Was Testeverde a bust? (1 Viewer)

[Jous]

Vinny Testeverde is a very strange player......I've heard arguements form both sides. Some say he was an absolute bust who accumulated worthless stats for 10,000 years to build himself up (minus a few very solid seasons). Others say he was a success, and was in a bad situation with the Buccaneers. I've even heard some say that he has a chance at the HOF, considering the massive numbers he's put up and length of time he sustained as a solid QB in the league.

What's your take on Vinny?

 

[Jous]

By the way....I kept saying he "was" or he "did" things because I'm assuming that he's going to retire....which right now is the most likely scenario for him.

 

[Portis 26]

He started off awful with the Bucs, got better with Cleveland and Baltimore, and reached a point with the Jets where he was playing great before declining finally.

He had one really great season in I believe 1998 when the Jets went to the Championship Game.

 

[-OZ-]

Seasons among the league's top 10

Pass attempts: 1988-7, 1989-8, 1996-3t, 2000-1, 2004-9

Completions: 1996-3t, 1998-9t, 2000-5, 2004-10

Passing yards: 1988-9, 1996-2, 1998-9, 2000-6

Passing TDs: 1996-2, 1998-4, 2000-7t

Adjusted yards per pass: 1993-6, 1995-10, 1996-5, 1998-4

Career, Among the league's all-time top 50

Pass attempts: 6

Completions: 6

Passing yards: 6

Passing TDs: 8

Either

1. Yes at first with the Bucs, but became a good player later

2. No, are you crazy? His numbers make him HOF quality

He is an interesting QB, but top 10 in 4 major categories, all-time, borderline HOF

 

[diesel7982]

He started off awful with the Bucs, got better with Cleveland and Baltimore, and reached a point with the Jets where he was playing great before declining finally.

He had one really great season in I believe 1998 when the Jets went to the Championship Game.

Might want to look at his Ravens years then.

 

[Z-Dog]

Well, he was a bust in the sense that as the #1 overall pick, you're looking for guy who will take you to the Superbowl. Testaverde didn't quite get their.

And he's certainly no Hall of Famer, regardless. Elway, Young, Aikman, Favre, Manning, Brady, Testverde? Naw, he doesn't belong in that group, and it don't matter what his numbers look like.

It was too bad that he went down in game 1 in 1999. That could have been his year.

 

[Raider Nation]

He started off awful with the Bucs, got better with Cleveland and Baltimore, and reached a point with the Jets where he was playing great before declining finally.

He had one really great season in I believe 1998 when the Jets went to the Championship Game.

Might want to look at his Ravens years then.

Yep. He was a very pleasant fantasy surprise in Baltimore throwing to "HE HE"....

 

[Raider Nation]

Some say he was an absolute bust who accumulated worthless stats for 10,000 years to build himself up....

to "some" please....

 

[Bri]

I've heard a few GMs put this simply. If the average player plays 4 years and you draft a player that plays twice that(8 years), you've made a good pick. So in this way, no player that has a long NFL career is a bust.

Note how long Leaf and Mandarich and Blair Thomas etc played. It's very hard to predict greatness at the next level never mind durability or how they'll stay in shape from year to year or how much they'll learn and adapt.

 

[Reaper]

I have always said about Vinny that he and Steve Young were on the same course... Send Vinny to San Fran and let Young go to the teams Vinny went to and then compare..... I say Vinny goes to the HOF and we sit here wondering about Young in that case....

Some player just hit the lottery when it comes to Where they go and who they get as team mates......

Vinny started his career in a situation that was among the alltime worst in the NFL!!!

 

[Facenda's Voice]

I voted solid pro, but he is color blind.

 

[thayman]

Well, he was a bust in the sense that as the #1 overall pick, you're looking for guy who will take you to the Superbowl. Testaverde didn't quite get their.

And he's certainly no Hall of Famer, regardless. Elway, Young, Aikman, Favre, Manning, Brady, Testverde? Naw, he doesn't belong in that group, and it don't matter what his numbers look like.

It was too bad that he went down in game 1 in 1999. That could have been his year.

Then how do you judge who goes into the HOF??? If not based on their numbers, and stats, what do you use to decide who makes it in??

