me the crap about the AP poll, love it or hate it the BCS is the system we have now and that's what counts, and at worst it's still a LOT better than what we had before). Beyond that, no one is saying that two national titles and a heisman is this huge unprecidented thing, it's just one thing on the list among many of his collegiate accomplishments.There's also the fact that Tebow did what he did in the SEC, widely regarded as by far the strongest conference and the strongest defensive conference in the country by even the league's biggest haters while Leinart did it in the Pac-10 which at the time was widely regarded as a joke of a conference outside of USC themselves, especially on the defensive side of the football.

And while there's no doubt Tebow had a lot of talent around him, the talent at USC at the time makes Florida's offense without Tebow look like a high school team. Florida had one elite WR for two years who had to spend half his time lined up at tailback to make up for their deficiencies at that position, another decent WR (Murph), and a whole lotta nothing beyond that. This year they were starting a 4th string tailback at wide receiver they were so decimated at the position.

 

[phthalatemagic]

Here's a clear example of Tebow hyperbole. People often talk about him winning 2 NCs and a Heisman as if that is unprecedented. Well, Matt Leinart started for 2 NC teams, almost won a 3rd, and also won a Heisman. Why is Tebow being a backup for one, starting for another (neither one an undefeated team) and winning a Heisman a bigger deal?

 

[the hairy scotsman]

There is also the game vs. OK State where he had 508 total yards including an 80-yard TD run on a pump fake, something Tebow could never do in his dreams.

Yeah, to find a game like that for Tebow you'd have to go all the way back......one game. 530 yards and 4 TDs in this year's Sugar Bowl against an undefeated team.Or we could go back to the South Carolina game where he put up 450 yards and 7 TDs. SEVEN.

Here's a clear example of Tebow hyperbole. People often talk about him winning 2 NCs and a Heisman as if that is unprecedented. Well, Matt Leinart started for 2 NC teams, almost won a 3rd, and also won a Heisman. Why is Tebow being a backup for one, starting for another (neither one an undefeated team) and winning a Heisman a bigger deal? Because its Tebow.

For starters, USC only won one national championship this decade so let's get right over that (and spare me the crap about the AP poll, love it or hate it the BCS is the system we have now and that's what counts, and at worst it's still a LOT better than what we had before). Beyond that, no one is saying that two national titles and a heisman is this huge unprecidented thing, it's just one thing on the list among many of his collegiate accomplishments.There's also the fact that Tebow did what he did in the SEC, widely regarded as by far the strongest conference and the strongest defensive conference in the country by even the league's biggest haters while Leinart did it in the Pac-10 which at the time was widely regarded as a joke of a conference outside of USC themselves, especially on the defensive side of the football.

And while there's no doubt Tebow had a lot of talent around him, the talent at USC at the time makes Florida's offense without Tebow look like a high school team. Florida had one elite WR for two years who had to spend half his time lined up at tailback to make up for their deficiencies at that position, another decent WR (Murph), and a whole lotta nothing beyond that. This year they were starting a 4th string tailback at wide receiver they were so decimated at the position.

I believe what BH was referring to TT being unable to do is the 80 yard TD run...but I could be wrong.

As for the big #s one game ago, Tebow did have a great game. It's also true, Cincy was an undefeated team. This, however, was the same team who gave up an average of nearly 42 ppg to Pitt, Illinois, and UConn in 3 of it's last 4 regular season games, 2 of those at home.

 

[borna'horn]

Tebow's game vs. Cincy was one of the best passing exhibitions I have ever seen. I never bought the idea that Tebow cannot throw accurately. There is no merit to that.

But it was Cincinnati, a team that played poor defense AND lost its coach before the bowl. When I point out VY's biggest games I don't even need to mention his highlight-reel, crazy stat games against the likes of OK State and Colorado. Those games alone would put him at least on par with Tebow. Its the games vs. USC, Michigan, and Ohio State that put VY above Tebow. What he did in carrying his team in those games has never been equaled by Tebow or anyone else I can think of. You have to go all the way back to Red Grange vs. Michigan in 1924 to find anyone doing what VY did in those two Rose Bowls.

