Vince Young refusing to throw at the combine? (1 Viewer)

[Hawk]

Will the side arm crap work in the NFL?  Yes, if he can place it accurately, which he has shown he can.  And because he's almost 6'6, his lower delivery point is still higher than many NFL QB's. 

That side arm crap is going to get batted down in the nfl.

Really?Chris Simms (6'4", 220) has as perfect a throwing motion as there is, yet one of his biggest problems in college was that he got a TON of passes batted down, certainly far more, even by per centage basis than Young (6'5", 240). Young rarely gets a ball batted. It may still be happening some to Simms in the league, but it's certainly nowhere near the problem for him that it was in college. Why is that?

I'll tell you why. He reads defenses better and sees passing lanes better now, and that's due to coaching and film work. Vince Young, low release and all, is far better in this regard at the same stage than Simms was.

You think Young can't be coached up? I'd say a kid whom many were saying should be moved to WR one year, then leads the nation in pass-efficiency the next, along the way becoming the first ever 3000/1000 QB is very coachable.

That's funny, Scotsman, I almost typed the exact same thing about Simms. Simms had major issues with batted balls in college, and he's doing okay in the NFL. Vince never had that problem like Simms did. And I'm a big Simms fan, but Vince is a much better QB than Simms, and its not really that close. The biggest difference is that Simms seemed to wilt in the big games and big moments whereas that was when Vince was at his best. I can't emphasize enough the importance of that attribute in a QB. Simms could have played for a title, but he had a really bad game in the Big 12 championship game against Colorado and lost the opportunity. On the other hand, behind Vince Texas destroyed Colorado 70-3 in the Big 12 title game this year.

Simms always seemed like he wasn't sure he could win. He'd make a mistake, start dwelling on it, then would crater. Vince always seemed like he didn't think he could lose. He'd make a mistake, then he'd shrug it off, come back out, and kill you.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Will the side arm crap work in the NFL?  Yes, if he can place it accurately, which he has shown he can.  And because he's almost 6'6, his lower delivery point is still higher than many NFL QB's. 

That side arm crap is going to get batted down in the nfl.

Really?Chris Simms (6'4", 220) has as perfect a throwing motion as there is, yet one of his biggest problems in college was that he got a TON of passes batted down, certainly far more, even by per centage basis than Young (6'5", 240). Young rarely gets a ball batted. It may still be happening some to Simms in the league, but it's certainly nowhere near the problem for him that it was in college. Why is that?

I'll tell you why. He reads defenses better and sees passing lanes better now, and that's due to coaching and film work. Vince Young, low release and all, is far better in this regard at the same stage than Simms was.

You think Young can't be coached up? I'd say a kid whom many were saying should be moved to WR one year, then leads the nation in pass-efficiency the next, along the way becoming the first ever 3000/1000 QB is very coachable.

That's funny, Scotsman, I almost typed the exact same thing about Simms. Simms had major issues with batted balls in college, and he's doing okay in the NFL. Vince never had that problem like Simms did. And I'm a big Simms fan, but Vince is a much better QB than Simms, and its not really that close. The biggest difference is that Simms seemed to wilt in the big games and big moments whereas that was when Vince was at his best. I can't emphasize enough the importance of that attribute in a QB. Simms could have played for a title, but he had a really bad game in the Big 12 championship game against Colorado and lost the opportunity. On the other hand, behind Vince Texas destroyed Colorado 70-3 in the Big 12 title game this year.

Simms always seemed like he wasn't sure he could win. He'd make a mistake, start dwelling on it, then would crater. Vince always seemed like he didn't think he could lose. He'd make a mistake, then he'd shrug it off, come back out, and kill you.

That (red) is Vince Young in a nutshell, and that's why if you doubt him, he's gonna beat you. He has the memory of a DB.

 

[Irish]

Well, just so everyone knows, he isn't the first or last guy to do this. Some guys dont even go to the combine. Almost every big name player skips some aspects of the combine. I don't think Lienart is even going to the combine.

Young is still going to have a private workout and he is still going to have a pro day. He will throw plenty at those.

I do agree that it is a little weak for him not to do this.

Lienart has proved time and time again that he can make big time throws downfield against big time competition. Young has done nothing besides throw floaters and have his WR make plays against terrible Big 12 defenses. Lienart does not need to go to the combine. Young needs to prove doubters wrong, if he can that is.

Leinart has proven he can win most games when he has by far the most talented team around him. IMO there is still some question if Leinart is more a product of the SC system and superior talent. Leinart does not have a strong arm but he is very accurate. however he was rarely under pressure and most qb can be accurate with no pressure. He is also spoiled to winning as proven by his whiny comments after the Texas game and I wonder how he'll respond to playing for a team like NO. Vince Young is the real deal. It might take a year or two to sit and learn to read NFL defenses, but he just has "IT".

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Question for anyone...

How can Vince Young help himself by throwing at the combine?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Question for anyone...

How can Vince Young help himself by throwing at the combine?

He can't, he can only hurt himself. However, he is hurting himself more than other top talents that don't work out at the combine because:A) He said he would, for some strange reason

B) He did throw at the Skills Competition, a very poor idea

C) His "agent" (and I use that term loosely) was quoted as saying that Young wasn't throwing at the Combine because of "unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers"



You and Hawk can defend him all you want and you may be correct about his NFL success in the end. But the 3 things above are negatively affecting his draft status and perception.

 

[Kleck.]

You can Hawk can defend him all you want and you may be correct in the end. But the 3 things above are negatively affecting his draft status and perception.

The affect it might have on his draft status now is minimal and really does not matter since we are still two and a half months away from the draft. This whole thing will be forgotten by scouts after his pro-day. Will people critcize Reggie Bush or Deangelo Williams if they don't run the 40 at the combine? They shouldn't.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

You can Hawk can defend him all you want and you may be correct in the end. But the 3 things above are negatively affecting his draft status and perception.

The affect it might have on his draft status now is minimal and really does not matter since we are still two and a half months away from the draft. This whole thing will be forgotten by scouts after his pro-day. Will people critcize Reggie Bush or Deangelo Williams if they don't run the 40 at the combine? They shouldn't.

Sure, but the point is that there is an effect. It may well be forgotten. But the fact is that Young has opened himself up to questions and speculation, which isn't a very smart thing to do.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Question for anyone...

How can Vince Young help himself by throwing at the combine?

He can't, he can only hurt himself. However, he is hurting himself more than other top talents that don't work out at the combine because:A) He said he would, for some strange reason

B) He did throw at the Skills Competition, a very poor idea

C) His "agent" (and I use that term loosely) was quoted as saying that Young wasn't throwing at the Combine because of "unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers"



You and Hawk can defend him all you want and you may be correct about his NFL success in the end. But the 3 things above are negatively affecting his draft status and perception.

Actually, the effect on his draft status is as of yet undetermined. We shall see.

 

[Hawk]

There are a few people heavily criticizing VY for not throwing, but mostly they are idiots. Like Colin Cowherd who seems obsessed with it lately and has been bashing VY. Then Cowherd has Mel Kiper on today and Kiper basically tells him he's wrong and that VY would be stupid to throw at the combine with a bunch of QB's that will be driving beer trucks in a couple of years. I understand that the Falcons GM said the same thing when Cowherd had him on. NFL people all seem to agree VY shouldn't throw, but does Cowherd listen to people who know more than him? No.

