Vince Young's Wonderlic (1 Viewer)

[Jason Wood]

Has any other current prospective rookie's wonderlic score been made public yet? I thought these things were A) not ever officially released, and B) are not "official" until the reports are given to the teams at combine's end. What did Cutler and Lienart get?

They have not been made public [nor will they, although many "leak" each and every year].

 

[TheLaw]

Has any other current prospective rookie's wonderlic score been made public yet? I thought these things were A) not ever officially released, and B) are not "official" until the reports are given to the teams at combine's end. What did Cutler and Lienart get?

They have not been made public [nor will they, although many "leak" each and every year].

Right, so this one was "leaked" before it even became his official score, which is what is reported to each team at the end of the combine along with the official 40 times etc. Have ANY other prospective rookies' scored been "leaked" thus far?

 

[Hawk]

I don't doubt that stereotyping can have some affect on the public reaction. If the report had been that Matt Leinart scored a 6, but then it came out it was an error, I think a LOT more people would be willing to believe the 6 was an error than are willing to believe it when it comes to Vince. Somebody please convince me I'm wrong about that.

 

[Jason Wood]

Has any other current prospective rookie's wonderlic score been made public yet? I thought these things were A) not ever officially released, and B) are not "official" until the reports are given to the teams at combine's end. What did Cutler and Lienart get?

They have not been made public [nor will they, although many "leak" each and every year].

Right, so this one was "leaked" before it even became his official score, which is what is reported to each team at the end of the combine along with the official 40 times etc. Have ANY other prospective rookies' scored been "leaked" thus far?

Not sure...also not sure I'm following you on this one TheLaw. Where are you going with it exactly?

 

[AB in DC]

Right, so this one was "leaked" before it even became his official score, which is what is reported to each team at the end of the combine along with the official 40 times etc. Have ANY other prospective rookies' scored been "leaked" thus far?

I'm sure that the NFL clamped down on leaks after VY's score hit the news.

 

[lod2005]

I don't doubt that stereotyping can have some affect on the public reaction. If the report had been that Matt Leinart scored a 6, but then it came out it was an error, I think a LOT more people would be willing to believe the 6 was an error than are willing to believe it when it comes to Vince. Somebody please convince me I'm wrong about that.

Maybe, but the fact is there was no error. Here's the deal. Vince Young takes the test. Vince Young's test is graded and the results show a 6. The NFL looks at it and says, 'That's bad, better recheck that. Geez, it is a 6'. 'What do we do now?'The NFL is so incompetant that they graded a test wrong?...just 1 test wrong? With the wrong answer sheet? The worst scored test? And they didn't check it to see if it was graded wrong? They checked. It was right.

6. Damage control time. Too late.

6.

 

[TheLaw]

Has any other current prospective rookie's wonderlic score been made public yet? I thought these things were A) not ever officially released, and B) are not "official" until the reports are given to the teams at combine's end. What did Cutler and Lienart get?

They have not been made public [nor will they, although many "leak" each and every year].

Right, so this one was "leaked" before it even became his official score, which is what is reported to each team at the end of the combine along with the official 40 times etc. Have ANY other prospective rookies' scored been "leaked" thus far?

Not sure...also not sure I'm following you on this one TheLaw. Where are you going with it exactly?

A few directions. 1) That we do not know how often scoring errors occur if ever;

b) we do not know if players are retested or take tests under different conditions and how each (if all) are reported to the teams normally;

iii) people are seemingly looking to knock VY down - why has his score been the only one leaked so far and it is before the teams themselves even get the official score.

 

[BigJim®]

I don't doubt that stereotyping can have some affect on the public reaction. If the report had been that Matt Leinart scored a 6, but then it came out it was an error, I think a LOT more people would be willing to believe the 6 was an error than are willing to believe it when it comes to Vince. Somebody please convince me I'm wrong about that.

So now people who smell a rat are racists? Seriously, this comment is so sickening and over the top that it deserves no response. I hope that isn't where Shick! was going with 'stereotyping' because the people I talk to about how screwy this story is are certainly not racists; they are football enthusiasts and combine fanatics who refresh their computers every 10 seconds to learn the numbers NFL prospects are putting up. They absolutely would react the same if Leinart was rumored to get a 6 on the Wonderlic only to have it mysteriously get brushed under a rug. In fact, they might have reacted even stronger since Leinart has been given more serious consideration as a potential #1 pick than Young.

 

[george]

I'm guessing as others did that he threatened them with an ADA lawsuit. I found this info online regarding the Wonderlic Basic Skills Test (WBST).