One theory I have about Tebow is that 2005 was a hard year to top for college football. You had the most anticipated matchup maybe in history, USC going for a three-peat, a game that exceeded the hype, and you had three Heisman finalists the likes of which we have never seen at one time. When Tebow came along in 2006, there was a vacuum of sorts. People needed something to talk about, and Tebow got all the attention. If he had played at the same time as Leinart, Bush, and VY, there is no way Tebow would be called the greatest player of all time. He probably would own neither a Heisman nor a NC trophy.

 

[CravenM]

Tebow's game vs. Cincy was one of the best passing exhibitions I have ever seen. I never bought the idea that Tebow cannot throw accurately. There is no merit to that.

You should have stopped there.

But it was Cincinnati, a team that played poor defense AND lost its coach before the bowl. When I point out VY's biggest games I don't even need to mention his highlight-reel, crazy stat games against the likes of OK State and Colorado. Those games alone would put him at least on par with Tebow. Its the games vs. USC, Michigan, and Ohio State that put VY above Tebow. What he did in carrying his team in those games has never been equaled by Tebow or anyone else I can think of. You have to go all the way back to Red Grange vs. Michigan in 1924 to find anyone doing what VY did in those two Rose Bowls.

WOW - Exaggerate much? Your opinion of the importance of the Rose Bowl relative to ever other college game in history is ridic...

One theory I have about Tebow is that 2005 was a hard year to top for college football. You had the most anticipated matchup maybe in history, USC going for a three-peat, a game that exceeded the hype, and you had three Heisman finalists the likes of which we have never seen at one time. When Tebow came along in 2006, there was a vacuum of sorts. People needed something to talk about, and Tebow got all the attention. If he had played at the same time as Leinart, Bush, and VY, there is no way Tebow would be called the greatest player of all time. He probably would own neither a Heisman nor a NC trophy.

pppffffftttt - 2005 was big for Texas and USC fans - nothing more.USC plays in a conference of wanna-be's and had a good run but they weren't tested week in and week out like SEC teams. No school in the PAC 10 has played defensive football for a long time. Unfortunately, that trend has bled over to the Big 12 with the exception of Texas and Oklahoma to some degree.2 years ago, Oklahoma's defensive was a comparatively below average SEC defense and a very pretty good offense. The BCS Championship showed the results.Last season, Texas was again a comparatively below average SEC defense that again got spanked by the SEC champion.3 years ago, Ohio State's "best ever football team" got WAXED by Florida who ran up and down the field on them all night while holding their offense (with the Heisman trophy winning QB) to 88 yards.Face it - SEC has been big-boy football for the last decade and the other conferences have been fighting for 2nd place for a long time. And the 90's weren't too bad for the SEC as well

 

[the hairy scotsman]

2 years ago, Oklahoma's defensive was a comparatively below average SEC defense and a very pretty good offense. The BCS Championship showed the results.Last season, Texas was again a comparatively below average SEC defense that again got spanked by the SEC champion.

You're obviously , with a few huge exaggerations in response to what you called a huge exaggeration on BH's part...but wth, I'll bite. 2 years ago, Oklahoma shouldn't have even been in that game, and showed why. Using them is a pretty poor example. Texas in 2009 against Bama completely shut down Bama's passing game. Texas blanketed Bama wrs and sacked McElroy 5 of the 15 times he dropped back to pass, and that's rushing only 4 and with McCoy out of the game. Imagine if McCoy had been in the game and the D had the luxury of having Bama in obvious passing situations. They shut down the running game for most of the 2nd half as well after Bama ran the ball well in the first half. Texas offense was trying to adjust and was getting nowhere in the first half, leaving the D on the field the whole half. Bama's "Big Boy" Defense let a true freshman qb with zero starts and very few snaps get the Horns back within 3 with 3 or 4 minutes left.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

There is also the game vs. OK State where he had 508 total yards including an 80-yard TD run on a pump fake

When I point out VY's biggest games I don't even need to mention his highlight-reel, crazy stat games against the likes of OK State and Colorado.