VY should be criticized for making a questionable decision on his agent who let him do the all-star challenge (although VY looked pretty good overall in that), who let him say he was going to throw and then backed out raising criticism that would not have amounted to much if he had never said he was going to throw in the first place, etc. But making a bad choice of agents doesn't mean he won't be a good NFL player, and making a dumb move by saying he'll throw at the combine does not mean he should compund that mistake by going ahead and throwing when it would be dumb for him to do so.

 

[Kleck]

I think it would be a huge mistake for Young to do anything at the combine. After the national title game he would have nowhere to go but down.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

There are a few people heavily criticizing VY for not throwing, but mostly they are idiots. Like Colin Cowherd who seems obsessed with it lately and has been bashing VY. Then Cowherd has Mel Kiper on today and Kiper basically tells him he's wrong and that VY would be stupid to throw at the combine with a bunch of QB's that will be driving beer trucks in a couple of years. I understand that the Falcons GM said the same thing when Cowherd had him on. NFL people all seem to agree VY shouldn't throw, but does Cowherd listen to people who know more than him? No.

VY should be criticized for making a questionable decision on his agent who let him do the all-star challenge (although VY looked pretty good overall in that), who let him say he was going to throw and then backed out raising criticism that would not have amounted to much if he had never said he was going to throw in the first place, etc. But making a bad choice of agents doesn't mean he won't be a good NFL player, and making a dumb move by saying he'll throw at the combine does not mean he should compund that mistake by going ahead and throwing when it would be dumb for him to do so.

I agree with all your points. But I think the idea of this thread was to discuss whether it would affect his draft status. Hard to say, but it's possible. On a separate topic of how Young will do in the NFL, I think there's a sharp learning curve, but he will probably make it. However, I don't think his NFL success is as guaranteed as some people make it sound.

 

[Hawk]

There are a few people heavily criticizing VY for not throwing, but mostly they are idiots.  Like Colin Cowherd who seems obsessed with it lately and has been bashing VY.  Then Cowherd has Mel Kiper on today and Kiper basically tells him he's wrong and that VY would be stupid to throw at the combine with a bunch of QB's that will be driving beer trucks in a couple of years.  I understand that the Falcons GM said the same thing when Cowherd had him on.  NFL people all seem to agree VY shouldn't throw, but does Cowherd listen to people who know more than him?  No.

VY should be criticized for making a questionable decision on his agent who let him do the all-star challenge (although VY looked pretty good overall in that), who let him say he was going to throw and then backed out raising criticism that would not have amounted to much if he had never said he was going to throw in the first place, etc.  But making a bad choice of agents doesn't mean he won't be a good NFL player, and making a dumb move by saying he'll throw at the combine does not mean he should compund that mistake by going ahead and throwing when it would be dumb for him to do so.

I agree with all your points. But I think the idea of this thread was to discuss whether it would affect his draft status. Hard to say, but it's possible. On a separate topic of how Young will do in the NFL, I think there's a sharp learning curve, but he will probably make it. However, I don't think his NFL success is as guaranteed as some people make it sound.

I think it will affect his draft status in a positive way. If he throws at the combine people will focus on every little criticism they can find and will spend weeks tearing apart his quirky throwing motion. None of that will help him in the end, and frankly, none of that is really that relevant but people need a story and criticizing the guys at the top makes a good story. So not throwing is the smart decision. He will work out for teams and will do the UT pro day, and that will be all he needs to maintain his draft position. I think he's a lock for top four at this point regardless. Even Cowherd said VY probably goes to Tennessee at #3 after spending all that time bashing him.

Besides, I don't think Leinart will throw at the combine (I'd be shocked if he did). I'm starting to wonder whether Cutler will.

 

[Bevo]

Well, just so everyone knows, he isn't the first or last guy to do this. Some guys dont even go to the combine. Almost every big name player skips some aspects of the combine. I don't think Lienart is even going to the combine.

Young is still going to have a private workout and he is still going to have a pro day. He will throw plenty at those.

I do agree that it is a little weak for him not to do this.

Lienart has proved time and time again that he can make big time throws downfield against big time competition. Young has done nothing besides throw floaters and have his WR make plays against terrible Big 12 defenses. Lienart does not need to go to the combine. Young needs to prove doubters wrong, if he can that is.

The vast majority of the defenses that Leinert threw against were pathetic PAC-10 defenses that are light years behind the Big-12 Ds. The PAC-10, as a conference, has HORRIBLE defenses.

I do agree that Young needs to throw, but there is no reason in hell for him to throw at the combine. He can throw at the Texas pro day and at selected NFL team tryouts and do everything he needs to do.

 

[Bevo]

Well, just so everyone knows, he isn't the first or last guy to do this. Some guys dont even go to the combine. Almost every big name player skips some aspects of the combine. I don't think Lienart is even going to the combine.

Young is still going to have a private workout and he is still going to have a pro day. He will throw plenty at those.

I do agree that it is a little weak for him not to do this.

Lienart has proved time and time again that he can make big time throws downfield against big time competition. Young has done nothing besides throw floaters and have his WR make plays against terrible Big 12 defenses. Lienart does not need to go to the combine. Young needs to prove doubters wrong, if he can that is.

Holy cow, this is a ridiculous post. You obviously did not watch Vince Young play this year. Sure, he threw for over 3,000 yards and 26 TD's by throwing nothing but floaters. And I think Leinart is a good prospect, but the Big 12 defenses are better than than Pac 10 defenses. This has to be one of the dumbest posts I've seen in quite some time.

You're right VY has all the tools necessary to be successful at the next level. You think he's going to run around in the NFL like he did in college?

Its not going to happen.

You think that side arm crap will work in the NFL? It might, and VY can make the claim he is the black Bernie Kosar.

Vince does have the tools. Dead arm? He just threw it 75 yards in the All star Challenge. Other than a funky delivery, he's got great physical tools. And arm strength is not everything, VY is a lot more accurate than Vick.Will he run around in the NFL? Yes. Not as much as college, but enough to make him dangerous. Again you are proving that you did not watch many of VY's games this year. Aside from USC and OkState, games in which he ran more because he was taking over to get the win, he only had about 600-650 yards rushing on the season (about 50-60 yards per game). He passed a lot more than he ran this year. Assuming his O-coordinator in the NFL is not a moron that tries to make him a total pocket passer, I would expect him to average 40-50 yards rushing per game in the NFL.

Will the side arm crap work in the NFL? Yes, if he can place it accurately, which he has shown he can. And because he's almost 6'6, his lower delivery point is still higher than many NFL QB's.

If you're going to talk about tools, you need to also focus on the tools that can't be coached: leadership and ability to thrive under extreme pressure. Those are the tools that make it very unlikely IMO that he will be a bust in the NFL.

Who is the last QB to come out of the Big 12 to be worth a #### in the NFL?

I have no reason to believe this one will be any different.

Exactly what relevance does that have to anything? This is now, not at some time in the past. Try to keep up.

 

[Bevo]

Question for anyone...

How can Vince Young help himself by throwing at the combine?

He can't, he can only hurt himself. However, he is hurting himself more than other top talents that don't work out at the combine because:A) He said he would, for some strange reason

B) He did throw at the Skills Competition, a very poor idea

C) His "agent" (and I use that term loosely) was quoted as saying that Young wasn't throwing at the Combine because of "unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers"



You and Hawk can defend him all you want and you may be correct about his NFL success in the end. But the 3 things above are negatively affecting his draft status and perception.

Can you show me a link to any scout or NFL teams that believes that this has negatively affected his draft status and perception? I'm not saying that there aren't some, but the only places I have seen that are on forums like this not from scouts or NFL teams. Would you say that the things that you mention have dropped him 3, 5, 10, 20 places? Has he dropped out of the 1st round because he won't throw at the combine but he will throw at the Texas pro day and for selected teams? How many draft positions has this supposed negativity cost him?

