Vincent Jackson to Report to Chargers October 31 (1 Viewer)

[scrumptrulescent]

I am of the opinion that this is not over. Vincent Jackson's camp has not confirmed that he will play.In addition, why would the Chargers change something that is not broken? I just checked my main PPR league for his stats, and Floyd is the #8 overall WR. It seems to me that he has filled Jackson's roster spot with relative ease. Floyd is playing just as well as Vincent Jackson did last year. AJ Smith has proved that the Chargers do not need him and his contract demands were over the top.I do not see the coaching decision to bench Floyd. It is probably a time share that is going to kill fantasy owners of both Floyd and Vincent Jackson.

Why would they have to bench Floyd if Jackson comes back? Why can't both be on either side of the field?

 

[Bri]

There are two ideas I don't think are worth taking seriously. (1) That Jackson will dog it out of spite; or (2) that the Chargers will bench him out of spite.The business side of things is separate from the football side of things. Once Jackson reports, the coaches and players will welcome him back with open arms, and Jackson will play as hard as he always has.

Good point.Moss' value in Oakland, Eddie Kennison and Javon Walker once upon a time...plenty of examples of other WRs just destroying their value due to general crud. Hopefully Jackson will have the right mindset as far as getting to work. Agents views twisted by fans give off this notion that players can play anywhere and it isn't usually true. Young teams (in theory) won't sign possible bad attitudes whether it's founded or not. Pretentiously poor teams won't be knocking down his door with big $. Teams with an established quality WR (or two) like Dallas or NYG won't be calling his agent. There's also teams like the Pats and Titans that have only rarely spent any considerable $ on WRs.Being in a good position as a prime target of (hopefully) a brand new CBA that probably favors veterans and affords teams a larger cap does seem to be a good idea. At this point, if I were him, I wouldn't sign an extension. The chances of a new CBA NOT favoring a player like him is slim to none.

 

[Touchdown There]

I am of the opinion that this is not over. Vincent Jackson's camp has not confirmed that he will play.In addition, why would the Chargers change something that is not broken? I just checked my main PPR league for his stats, and Floyd is the #8 overall WR. It seems to me that he has filled Jackson's roster spot with relative ease. Floyd is playing just as well as Vincent Jackson did last year. AJ Smith has proved that the Chargers do not need him and his contract demands were over the top.I do not see the coaching decision to bench Floyd. It is probably a time share that is going to kill fantasy owners of both Floyd and Vincent Jackson.

Why would they have to bench Floyd if Jackson comes back? Why can't both be on either side of the field?

Yes, I did not state that right. I meant "lose the X wr job". The X position on the Chargers seems to be the golden ticket for fantasy owners.

 

[fruity pebbles]

I still dont understand AJs reasoning in the whole situation. Best he can get now is a pick between the 3rd and 4th rounds and thats if compensation picks reamin in the new CBA. And now he'll have a probable distraction the last month plus of the season. All while he could have had a mid 2nd and been done with the whole affair.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

You guys who think that Jackson will not hurt his value by sitting out after he reports due to "injury" . . . what kind of contract do you think Shawne Merriman will get in a few weeks when he hits the free market?

 

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Did anyone else notice that Jackson seemed to become extremely average as far as production went from week 10 on at the end of last year? To me... and I said it then... it seemed like Rivers already liked Floyd better. Not that Floyd did anything amazing down the stretch eitehr... it just seemed like Rivers was looking his way more on the deep ball. It seems to me that Rivers does just as good with Floyd as the #1 and I really wouldn't be surprised if they put Jackson at #2.

The Chargers will decide who plays split end and who plays flanker. (Jackson was split end last year; Floyd is so far this year.) From there, it's really up to the defense to decide who is #1 and #2. I would define the #1 WR as the guy the defense rolls its coverages to. Rivers will throw to whoever is open.

That's true to an extent. My money says that it will be Gates who is open even more by then anyways. Most plays are designed to get the ball to a specific player. That guy is your first read... then you go through your check downs. Obviously whoever the Chargers decide is their #1 receiver will have more plays designed to get him the ball. Also, considering that Floyd is producing very good right now... having Jackson as the #2 would only open the field up even more for him.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

What do you think faking injuries or refusing to play would do to his market value? Do you really think other teams are big fans of guys that won't honor their contracts? What happens when he decides to do the same thing with his new team? Do you think owners/gm don't consider that?

Nothing. His market value is already set, regardless of whether he plays another down this season. Best of all those teams that are interested in him don't have to give up ANY compensation.NFL teams fail to honor contracts all the time, by cutting players before their contracts are fulfilled. How do you think players feel about it? It's a non-issue.Do you really think after being denied the chance to sign a multi-million dollar deal with a new team and having AJ rub his nose in it, that VJ is going to risk tens of millions of dollars just to play out the last 6 games of 2010 for a couple hundred thousand?Do you really think VJ is going to refuse to play once he gets the big pay day he's been patiently waiting for? The only reason he's hasn't been playing this season is because his market value exceeds what AJ is offering him. Nothing has or will change on that front until he gets out from under the RFA status, NFL owners/GMs understand that perfectly well.

Market values change. This should be common sense. If he plays poorly his market value will lower, if he gets another DUI it will plummet, if he gets injured in practice it will drop, if he plays like Randy Moss in his prime it will rise. Its irrelevant to how players feel getting cut. They are not the ones cutting the check. Every owner in the league is looking to pay as little as possible for their talent. Its a business and none of the owners are going to be holding a pity party for him.If he any awareness of the big picture he will. Vincent Jackson is more likely to ruin his payday by something that happens off the field than on it. Its in his own best interest to play well. A WR that has proven himself elite for two years in a row is going to have a higher market value than a WR that has proven himself elite last year and spent this year faking injuries and sitting on the sidelines.I think Vincent Jackson will follow his agent's advice. If his agent thinks he is underpaid again he will advise him to do whats in his power to remedy that. Did Randy Moss stop his contract demands with the Patriots because the Raiders made him set for life already?And what if his "market value" exceeds what he signed for on his next team in a year or two? Do you really think other owners are going to want to throw out that new contract and give him a second raise out of the goodness of their heart?