TEST ADMINISTRATION

Untimed testing

The WBST can be administered untimed. Also students who request reasonable accommodations under the American Disabilities Act (ADA) guidelines may take the test untimed. A circumstance, according to the User’s Manual for the Wonderlic Basic Skills Test, that may prevent timed assessment from providing a fair assessment of skills include high test anxiety. Procedures for administering the test untimed are the same as for the timed test, except for the time limit. The User’s Manual indicates that most students taking the test untimed will work for an additional 15-20 minutes. After 20 additional minutes, it is suggested that teachers remind students that it is not necessary to answer all the questions on the test.

Re-testing

If interruptions, illness, distractions, or other appropriate reasons for re-testing exist, the WBST alternate form can be given. The minimum suggested break for testing between alternate forms is one-half hour.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

I'm guessing as others did that he threatened them with an ADA lawsuit. I found this info online regarding the Wonderlic Basic Skills Test (WBST).

TEST ADMINISTRATION

Untimed testing

The WBST can be administered untimed. Also students who request reasonable accommodations under the American Disabilities Act (ADA) guidelines may take the test untimed. A circumstance, according to the User’s Manual for the Wonderlic Basic Skills Test, that may prevent timed assessment from providing a fair assessment of skills include high test anxiety. Procedures for administering the test untimed are the same as for the timed test, except for the time limit. The User’s Manual indicates that most students taking the test untimed will work for an additional 15-20 minutes. After 20 additional minutes, it is suggested that teachers remind students that it is not necessary to answer all the questions on the test.

Re-testing

If interruptions, illness, distractions, or other appropriate reasons for re-testing exist, the WBST alternate form can be given. The minimum suggested break for testing between alternate forms is one-half hour.

Bingo. Oh course, don't expect anyone to pay attention.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Wood, I respect what you're saying, but it is possible that there might just have been a mistake about his score.  6 is too low to even be credible.  Mack Brown was asked about it at his press conference today (the press conference was about spring practice that opened today), his response was interesting:

"Q: Can you talk about Vince Young's situation this weekend at the combine with all of the rumors that were floating around?

A: Number one, let me say that every high profile guy that we've ever had, from the end of the season and the draft, get beaten to death. There's so much scrutiny and it's just the story right now. That's to be anticipated. I told Vince before he left that he needs to understand that he'll be treated more poorly in the next month or two than you've ever been treated because you're so high profile. Secondly, I know for a fact that he didn't make a six on the test because I was told specifically, and I was also told that the test was graded wrong when he took it the first time. Anyone that is reporting that he did that poorly is wrong. Point blank. I called, I asked and I was told that was the truth, so it's unprofessional and it's really, really poor for somebody to be reporting a number that they don't know is factual and I know is not factual when a young guy has so much riding on it in the future.

The other thing I would say about Vince Young is that he just had the highest efficiency rating of any quarterback in the country, we are very complicated with what we do offensively and he's won 30 games and lost two. He also would have graduated last fall with only three hours to take at Texas, where you can't hide an athlete. Vince is very bright. I hate that people had to take a shot like that that's unfair and untrue."

Hey Hawk,I'm rooting for Vince Young, but again, until the NFL explains the situation with clarity and complete openness [which they probably aren't going to do], I'm going to add his intellectual capacity to his risk profile. There's so much information floating around with little confirmation. About the only things that seem clear are he re-took the test and got a 16, and that his first test was scored in error. Yet, no one has addressed why/how the first test was in error and why they simply didn't rescore that test.

And as much as I like Young and think he's a good kid, LOL at Mack Brown saying he's "very bright." A score of 16 [the 2nd time around] is hardly indicative of someone "very bright." He may be more than intelligent enough to run an NFL offense, but "very bright?"

LOL@ anyone who would judge how bright someone is, based on a wonderlic score. Not everyone is a great test taker..

It's an intelligence test, designed explicitly to determine how "bright" someone is...In fact, employers all across the nation rely on the test...from the Wonderlic site itself:

The WPT is a short form intelligence test that measures players' ability to think on their feet, follow directions, and make effective decisions under the pressure of a time clock. It was originally developed in 1937 as a tool to quantify the mental abilities of potential job candidates and today more than 2.5 million job applicants in companies across the nation are given the Wonderlic test as part of the hiring process. The test is especially popular with larger organizations because it's quick and easy to administer and delivers accurate information about candidates' intelligence. "In just twelve minutes, they have quantifiable data about whether candidates can learn new skills, think effectively, and make important decisions under pressure," says Michael Callans, president of Wonderlic Consulting, the Libertyville, IL based publisher of the test.

www.wonderlic.comLike any standardized test it's hardly a complete assessment of someone's overall intellect, but let's not pretend like it's not designed to measure EXACTLY whether or not Vince Young is "very bright" or not.