I will say that I think he would have been better by saying he would not throw at the combine from day one. But I have an really, really hard time believeing that a team like the Titans were thinking that they would maybe draft him at #3, they then heard him change his mind on throwing at the combine and decided they were no longer very interested in him and dropped him to #10 on their charts.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Question for anyone...

How can Vince Young help himself by throwing at the combine?

He can't, he can only hurt himself. However, he is hurting himself more than other top talents that don't work out at the combine because:A) He said he would, for some strange reason

B) He did throw at the Skills Competition, a very poor idea

C) His "agent" (and I use that term loosely) was quoted as saying that Young wasn't throwing at the Combine because of "unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers"



You and Hawk can defend him all you want and you may be correct about his NFL success in the end. But the 3 things above are negatively affecting his draft status and perception.

Can you show me a link to any scout or NFL teams that believes that this has negatively affected his draft status and perception? I'm not saying that there aren't some, but the only places I have seen that are on forums like this not from scouts or NFL teams. Would you say that the things that you mention have dropped him 3, 5, 10, 20 places? Has he dropped out of the 1st round because he won't throw at the combine but he will throw at the Texas pro day and for selected teams? How many draft positions has this supposed negativity cost him?

I will say that I think he would have been better by saying he would not throw at the combine from day one. But I have an really, really hard time believeing that a team like the Titans were thinking that they would maybe draft him at #3, they then heard him change his mind on throwing at the combine and decided they were no longer very interested in him and dropped him to #10 on their charts.

So now I have to preface all my remarks with "in my opinion"? Ok, here goes:

In my opinion, any decent NFL front office will view the 3 items I listed above with a critical eye when evaluating Vince Young.

In my opinion, there will be at least one team that says "Looking at the film, I have some questions about his throwing motion and his ability to take a snap under center. I saw him at the UT Pro Day with hand picked WRs, a hand picked Center and only making the throws he wanted, but I didn't get to see what he was like out of his element at an All-Star game or the Combine. The best we've got is the Skills Competition in which he looked all right, but not fantastic. And he didn't take snaps from center in that. So you know, what? Let's drop him from 3 to 5 Overall on our draft board."

In my opinion, you are a blind homer if you discount that possibility.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Question for anyone...

How can Vince Young help himself by throwing at the combine?

He can't, he can only hurt himself. However, he is hurting himself more than other top talents that don't work out at the combine because:A) He said he would, for some strange reason

B) He did throw at the Skills Competition, a very poor idea

C) His "agent" (and I use that term loosely) was quoted as saying that Young wasn't throwing at the Combine because of "unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers"



You and Hawk can defend him all you want and you may be correct about his NFL success in the end. But the 3 things above are negatively affecting his draft status and perception.

Can you show me a link to any scout or NFL teams that believes that this has negatively affected his draft status and perception? I'm not saying that there aren't some, but the only places I have seen that are on forums like this not from scouts or NFL teams. Would you say that the things that you mention have dropped him 3, 5, 10, 20 places? Has he dropped out of the 1st round because he won't throw at the combine but he will throw at the Texas pro day and for selected teams? How many draft positions has this supposed negativity cost him?

I will say that I think he would have been better by saying he would not throw at the combine from day one. But I have an really, really hard time believeing that a team like the Titans were thinking that they would maybe draft him at #3, they then heard him change his mind on throwing at the combine and decided they were no longer very interested in him and dropped him to #10 on their charts.

So now I have to preface all my remarks with "in my opinion"? Ok, here goes:

In my opinion, any decent NFL front office will view the 3 items I listed above with a critical eye when evaluating Vince Young.

In my opinion, there will be at least one team that says "Looking at the film, I have some questions about his throwing motion and his ability to take a snap under center. I saw him at the UT Pro Day with hand picked WRs, a hand picked Center and only making the throws he wanted, but I didn't get to see what he was like out of his element at an All-Star game or the Combine. The best we've got is the Skills Competition in which he looked all right, but not fantastic. And he didn't take snaps from center in that. So you know, what? Let's drop him from 3 to 5 Overall on our draft board."

In my opinion, you are a blind homer if you discount that possibility.

Hand-picked WRs? You mean the ones who couldn't even run the right routes until Vince got 'em to do extra workouts & get in sync? The difference between those WRs this year vs last is like night & day. If he'd have come out last year, he'd want to use someone else's WRs. The only reason that's not the case today is because he pushed those guys to be better. Hand-picked center? Lyle Sendlein is only a one-year starter. Vince had to get used to him this year, just like he got used to a different center when he came out of Madison H.S., just like he got used to a different center when he became a starter, just like he'll have to get used to someone else next year. He's had multiple centers at Texas. Is this really an issue?

Making only the throws he wants? Come on...Does anyone in their right mind really believe that's gonna happen? Any scout who lets something like that occur should be terminated post-haste.

 

[Bri]

QB Tutoring

Retired NFL assistant coach Jerry Rhome, a former Dallas Cowboys draft choice and assistant, has been hired by Texas quarterback Vince Young to help prepare him for any pre-draft workouts.

Rhome, who came out of retirement in October this past season to help coach Minnesota's quarterbacks, will tutor Young in his hometown of Houston. He coached his last of 33 seasons spent playing and coaching in the NFL with the Atlanta Falcons in 2001.

The Cowboys' 13th-round futures pick in 1964, the same year the Cowboys used a 10th-round pick on Roger Staubach, spent the 1989 season coaching quarterbacks for the Cowboys. Troy Aikman, the soon-to-be-inducted Hall of Fame quarterback, always gave Rhome credit for helping him survive his rookie season. Rhome ended up playing four years for the Cowboys (1965-68).

While Young's representatives insist he will not throw at next week's NFL Combine (Feb. 22-28) in Indianapolis, chances are he will throw at the University of Texas' pro workout day on March 22.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news.cfm?id=6...A73E2257F8E4651

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Question for anyone...

How can Vince Young help himself by throwing at the combine?

He can't, he can only hurt himself. However, he is hurting himself more than other top talents that don't work out at the combine because:A) He said he would, for some strange reason

B) He did throw at the Skills Competition, a very poor idea

C) His "agent" (and I use that term loosely) was quoted as saying that Young wasn't throwing at the Combine because of "unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers"



You and Hawk can defend him all you want and you may be correct about his NFL success in the end. But the 3 things above are negatively affecting his draft status and perception.

Can you show me a link to any scout or NFL teams that believes that this has negatively affected his draft status and perception? I'm not saying that there aren't some, but the only places I have seen that are on forums like this not from scouts or NFL teams. Would you say that the things that you mention have dropped him 3, 5, 10, 20 places? Has he dropped out of the 1st round because he won't throw at the combine but he will throw at the Texas pro day and for selected teams? How many draft positions has this supposed negativity cost him?

I will say that I think he would have been better by saying he would not throw at the combine from day one. But I have an really, really hard time believeing that a team like the Titans were thinking that they would maybe draft him at #3, they then heard him change his mind on throwing at the combine and decided they were no longer very interested in him and dropped him to #10 on their charts.

So now I have to preface all my remarks with "in my opinion"? Ok, here goes:

In my opinion, any decent NFL front office will view the 3 items I listed above with a critical eye when evaluating Vince Young.

In my opinion, there will be at least one team that says "Looking at the film, I have some questions about his throwing motion and his ability to take a snap under center. I saw him at the UT Pro Day with hand picked WRs, a hand picked Center and only making the throws he wanted, but I didn't get to see what he was like out of his element at an All-Star game or the Combine. The best we've got is the Skills Competition in which he looked all right, but not fantastic. And he didn't take snaps from center in that. So you know, what? Let's drop him from 3 to 5 Overall on our draft board."