 

[Native]

He was absolutely a bust. #1 overall picks shouldnt take ~10 years to find their groove. Vinny had more INTs than TD's in seven of his first eight years, during which time he threw for almost 20,000 yards - quite possibly the most mediocre 20,000 passing yards in the history of the League. And now, people are actually lauding him for those statistics. Sure, he had one or two good seasons in NY and Baltimore, but it dpesnt compensate for the fact that he was the First overall selection in the draft.

His longevitiy and compiled statistics are NOT impressive imo. All it means to me is that he had an excellent agent that was able to find him short-term work in a number of different cities over the last 20 years.

Bottom line: regardless of his lifetime numbers, he was never a franchise QB. Thats the long and the short of the story.

 

[Reaper]

And now, people are actually lauding him for those statistics.

How and where did this thread go from BUST to Lauding?

 

[thayman]

Even as a journeyman, a 20 year career for a QB is pretty impressive.

 

[Native]

And now, people are actually lauding him for those statistics.

How and where did this thread go from BUST to Lauding?

Are we reading the same thread?

 

[Reaper]

And now, people are actually lauding him for those statistics.

How and where did this thread go from BUST to Lauding?

Are we reading the same thread?

I think so Not thinking he was a bust and defending THAT is different from praising the guy.

Personally, I don't think he could have started off his career in a worse situation.... Joe Montana probaby would have been an Average Joe if he took that path.....

 

[Pipes]

Well, he was a bust in the sense that as the #1 overall pick, you're looking for  guy who will take you to the Superbowl. Testaverde didn't quite get their.

And he's certainly no Hall of Famer, regardless. Elway, Young, Aikman, Favre,  Manning, Brady, Testverde? Naw, he doesn't belong in that group, and it don't matter what his numbers look like.

It was too bad that he went down in game 1 in 1999. That could have been his year.

Then how do you judge who goes into the HOF??? If not based on their numbers, and stats, what do you use to decide who makes it in??

That's easy...they need to be one of the best (top 5) players at their position during the ERA they played. While Teste was a nice QB no way was he one of the best QB's in the 90's. However if you compare his stats to others in the Hall they Vinny has quite favorable numbers...however you can't compare apples & oranges.

 

[-OZ-]

Well, he was a bust in the sense that as the #1 overall pick, you're looking for guy who will take you to the Superbowl. Testaverde didn't quite get their.

And he's certainly no Hall of Famer, regardless. Elway, Young, Aikman, Favre, Manning, Brady, Testverde? Naw, he doesn't belong in that group, and it don't matter what his numbers look like.

It was too bad that he went down in game 1 in 1999. That could have been his year.

Then how do you judge who goes into the HOF??? If not based on their numbers, and stats, what do you use to decide who makes it in??

That's easy...they need to be one of the best (top 5) players at their position during the ERA they played. While Teste was a nice QB no way was he one of the best QB's in the 90's. However if you compare his stats to others in the Hall they Vinny has quite favorable numbers...however you can't compare apples & oranges.

Sure you can, I prefer oranges.

 

[thayman]

Well, he was a bust in the sense that as the #1 overall pick, you're looking for  guy who will take you to the Superbowl. Testaverde didn't quite get their.

And he's certainly no Hall of Famer, regardless. Elway, Young, Aikman, Favre,  Manning, Brady, Testverde? Naw, he doesn't belong in that group, and it don't matter what his numbers look like.

It was too bad that he went down in game 1 in 1999. That could have been his year.

Then how do you judge who goes into the HOF??? If not based on their numbers, and stats, what do you use to decide who makes it in??

That's easy...they need to be one of the best (top 5) players at their position during the ERA they played. While Teste was a nice QB no way was he one of the best QB's in the 90's. However if you compare his stats to others in the Hall they Vinny has quite favorable numbers...however you can't compare apples & oranges.

Vinny played for 20 years. So his ERA is Young, Marino, Montana. The guy put up over 45,000 yds, that alot. Yeah it's over 20 years, but if it is so easy to just hang around in the league for 20 years to rack up garbage stats, why don't more players do it???

 

[moleculo]

Well, he was a bust in the sense that as the #1 overall pick, you're looking for  guy who will take you to the Superbowl. Testaverde didn't quite get their.

And he's certainly no Hall of Famer, regardless. Elway, Young, Aikman, Favre,  Manning, Brady, Testverde? Naw, he doesn't belong in that group, and it don't matter what his numbers look like.