 

[Bri]

I am of the opinion that this is not over. Vincent Jackson's camp has not confirmed that he will play.In addition, why would the Chargers change something that is not broken? I just checked my main PPR league for his stats, and Floyd is the #8 overall WR. It seems to me that he has filled Jackson's roster spot with relative ease. Floyd is playing just as well as Vincent Jackson did last year. AJ Smith has proved that the Chargers do not need him and his contract demands were over the top.I do not see the coaching decision to bench Floyd. It is probably a time share that is going to kill fantasy owners of both Floyd and Vincent Jackson.

Why would they have to bench Floyd if Jackson comes back? Why can't both be on either side of the field?

I don't think he meant sidelining a player, there's only one ball.They should just work him in wherever and not pin anyone down to a spot. I'd be surprised if Nannee, Floyd and Jackson couldn't each play any of the three spots if they lined up three wide. Let the defensive matchup dictate where Rivers throws. They're big and their mere presence will raise concern for teams with 5-11 and 6 foot CBs. Throw in Gates and all the attention he gets and hopefully that rook RB can benefit from the attention the passing game gets and...the distribution should change plenty in SD.If someone were to think they went to any effort to replace Floyd or did all this for nothing...that doesn't work either.Not to mention that this whole time there's gotta be at least one person on SD's staff has been thinking "if we had Vincent..." and getting creative in his head drawing up plays.Not much to do other than wait N see how it all shakes out.

 

[otis68]

You guys who think that Jackson will not hurt his value by sitting out after he reports due to "injury" . . . what kind of contract do you think Shawne Merriman will get in a few weeks when he hits the free market?

Merriman has two and a half years of suckitude driving down his value.Once again, if Burleson, Bryant and Coles all get 5+ million a year on the open market, Jackson will command significantly higher than that.

 

[Ksquared]

Why does everyone seem to be forgetting B Marshall's antics last year. Miami paid him pretty well.

 

[geoff8695]

You guys who think that Jackson will not hurt his value by sitting out after he reports due to "injury" . . . what kind of contract do you think Shawne Merriman will get in a few weeks when he hits the free market?

apples and oranges...The Chargers are dumping Merriman because he has no value. If teams were willing to offer the Chargers a 2nd round pick and offer Merriman a multi-million dollar deal in trade, you might have a leg to stand on. Merriman and Jackson's careers are going in opposite directions, and their market values couldn't be further apart.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

Why does everyone seem to be forgetting B Marshall's antics last year. Miami paid him pretty well.

More or less than what he would been paid without the antics?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Once again, if Burleson, Bryant and Coles all get 5+ million a year on the open market, Jackson will command significantly higher than that.

Jackson will make more than Burleson, but the relevant comparison isn't Jackson vs. Burleson. The relevant comparison is studly Jackson vs. useless Jackson.

 

[Bri]

Market values change. This should be common sense. If he plays poorly his market value will lower, if he gets another DUI it will plummet, if he gets injured in practice it will drop, if he plays like Randy Moss in his prime it will rise. Its irrelevant to how players feel getting cut. They are not the ones cutting the check. Every owner in the league is looking to pay as little as possible for their talent. Its a business and none of the owners are going to be holding a pity party for him.If he any awareness of the big picture he will. Vincent Jackson is more likely to ruin his payday by something that happens off the field than on it. Its in his own best interest to play well. A WR that has proven himself elite for two years in a row is going to have a higher market value than a WR that has proven himself elite last year and spent this year faking injuries and sitting on the sidelines.I think Vincent Jackson will follow his agent's advice. If his agent thinks he is underpaid again he will advise him to do whats in his power to remedy that. And what if his "market value" exceeds what he signed for on his next team in a year or two? Do you really think other owners are going to want to throw out that new contract and give him a second raise out of the goodness of their heart?

you didn't really talk about the market here, just his affect on his value.The market gives a whole "When in Rome" attitude that can make an owner feel likes he has no choice but to spend more. Recently, WRs have gone for a mere pittance in trades. There's a difference between trade value and market value, but throw in a new CBA that has owners wanting to be careful but not too careful and Jackson picked about the worst time possible to holdout.

 

[crnerblitz]

Once again, if Burleson, Bryant and Coles all get 5+ million a year on the open market, Jackson will command significantly higher than that.

Jackson will make more than Burleson, but the relevant comparison isn't Jackson vs. Burleson. The relevant comparison is studly Jackson vs. useless Jackson.

And by useless Jackson you mean a torn acl Jackson. I think he has far more to lose by risking injury on the field than by making a business decision that GM's will understand. After all it is all business just as AJ Smith has made it clear to Vincent.

 

[craxie]

IMO teams will take it as a negative if he returns to the team but chooses not to give his best down the stretch for his team that is (hopefully) fighting to make the playoffs.

I doubt it. VJ played out his original contract without complaint and everyone realizes he is in an unprecedented situation.Not wanting to play for a couple hundred grand is just common sense and I don't think other teams will have a problem with it.

 

[geoff8695]

Market values change. This should be common sense. If he plays poorly his market value will lower, if he gets another DUI it will plummet, if he gets injured in practice it will drop, if he plays like Randy Moss in his prime it will rise.

VJ's market value is high as evidenced by teams willing to sign him this season and pay him like a top WR (AND give up a 2nd rounder), so nothing outside of injury or poor performance is likely to significantly change his market value in the short term. This isn't a situation where a player is a bad teammate or locker room cancer. This is a situation where a player is being forced to sign a tender well below his market value, after honoring a contract for several years that was well under market value (without holdout or grumbling). If the CBA hadn't expired SD wouldn't have been able to do this to him, so it's not the same scenario as Moss or other players cited in this thread. Brandon Marshall is arguably a similar player, who secured a monster contract despite many saying similar bad things about him as well...

Its irrelevant to how players feel getting cut. They are not the ones cutting the check. Every owner in the league is looking to pay as little as possible for their talent. Its a business and none of the owners are going to be holding a pity party for him.