In my opinion, you are a blind homer if you discount that possibility.

Hand-picked WRs? You mean the ones who couldn't even run the right routes until Vince got 'em to do extra workouts & get in sync? The difference between those WRs this year vs last is like night & day. If he'd have come out last year, he'd want to use someone else's WRs. The only reason that's not the case today is because he pushed those guys to be better. Hand-picked center? Lyle Sendlein is only a one-year starter. Vince had to get used to him this year, just like he got used to a different center when he came out of Madison H.S., just like he got used to a different center when he became a starter, just like he'll have to get used to someone else next year. He's had multiple centers at Texas. Is this really an issue?

Making only the throws he wants? Come on...Does anyone in their right mind really believe that's gonna happen? Any scout who lets something like that occur should be terminated post-haste.

Sigh. Honestly, I'm done arguing with you Young apologists. You're right: No team will even think about his agent saying that the reason Young isn't throwing at the combine is because of unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers. Won't have even the tiniest effect on their evaluation. How could I ever doubt you.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Question for anyone...

How can Vince Young help himself by throwing at the combine?

He can't, he can only hurt himself. However, he is hurting himself more than other top talents that don't work out at the combine because:A) He said he would, for some strange reason

B) He did throw at the Skills Competition, a very poor idea

C) His "agent" (and I use that term loosely) was quoted as saying that Young wasn't throwing at the Combine because of "unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers"



You and Hawk can defend him all you want and you may be correct about his NFL success in the end. But the 3 things above are negatively affecting his draft status and perception.

Can you show me a link to any scout or NFL teams that believes that this has negatively affected his draft status and perception? I'm not saying that there aren't some, but the only places I have seen that are on forums like this not from scouts or NFL teams. Would you say that the things that you mention have dropped him 3, 5, 10, 20 places? Has he dropped out of the 1st round because he won't throw at the combine but he will throw at the Texas pro day and for selected teams? How many draft positions has this supposed negativity cost him?

I will say that I think he would have been better by saying he would not throw at the combine from day one. But I have an really, really hard time believeing that a team like the Titans were thinking that they would maybe draft him at #3, they then heard him change his mind on throwing at the combine and decided they were no longer very interested in him and dropped him to #10 on their charts.

So now I have to preface all my remarks with "in my opinion"? Ok, here goes:

In my opinion, any decent NFL front office will view the 3 items I listed above with a critical eye when evaluating Vince Young.

In my opinion, there will be at least one team that says "Looking at the film, I have some questions about his throwing motion and his ability to take a snap under center. I saw him at the UT Pro Day with hand picked WRs, a hand picked Center and only making the throws he wanted, but I didn't get to see what he was like out of his element at an All-Star game or the Combine. The best we've got is the Skills Competition in which he looked all right, but not fantastic. And he didn't take snaps from center in that. So you know, what? Let's drop him from 3 to 5 Overall on our draft board."

In my opinion, you are a blind homer if you discount that possibility.

Hand-picked WRs? You mean the ones who couldn't even run the right routes until Vince got 'em to do extra workouts & get in sync? The difference between those WRs this year vs last is like night & day. If he'd have come out last year, he'd want to use someone else's WRs. The only reason that's not the case today is because he pushed those guys to be better. Hand-picked center? Lyle Sendlein is only a one-year starter. Vince had to get used to him this year, just like he got used to a different center when he came out of Madison H.S., just like he got used to a different center when he became a starter, just like he'll have to get used to someone else next year. He's had multiple centers at Texas. Is this really an issue?

Making only the throws he wants? Come on...Does anyone in their right mind really believe that's gonna happen? Any scout who lets something like that occur should be terminated post-haste.

Sigh. Honestly, I'm done arguing with you Young apologists. You're right: No team will even think about his agent saying that the reason Young isn't throwing at the combine is because of unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers. Won't have even the tiniest effect on their evaluation. How could I ever doubt you.

[sigh]Are you changing the subject? That's clearly not what I was addressing. However, if (when) Leinart doesn't throw at the combine, it will be for the same reasons.-He truly can't help himself by doing so. He could only hurt his stock.

-He'd be throwing to unfamiliar wrs in an unfamiliar setting.

-He can always throw at SC's pro day.

Why is there no uproar over Leinart not throwing? Because it's not a big deal. QBs do this all the time. The qbs who are throwing at the combine are the ones who are trying to move up in stature and feel they have more to gain than they do to lose. Do you honestly think Vince Young fits that description?

So why is it that Young has to justify correcting a bad call (saying he would throw at the combine) and going with the right one?

Not throwing at the combine is the right call, not the wrong one. [/sigh]

P.S. You seem to also be insinuating that we VY "apologists" are touting the notion that Young will just roll through the NFL, even as a rookie, like a rolling ball of butcher knives, never even encountering a challenge. Nothing could be futher from the truth. We know he'll suffer growing pains going through the adjustments, but we also know he's the right man to work hard on and off the field and to lead your team like no qb to come out of the college ranks in quite a while.

As far as his agent selection or his decision to play in the Quarterback Challenge, who knows, but I doubt any team who is seriously considering taking him is gonna look harder at those things than they will his interviews, measurements, Wunderlich, and Pro Day performance.

 

[gman8343]

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

Leinart ran a pro style offense at USC, while Young ran an offense that is never run in the NFL, that could not succeed in the NFL.

Young will probably be awesome, but there are valid questions surrounding him. There will also probably be a longer learning curve than Leinart as he adapts to the NFL (though a year or two behind a guy like McNair could do wonders for him).

I think he'll be succesful, but he's a riskier pick than Leinhart IMO.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

Leinart ran a pro style offense at USC, while Young ran an offense that is never run in the NFL, that could not succeed in the NFL.

Young will probably be awesome, but there are valid questions surrounding him. There will also probably be a longer learning curve than Leinart as he adapts to the NFL (though a year or two behind a guy like McNair could do wonders for him).

I think he'll be succesful, but he's a riskier pick than Leinhart IMO.

True, yet are there no valid questions surrounding Leinart?

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

So is Vince Young the first player ever to do this?Again I ask:

So why is it that Young has to justify correcting a bad call (saying he would throw at the combine) and going with the right one?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

Leinart ran a pro style offense at USC, while Young ran an offense that is never run in the NFL, that could not succeed in the NFL.

Young will probably be awesome, but there are valid questions surrounding him. There will also probably be a longer learning curve than Leinart as he adapts to the NFL (though a year or two behind a guy like McNair could do wonders for him).

I think he'll be succesful, but he's a riskier pick than Leinhart IMO.

True, yet are there no valid questions surrounding Leinart?

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

So is Vince Young the first player ever to do this?Again I ask:

So why is it that Young has to justify correcting a bad call (saying he would throw at the combine) and going with the right one?

Because he threw once already at the Skills Competition so I would guess that teams are wondering if he has something to hide. And instead of doing what any smart agent would do, which is come up with some BS excuse about why he isn't throwing at the combine, Young's agent was quoted as saying that it was because of unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers. If you don't see the difference there, I can't help you. You sound just like the USC fans last year who said that Leinart returning for his senior year instead of going out on top as the #1 pick would not be considered at all by teams. Geez, be objective.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

Leinart ran a pro style offense at USC, while Young ran an offense that is never run in the NFL, that could not succeed in the NFL.