One theory I have about Tebow is that 2005 was a hard year to top for college football. You had the most anticipated matchup maybe in history, USC going for a three-peat, a game that exceeded the hype, and you had three Heisman finalists the likes of which we have never seen at one time. When Tebow came along in 2006, there was a vacuum of sorts. People needed something to talk about, and Tebow got all the attention. If he had played at the same time as Leinart, Bush, and VY, there is no way Tebow would be called the greatest player of all time. He probably would own neither a Heisman nor a NC trophy.

You live in your own little world, man. Texas vs. USC is only remembered as much as it is (which is not as much as you think it is, btw) because it had a great ending. 2005 was a hard year for college football? Where were you? You had two franchises just as big as, no, bigger than Texas and USC, undefeated and on a collision course towards the end of the year. You had OSU with their "best team ever" going up against an undefeated Michigan team that people though was stacked enough to go to the NC game even after losing in the last week. Troy Smith, Ted Ginn, Chad Henne, Manningham, Arrington, Lauranitis, these guys were huge names in college football. That OSU/Michigan game that year was considered by many to be the most anticipated regular season college football game of all-time and if it OSU hadn't been embarrassed so badly by Florida in the NC game it would probably still be thought of as one of the most important.

2 years ago, Oklahoma shouldn't have even been in that game, and showed why. Using them is a pretty poor example. Texas in 2009 against Bama completely shut down Bama's passing game. Texas blanketed Bama wrs and sacked McElroy 5 of the 15 times he dropped back to pass, and that's rushing only 4 and with McCoy out of the game. Imagine if McCoy had been in the game and the D had the luxury of having Bama in obvious passing situations. They shut down the running game for most of the 2nd half as well after Bama ran the ball well in the first half. Texas offense was trying to adjust and was getting nowhere in the first half, leaving the D on the field the whole half. Bama's "Big Boy" Defense let a true freshman qb with zero starts and very few snaps get the Horns back within 3 with 3 or 4 minutes left.

Don't even try and pretend that you didn't think Oklahoma was a great team (and even better offense) that year. Like that 2005 Ohio State team they were considered every bit as good as any recent USC offense (if not better) headed into that bowl game. I'm sure you were on some forums somewhere talking smack about how OU was going to show those SEC defenses that they're not as good as they think they are. If anything you should be counting yourselves lucky that those 2004 Texas and USC teams didn't get paired up with an SEC champion in their bowl game that year or you may be talking about them with as much hindsight as you are 2005 OSU or 2007 OU.And, without insulting your knowledge of college football, it was pretty clear to anyone watching last year's title game that Alabama went into super conservative mode when they got a lead with Colt out.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Don't even try and pretend that you didn't think Oklahoma was a great team (and even better offense) that year.

You won't believe this, but I don't know why. Texas fans weren't thinking OU was a great team going into that game with UF. Why would they? Texas had scored 45 on OU in the win over OU in Dallas. We also weren't under any illusions of having one of our best defenses, either, so most of us figured OU would score less on Florida than they did on us, and give up a similar amount on D. We were generally pretty sure Tebow and Harvin were gonna tear 'em a new one.

Like that 2005 Ohio State team they were considered every bit as good as any recent USC offense (if not better) headed into that bowl game. I'm sure you were on some forums somewhere talking smack about how OU was going to show those SEC defenses that they're not as good as they think they are.