If he any awareness of the big picture he will. Vincent Jackson is more likely to ruin his payday by something that happens off the field than on it. Its in his own best interest to play well. A WR that has proven himself elite for two years in a row is going to have a higher market value than a WR that has proven himself elite last year and spent this year faking injuries and sitting on the sidelines.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Outside of a career suicidal off field incident (like a criminal act or another DUI), I believe his market value is secure UNLESS he sustains a significant injury prior to signing his first big contract.

I think Vincent Jackson will follow his agent's advice. If his agent thinks he is underpaid again he will advise him to do whats in his power to remedy that.

You mean the same agent that publicly stated he would structure a future contract in such a manner to limit SD's potential compensation? What kind of advice do you think this same agent is giving him?

I don't think his agent will encourage him to play and risk that big future payday - it's not in the agent's best interest, nor is it in VJ's best interest to risk tens of millions of dollars by playing now and risking the one scenario that could TRULY sink his future market value. However, if he signs the current tender, even if he doesn't play in a game this season, he is still assured that next season AJ can't screw with him again...

And what if his "market value" exceeds what he signed for on his next team in a year or two? Do you really think other owners are going to want to throw out that new contract and give him a second raise out of the goodness of their heart?

Then maybe he will be in line for another big contract. VJ has already played out one long-term deal that was below market value. I've no reason to think he wouldn't do so again in the future. Especially if that contract made him a multi-millionaire, unlike the pittance AJ is forcing him to sign for now and risk torpedoing his market value with an injury, or by phasing him out of the game plan in favor of Floyd or others. Randy Moss was only thrown to one time in the game prior to his trade to Minnesota (perhaps to see what life without Moss would look like?). Even if VJ suits up for the last six games, it's not impossible to envision a scenario where the Chargers want to see what life will be like without VJ moving forward, by not making him a focal point of the offense.Honestly, the more I look at this, the more I see only downside to his playing another snap for the Chargers. I'm guessing VJ and his agent have discussed this far more than we ever will, and I don't know for certain what they will do. However, I've given it my best guess.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I still dont understand AJs reasoning in the whole situation. Best he can get now is a pick between the 3rd and 4th rounds and thats if compensation picks reamin in the new CBA. And now he'll have a probable distraction the last month plus of the season. All while he could have had a mid 2nd and been done with the whole affair.

AJ may still get a 2nd for VJax, plus an additional pick in 2012. The trading deadline has not passed. The Rams seem to be willing to meet the Chargers demands for picks, it's VJax's contractual demands that appear to be the holdup. The most likely scenario now appears to be VJax reporting and playing the last 6 games (almost half the season) + the playoffs, and then either being franchised and traded in the offseason, or signing with another team which the Bolts will likely receive a 3rd round compensation pick.Either way, AJ has a big smile on his face this morning, as do all rational Charger fans. The idea of a healthy, well rested VJax coming back for late Nov, Dec, and the playoffs will only make a fantastic offense better.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Yes, VJ for six games & playoffs for $200K, plus a compensatory third, is worth more than simply a second. A lot more, IMO.

 

[tommyGunZ]

IMO teams will take it as a negative if he returns to the team but chooses not to give his best down the stretch for his team that is (hopefully) fighting to make the playoffs.

I doubt it. VJ played out his original contract without complaint and everyone realizes he is in an unprecedented situation.Not wanting to play for a couple hundred grand is just common sense and I don't think other teams will have a problem with it.

Maybe that would be the case if dogging it for a few games was his only blemish. Coupled with the multiple DUI's, driving w/o a license on the way to a playoff game, and some of dumb antics on the field (spiking the ball before being tackled, kicking the penalty flag) it certainly plays into the narrative that Jackson has significant warts and isn't the kind of guy you want to hand 50M to.Despite his previous issues, I think it's highly doubtful VJax gives anything less than full effort when he rejoins the team. He and Rivers still talk and text each other, and he's a popular teammate. VJax's beef has nothing to do with anyone in the locker room, and everything to do with the guys upstairs. He's a competitor who wants to win and has shown nothing in the past to indicate he's a diva in the Moss/Marshall mold.

 

[craxie]

What do you think faking injuries or refusing to play would do to his market value?

not as much as blowing out an ACL

Do you really think other teams are big fans of guys that won't honor their contracts? What happens when he decides to do the same thing with his new team? Do you think owners/gm don't consider that?

he played out his rookie contract so he's already shown that he can be a team playerif he signs the tender and just reports for the bare minimum, everyone will recognize that he was signing under duress and never wanted to be there in the first placeyou can't compare that to a contract he willingly and happily enters into

 

[geoff8695]

Yes, VJ for six games & playoffs for $200K, plus a compensatory third, is worth more than simply a second. A lot more, IMO.

I'm sure AJ Smith agrees, his actions have pretty much born this out. However, VJ and his agent may not feel like giving AJ what he wants since they had millions on the table and AJ wouldn't take a 2nd round pick. The agent even went on record as saying they would try to make sure SD DOES NOT receive a 3rd in compensatory picks.If they are willing to structure the next contract in such a way just to show AJ that he should have taken the 2nd rounder, is it really a stretch to think that they would also embrace a strategy that would prevent AJ from reaping the possible rewards of having VJ's talents for the last six weeks and playoffs?I freely admit that talk is cheap and perhaps nothing will come of it in the end, but the agent didn't make that public statement DURING negotiations, when it would have obviously been part of the negotiating strategy, but rather AFTER AJ refused to take one of the deals in place at the deadline. That would seem to indicate to me that the agent is giving back to AJ the same treatment that AJ gives to players and agents. Namely that "what I say in public is my final stance and I will not waver from it!" I'm guessing the agent did throw this threat around in negotiations, but didn't make it public until after AJ shot down any potential deals. The public pronouncement afterwards, suggest to me that VJ and the agent are going to follow through, in much the same way that AJ follows through on his threats.

 

[geoff8695]

IMO teams will take it as a negative if he returns to the team but chooses not to give his best down the stretch for his team that is (hopefully) fighting to make the playoffs.

I doubt it. VJ played out his original contract without complaint and everyone realizes he is in an unprecedented situation.Not wanting to play for a couple hundred grand is just common sense and I don't think other teams will have a problem with it.