Young will probably be awesome, but there are valid questions surrounding him. There will also probably be a longer learning curve than Leinart as he adapts to the NFL (though a year or two behind a guy like McNair could do wonders for him).

I think he'll be succesful, but he's a riskier pick than Leinhart IMO.

True, yet are there no valid questions surrounding Leinart?

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

So is Vince Young the first player ever to do this?Again I ask:

So why is it that Young has to justify correcting a bad call (saying he would throw at the combine) and going with the right one?

Because he threw once already at the Skills Competition so I would guess that teams are wondering if he has something to hide. And instead of doing what any smart agent would do, which is come up with some BS excuse about why he isn't throwing at the combine, Young's agent was quoted as saying that it was because of unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers. If you don't see the difference there, I can't help you. You sound just like the USC fans last year who said that Leinart returning for his senior year instead of going out on top as the #1 pick would not be considered at all by teams. Geez, be objective.

So to you, his having already come out and thrown in public, on TV, and winning the competition, is an indication that he has something to hide. Spin is a helluva drug.That's just bizarre.

It's not like he's not gonna throw. He's just gonna throw (for all those same scouts) in Austin rather than at the combine.

As for Leinart, while very smart and accurate, he has big questions regarding arm strength and mobility. If he goes to a team that can't protect, which he very likely will, he could get killed.

I'm not gonna question his decision to stay, just like I won't question Young's decision to go. That's very personal, with factors we're not aware of coming into play. It's not all football. It's life.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

Leinart ran a pro style offense at USC, while Young ran an offense that is never run in the NFL, that could not succeed in the NFL.

Young will probably be awesome, but there are valid questions surrounding him. There will also probably be a longer learning curve than Leinart as he adapts to the NFL (though a year or two behind a guy like McNair could do wonders for him).

I think he'll be succesful, but he's a riskier pick than Leinhart IMO.

True, yet are there no valid questions surrounding Leinart?

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

So is Vince Young the first player ever to do this?Again I ask:

So why is it that Young has to justify correcting a bad call (saying he would throw at the combine) and going with the right one?

Because he threw once already at the Skills Competition so I would guess that teams are wondering if he has something to hide. And instead of doing what any smart agent would do, which is come up with some BS excuse about why he isn't throwing at the combine, Young's agent was quoted as saying that it was because of unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers. If you don't see the difference there, I can't help you. You sound just like the USC fans last year who said that Leinart returning for his senior year instead of going out on top as the #1 pick would not be considered at all by teams. Geez, be objective.

Besides, you're still not making sense. I'm asking why he has to justify making the correct decision. Nobody was screaming for him to justify why he was gonna throw at the combine, which was the wrong move. Now he's correcting that, and it has to be justified, and somehow he's shady or "hiding something". Stupid.Kiper, when Cowherd was practically begging for someone to back up his idiotic whining about VY not throwing at the combine, said not throwing was absolutely the right move...even with the reversal. He also said all the NFL GMs and scouts he'd talked to agreed....but I'm sure you & Colin know better than Mel.

 

[Jason Wood]

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

Leinart ran a pro style offense at USC, while Young ran an offense that is never run in the NFL, that could not succeed in the NFL.

Young will probably be awesome, but there are valid questions surrounding him. There will also probably be a longer learning curve than Leinart as he adapts to the NFL (though a year or two behind a guy like McNair could do wonders for him).

I think he'll be succesful, but he's a riskier pick than Leinhart IMO.

True, yet are there no valid questions surrounding Leinart?

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

So is Vince Young the first player ever to do this?Again I ask:

So why is it that Young has to justify correcting a bad call (saying he would throw at the combine) and going with the right one?

Because he threw once already at the Skills Competition so I would guess that teams are wondering if he has something to hide. And instead of doing what any smart agent would do, which is come up with some BS excuse about why he isn't throwing at the combine, Young's agent was quoted as saying that it was because of unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers. If you don't see the difference there, I can't help you. You sound just like the USC fans last year who said that Leinart returning for his senior year instead of going out on top as the #1 pick would not be considered at all by teams. Geez, be objective.

Besides, you're still not making sense. I'm asking why he has to justify making the correct decision. Nobody was screaming for him to justify why he was gonna throw at the combine, which was the wrong move. Now he's correcting that, and it has to be justified, and somehow he's shady or "hiding something". Stupid.Kiper, when Cowherd was practically begging for someone to back up his idiotic whining about VY not throwing at the combine, said not throwing was absolutely the right move...even with the reversal. He also said all the NFL GMs and scouts he'd talked to agreed....but I'm sure you & Colin know better than Mel.

Kiper and Mike Mayock both dismissed this as a non issue. Not sure why people are trying to make a mountain out of a proverbial molehill here. VY will HAVE to throw for scouts, the questions will be answered [or not] at that time, just as I'm sure Leinart and probably Cutler will only throw on their private workouts.

 

[Colin Dowling]

This thread is awesome. It's like a big game of "telephone", only everyone keeps thinking they know something that no one else knows.

1. Many top QBs avoid the combine.

2. It was in bad form for VY to say he'd throw and then back out.

3. Come APril 29th, no team is going to say, "We would select him if only we'd gotten to see him throw at the combine....but we didn't so we're gonna pass..."

4. VY has had a handful of bad PR moments in recent weeks, including the basketball game and forgetting his suit for the White House visit. However, while we pick all of it to death, none of these things has anything to do with football, and I expect their affect on his status to be minimal.

5. HIs contract/representation are a non-issue. He has FANTASTIC legal representation (the lawyer who won the big tobacco case here in Texas).

 

[ConstruxBoy]

This thread is awesome. It's like a big game of "telephone", only everyone keeps thinking they know something that no one else knows.

1. Many top QBs avoid the combine.

2. It was in bad form for VY to say he'd throw and then back out.

3. Come APril 29th, no team is going to say, "We would select him if only we'd gotten to see him throw at the combine....but we didn't so we're gonna pass..."

4. VY has had a handful of bad PR moments in recent weeks, including the basketball game and forgetting his suit for the White House visit. However, while we pick all of it to death, none of these things has anything to do with football, and I expect their affect on his status to be minimal.

5. HIs contract/representation are a non-issue. He has FANTASTIC legal representation (the lawyer who won the big tobacco case here in Texas).

Colin,I think we differ on #4 here. I believe that some folks are saying it will have ZERO effect and for me to suggest that it might have an effect is ludicrous. I agree that it will be minimal and I agree that ESPN, et al. are making a story here because that seems to be their job. But saying that it is not possible that it will have any effect on any of the 32 teams is silly and probably incorrect. I still think that Leinart decision to return may have some effect on his standing in the eyes of at least one team. It may be semantics, but I'm not going to let someone who is clearly a big Vince Young fan try to say that it will have no effect at all. It might.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

Leinart ran a pro style offense at USC, while Young ran an offense that is never run in the NFL, that could not succeed in the NFL.

Young will probably be awesome, but there are valid questions surrounding him. There will also probably be a longer learning curve than Leinart as he adapts to the NFL (though a year or two behind a guy like McNair could do wonders for him).

I think he'll be succesful, but he's a riskier pick than Leinhart IMO.

True, yet are there no valid questions surrounding Leinart?

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

So is Vince Young the first player ever to do this?Again I ask:

So why is it that Young has to justify correcting a bad call (saying he would throw at the combine) and going with the right one?

Because he threw once already at the Skills Competition so I would guess that teams are wondering if he has something to hide. And instead of doing what any smart agent would do, which is come up with some BS excuse about why he isn't throwing at the combine, Young's agent was quoted as saying that it was because of unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers. If you don't see the difference there, I can't help you. You sound just like the USC fans last year who said that Leinart returning for his senior year instead of going out on top as the #1 pick would not be considered at all by teams. Geez, be objective.