It was too bad that he went down in game 1 in 1999. That could have been his year.

Then how do you judge who goes into the HOF??? If not based on their numbers, and stats, what do you use to decide who makes it in??

Championships and superbowls are a big part.Vinnies post season data:

Year  Opp   Result  |  CMP  ATT   PYD PTD INT  |  RSH    YD  TD---------------------+--------------------------+----------------- 1994  nwe  W,20-13  |   20   30   268   1   0  |    5    19   0 1994  pit  L,9-29   |   13   31   144   1   2  |    0     0   0 1998  jax  W,34-24  |   24   36   284   1   1  |    1    -1   0 1998  den  L,10-23  |   31   52   356   0   2  |    0     0   0 2001  oak  L,24-38  |   27   41   277   3   0  |    1     1   0 2002  ind  W,41-0   |    0    0     0   0   0  |    2    -2   0---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------TOTAL                |  115  190  1329   6   5  |    9    17   0out of 6 career playoff games, only one multi-TD game, and that was in a losing effort. Heck, only 2 career playoff games with more TD passes than INT's. Most definately NOT HOF material.Might as well be debating Steve DeBerg.

edit to add: was he a bust? with respect to the franchise that drafted him, absolutely.

 

[cstu]

He was absolutely a bust. #1 overall picks shouldnt take ~10 years to find their groove. Vinny had more INTs than TD's in seven of his first eight years, during which time he threw for almost 20,000 yards - quite possibly the most mediocre 20,000 passing yards in the history of the League. And now, people are actually lauding him for those statistics. Sure, he had one or two good seasons in NY and Baltimore, but it dpesnt compensate for the fact that he was the First overall selection in the draft.

His longevitiy and compiled statistics are NOT impressive imo. All it means to me is that he had an excellent agent that was able to find him short-term work in a number of different cities over the last 20 years.

Bottom line: regardless of his lifetime numbers, he was never a franchise QB. Thats the long and the short of the story.

Testeverde eventually became a good QB, but it doesn't change the fact that he was a complete bust for the team that drafted him #1 overall. Joey Harrington is a bust even though he could go on and have a solid career.

 

[thayman]

Well, he was a bust in the sense that as the #1 overall pick, you're looking for  guy who will take you to the Superbowl. Testaverde didn't quite get their.

And he's certainly no Hall of Famer, regardless. Elway, Young, Aikman, Favre,  Manning, Brady, Testverde? Naw, he doesn't belong in that group, and it don't matter what his numbers look like.

It was too bad that he went down in game 1 in 1999. That could have been his year.

Then how do you judge who goes into the HOF??? If not based on their numbers, and stats, what do you use to decide who makes it in??

Championships and superbowls are a big part.Vinnies post season data:

Year  Opp   Result  |  CMP  ATT   PYD PTD INT  |  RSH    YD  TD---------------------+--------------------------+----------------- 1994  nwe  W,20-13  |   20   30   268   1   0  |    5    19   0 1994  pit  L,9-29   |   13   31   144   1   2  |    0     0   0 1998  jax  W,34-24  |   24   36   284   1   1  |    1    -1   0 1998  den  L,10-23  |   31   52   356   0   2  |    0     0   0 2001  oak  L,24-38  |   27   41   277   3   0  |    1     1   0 2002  ind  W,41-0   |    0    0     0   0   0  |    2    -2   0---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------TOTAL                |  115  190  1329   6   5  |    9    17   0out of 6 career playoff games, only one multi-TD game, and that was in a losing effort. Heck, only 2 career playoff games with more TD passes than INT's. Most definately NOT HOF material.Might as well be debating Steve DeBerg.

edit to add: was he a bust? with respect to the franchise that drafted him, absolutely.

Just playing Devils Advocate here...but....Dan Marino never won a Superbowl.

 

[Reaper]

He was absolutely a bust. #1 overall picks shouldnt take ~10 years to find their groove. Vinny had more INTs than TD's in seven of his first eight years, during which time he threw for almost 20,000 yards - quite possibly the most mediocre 20,000 passing yards in the history of the League. And now, people are actually lauding him for those statistics. Sure, he had one or two good seasons in NY and Baltimore, but it dpesnt compensate for the fact that he was the First overall selection in the draft.