Maybe that would be the case if dogging it for a few games was his only blemish. Coupled with the multiple DUI's, driving w/o a license on the way to a playoff game, and some of dumb antics on the field (spiking the ball before being tackled, kicking the penalty flag) it certainly plays into the narrative that Jackson has significant warts and isn't the kind of guy you want to hand 50M to.Despite his previous issues, I think it's highly doubtful VJax gives anything less than full effort when he rejoins the team. He and Rivers still talk and text each other, and he's a popular teammate. VJax's beef has nothing to do with anyone in the locker room, and everything to do with the guys upstairs. He's a competitor who wants to win and has shown nothing in the past to indicate he's a diva in the Moss/Marshall mold.

None of this prevented multiple teams from seeking a trade with SD where they not only paid VJ as a top WR for 2010, but also gave up draft picks. If teams are willing to pay him today AND give up draft picks, then I'm pretty confident they will be tripping over one another to pay him in 2011 and NOT have to give up ANY draft picks.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Yes, VJ for six games & playoffs for $200K, plus a compensatory third, is worth more than simply a second. A lot more, IMO.

I'm sure AJ Smith agrees, his actions have pretty much born this out. However, VJ and his agent may not feel like giving AJ what he wants since they had millions on the table and AJ wouldn't take a 2nd round pick. The agent even went on record as saying they would try to make sure SD DOES NOT receive a 3rd in compensatory picks.If they are willing to structure the next contract in such a way just to show AJ that he should have taken the 2nd rounder, is it really a stretch to think that they would also embrace a strategy that would prevent AJ from reaping the possible rewards of having VJ's talents for the last six weeks and playoffs?I freely admit that talk is cheap and perhaps nothing will come of it in the end, but the agent didn't make that public statement DURING negotiations, when it would have obviously been part of the negotiating strategy, but rather AFTER AJ refused to take one of the deals in place at the deadline. That would seem to indicate to me that the agent is giving back to AJ the same treatment that AJ gives to players and agents. Namely that "what I say in public is my final stance and I will not waver from it!" I'm guessing the agent did throw this threat around in negotiations, but didn't make it public until after AJ shot down any potential deals. The public pronouncement afterwards, suggest to me that VJ and the agent are going to follow through, in much the same way that AJ follows through on his threats.

I'd be surprised if VJax retains his current agents much longer. He's clearly received poor advice, and it's costing him millions right now.

 

[tommyGunZ]

IMO teams will take it as a negative if he returns to the team but chooses not to give his best down the stretch for his team that is (hopefully) fighting to make the playoffs.

I doubt it. VJ played out his original contract without complaint and everyone realizes he is in an unprecedented situation.Not wanting to play for a couple hundred grand is just common sense and I don't think other teams will have a problem with it.

Maybe that would be the case if dogging it for a few games was his only blemish. Coupled with the multiple DUI's, driving w/o a license on the way to a playoff game, and some of dumb antics on the field (spiking the ball before being tackled, kicking the penalty flag) it certainly plays into the narrative that Jackson has significant warts and isn't the kind of guy you want to hand 50M to.Despite his previous issues, I think it's highly doubtful VJax gives anything less than full effort when he rejoins the team. He and Rivers still talk and text each other, and he's a popular teammate. VJax's beef has nothing to do with anyone in the locker room, and everything to do with the guys upstairs. He's a competitor who wants to win and has shown nothing in the past to indicate he's a diva in the Moss/Marshall mold.

None of this prevented multiple teams from seeking a trade with SD where they not only paid VJ as a top WR for 2010, but also gave up draft picks. If teams are willing to pay him today AND give up draft picks, then I'm pretty confident they will be tripping over one another to pay him in 2011 and NOT have to give up ANY draft picks.

Of course teams will line up to procure VJax's services; anyone arguing otherwise is naive. The issue is whether VJax "dogging it" is in his best interest in securing the most guaranteed money in the long term deal he'll inevitably receive next spring. I'm arguing that playing hard and not becoming a distraction enhances his value and the compensation he'll receive in that deal.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

VJ's market value is high as evidenced by teams willing to sign him this season and pay him like a top WR (AND give up a 2nd rounder), so nothing outside of injury or poor performance is likely to significantly change his market value in the short term. This isn't a situation where a player is a bad teammate or locker room cancer. This is a situation where a player is being forced to sign a tender well below his market value, after honoring a contract for several years that was well under market value (without holdout or grumbling). If the CBA hadn't expired SD wouldn't have been able to do this to him, so it's not the same scenario as Moss or other players cited in this thread. Brandon Marshall is arguably a similar player, who secured a monster contract despite many saying similar bad things about him as well...

We'll have to agree to disagree here. Outside of a career suicidal off field incident (like a criminal act or another DUI), I believe his market value is secure UNLESS he sustains a significant injury prior to signing his first big contract.

I don't despute that Vincent Jackson has a high market value. I just don't see how anyone could argue against the fact that his market value would be even higher by playing well this season. Whatever he stands to earn next season would have been higher had he played out the season from the get go. Vincent Jackson has never had a serious injury, he does however have a history off field problems. One has never happened and the other has happened several times. I'm not a mathematician but I'm going to say the incidents that happen nearly every year is more likely to happen again than something that has never happened to him. We must have different definitions of a bad teammate because a teammate that fakes injuries or refuses to play hard would qualify in my opinion. He's not the only player in that locker room that could get paid more if they were an unrestricted free agent instead of locked into deals with the Chargers.

You mean the same agent that publicly stated he would structure a future contract in such a manner to limit SD's potential compensation?

What kind of advice do you think this same agent is giving him?

The manner in which Jackson's agent could limit the Charger's compensation is the same way every single free agent would like their contract structured. What agent out there is not trying to get their clients paid mostly through signing bonuses? What teams out there would want to sign their free agents in that way? Talk is cheap. Last I heard his agent was so sure Jackson would never sign the tender period. Is he going to sit out practices too? The risk for injury is not limited to game time. So we are projecting a scenario in which Jackson sits out of practices and collects checks on the sidelines by faking injuries AND does all of this while his teammates (whom most of which are getting paid less than their market value) are struggling for their playoff lives without getting being labeled as bad teammate.

