Was America the last... (1 Viewer)

[IC FBGCav]

Chance to run from tyranny and start over?

 

[Mario Kart]

Chance to run from tyranny and start over?

Tell that to the Redskins.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Chance to run from tyranny and start over?

Tell that to the Redskins.

I agree,,,,,,,,,but not what I am asking.

 

[IC FBGCav]

There are many people on this board much more versed in this...............wanted to keep it simple and see where it goes.

 

[timschochet]

We're supposed to be.

 

[McGarnicle]

Is this about the drones and the wiretaps and stuff?

 

[jon_mx]

People were given freedom from a big centralized government, but more and more they keep voting tyranny back into the system. I guess the gold old days of a big power government abusing its citizens are just part of history to most folks and they can't believe a big powerful government can't be trusted with unlimited power.

 

[TxBuckeye]

People were given freedom from a big centralized government, but more and more they keep voting tyranny back into the system. I guess the gold old days of a big power government abusing its citizens are just part of history to most folks and they can't believe a big powerful government can't be trusted with unlimited power.

Short, yet pointless. Never understand why people can't just answer the question the OP asked rather than going off on some pointless ramble.

 

[jon_mx]

People were given freedom from a big centralized government, but more and more they keep voting tyranny back into the system. I guess the gold old days of a big power government abusing its citizens are just part of history to most folks and they can't believe a big powerful government can't be trusted with unlimited power.

Short, yet pointless. Never understand why people can't just answer the question the OP asked rather than going off on some pointless ramble.

Are you referring to your comment?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Yes, but not was, "is."

 

[Henry Ford]

Chance to run from tyranny and start over?

The wonderful thing about governments is that you don't have to run from them. You topple them and you can start over.

 

[Freelove]

S'pose it depends on what you mean by "tyranny."

Some people see the modern Western condition with its all-too-typical 40+ hr workweeks as tyrannical. You could flee that right now to head to like, Ecuador and farm or something.

One man's paradise is another man's tyranny.

We're probably the last to make it the central meme of our existence, though.

 

[bostonfred]

Chance to run from tyranny and start over?

The wonderful thing about governments is that you don't have to run from them. You topple them and you can start over.

I like my governments like I like Tom Brady. Toppleless.

 

[Dan Lambskin]

I've heard Sweden is pretty nice

 

[NewlyRetired]

"Fleeing from the Cylon tyranny, the last Battlestar Galactica leads a rag-tag fugitive fleet on a lonely quest... a shining planet known as Earth.

 

[bostonfred]

S'pose it depends on what you mean by "tyranny."

Some people see the modern Western condition with its all-too-typical 40+ hr workweeks as tyrannical. You could flee that right now to head to like, Ecuador and farm or something.

One man's paradise is another man's tyranny.

We're probably the last to make it the central meme of our existence, though.

Here's a paradigm shift for you. Instead of thinking of America in terms of tyranny and democracy and capitalism and such, let's just look at what we value as a country.

We value mediocrity. Other countries' school programs specialize their kids at a much earlier age. We don't make you pick a major until a couple years into college. We try to make sure that everyone gets a good dose of liberal arts, music, poetry, history, math, and science long after the point where it will help them in their ultimate profession. Then when we go out in the world, there are certain assumptions about the things you have to do in your life. We drill it into your head that you have to travel. Like seeing the grand canyon is going to help you cure cancer. 300 million people doing the same things and learning the same general skills are not going to be as good at their eventual careers as a billion people specializing at an early age, especially if they're spending a thousand hours on internet porn by the time they're 25.

We value deceit. We do very little to actively discourage it. We assume our politicians lie and we think they're naive when they're honest. We criticize athletes who tell the truth about their teammates or opponents if it's not the right thing to say. There's virtually no penalty for lying, and almost never a reward for telling the truth. Even the American trial system is a joke. We make people swear on a Bible they might not believe in to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but after that we basically assume they're lying at all times. Lawyers frequently give the advice "Deny, deny, deny. You can always admit later". It's expected.