His longevitiy and compiled statistics are NOT impressive imo. All it means to me is that he had an excellent agent that was able to find him short-term work in a number of different cities over the last 20 years.

Bottom line: regardless of his lifetime numbers, he was never a franchise QB. Thats the long and the short of the story.

Testeverde eventually became a good QB, but it doesn't change the fact that he was a complete bust for the team that drafted him #1 overall. Joey Harrington is a bust even though he could go on and have a solid career.

Was Steve Young was a bust to start his NFL career as well?Harrington's team, as bad as they were/are was far from that Tampa situation.

Again, I just think that Tampa team before the age of parity and the salary Cap just had no business trying to compete in the NFL - I also think a lot of people replying really don't even remember how bad that team was and aren't factoring that in at all.. There are NFL specials about how pathetic that team was and Vinny was supposed to come in and make them compete?

I think that situation was maybe The worst one a QB could possibly enter...

In my opinion Joe Montana is a complete bust, worse than Vinny if he had to play in Tampa..... Joe happened to get an amazing team and the best possible system for him to play in. Polar opposites.

 

[moleculo]

Well, he was a bust in the sense that as the #1 overall pick, you're looking for  guy who will take you to the Superbowl. Testaverde didn't quite get their.

And he's certainly no Hall of Famer, regardless. Elway, Young, Aikman, Favre,  Manning, Brady, Testverde? Naw, he doesn't belong in that group, and it don't matter what his numbers look like.

It was too bad that he went down in game 1 in 1999. That could have been his year.

Then how do you judge who goes into the HOF??? If not based on their numbers, and stats, what do you use to decide who makes it in??

Championships and superbowls are a big part.Vinnies post season data:

Year  Opp   Result  |  CMP  ATT   PYD PTD INT  |  RSH    YD  TD---------------------+--------------------------+----------------- 1994  nwe  W,20-13  |   20   30   268   1   0  |    5    19   0 1994  pit  L,9-29   |   13   31   144   1   2  |    0     0   0 1998  jax  W,34-24  |   24   36   284   1   1  |    1    -1   0 1998  den  L,10-23  |   31   52   356   0   2  |    0     0   0 2001  oak  L,24-38  |   27   41   277   3   0  |    1     1   0 2002  ind  W,41-0   |    0    0     0   0   0  |    2    -2   0---------------------+--------------------------+-----------------TOTAL                |  115  190  1329   6   5  |    9    17   0out of 6 career playoff games, only one multi-TD game, and that was in a losing effort. Heck, only 2 career playoff games with more TD passes than INT's. Most definately NOT HOF material.Might as well be debating Steve DeBerg.

edit to add: was he a bust? with respect to the franchise that drafted him, absolutely.

Just playing Devils Advocate here...but....Dan Marino never won a Superbowl.

He did, however, have 8 career playoff victories, 1 SB appearance, 10 postseason games with multiple TD's and 8 career post-season games with more TD passes than TD's.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

He was a bust for the team that drafted him. So if you're asking whether he was a bust as a draft pick, yes; he was a bust.

He was awesome for the Ravens, and good-to-average-to-below-average with the Jets (and Cowboys), but useful on the whole.

 

[vandy73]

i would imagine that Ryan Leaf would take his career in a heartbeat.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Just playing Devils Advocate here...but....Dan Marino never won a Superbowl.

He did, however, have 8 career playoff victories, 1 SB appearance, 10 postseason games with multiple TD's and 8 career post-season games with more TD passes than TD's.

More importantly, he's the only player ever to throw for over 5,000 yards in a season, and the only player besides Petyon Manning to throw for over 4,000 yards six times.

 

[thayman]

Just playing Devils Advocate here...but....Dan Marino never won a Superbowl.

He did, however, have 8 career playoff victories, 1 SB appearance, 10 postseason games with multiple TD's and 8 career post-season games with more TD passes than TD's.

More importantly, he's the only player ever to throw for over 5,000 yards in a season, and the only player besides Petyon Manning to throw for over 4,000 yards six times.

I'm not trying to take down Marino at all. He is one of my favorite players of all time. How many other QB's have played for 20 years? That is Vinny's one accomplishment that is just incredibly impressive to me.

 

[redman]

I thought it would be interesting to look at a side-by-side comparison of the career stats of Rich Gannon (1988 98th overall selection) and Vinny Testaverde (1987 1st overall pick).