Besides, you're still not making sense. I'm asking why he has to justify making the correct decision. Nobody was screaming for him to justify why he was gonna throw at the combine, which was the wrong move. Now he's correcting that, and it has to be justified, and somehow he's shady or "hiding something". Stupid.Kiper, when Cowherd was practically begging for someone to back up his idiotic whining about VY not throwing at the combine, said not throwing was absolutely the right move...even with the reversal. He also said all the NFL GMs and scouts he'd talked to agreed....but I'm sure you & Colin know better than Mel.

Kiper and Mike Mayock both dismissed this as a non issue. Not sure why people are trying to make a mountain out of a proverbial molehill here. VY will HAVE to throw for scouts, the questions will be answered [or not] at that time, just as I'm sure Leinart and probably Cutler will only throw on their private workouts.

Actually, I thought I heard that Cutler WAS going to throw at the combine?

 

[the hairy scotsman]

This thread is awesome.  It's like a big game of "telephone", only everyone keeps thinking they know something that no one else knows.

1. Many top QBs avoid the combine.

2. It was in bad form for VY to say he'd throw and then back out. 

3. Come APril 29th, no team is going to say, "We would select him if only we'd gotten to see him throw at the combine....but we didn't so we're gonna pass..."

4. VY has had a handful of bad PR moments in recent weeks, including the basketball game and forgetting his suit for the White House visit.  However, while we pick all of it to death, none of these things has anything to do with football, and I expect their affect on his status to be minimal.

5. HIs contract/representation are a non-issue.  He has FANTASTIC legal representation (the lawyer who won the big tobacco case here in Texas).

1. yes2. yes. It looked disorganized at best. But to try to find some hidden meaning in it, like many seem to be doing, is just silly. [pure speculation]Knowing VY's nature and knowing the nature of agents, if I HAD to speculate, here's my best guess at what went down: Someone asked young if he was gonna throw at the combine. Vince, being the ultra-competitive-cat-who-thinks-he-can-do-anything that he is, said "Hell...why not?". Then his agents started bending his ear as to why he shouldn't do it, how the press and everyone will just be salivating, waiting for one bad throw that they can rip him apart over in the papers...how he can't help his draft status, only maintain or hurt it. Then he finally gave in and changed the call. [/pure speculation]

3. Exactly. Anyone who's interested in him in the first place will see him throw in Austin.

4. Basketball game: What were they thinking?...but it's over now. The suit was in the bags that the airline lost. As many suits as that dude has (he's a real clothes horse), he didn't forget. His uncle was supposed to go get him a replacement and couldn't get it in time for the start. Vince was embarrassed and hiding, and only came out when the President prodded him and made fun of him. Embarrassing, for sure.

5. Jamail reviews the contracts of several Texas players who go on to the league to make sure there is nothing they wouldn't like. He doesn't really help in the negotiations or structuring, however.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

This thread is awesome.  It's like a big game of "telephone", only everyone keeps thinking they know something that no one else knows.

1. Many top QBs avoid the combine.

2. It was in bad form for VY to say he'd throw and then back out. 

3. Come APril 29th, no team is going to say, "We would select him if only we'd gotten to see him throw at the combine....but we didn't so we're gonna pass..."

4. VY has had a handful of bad PR moments in recent weeks, including the basketball game and forgetting his suit for the White House visit.  However, while we pick all of it to death, none of these things has anything to do with football, and I expect their affect on his status to be minimal.

5. HIs contract/representation are a non-issue.  He has FANTASTIC legal representation (the lawyer who won the big tobacco case here in Texas).

Colin,I think we differ on #4 here. I believe that some folks are saying it will have ZERO effect and for me to suggest that it might have an effect is ludicrous. I agree that it will be minimal and I agree that ESPN, et al. are making a story here because that seems to be their job. But saying that it is not possible that it will have any effect on any of the 32 teams is silly and probably incorrect. I still think that Leinart decision to return may have some effect on his standing in the eyes of at least one team. It may be semantics, but I'm not going to let someone who is clearly a big Vince Young fan try to say that it will have no effect at all. It might.

Show me where I said that. That's your presumption based on your own biases.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

FWIW, Justice at the Houston Chronicle has a "inner-office" source that says the Texans are thinking of taking Young and keeping Carr.

Who knows how reliable this source is, as they seem to be sending up trial balloons almost daily, but this would be hell for Carr.

 

[Peep It Yo!]

When all is said and done...who will be the better pro...Young or Leinart? This is not a trick question....I am really looking for opinions. Especially from Hairy Scotsman.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

This thread is awesome. It's like a big game of "telephone", only everyone keeps thinking they know something that no one else knows.

1. Many top QBs avoid the combine.

2. It was in bad form for VY to say he'd throw and then back out.

3. Come APril 29th, no team is going to say, "We would select him if only we'd gotten to see him throw at the combine....but we didn't so we're gonna pass..."

4. VY has had a handful of bad PR moments in recent weeks, including the basketball game and forgetting his suit for the White House visit. However, while we pick all of it to death, none of these things has anything to do with football, and I expect their affect on his status to be minimal.

5. HIs contract/representation are a non-issue. He has FANTASTIC legal representation (the lawyer who won the big tobacco case here in Texas).

Colin,I think we differ on #4 here. I believe that some folks are saying it will have ZERO effect and for me to suggest that it might have an effect is ludicrous. I agree that it will be minimal and I agree that ESPN, et al. are making a story here because that seems to be their job. But saying that it is not possible that it will have any effect on any of the 32 teams is silly and probably incorrect. I still think that Leinart decision to return may have some effect on his standing in the eyes of at least one team. It may be semantics, but I'm not going to let someone who is clearly a big Vince Young fan try to say that it will have no effect at all. It might.

Show me where I said that. That's your presumption based on your own biases.

I wasn't talking to you.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

When all is said and done...who will be the better pro...Young or Leinart? This is not a trick question....I am really looking for opinions. Especially from Hairy Scotsman.

Too close to call, IMHO. I try to compare them to other QBs and for Leinart I would use Palmer and for Young I would use Culpepper. Both are excellent QBs whom have had success, but were probably more successful because of the offenses they were drafted into. If Leinart and Young get drafted into offensive systems that fit their strengths, or teams that will adjust their system to them, they'll both be excellent. However, since there are probably more existing systems that fit Leinart than fit Young, it's probably more likely that Leinart goes to a team where he can be successful.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

When all is said and done...who will be the better pro...Young or Leinart? This is not a trick question....I am really looking for opinions. Especially from Hairy Scotsman.

I honestly think they will both be very good and will both be upper echelon starters. Who ends up being better is hard to tell at this point. It will probably depend on where they end up and who stays healthiest. I think Vince has a better chance to remain healthy in the NFL, as he has better mobility and both qbs will more than likely be going to teams who can't protect the passer well. That may sound like a copout, but that's the way it usually works. If all things remain equal, it's hard to say, because they're just so different. Young is bigger, has a better arm, and is more mobile. I think he'll be more durable in the league in general. He also has the funky release, which if his nfl coaches so choose, they can work on. I say he gets it there on time and pretty accurately. Work on glaring footwork issues and maybe "tune up" the stroke, but leave that arm alone for the most part. Leinart is more accurate. He's tough, too. I think they both read Ds well. The thing about Young is that Ds will always have to account for HIM, not just where he's gonna throw it...which creates mismatches. His leadership qualities are off the charts too. He just makes everyone around him better. Gotta give the edge here, too, to Young, but I think they both have the potential to be outstanding pros.