Then maybe he will be in line for another big contract. VJ has already played out one long-term deal that was below market value. I've no reason to think he wouldn't do so again in the future. Especially if that contract made him a multi-millionaire, unlike the pittance AJ is forcing him to sign for now and risk torpedoing his market value with an injury, or by phasing him out of the game plan in favor of Floyd or others. Randy Moss was only thrown to one time in the game prior to his trade to Minnesota (perhaps to see what life without Moss would look like?). Even if VJ suits up for the last six games, it's not impossible to envision a scenario where the Chargers want to see what life will be like without VJ moving forward, by not making him a focal point of the offense.

What % of the league out there deserves a new contract? By the definition of market value in this thread, players are either signed at A) market value (the highest amount of money they could get from any team if they were a UFA this year or B) underpaid and justified in holding out for a new contract. Do you realize how many Chargers are under contract now for amounts less than what they could get on the open market as a free agent? Nobody is forcing Vincent Jackson to sign anything and the idea that Randy Moss recent departure was about the game plan and not money at this point is just silly.

 

[Tau837]

It's actually not in his best interests to play a single down of live action before he signs a big new contract. I will be completely shocked if he appears in another game for the Chargers, and risks missing out on a very big payday.

Why? Are you saying this because of the risk of a long term injury? If he strains a hamstring or turns an ankle, that won't affect his long term value.IMO teams will take it as a negative if he returns to the team but chooses not to give his best down the stretch for his team that is (hopefully) fighting to make the playoffs. Whereas on the flip side, if he does that and plays well, and the Chargers make the playoffs and especially if they win a game or two, IMO he could get a boost above where his value already is today.

Pro football is an incredibly violent sport, and risking a serious injury when a guaranteed pay day is around the corner is illogical. Especially more so when you consider the bad blood brewing between VJ & AJ, which potentially adds 'insult to injury'. I'm sure you'ld like nothing more than to see the Chargers get a boost to what is already a very good offense by getting back their top WR. As a football fan (and one who adopted the Chargers during the Coryell era) I too would love to see Jackson playing again this season. Unfortunately, the cold realist in me just doesn't see that happening...Jackson doesn't need any boost in value, as he's already a proven commodity. In fact his value is so high that just a few weeks ago teams were willing to sign him to a multi-million dollar contract, as well as give up a 2nd round pick. I suspect the Rams, Seahawks, Redskins, Vikings, or whoever held interest in Vincent Jackson in 2010, will still feel the same way in 2011, and with the added bonus that he won't cost them ANY additional draft picks.

We also know that despite any loyalty VJ may feel to teammates, he's as good as gone already, the feud with Chargers brass has become "personal", and VJ holds AJ Smith personally responsible for costing him millions of dollars right now and a lost season of peak earnings potential. VJ and his agent have already talked about "sticking it" back to AJ by structuring base salary in the initial season of his next contract in such a way that a compensatory pick would fall from a likely 3rd, down to a 6th or 7th rounder. At this point VJ isn't going to just forgive and forget and stop resenting...

I also suspect VJ will keep his mouth shut moving forward, sign whatever he has to, and ensure the Chargers can't prevent him from a big pay day again next season. I also think he will do the smart thing by not publicly disclosing his intentions of never playing another down for the Chargers in a live game, or his strategies for avoiding being 'activated' on gamedays. Maybe he will have injuries, migraines, whatever it takes to be sure that SD doesn't activate him for any game... It doesn't matter, because in the end A FAR BIGGER NEGATIVE for VJ would be to risk tens of millions of future dollars by playing and getting injured while only getting paid somewhere between two and three hundred thousand for the last six games of 2010.

If he reports as indicated, I expect him to play in the last six games. And if he plays, I expect him to play to the best of his ability. I guess we'll see.

 

[Touchdown There]

The Vincent Jackson saga has been the most interesting storyline this year. I am still a little confused right now because this was the first headline that I read about it from CBSsports.com

_________________________________________________________

Vincent Jackson, WR SD

News: Vincent Jackson has been advised by the NFL Players Association to report to Chargers camp by Oct. 31 so that he will earn an accrued season and thus be an unrestricted free agent in 2011, reports ESPN, citing several sources.

_________________________________________________________

When I heard that Vincent Jackson's camp has not verified this report, the words "been advised" really seem to stick out. My understanding is that Vincent Jackson has always believed he would be a UFA by sitting out the entire year. It seems what this report is really saying is that the NFL Players Association has advised Jackson he will be a RFA next year if he does not report. Has Vincent Jackson really made the decision to play?

 

[Tau837]

There are two ideas I don't think are worth taking seriously. (1) That Jackson will dog it out of spite; or (2) that the Chargers will bench him out of spite.The business side of things is separate from the football side of things. Once Jackson reports, the coaches and players will welcome him back with open arms, and Jackson will play as hard as he always has.

 

[az_prof]

Why does everyone seem to be forgetting B Marshall's antics last year. Miami paid him pretty well.

Marshall played. He didn't sit out.

 

[az_prof]

The Vincent Jackson saga has been the most interesting storyline this year. I am still a little confused right now because this was the first headline that I read about it from CBSsports.com

_________________________________________________________

Vincent Jackson, WR SD

News: Vincent Jackson has been advised by the NFL Players Association to report to Chargers camp by Oct. 31 so that he will earn an accrued season and thus be an unrestricted free agent in 2011, reports ESPN, citing several sources.

_________________________________________________________

When I heard that Vincent Jackson's camp has not verified this report, the words "been advised" really seem to stick out. My understanding is that Vincent Jackson has always believed he would be a UFA by sitting out the entire year. It seems what this report is really saying is that the NFL Players Association has advised Jackson he will be a RFA next year if he does not report. Has Vincent Jackson really made the decision to play?

Yes, it is still up to him to decide. the NFLPA is warning him basically, so that he understands the situation. And they are signalling that if he sits out and then expects to be a FA that they won't have his back; he is on his own. Of course, he could hire a lawyer and sue the NFL for anti-trust violation. And he might win. But that will take time and it won't improve his market value.

 

[KCC]

Dumb legal question: Is it possible for him to report to the team but still refuse to sign the tender offer?