LMAO...you really have Big 12 fans twisted if you think they're rooting for each other at every opportunity the way SEC fans do. Texas fans especially were down on OU after the way that season ended. Besides, I didn't get my degree from the Big 12. I got it from the University of Texas...and no, even though we beat OU in 2008, they were not nearly as good as the USC team we beat in the 2006 Rose Bowl. Not on offense. Not on defense. Not any way you measure them...and Texas wasn't as good in 2008 as in 2005 either. 2008 Texas would have lost to 2005 USC. That seems obvious to me.

If anything you should be counting yourselves lucky that those 2004 Texas and USC teams didn't get paired up with an SEC champion in their bowl game that year or you may be talking about them with as much hindsight as you are 2005 OSU or 2007 OU.

OK. I'll assume you're talking about the 2005 Texas and USC teams here. When was I talking about 2005 OSU (Ohio State?) or 2007 OU? As for the SEC bluster...after the 2005 season, 10-2 Bama squeaked by Texas Tech 13-10, giving them their third loss. Their first was to Texas, 52-17. 9-3 Florida beat a 7-5 Iowa team by 7. 11-2 LSU beat 9-3 Miami by a bunch. 10-3 Georgia lost to WVU, 9-3 Auburn lost to 10-3 Wisconsin (records all include games listed). Who was the big threat?

And, without insulting your knowledge of college football, it was pretty clear to anyone watching last year's title game that Alabama went into super conservative mode when they got a lead with Colt out.

Yeah, that's obvious. Still, when Bama was trying to throw the ball, they weren't just doing it for ####s and grins. They wanted to get something done...and couldn't. In the second half, they wanted to get something done on the ground...and couldn't, until very late in the game (mostly with short fields, iirc). To their credit, they still got it done when they needed to, but Craven makes it sound like they cruised against a full-strength team, when nothing could have been further from the truth. Bama won fair and square. Not trying to say they didn't. Acting like this was some kind of straight up blowout, though, is ludicrous.

 

[phthalatemagic]

There is also the game vs. OK State where he had 508 total yards including an 80-yard TD run on a pump fake

When I point out VY's biggest games I don't even need to mention his highlight-reel, crazy stat games against the likes of OK State and Colorado.

He's a Hell, his name is bornahorn. There's no getting through to the guy.

 

[borna'horn]

I have said consistently that when I talk about VY's biggest games I'm talking about USC, Michigan, and Ohio State. And I'll say it again - Tebow never did anything as good as VY in those three games.

I'm sure you were on some forums somewhere talking smack about how OU was going to show those SEC defenses that they're not as good as they think they are.

We're not like you. We don't pathetically hide behind our conference's achievements instead of our own. Why should we? We're Texas. We are the winningest program of the past decade and the 2nd-winningest program in all of college football history. Who gives a &$%# what our conference does.

 

[phthalatemagic]

We're Texas. We are the winningest program of the past decade and the 2nd-winningest program in all of college football history.

Jesus.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Just fyi guys, yes, Borna Horn is obviously very much a ... so much so that he catches a ton of flak for it even back on the Texas football boards. Still, he uses a lot of truth and some good points to support his Texas bias. He just goes a little over the top sometimes. That's all.

He means well.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

I have said consistently that when I talk about VY's biggest games I'm talking about USC, Michigan, and Ohio State. And I'll say it again - Tebow never did anything as good as VY in those three games.

Why was Vince Young game against a two loss/13th ranked team in the Rose Bowl a bigger game or on a bigger stage that Tebow annihilating a zero loss, 4th ranked Cincinnati in the Sugar Bowl. Is it because the Texas game was closer. Just because it was a great game, doesn't make Michigan a great team.Why is Vince Young's regular season game against Ohio State more significant than Tebpw's SEC conference championship game against the 12-0 #1 ranked Alabama on a neutral site? After this game Saban made his team watch clips of Tebow again and again, saying "We are going to have to outwork this guy if we want to be champions".I am a big VInce Young fan, and I thought his he had an amazing final season. He was simply jaw dropping to watch. However, that doesn't mean that Tebow didn't have as many big games against big teams.