GANNON

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Passing | Rushing |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| 1987 min | 5 | 2 6 33.3 18 3.0 0 1 | 0 0 0 || 1988 min | 3 | 7 15 46.7 90 6.0 0 0 | 4 29 0 || 1990 min | 14 | 182 349 52.1 2278 6.5 16 16 | 52 268 1 || 1991 min | 15 | 211 354 59.6 2166 6.1 12 6 | 43 236 2 || 1992 min | 12 | 159 279 57.0 1905 6.8 12 13 | 45 187 0 || 1993 was | 8 | 74 125 59.2 704 5.6 3 7 | 21 88 1 || 1995 kan | 2 | 7 11 63.6 57 5.2 0 0 | 8 25 1 || 1996 kan | 4 | 54 90 60.0 491 5.5 6 1 | 12 81 0 || 1997 kan | 9 | 98 175 56.0 1144 6.5 7 4 | 33 109 2 || 1998 kan | 12 | 206 354 58.2 2305 6.5 10 6 | 43 173 3 || 1999 oak | 16 | 304 515 59.0 3840 7.5 24 14 | 46 298 2 || 2000 oak | 16 | 284 473 60.0 3430 7.3 28 11 | 89 529 4 || 2001 oak | 16 | 361 549 65.8 3828 7.0 27 9 | 63 231 2 || 2002 oak | 16 | 418 618 67.6 4689 7.6 26 10 | 50 156 3 || 2003 oak | 7 | 125 225 55.6 1274 5.7 6 4 | 6 18 0 || 2004 oak | 3 | 41 68 60.3 524 7.7 3 2 | 5 26 0 |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| TOTAL | 158 | 2533 4206 60.2 28743 6.8 180 104 | 520 2454 21 |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+TESTAVERDE

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Passing | Rushing |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| 1987 tam | 6 | 71 165 43.0 1081 6.6 5 6 | 13 50 1 || 1988 tam | 15 | 222 466 47.6 3240 7.0 13 35 | 28 138 1 || 1989 tam | 14 | 258 480 53.8 3133 6.5 20 22 | 25 139 0 || 1990 tam | 14 | 203 365 55.6 2818 7.7 17 18 | 38 280 1 || 1991 tam | 13 | 166 326 50.9 1994 6.1 8 15 | 32 101 0 || 1992 tam | 14 | 206 358 57.5 2554 7.1 14 16 | 36 197 2 || 1993 cle | 10 | 130 230 56.5 1797 7.8 14 9 | 18 74 0 || 1994 cle | 14 | 207 376 55.1 2575 6.8 16 18 | 21 37 2 || 1995 cle | 13 | 241 392 61.5 2883 7.4 17 10 | 18 62 2 || 1996 bal | 16 | 325 549 59.2 4177 7.6 33 19 | 34 188 2 || 1997 bal | 13 | 271 470 57.7 2971 6.3 18 15 | 34 138 0 || 1998 nyj | 15 | 259 421 61.5 3256 7.7 29 7 | 24 104 1 || 1999 nyj | 1 | 10 15 66.7 96 6.4 1 1 | 0 0 0 || 2000 nyj | 16 | 328 590 55.6 3732 6.3 21 25 | 25 32 0 || 2001 nyj | 16 | 260 441 59.0 2752 6.2 15 14 | 31 25 0 || 2002 nyj | 5 | 54 83 65.1 499 6.0 3 3 | 2 23 0 || 2003 nyj | 7 | 123 198 62.1 1385 7.0 7 2 | 6 17 0 || 2004 dal | 16 | 297 495 60.0 3532 7.1 17 20 | 21 38 1 || 2005 nyj | 6 | 60 106 56.6 777 7.3 1 6 | 7 4 2 |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| TOTAL | 224 | 3691 6526 56.6 45252 6.9 269 261 | 413 1647 15 |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+Both were guys whose best years occurred around a decade or more after they were drafted. Based upon draft position, I'd say Gannon was the better pick. I only reference this to point out that Testaverde, while ultimately a good QB, was not a great QB. I don't see a good basis for arguing that he should be in the HoF.

 

[moleculo]

Just playing Devils Advocate here...but....Dan Marino never won a Superbowl.