We give lip service to ethics, but we don't really want it. For example, we want human trials of new drugs and medicines, but not on us. We pay our professional athletes an absurd amount of money to be lab rats for performance enhancing drugs, then we have wink and a nod rules against them using HGH (you know, because it's illegal, but we won't test for it and we won't keep you out of the hall of fame if you use it). We'd test them on poor people, but then we'd have superpowered poor people running around, and we don't want that. But we do test new drugs and procedures on poor people, all the time. We call it clinical trials, and in some cases it's the only way that poor people can afford to get the medicine they need to save their lives. Of course, we don't actually give them all medication. Some of them, we give placebos, and we just let them die. The placebo list is basically a list of acceptable casualties that our rich folks don't have to worry about being on.

That doesn't mean that we're bad people. But there's no sense in pretending that we're comic book superheroes defending freedom, either.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

S'pose it depends on what you mean by "tyranny."

Some people see the modern Western condition with its all-too-typical 40+ hr workweeks as tyrannical. You could flee that right now to head to like, Ecuador and farm or something.

One man's paradise is another man's tyranny.

We're probably the last to make it the central meme of our existence, though.

Here's a paradigm shift for you. Instead of thinking of America in terms of tyranny and democracy and capitalism and such, let's just look at what we value as a country.

We value mediocrity. Other countries' school programs specialize their kids at a much earlier age. We don't make you pick a major until a couple years into college. We try to make sure that everyone gets a good dose of liberal arts, music, poetry, history, math, and science long after the point where it will help them in their ultimate profession. Then when we go out in the world, there are certain assumptions about the things you have to do in your life. We drill it into your head that you have to travel. Like seeing the grand canyon is going to help you cure cancer. 300 million people doing the same things and learning the same general skills are not going to be as good at their eventual careers as a billion people specializing at an early age, especially if they're spending a thousand hours on internet porn by the time they're 25.

We value deceit. We do very little to actively discourage it. We assume our politicians lie and we think they're naive when they're honest. We criticize athletes who tell the truth about their teammates or opponents if it's not the right thing to say. There's virtually no penalty for lying, and almost never a reward for telling the truth. Even the American trial system is a joke. We make people swear on a Bible they might not believe in to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but after that we basically assume they're lying at all times. Lawyers frequently give the advice "Deny, deny, deny. You can always admit later". It's expected.

We give lip service to ethics, but we don't really want it. For example, we want human trials of new drugs and medicines, but not on us. We pay our professional athletes an absurd amount of money to be lab rats for performance enhancing drugs, then we have wink and a nod rules against them using HGH (you know, because it's illegal, but we won't test for it and we won't keep you out of the hall of fame if you use it). We'd test them on poor people, but then we'd have superpowered poor people running around, and we don't want that. But we do test new drugs and procedures on poor people, all the time. We call it clinical trials, and in some cases it's the only way that poor people can afford to get the medicine they need to save their lives. Of course, we don't actually give them all medication. Some of them, we give placebos, and we just let them die. The placebo list is basically a list of acceptable casualties that our rich folks don't have to worry about being on.

That doesn't mean that we're bad people. But there's no sense in pretending that we're comic book superheroes defending freedom, either.

<_< Dude, little dark there. Want to roll out some positives in your view?

 

[bostonfred]

Sure. We believe that the quality of an individual's life is more important than their contributions. We spend more on entertainment than anyone else. We believe that there are some things everyone should do. The notion that everyone should see the Grand Canyon or Disneyworld or Niagara Falls is frivolous on its face, but it's part of the life we assume most people should live.

 

[timschochet]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Sure. We believe that the quality of an individual's life is more important than their contributions. We spend more on entertainment than anyone else. We believe that there are some things everyone should do. The notion that everyone should see the Grand Canyon or Disneyworld or Niagara Falls is frivolous on its face, but it's part of the life we assume most people should live.