Again- and I am stubbed by how many people don't get this: you cannot do well on the wonderlic if you can't read quickly. The test does not measure how people "think on their feet, follow directions, and make effective decisions under the pressure of a time clock. It was originally developed in 1937 as a tool to quantify the mental abilities of potential job candidates." First and foremost, it measures how fast you read. You can be anywhere from stupid to genius and not be able to read quickly. So any test that you must read in a timed format that measures intelligence has the ability to skew this information. I am not saying Young is smart. I just think that the group of people here who get self esteem from reading comments and writing pithy replies are ignorant about the multiplicities and layers of intelligence.

Hey weasel,According to the creators AND the thousands of companies and organizations that use the test...it does EXACTLY what you contend it doesn't. There's absolutely no debating that the Wonderlic was designed to test the aforementioned. You are more than entitled to believe it fails in its design, but clearly Wonderlic, the NFL and tens upon thousands of other entities disagree.

Hey Wood-The for the capitals letters on AND- EXACTLY that helps prove your point and your pompousness effectively. Also, there is a reason the NFL gave him a re-test, and that is because he was not correctly tested according to his legal rights.

Let's see if you can follow this:

If I ask you "Is the following true, false or uncertain based on the first two statements being fact: The boy plays baseball. All baseball players wear hats. Therefor, the boy wears a hat."; I am asking you a pure logic question.

If I ask you read that question and give me an answer based on you reading it, I am not only measuring your logical ability but your ability to read. If you had to read that sentence in Swahili, you would probably get it wrong, despite having the no more or less reasoning ability.

If I ask you to read that question, answer it, then read several more in a limited amount of time, I am not only asking you to think quickly, but also read quickly.

For those companies that use it- reading is probably an essential job skill. It is in most jobs. It is not for the NFL. It is a helpful one. Reading a playbook is not the same as reading a legal brief. Making quick decisions on the field is not the same as reading a language quickly and giving a reply.

 

[Jason Wood]

Wood, I respect what you're saying, but it is possible that there might just have been a mistake about his score.  6 is too low to even be credible.  Mack Brown was asked about it at his press conference today (the press conference was about spring practice that opened today), his response was interesting:

"Q: Can you talk about Vince Young's situation this weekend at the combine with all of the rumors that were floating around?

A: Number one, let me say that every high profile guy that we've ever had, from the end of the season and the draft, get beaten to death. There's so much scrutiny and it's just the story right now. That's to be anticipated. I told Vince before he left that he needs to understand that he'll be treated more poorly in the next month or two than you've ever been treated because you're so high profile. Secondly, I know for a fact that he didn't make a six on the test because I was told specifically, and I was also told that the test was graded wrong when he took it the first time. Anyone that is reporting that he did that poorly is wrong. Point blank. I called, I asked and I was told that was the truth, so it's unprofessional and it's really, really poor for somebody to be reporting a number that they don't know is factual and I know is not factual when a young guy has so much riding on it in the future.

The other thing I would say about Vince Young is that he just had the highest efficiency rating of any quarterback in the country, we are very complicated with what we do offensively and he's won 30 games and lost two. He also would have graduated last fall with only three hours to take at Texas, where you can't hide an athlete. Vince is very bright. I hate that people had to take a shot like that that's unfair and untrue."

Hey Hawk,I'm rooting for Vince Young, but again, until the NFL explains the situation with clarity and complete openness [which they probably aren't going to do], I'm going to add his intellectual capacity to his risk profile. There's so much information floating around with little confirmation. About the only things that seem clear are he re-took the test and got a 16, and that his first test was scored in error. Yet, no one has addressed why/how the first test was in error and why they simply didn't rescore that test.

And as much as I like Young and think he's a good kid, LOL at Mack Brown saying he's "very bright." A score of 16 [the 2nd time around] is hardly indicative of someone "very bright." He may be more than intelligent enough to run an NFL offense, but "very bright?"

LOL@ anyone who would judge how bright someone is, based on a wonderlic score. Not everyone is a great test taker..

It's an intelligence test, designed explicitly to determine how "bright" someone is...In fact, employers all across the nation rely on the test...from the Wonderlic site itself:

The WPT is a short form intelligence test that measures players' ability to think on their feet, follow directions, and make effective decisions under the pressure of a time clock. It was originally developed in 1937 as a tool to quantify the mental abilities of potential job candidates and today more than 2.5 million job applicants in companies across the nation are given the Wonderlic test as part of the hiring process. The test is especially popular with larger organizations because it's quick and easy to administer and delivers accurate information about candidates' intelligence. "In just twelve minutes, they have quantifiable data about whether candidates can learn new skills, think effectively, and make important decisions under pressure," says Michael Callans, president of Wonderlic Consulting, the Libertyville, IL based publisher of the test.

www.wonderlic.comLike any standardized test it's hardly a complete assessment of someone's overall intellect, but let's not pretend like it's not designed to measure EXACTLY whether or not Vince Young is "very bright" or not.