Contrary to what many of you believe, I don't see Vince Young following the same path of a Micheal Vick in terms of offensive style. Throughout most of the season this year, he stayed in the pocket and only ran when pass plays broke down. This was a sharp departure to the previous year, when it was Vince in the zone-read left, then Benson zone-read right, with a pass play off the zone-read every so often. He made a conscious effort to stay in the pocket more, and it led to him being #1 nationally in pass efficiency, and the first ever 3000/1000 player.

Yo...understandably, you'll probably want to tell me why Leinart will be better, right?

 

[the hairy scotsman]

When all is said and done...who will be the better pro...Young or Leinart? This is not a trick question....I am really looking for opinions. Especially from Hairy Scotsman.

Too close to call, IMHO. I try to compare them to other QBs and for Leinart I would use Palmer and for Young I would use Culpepper. Both are excellent QBs whom have had success, but were probably more successful because of the offenses they were drafted into. If Leinart and Young get drafted into offensive systems that fit their strengths, or teams that will adjust their system to them, they'll both be excellent. However, since there are probably more existing systems that fit Leinart than fit Young, it's probably more likely that Leinart goes to a team where he can be successful.

To me, Young's style is far more controlled than Culpepper. I'd say though there's nobody who really fits, I'd liken him most to Cunningham. Actually, one guy said he reminded him of a bigger, faster Staubach, which struck me as odd at first, but when you think about it, is pretty much dead on.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

When all is said and done...who will be the better pro...Young or Leinart? This is not a trick question....I am really looking for opinions. Especially from Hairy Scotsman.

Too close to call, IMHO. I try to compare them to other QBs and for Leinart I would use Palmer and for Young I would use Culpepper. Both are excellent QBs whom have had success, but were probably more successful because of the offenses they were drafted into. If Leinart and Young get drafted into offensive systems that fit their strengths, or teams that will adjust their system to them, they'll both be excellent. However, since there are probably more existing systems that fit Leinart than fit Young, it's probably more likely that Leinart goes to a team where he can be successful.

To me, Young's style is far more controlled than Culpepper. I'd say though there's nobody who really fits, I'd liken him most to Cunningham. Actually, one guy said he reminded him of a bigger, faster Staubach, which struck me as odd at first, but when you think about it, is pretty much dead on.

Good call, Cunningham may be a better fit. Weren't there some questions about his accuracy and delivery when he came into the NFL?

 

[the hairy scotsman]

When all is said and done...who will be the better pro...Young or Leinart? This is not a trick question....I am really looking for opinions. Especially from Hairy Scotsman.

Too close to call, IMHO. I try to compare them to other QBs and for Leinart I would use Palmer and for Young I would use Culpepper. Both are excellent QBs whom have had success, but were probably more successful because of the offenses they were drafted into. If Leinart and Young get drafted into offensive systems that fit their strengths, or teams that will adjust their system to them, they'll both be excellent. However, since there are probably more existing systems that fit Leinart than fit Young, it's probably more likely that Leinart goes to a team where he can be successful.

To me, Young's style is far more controlled than Culpepper. I'd say though there's nobody who really fits, I'd liken him most to Cunningham. Actually, one guy said he reminded him of a bigger, faster Staubach, which struck me as odd at first, but when you think about it, is pretty much dead on.

Good call, Cunningham may be a better fit. Weren't there some questions about his accuracy and delivery when he came into the NFL?

He was considered a wild-card, and they tried to shoe-horn him into the pocket, which, of course, proved a dismal failure. When they set him free, he shined. This is very similar to what happened to Young at Texas early on, until he went to the coaches and said basically, "let me be me". They did, and built the offense around that, instead of rebuilding him to fit the offense. The rest is history. A big difference between Randall and Vince is that Randall took a LOT of big open-field shots. Vince, if you'll notice, is rarely running full speed when running with the ball, unless he's really in the clear. He scans the field and sets up his runs incredibly well, gets what he can, then usually gets OB. He rarely takes a decent hit when running. In fact, he rarely gets hit at all. As Texas fans, we worried more about his health when standing in the pocket than when he ran.

 

[Hawk]

When all is said and done...who will be the better pro...Young or Leinart? This is not a trick question....I am really looking for opinions. Especially from Hairy Scotsman.

From what I've seen of both, I think they will both do great things in the NFL. I can't think of a convincing reason why either would not have success. As to which will be better...it totally depends on where they end up and the coaches and surrounding talent, so there are too many unknown variables to say. If I'm guessing based on current information, athough I'm clearly biased so take it witha grain of salt, I would give the edge to Young because he has the added dimension of being a dangerous running threat. Eventually, OVER TIME, I think Young has the mental and physical abilities to be as good a drop back passer as Leinart, or nearly as good, but Leinart will never be able to run like Vince, so for that reason, I give a slight edge to Vince in the long run.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

When all is said and done...who will be the better pro...Young or Leinart? This is not a trick question....I am really looking for opinions. Especially from Hairy Scotsman.

From what I've seen of both, I think they will both do great things in the NFL. I can't think of a convincing reason why either would not have success. As to which will be better...it totally depends on where they end up and the coaches and surrounding talent, so there are too many unknown variables to say. If I'm guessing based on current information, athough I'm clearly biased so take it witha grain of salt, I would give the edge to Young because he has the added dimension of being a dangerous running threat. Eventually, OVER TIME, I think Young has the mental and physical abilities to be as good a drop back passer as Leinart, or nearly as good, but Leinart will never be able to run like Vince, so for that reason, I give a slight edge to Vince in the long run.

 

[Jason Wood]

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

Leinart ran a pro style offense at USC, while Young ran an offense that is never run in the NFL, that could not succeed in the NFL.

Young will probably be awesome, but there are valid questions surrounding him. There will also probably be a longer learning curve than Leinart as he adapts to the NFL (though a year or two behind a guy like McNair could do wonders for him).

I think he'll be succesful, but he's a riskier pick than Leinhart IMO.

True, yet are there no valid questions surrounding Leinart?

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

So is Vince Young the first player ever to do this?Again I ask:

So why is it that Young has to justify correcting a bad call (saying he would throw at the combine) and going with the right one?

Because he threw once already at the Skills Competition so I would guess that teams are wondering if he has something to hide. And instead of doing what any smart agent would do, which is come up with some BS excuse about why he isn't throwing at the combine, Young's agent was quoted as saying that it was because of unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers. If you don't see the difference there, I can't help you. You sound just like the USC fans last year who said that Leinart returning for his senior year instead of going out on top as the #1 pick would not be considered at all by teams. Geez, be objective.

Besides, you're still not making sense. I'm asking why he has to justify making the correct decision. Nobody was screaming for him to justify why he was gonna throw at the combine, which was the wrong move. Now he's correcting that, and it has to be justified, and somehow he's shady or "hiding something". Stupid.Kiper, when Cowherd was practically begging for someone to back up his idiotic whining about VY not throwing at the combine, said not throwing was absolutely the right move...even with the reversal. He also said all the NFL GMs and scouts he'd talked to agreed....but I'm sure you & Colin know better than Mel.

Kiper and Mike Mayock both dismissed this as a non issue. Not sure why people are trying to make a mountain out of a proverbial molehill here. VY will HAVE to throw for scouts, the questions will be answered [or not] at that time, just as I'm sure Leinart and probably Cutler will only throw on their private workouts.

Actually, I thought I heard that Cutler WAS going to throw at the combine?