"We believe that the quality of an individual's life is more important than their contributions."

That actually sounds rather nice. I do think we value human life more than other countries.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Oh pishposh. People really think like this?

There is such a thing as immigration law. If there is a law there is a 'legal' and an 'illegal.' Try to run out of an airport in France or Honduras and try to explain you're not doing anything "illegal."

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Space: the final frontier.

 

[Thunderlips]

No. If the United States and Western Civilization falter, someone will come along, scoop up the groundwork ideals and beliefs and run with it. Do people really think that we, as Americans, live in tyrannical times?

 

[timschochet]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Oh pishposh. People really think like this?

There is such a thing as immigration law. If there is a law there is a 'legal' and an 'illegal.' Try to run out of an airport in France or Honduras and try to explain you're not doing anything "illegal."

Can't say if people really think like this. I do.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Oh pishposh. People really think like this?

There is such a thing as immigration law. If there is a law there is a 'legal' and an 'illegal.' Try to run out of an airport in France or Honduras and try to explain you're not doing anything "illegal."

Can't say if people really think like this. I do.

But Tim the Statue of Liberty comparison doesn't hold - Ellis Island had a book that people signed, immigrants were tested, held, sometimes sent back, we had quotas (we still do). I'm all for sticking to the SOL/Ellis system, let's do exactly that.

Hey I've got relatives that came up through Cuba (Spanish) and Mexico (Italian, via marriage), no kidding.

 

[timschochet]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Oh pishposh. People really think like this?

There is such a thing as immigration law. If there is a law there is a 'legal' and an 'illegal.' Try to run out of an airport in France or Honduras and try to explain you're not doing anything "illegal."

Can't say if people really think like this. I do.

But Tim the Statue of Liberty comparison doesn't hold - Ellis Island had a book that people signed, immigrants were tested, held, sometimes sent back, we had quotas (we still do). I'm all for sticking to the SOL/Ellis system, let's do exactly that.

Hey I've got relatives that came up through Cuba (Spanish) and Mexico (Italian, via marriage), no kidding.

Yes Ellis had a book and people came here legally- but it was essentially open immigration because we didn't limit the numbers until 1920 or so. That's what I want to return to.

 

[Ilov80s]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

You know enough about history to know that there has always been an incredibly strong anti-immigrant populist opinion.

 

[Thunderlips]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Oh pishposh. People really think like this?

There is such a thing as immigration law. If there is a law there is a 'legal' and an 'illegal.' Try to run out of an airport in France or Honduras and try to explain you're not doing anything "illegal."

Can't say if people really think like this. I do.

But Tim the Statue of Liberty comparison doesn't hold - Ellis Island had a book that people signed, immigrants were tested, held, sometimes sent back, we had quotas (we still do). I'm all for sticking to the SOL/Ellis system, let's do exactly that.

Hey I've got relatives that came up through Cuba (Spanish) and Mexico (Italian, via marriage), no kidding.

Yes Ellis had a book and people came here legally- but it was essentially open immigration because we didn't limit the numbers until 1920 or so. That's what I want to return to.

Why not just export people like yourself to the countries that these people are coming from in an attempt to show the leaders of those countries that they need to adopt our way of life so their people won't leave?

 

[timschochet]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

You know enough about history to know that there has always been an incredibly strong anti-immigrant populist opinion.

Yep. But we've always avoided letting them write the laws for us.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Oh pishposh. People really think like this?

There is such a thing as immigration law. If there is a law there is a 'legal' and an 'illegal.' Try to run out of an airport in France or Honduras and try to explain you're not doing anything "illegal."

Can't say if people really think like this. I do.

But Tim the Statue of Liberty comparison doesn't hold - Ellis Island had a book that people signed, immigrants were tested, held, sometimes sent back, we had quotas (we still do). I'm all for sticking to the SOL/Ellis system, let's do exactly that.