 

[geoff8695]

Of course teams will line up to procure VJax's services; anyone arguing otherwise is naive. The issue is whether VJax "dogging it" is in his best interest in securing the most guaranteed money in the long term deal he'll inevitably receive next spring. I'm arguing that playing hard and not becoming a distraction enhances his value and the compensation he'll receive in that deal.

My guess is that AJ is also banking on VJax playing hard and not being a distraction, and I agree that it would be out of character for VJ to "dog it". Where we disagree is the part about what's in HIS best interest. Unfortunately, I think VJ's best interest is served by quietly going through the motions of signing the tender (a charade that must be carried out because it's the only way to be absolutely certain that he won't be a RFA again next year), and then find ways to be inactive on game days. It's not a character issue, but rather a business decision that can only be carried out by 'playing these games'. AJ may feel like he can count on VJ not to "dog it" or 'play games', but everything that came out of the negotiation process a few weeks ago leads me to believe VJ is not going to give AJ anything that could even vaguely be considered a "Win" in this extraordinary circumstance. For the sake of Charger fans, I hope I'm wrong, but I have a VERY BAD FEELING about this.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Dumb legal question: Is it possible for him to report to the team but still refuse to sign the tender offer?

He'd have to be under contract to report. (The technically correct answer to your question is yes. The Chargers could pull the tender, making him a free agent. Then the Chargers could offer him a different deal; he could sign that and report.)

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

When I heard that Vincent Jackson's camp has not verified this report, the words "been advised" really seem to stick out. My understanding is that Vincent Jackson has always believed he would be a UFA by sitting out the entire year. It seems what this report is really saying is that the NFL Players Association has advised Jackson he will be a RFA next year if he does not report. Has Vincent Jackson really made the decision to play?

I've thought all along that his agents would be risking a malpractice suit by advising him to hold out the whole year (if he ended up a restricted free-agent again in 2011). I think that's even more true now, given the NFLPA's recommendation.From the beginning, his agents have not handled this the way I would have; so it's hard for me to say for sure what they'll do here. But it would be very risky for them, IMO, to keep advising VJ to sit out the whole season. And there's no real upside to it for them.

 

[Touchdown There]

Ultimately, it is not up to the agent or the NFLPA. Jackson would risk injury during the games at the end of the year. I am very interested to see what happens next.

 

[Sebowski]

I don't think any of this is really new news. We all knew there was a possibility of him reporting to get his year in. The popular thought if that happened would be that AJ would "Keyshawn him". I still see that is more of a possibility than him playing for the lowered tender. I do not expect him to risk injury for a few grand when he has millions on the line. This will go to the courts or an arbitrator before that happens.

 

[BoltBacker]

Will these guys even try? The whole point in not signing their tenders originally was that they don't get any large guaranteed money in case of injury...I don't see either of them risking any sort of injury now.

That would be a unique way to get the long term contract you think you've been owed. His agents look like laughing stocks right about now so I wouldn't be surprised by anything at this point though.

He isn't getting a long term deal from the Chargers regardless, so other teams will understand if he dogs it. I don't think it would hurt his contract status much if at all.

Unless VJ can tackle on special teams or block for the punter I'm not sure this move will change the fortune of the Chargers though. They haven't been losing because they can't pass the ball.

that's funny, i seem to recall 3 games where the chargers were driving late in the 4th for the go ahead/tying TD and couldn't punch it in

This is the worst schtick on these boards in a long time.In your mind the Chargers have lost this season because of deficiencies in the passing game? Ok. I won't try to change your mind. It wasn't too long ago that Marcus McNeil was NEVER going to get a long term contract from the Chargers because mean 'ol AJ Smith will only pay him a couple hundred thousand dollars.The passing game isn't broke without Jackson playing at all so if he dogs it in only hurts Jackson. It is pretty amusing you think GM's and coaches will empathize with Jackson if he did choose to dog it.I think you should go back to criticizing Rivers QB rating without Jackson and making lists of journeyman players that SD needs to save the franchise tag for instead of using it on Jackson. That was much better bait.

 

[geoff8695]

I don't despute that Vincent Jackson has a high market value. I just don't see how anyone could argue against the fact that his market value would be even higher by playing well this season. Whatever he stands to earn next season would have been higher had he played out the season from the get go. Vincent Jackson has never had a serious injury, he does however have a history off field problems. One has never happened and the other has happened several times. I'm not a mathematician but I'm going to say the incidents that happen nearly every year is more likely to happen again than something that has never happened to him.

We must have different definitions of a bad teammate because a teammate that fakes injuries or refuses to play hard would qualify in my opinion. He's not the only player in that locker room that could get paid more if they were an unrestricted free agent instead of locked into deals with the Chargers.

The risk to his market value is greater than the reward IMO. If he sustains a serious injury, he loses a guaranteed tens of millions of dollars. How much higher do you think his market value is really going to go than that? Who in their right mind would want to risk missing out on TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS? If he plays this season, he will be doing just that. It's not a character issue, or being a bad teammate, it's a business decision that he's being forced to make because of the ridiculous catch-22 he fell into with the expiration of the CBA.

The manner in which Jackson's agent could limit the Charger's compensation is the same way every single free agent would like their contract structured. What agent out there is not trying to get their clients paid mostly through signing bonuses? What teams out there would want to sign their free agents in that way? Talk is cheap. Last I heard his agent was so sure Jackson would never sign the tender period. Is he going to sit out practices too? The risk for injury is not limited to game time. So we are projecting a scenario in which Jackson sits out of practices and collects checks on the sidelines by faking injuries AND does all of this while his teammates (whom most of which are getting paid less than their market value) are struggling for their playoff lives without getting being labeled as bad teammate.

It's ridiculous that he even would have to sign this tender or risk going through the same situation again next season. Teammates and players in the NFL would understand that. I don't know exactly what his strategy would be for being inactive on game days, but I think he will do whatever he can to avoid becoming a distraction to his team. Also, I don't believe the playoffs are a foregone conclusion for the Chargers. I doubt the 2010 version of the Chargers has enough talent to win their own division, let alone a championship.

What % of the league out there deserves a new contract? By the definition of market value in this thread, players are either signed at A) market value (the highest amount of money they could get from any team if they were a UFA this year or B) underpaid and justified in holding out for a new contract. Do you realize how many Chargers are under contract now for amounts less than what they could get on the open market as a free agent? Nobody is forcing Vincent Jackson to sign anything and the idea that Randy Moss recent departure was about the game plan and not money at this point is just silly.