Again- and I am stubbed by how many people don't get this: you cannot do well on the wonderlic if you can't read quickly. The test does not measure how people "think on their feet, follow directions, and make effective decisions under the pressure of a time clock. It was originally developed in 1937 as a tool to quantify the mental abilities of potential job candidates." First and foremost, it measures how fast you read. You can be anywhere from stupid to genius and not be able to read quickly. So any test that you must read in a timed format that measures intelligence has the ability to skew this information. I am not saying Young is smart. I just think that the group of people here who get self esteem from reading comments and writing pithy replies are ignorant about the multiplicities and layers of intelligence.

Hey weasel,According to the creators AND the thousands of companies and organizations that use the test...it does EXACTLY what you contend it doesn't. There's absolutely no debating that the Wonderlic was designed to test the aforementioned. You are more than entitled to believe it fails in its design, but clearly Wonderlic, the NFL and tens upon thousands of other entities disagree.

Hey Wood-The for the capitals letters on AND- EXACTLY that helps prove your point and your pompousness effectively. Also, there is a reason the NFL gave him a re-test, and that is because he was not correctly tested according to his legal rights.

Let's see if you can follow this:

If I ask you "Is the following true, false or uncertain based on the first two statements being fact: The boy plays baseball. All baseball players wear hats. Therefor, the boy wears a hat."; I am asking you a pure logic question.

If I ask you read that question and give me an answer based on you reading it, I am not only measuring your logical ability but your ability to read. If you had to read that sentence in Swahili, you would probably get it wrong, despite having the no more or less reasoning ability.

If I ask you to read that question, answer it, then read several more in a limited amount of time, I am not only asking you to think quickly, but also read quickly.

For those companies that use it- reading is probably an essential job skill. It is in most jobs. It is not for the NFL. It is a helpful one. Reading a playbook is not the same as reading a legal brief. Making quick decisions on the field is not the same as reading a language quickly and giving a reply.

Hey weasel,Sorry you're reading more into my post than was there. We'll have to agree to disagree here. You contended quite clearly that the Wonderlic was not designed to test intellect, when in fact by their own definition it was designed for exactly that purpose. You could make a compelling case that ultimately the Wonderlic does not effectively test the kinds of intellectual skills necessary to succeed in the NFL, but that's not the declarative you made initially. Ultimately I think there's very little proof that the Wonderlic is strongly correlated with NFL success, on that we agree. But I would contend that it was designed to.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Hey weasel,

Sorry you're reading more into my post than was there. We'll have to agree to disagree here. You contended quite clearly that the Wonderlic was not designed to test intellect, when in fact by their own definition it was designed for exactly that purpose. You could make a compelling case that ultimately the Wonderlic does not effectively test the kinds of intellectual skills necessary to succeed in the NFL, but that's not the declarative you made initially. Ultimately I think there's very little proof that the Wonderlic is strongly correlated with NFL success, on that we agree. But I would contend that it was designed to.

What I said was "You cannot do well on it (in a traditional format was my implication) if you cannot read fast." If you can read well, then it can measure logic and reasoning. If the test is administered orally, it does that. If you cannot read well, you will appear dumber than you are. I have worked with illiterate people and poeple with severe dyslexia. The chair of my department who has a PhD. reads very slowly. He is a brilliant man who would do poorly on this test.

 

[chedha]

Like any standardized test it's hardly a complete assessment of someone's overall intellect

I agree with this..

We also know that he's got an unorthodox delivery, is a raw passer not used to running a pro-style offense, and we can now add to that at worst...a serious issue with intellectual capacity [or a learning disability] and at best [if he got a 16], someone that's on the low end of historical QB ranges and will have to be someone that bucks the odds [much like McNair and McNabb have done in recent years].

Since wonderlic scores are confidential (and those scores that are published, are rumored and can vary.) how do we really know what the historical QB ranges are, since we don't have scores from all QB's that have tested in the past?

 

[Jason Wood]

Like any standardized test it's hardly a complete assessment of someone's overall intellect

I agree with this..

We also know that he's got an unorthodox delivery, is a raw passer not used to running a pro-style offense, and we can now add to that at worst...a serious issue with intellectual capacity [or a learning disability] and at best [if he got a 16], someone that's on the low end of historical QB ranges and will have to be someone that bucks the odds [much like McNair and McNabb have done in recent years].

Since wonderlic scores are confidential (and those scores that are published, are rumored and can vary.) how do we really know what the historical QB ranges are, since we don't have scores from all QB's that have tested in the past?

We do have a fairly large sampling of QB scores...but you're right, technically the data could not be representative of the sum total.