Hey I've got relatives that came up through Cuba (Spanish) and Mexico (Italian, via marriage), no kidding.

Yes Ellis had a book and people came here legally- but it was essentially open immigration because we didn't limit the numbers until 1920 or so. That's what I want to return to.

Couple things: there was a process, and yes there was a limitation, people with disease, people with undesirable political views, others, not everyone got to stay.

 

[timschochet]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Oh pishposh. People really think like this?

There is such a thing as immigration law. If there is a law there is a 'legal' and an 'illegal.' Try to run out of an airport in France or Honduras and try to explain you're not doing anything "illegal."

Can't say if people really think like this. I do.

But Tim the Statue of Liberty comparison doesn't hold - Ellis Island had a book that people signed, immigrants were tested, held, sometimes sent back, we had quotas (we still do). I'm all for sticking to the SOL/Ellis system, let's do exactly that.

Hey I've got relatives that came up through Cuba (Spanish) and Mexico (Italian, via marriage), no kidding.

Yes Ellis had a book and people came here legally- but it was essentially open immigration because we didn't limit the numbers until 1920 or so. That's what I want to return to.

Why not just export people like yourself to the countries that these people are coming from in an attempt to show the leaders of those countries that they need to adopt our way of life so their people won't leave?

No. This country needs more people like me.

 

[Ilov80s]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Oh pishposh. People really think like this?

There is such a thing as immigration law. If there is a law there is a 'legal' and an 'illegal.' Try to run out of an airport in France or Honduras and try to explain you're not doing anything "illegal."

Can't say if people really think like this. I do.

But Tim the Statue of Liberty comparison doesn't hold - Ellis Island had a book that people signed, immigrants were tested, held, sometimes sent back, we had quotas (we still do). I'm all for sticking to the SOL/Ellis system, let's do exactly that.

Hey I've got relatives that came up through Cuba (Spanish) and Mexico (Italian, via marriage), no kidding.

Yes Ellis had a book and people came here legally- but it was essentially open immigration because we didn't limit the numbers until 1920 or so. That's what I want to return to.

That is untrue. We had immigration laws in the late 1800s, particularly ones that tried to reduce Asian immigrants.

 

[Ilov80s]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

You know enough about history to know that there has always been an incredibly strong anti-immigrant populist opinion.

Yep. But we've always avoided letting them write the laws for us.

I think you need more research in this area, especially in regard to Asian immigrants in the West.

 

[Ilov80s]

I've heard Sweden is pretty nice

And Netherlands, Austria...my god Austria is so beautiful and peaceful and clean. I traveled all over their for 5 days and I don't think I saw 1 cop ever. I have heard great things about Norway also.

 

[Thunderlips]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Oh pishposh. People really think like this?

There is such a thing as immigration law. If there is a law there is a 'legal' and an 'illegal.' Try to run out of an airport in France or Honduras and try to explain you're not doing anything "illegal."

Can't say if people really think like this. I do.

But Tim the Statue of Liberty comparison doesn't hold - Ellis Island had a book that people signed, immigrants were tested, held, sometimes sent back, we had quotas (we still do). I'm all for sticking to the SOL/Ellis system, let's do exactly that.

Hey I've got relatives that came up through Cuba (Spanish) and Mexico (Italian, via marriage), no kidding.

Yes Ellis had a book and people came here legally- but it was essentially open immigration because we didn't limit the numbers until 1920 or so. That's what I want to return to.

Why not just export people like yourself to the countries that these people are coming from in an attempt to show the leaders of those countries that they need to adopt our way of life so their people won't leave?

No. This country needs more people like me.

True...but I think you're needed more there.

 

[Christo]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Oh, please. The "ideal" of the Statute of Liberty? We were feeding expanding nation. African? Sure, come on in. Pick some cotton. But don't ask to vote or own land. Chinese? We're building a railroad through Indian country. Hop aboard. Irish? Okay, go put on a uniform and go fight Johnny Reb. If you live you can do some back-breaking labor that will pay you enough until you die. But make sure they're willing to hire the Irish.