Jackson may be forced to sign a tender for MILLIONS OF DOLLARS less than what another team was prepared to pay him right now, simply to avoid being a RFA all over again in 2011. There's no way he wants to go through this ordeal again. I do understand that he coulda/woulda/shoulda signed the Chargers original offer, which would have at least paid him a few million (and still would have been a HUGE payday compared to what his original contract paid him). However, now even if he wanted to return to the Chargers, he is forced to accept a couple hundred thousand instead. That's good money for an average American, but for a top flight WR in the NFL... not so much. And for one poised to make TENS OF MILLIONS if he can just get out from underneath RFA status, it's a terrible risk.You completely missed the point I was making and the example involving Moss. I was saying that in addition to a potential injury destroying VJax's market value, there may be other ways of losing market value that involve suiting up on game days.

The only reason I brought up Moss, is because I've read speculation elsewhere, that the Patriots may have intentionally not thrown his way, because they knew he wouldn't be with the club much longer. The parallel with VJax, is that he almost certainly won't be with the Chargers next year; so SD could certainly use VJ as a decoy, and instead focus on the weapons they know will be a part of their future. Would VJax being phased out and Floyd or others performing at a high level do VJ's market value any favors?

 

[BoltBacker]

I don't think any of this is really new news. We all knew there was a possibility of him reporting to get his year in. The popular thought if that happened would be that AJ would "Keyshawn him". I still see that is more of a possibility than him playing for the lowered tender. I do not expect him to risk injury for a few grand when he has millions on the line. This will go to the courts or an arbitrator before that happens.

What would he tell the courts? What exactly would his position be?

 

[Touchdown There]

I don't think any of this is really new news. We all knew there was a possibility of him reporting to get his year in. The popular thought if that happened would be that AJ would "Keyshawn him". I still see that is more of a possibility than him playing for the lowered tender. I do not expect him to risk injury for a few grand when he has millions on the line. This will go to the courts or an arbitrator before that happens.

What would he tell the courts? What exactly would his position be?

There seems to be some contractual ambiguity in the current CBA. Jackson has thought all along he would be a UFA next year (without reporting). The Chargers have always believed he would be an RFA. The news that broke today seems to be the NFLPA saying, "you may end up being an RFA next year and it is best to report". Reports have been out lately that the NFLPA and the NFL are pretty far apart on some items in the negotiations for the new CBA. It is very likely that the NFLPA does not really need the headache of two individual players contracts during the fragile negotiations. If Jackson does not show up, you would think they are sure to land in front of an arbitrator or court.

 

[shortbow]

So the 31st is Week 8, does that mean hes available to play week 11 or will he be available to play week 8 (all the team stuff aside whats the soonest.)

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I don't think any of this is really new news. We all knew there was a possibility of him reporting to get his year in. The popular thought if that happened would be that AJ would "Keyshawn him". I still see that is more of a possibility than him playing for the lowered tender. I do not expect him to risk injury for a few grand when he has millions on the line. This will go to the courts or an arbitrator before that happens.

What would he tell the courts? What exactly would his position be?

There seems to be some contractual ambiguity in the current CBA. Jackson has thought all along he would be a UFA next year (without reporting). The Chargers have always believed he would be an RFA. The news that broke today seems to be the NFLPA saying, "you may end up being an RFA next year and it is best to report". Reports have been out lately that the NFLPA and the NFL are pretty far apart on some items in the negotiations for the new CBA. It is very likely that the NFLPA does not really need the headache of two individual players contracts during the fragile negotiations. If Jackson does not show up, you would think they are sure to land in front of an arbitrator or court.

There's no ambiguity in the current CBA. (Jackson would be an RFA again.)The ambiguity is that nobody knows what the next CBA will say. No arbitrator or court can resolve that.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

So the 31st is Week 8, does that mean hes available to play week 11 or will he be available to play week 8 (all the team stuff aside whats the soonest.)

If he reports in week 8, he'll be eligible to play in week 12. He has to miss three games. The week 10 bye doesn't count.

 

[BoltBacker]

I don't think any of this is really new news. We all knew there was a possibility of him reporting to get his year in. The popular thought if that happened would be that AJ would "Keyshawn him". I still see that is more of a possibility than him playing for the lowered tender. I do not expect him to risk injury for a few grand when he has millions on the line. This will go to the courts or an arbitrator before that happens.

What would he tell the courts? What exactly would his position be?

There seems to be some contractual ambiguity in the current CBA. Jackson has thought all along he would be a UFA next year (without reporting). The Chargers have always believed he would be an RFA. The news that broke today seems to be the NFLPA saying, "you may end up being an RFA next year and it is best to report". Reports have been out lately that the NFLPA and the NFL are pretty far apart on some items in the negotiations for the new CBA. It is very likely that the NFLPA does not really need the headache of two individual players contracts during the fragile negotiations. If Jackson does not show up, you would think they are sure to land in front of an arbitrator or court.

There's no ambiguity in the current CBA. (Jackson would be an RFA again.)The ambiguity is that nobody knows what the next CBA will say. No arbitrator or court can resolve that.

That's what I don't understand. People seem to be trying to make this situation more murky that it is(or ever was). We have no idea what a future CBA will look like, but until then it's pretty black and white.But then again I still don't understand why some people seem convinced the owners are going to cave on much of anything in the next CBA. Owners have a long career ahead of them cashing network TV checks. Players have a very short career and they will only be making that career shorter if there's a work stoppage so it's the players that have much more pressure on them to agree to the CBA quickly.

 

[shortbow]

So the 31st is Week 8, does that mean hes available to play week 11 or will he be available to play week 8 (all the team stuff aside whats the soonest.)

If he reports in week 8, he'll be eligible to play in week 12. He has to miss three games. The week 10 bye doesn't count.

ok thanks, so hes only fantasy relevant for the playoffs if that.