Todd McShay of Scouts Inc. mentioned that very thing today in a column on ESPN; I didn't realize Cutler already agreed to throw at the Combine. For those keeping score, McShay [like Kiper and Mayock] thinks VY's decision not to throw is a) the right one and b) a non-event.

 

[Peep It Yo!]

Good points thus far. Of course, bias plays a part in these opinions as you all seem to be Texas fans. That being said, I would probably pick Leinart because I am a homer. However, to see VY up close in the Rose Bowl was amazing. He is a freakish athletic specimen. I don't think he will be a great NFL qb, but there is no questioning his athleticism and drive.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

to see VY up close in the Rose Bowl was amazing.

Lucky bastage.

 

[Peep It Yo!]

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

Leinart ran a pro style offense at USC, while Young ran an offense that is never run in the NFL, that could not succeed in the NFL.

Young will probably be awesome, but there are valid questions surrounding him. There will also probably be a longer learning curve than Leinart as he adapts to the NFL (though a year or two behind a guy like McNair could do wonders for him).

I think he'll be succesful, but he's a riskier pick than Leinhart IMO.

True, yet are there no valid questions surrounding Leinart?

Leinart never said he was going to throw at the combine only to change his mind.

So is Vince Young the first player ever to do this?Again I ask:

So why is it that Young has to justify correcting a bad call (saying he would throw at the combine) and going with the right one?

Because he threw once already at the Skills Competition so I would guess that teams are wondering if he has something to hide. And instead of doing what any smart agent would do, which is come up with some BS excuse about why he isn't throwing at the combine, Young's agent was quoted as saying that it was because of unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers. If you don't see the difference there, I can't help you. You sound just like the USC fans last year who said that Leinart returning for his senior year instead of going out on top as the #1 pick would not be considered at all by teams. Geez, be objective.

Besides, you're still not making sense. I'm asking why he has to justify making the correct decision. Nobody was screaming for him to justify why he was gonna throw at the combine, which was the wrong move. Now he's correcting that, and it has to be justified, and somehow he's shady or "hiding something". Stupid.Kiper, when Cowherd was practically begging for someone to back up his idiotic whining about VY not throwing at the combine, said not throwing was absolutely the right move...even with the reversal. He also said all the NFL GMs and scouts he'd talked to agreed....but I'm sure you & Colin know better than Mel.

Kiper and Mike Mayock both dismissed this as a non issue. Not sure why people are trying to make a mountain out of a proverbial molehill here. VY will HAVE to throw for scouts, the questions will be answered [or not] at that time, just as I'm sure Leinart and probably Cutler will only throw on their private workouts.

Actually, I thought I heard that Cutler WAS going to throw at the combine?

Todd McShay of Scouts Inc. mentioned that very thing today in a column on ESPN; I didn't realize Cutler already agreed to throw at the Combine. For those keeping score, McShay [like Kiper and Mayock] thinks VY's decision not to throw is a) the right one and b) a non-event.

If I was VY, I wouldn't throw at the combine. It can do nothing but hurt him.

 

[Frills]

He wore a great suit to the White House

 

[the hairy scotsman]

He wore a great suit to the White House

Covered.

 

[Hawk]

Good points thus far. Of course, bias plays a part in these opinions as you all seem to be Texas fans. That being said, I would probably pick Leinart because I am a homer. However, to see VY up close in the Rose Bowl was amazing. He is a freakish athletic specimen. I don't think he will be a great NFL qb, but there is no questioning his athleticism and drive.

Can you be more specific? I'm interested in hearing why you think that.

 

[Bevo]

Question for anyone...

How can Vince Young help himself by throwing at the combine?

He can't, he can only hurt himself. However, he is hurting himself more than other top talents that don't work out at the combine because:A) He said he would, for some strange reason

B) He did throw at the Skills Competition, a very poor idea

C) His "agent" (and I use that term loosely) was quoted as saying that Young wasn't throwing at the Combine because of "unfamiliar surroundings and unfamiliar receivers"



You and Hawk can defend him all you want and you may be correct about his NFL success in the end. But the 3 things above are negatively affecting his draft status and perception.

Can you show me a link to any scout or NFL teams that believes that this has negatively affected his draft status and perception? I'm not saying that there aren't some, but the only places I have seen that are on forums like this not from scouts or NFL teams. Would you say that the things that you mention have dropped him 3, 5, 10, 20 places? Has he dropped out of the 1st round because he won't throw at the combine but he will throw at the Texas pro day and for selected teams? How many draft positions has this supposed negativity cost him?

I will say that I think he would have been better by saying he would not throw at the combine from day one. But I have an really, really hard time believeing that a team like the Titans were thinking that they would maybe draft him at #3, they then heard him change his mind on throwing at the combine and decided they were no longer very interested in him and dropped him to #10 on their charts.

So now I have to preface all my remarks with "in my opinion"? Ok, here goes:

In my opinion, any decent NFL front office will view the 3 items I listed above with a critical eye when evaluating Vince Young.

In my opinion, there will be at least one team that says "Looking at the film, I have some questions about his throwing motion and his ability to take a snap under center. I saw him at the UT Pro Day with hand picked WRs, a hand picked Center and only making the throws he wanted, but I didn't get to see what he was like out of his element at an All-Star game or the Combine. The best we've got is the Skills Competition in which he looked all right, but not fantastic. And he didn't take snaps from center in that. So you know, what? Let's drop him from 3 to 5 Overall on our draft board."

In my opinion, you are a blind homer if you discount that possibility.

And in my opinion not a single one of the top 5 teams in the draft will drop him even one postion on their draft board from where they had after he announced for any or all of the reasons you state. Those are all nits and even combined are just not enough to drop him even one slot on any of those teams draft boards. Homer or not I am very confident in that position. Could they drop him a tiny bit on their total ranking? Sure, but unless he is teetering on the very edge of say 3 and 4 it just isn't going to be enough to make him drop a spot and in the end that is all that really matters.And unless you can show me that you have some profound insider knowledge I am going to say that my opinion is every bit as good as yours; homer or not.

 

[Bevo]

This thread is awesome. It's like a big game of "telephone", only everyone keeps thinking they know something that no one else knows.

1. Many top QBs avoid the combine.

2. It was in bad form for VY to say he'd throw and then back out.

3. Come APril 29th, no team is going to say, "We would select him if only we'd gotten to see him throw at the combine....but we didn't so we're gonna pass..."

4. VY has had a handful of bad PR moments in recent weeks, including the basketball game and forgetting his suit for the White House visit. However, while we pick all of it to death, none of these things has anything to do with football, and I expect their affect on his status to be minimal.

5. HIs contract/representation are a non-issue. He has FANTASTIC legal representation (the lawyer who won the big tobacco case here in Texas).

Colin,I think we differ on #4 here. I believe that some folks are saying it will have ZERO effect and for me to suggest that it might have an effect is ludicrous. I agree that it will be minimal and I agree that ESPN, et al. are making a story here because that seems to be their job. But saying that it is not possible that it will have any effect on any of the 32 teams is silly and probably incorrect. I still think that Leinart decision to return may have some effect on his standing in the eyes of at least one team. It may be semantics, but I'm not going to let someone who is clearly a big Vince Young fan try to say that it will have no effect at all. It might.

I can only assume that you are referring to me here. I am not saying that it has ZERO effect, I am saying that I don't believe that it has enough effect to drop him even 1 draft position. For example, if the Titans were ready to take him at #3 when he declared for the draft (and I don;t claim to KNOW one way or the other, this is a hypothetical) he has done nothing that would alter that decision to this point, they would still take at #3. That is my opinion, if yours is different so be it; like they say, opinions are like #######s....