Yeah, if only we were treating these immigrants as well as we treated the ones who came earlier.

 

[Politician Spock]

Chance to run from tyranny and start over?

The last chance? No.

But I think a lot of people assume we created a system that would never break down. And now that it's on it's last days like an aging Ford Thunderbird, they respond to their realization that America isn't eternal and will soon fail by over reacting. This is due to the five stages of grief that their country will soon die.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

You know enough about history to know that there has always been an incredibly strong anti-immigrant populist opinion.

Yep. But we've always avoided letting them write the laws for us.

I think you need more research in this area, especially in regard to Asian immigrants in the West.

Tim you can start with the Page Act. But even when there was no federal law on the subject matter per se there was plenty of picking and choosing along the way at the point of disembarkation.

If anyone is so interested this is a great, true story about German immigration in the 1850's. Very new Orleans centric but a real eye opener.

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-German-Slave-Girl-Extraordinary/dp/080214229X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1406388185&sr=1-1&keywords=little+german+slave+girl

 

[Christo]

Sure. We believe that the quality of an individual's life is more important than their contributions. We spend more on entertainment than anyone else. We believe that there are some things everyone should do. The notion that everyone should see the Grand Canyon or Disneyworld or Niagara Falls is frivolous on its face, but it's part of the life we assume most people should live.

"We believe that the quality of an individual's life is more important than their contributions."

That actually sounds rather nice. I do think we value human life more than other countries.

A lot of other countries. But not all of them.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Sure. We believe that the quality of an individual's life is more important than their contributions. We spend more on entertainment than anyone else. We believe that there are some things everyone should do. The notion that everyone should see the Grand Canyon or Disneyworld or Niagara Falls is frivolous on its face, but it's part of the life we assume most people should live.

"We believe that the quality of an individual's life is more important than their contributions."

That actually sounds rather nice. I do think we value human life more than other countries.

A lot of other countries. But not all of them.

True.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

With the global warming Antarctica is looking better & better.

"Antarctica: It's not just for penguins anymore"

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

With the global warming Antarctica is looking better & better.

"Antarctica: It's not just for penguins anymore"

Sure, a continent shaped like a pie with 7 different countries laying claims.

What could possibly go wrong.

 

[hagmania]

With the global warming Antarctica is looking better & better.

"Antarctica: It's not just for penguins anymore"

Sure, a continent shaped like a pie with 7 different countries laying claims.

What could possibly go wrong.

Well it's a bit nippy down there right now.

 

[Freelove]

With the global warming Antarctica is looking better & better.

"Antarctica: It's not just for penguins anymore"

Sure, a continent shaped like a pie with 7 different countries laying claims.

What could possibly go wrong.

Well it's a bit nippy down there right now.

Here's hoping continental drift does its thing before we run out of freedom.

 

[timschochet]

I'm aware of the anti-Asian laws. I've written about them before in this forum in detail. I was generalizing.

 

[Zegras11]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Take a visit to Ellis Island.

They have a process there to get in.

 

[Christo]

I'm aware of the anti-Asian laws. I've written about them before in this forum in detail. I was generalizing.

When one generalizes one usually somewhat adheres to reality.

 

[Ilov80s]

I'm aware of the anti-Asian laws. I've written about them before in this forum in detail. I was generalizing.

So you were saying we used to be more open to immigration except when it came to the most populous people in the world?

 

[AAABatteries]

There copious amounts of porn on the American Internet.

 

[Jim11]

My problem is that we no longer live up to the ideal of the Statue of Liberty. We used to be a haven for the world's refugees. If you were starving or mistreated, this is where you could come to start a new life.

No longer. Today we try to keep everybody out. Instead of welcoming refugees, we call them "illegal" and scream at children. It's shameful and disgusting.

Try moving to Australia and see if they let just anybody in. BTW, how many of these "refugees" have you taken into your home?