 

[Touchdown There]

I don't think any of this is really new news. We all knew there was a possibility of him reporting to get his year in. The popular thought if that happened would be that AJ would "Keyshawn him". I still see that is more of a possibility than him playing for the lowered tender. I do not expect him to risk injury for a few grand when he has millions on the line. This will go to the courts or an arbitrator before that happens.

What would he tell the courts? What exactly would his position be?

There seems to be some contractual ambiguity in the current CBA. Jackson has thought all along he would be a UFA next year (without reporting). The Chargers have always believed he would be an RFA. The news that broke today seems to be the NFLPA saying, "you may end up being an RFA next year and it is best to report". Reports have been out lately that the NFLPA and the NFL are pretty far apart on some items in the negotiations for the new CBA. It is very likely that the NFLPA does not really need the headache of two individual players contracts during the fragile negotiations. If Jackson does not show up, you would think they are sure to land in front of an arbitrator or court.

There's no ambiguity in the current CBA. (Jackson would be an RFA again.)The ambiguity is that nobody knows what the next CBA will say. No arbitrator or court can resolve that.

The next CBA is being renegotiated and I understand that it can change. Here is your post from Aug 29th: http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&p=12211663Your post stated that if Jackson does not want to be stuck in the RFA category, he would only have to report by "November 16, the NFL signing deadline. If he does report November 16 (or November 9 for the Chargers' bye week), he would be eligible to play the final four games of the season in weeks 14-17." Reports out right now are all focusing on the "season accrual" issue. Is this not a moot point? If he signs it is likely to be for the fewest games possible, not earn the year of accrual, but move from signed player to UFA status at season end. Has this changed?

Also, if he signed and was only eligible for weeks 14-17, I doubt they work him into the lineup very much at all. Would you agree with this? Do you kick Floyd out of the X receiver role when he is playing fantastic football?

The post also brings up the point that the franchise tag may still be an option for the Chargers next year.

 

[Sebowski]

That's what I don't understand. People seem to be trying to make this situation more murky that it is(or ever was). We have no idea what a future CBA will look like, but until then it's pretty black and white.

But then again I still don't understand why some people seem convinced the owners are going to cave on much of anything in the next CBA. Owners have a long career ahead of them cashing network TV checks. Players have a very short career and they will only be making that career shorter if there's a work stoppage so it's the players that have much more pressure on them to agree to the CBA quickly.

Because they don't want to leave a billion dollars on the table. I'm sure the owners are going to request in rookie wage scale. For the players to give in to this they are going to need a concession on how long it takes to be a FA, as well as tweaking things like the franchise tag, transitional tag, and restricted free agency. Those issues go hand-in-hand with a rookie wage scale.

 

[Mr. PadresLakers]

Who in their right mind would want to risk missing out on TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS? If he plays this season, he will be doing just that. It's not a character issue, or being a bad teammate, it's a business decision that he's being forced to make because of the ridiculous catch-22 he fell into with the expiration of the CBA.

He risked missing out on tens of millions of dollars by not playing as well. Perhaps with a hot start the Vikings agree to AJ Smith's demands and a trade is made. Perhaps he is so impressive in training camp that AJ Smith decides to extend him before the season. Perhaps the more time he spends away from the team the more he turns to alcohol and risks doing something criminally stupid. Perhaps he gets in a car accident on the way to meet with his agent for the 12th time to figure out why hes in this position. The entire idea that Vincent Jackson is entitled to big money now as a restricted free agent is unprecedented in NFL history. The Chargers did him a favor by even entertaining the idea of trading him. His "market value" remains the smallest amount the Chargers can offer him and yet retain his rights.

It's ridiculous that he even would have to sign this tender or risk going through the same situation again next season. Teammates and players in the NFL would understand that. I don't know exactly what his strategy would be for being inactive on game days, but I think he will do whatever he can to avoid becoming a distraction to his team. Also, I don't believe the playoffs are a foregone conclusion for the Chargers. I doubt the 2010 version of the Chargers has enough talent to win their own division, let alone a championship.

I'm not asking for his exact strategy, I'm asking for any strategy. Most players on the team are risking financial security every time they step on the field. What's so special about Vincent Jackson? Is he the only one underpaid? Of course it would breed resentment from the other players. That would especially be the case for a team struggling to make the playoffs.

Jackson may be forced to sign a tender for MILLIONS OF DOLLARS less than what another team was prepared to pay him right now, simply to avoid being a RFA all over again in 2011. There's no way he wants to go through this ordeal again. I do understand that he coulda/woulda/shoulda signed the Chargers original offer, which would have at least paid him a few million (and still would have been a HUGE payday compared to what his original contract paid him). However, now even if he wanted to return to the Chargers, he is forced to accept a couple hundred thousand instead. That's good money for an average American, but for a top flight WR in the NFL... not so much. And for one poised to make TENS OF MILLIONS if he can just get out from underneath RFA status, it's a terrible risk.

What another team would pay him is irrelevant. He is not an unrestricted free agent. He doesn't have a right to negotiate with them in the first place. If Vincent Jackson or his agent has a beef it should be with the players association that helped bring about the uncapped year and their apparent reluctance to make his status a point of negotiation next year.

You completely missed the point I was making and the example involving Moss. I was saying that in addition to a potential injury destroying VJax's market value, there may be other ways of losing market value that involve suiting up on game days. The only reason I brought up Moss, is because I've read speculation elsewhere, that the Patriots may have intentionally not thrown his way, because they knew he wouldn't be with the club much longer. The parallel with VJax, is that he almost certainly won't be with the Chargers next year; so SD could certainly use VJ as a decoy, and instead focus on the weapons they know will be a part of their future. Would VJax being phased out and Floyd or others performing at a high level do VJ's market value any favors?

Sounds like a pretty complicated scheme that can be achieved without hurting the ballclub by just pointing out that Malcom Floyd is on pace to crush Vincent Jackson's career year last year. How would additional 200 yards receiving games from no name Chargers WRs impact the credibility of Vincent Jackson as a player away from the Phillip Rivers?Not only that the Chargers benefit more by Vincent Jackson getting a significant offer next off season. By either draft pick compensation or in trade there is no benefit to turning Jackson unnecessarily into a decoy.

 

[blend]

I sure hope for VJax's sake that he doesn't get a serious injury.