He did, however, have 8 career playoff victories, 1 SB appearance, 10 postseason games with multiple TD's and 8 career post-season games with more TD passes than TD's.

More importantly, he's the only player ever to throw for over 5,000 yards in a season, and the only player besides Petyon Manning to throw for over 4,000 yards six times.

I'm not trying to take down Marino at all. He is one of my favorite players of all time. How many other QB's have played for 20 years? That is Vinny's one accomplishment that is just incredibly impressive to me.

meh...I'm not impressed with 19 years of mediocrity...John Brodie played for 17 years

Chris Chandler played for 18 years

Steve DeBerg played for 18 years

Joe Ferguson played for 17 years

Jim Hart played for 19 years

Billy Kilmer played for 16 years

Dave Kreig played for 19 years

etc...

 

[thayman]

Just playing Devils Advocate here...but....Dan Marino never won a Superbowl.

He did, however, have 8 career playoff victories, 1 SB appearance, 10 postseason games with multiple TD's and 8 career post-season games with more TD passes than TD's.

More importantly, he's the only player ever to throw for over 5,000 yards in a season, and the only player besides Petyon Manning to throw for over 4,000 yards six times.

I'm not trying to take down Marino at all. He is one of my favorite players of all time. How many other QB's have played for 20 years? That is Vinny's one accomplishment that is just incredibly impressive to me.

meh...I'm not impressed with 19 years of mediocrity...John Brodie played for 17 years

Chris Chandler played for 18 years

Steve DeBerg played for 18 years

Joe Ferguson played for 17 years

Jim Hart played for 19 years

Billy Kilmer played for 16 years

Dave Kreig played for 19 years

etc...

I'm not saying he is HOF worthy at all......just that for a QB to hang around for 20 years is pretty solid, you dont see that very often.

 

[guderian]

To be worthy of the HOF I believe a player should be able to point to a string of several (2-3+) seasons where they could say that they were among the best at the position. Testaverde fails to meet this standard.

He only had 2 seasons where he threw for over 3k yards with a TD/INT ratio greater than 1. He has 269 career TDs against 261 INTs--hardly noteworthy. He only had 2 seasons where he ranked in the top 10 in both yards and TDs and no seasons where he was simultaneously in the top 5 in both categories.

Bledsoe, on the other hand, has 6 seasons where he was in the top 10 in both categories and 2 where he was in the top 5 in both. If you look at Favre, Elway, Montana, etc. you'll see even longer strings of great play.

 

[ChampBailey24]

Was Vinny a bust? No. He was a great player. Not HOF though.

 

[Native]

Was Vinny a bust? No. He was a great player. Not HOF though.

Vinny had a whopping two "great" years in 20 seasons. That doesnt make him a "great player". In fact it makes him very mediocre.

 

[SSOG]

Even as a journeyman, a 20 year career for a QB is pretty impressive.

I agree. I've said the same thing about people who bash Gus Frerotte when talking about Chris Chambers. Sure, he's not the best QB in the league, but he's not the worst QB either, or he wouldn't still be around getting contracts with teams, now would he?

Was Vinny a bust? No. He was a great player. Not HOF though.

Vinny had a whopping two "great" years in 20 seasons. That doesnt make him a "great player". In fact it makes him very mediocre.

"Mediocre" may cut it for about a decade, but that's it. "Mediocre" QBs are available every season. When you're 40 and still getting jobs over guys who are 30 and "Mediocre", the only logical conclusion is that you're better than Mediocre, since everyone knows that age is viewed as a profound negative in The League.The fact that Testeverde was still getting picked up by teams in his late 30s and early 40s demonstrates, to me, that he was a good quarterback. Not great, by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly not "mediocre", not "barely hanging on", not still in The League by the skin of his teeth.

Testeverde was a good QB for a long time. It's hard to call that a bust. I know that Tampa Bay never really got a lot out of the draft pick, but as has been mentioned, who else could they have picked who would have done significantly better on that team?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I know that Tampa Bay never really got a lot out of the draft pick, but as has been mentioned, who else could they have picked who would have done significantly better on that team?

They could have drafted Bo Jackson again. (Actually, that's against the rules. But Cornelius Bennett was the other player being considered for the top pick at the time, and he ended up being pretty good.)

 

[Native]

Sometimes I wish the Hall of Fame would open a special wing honoring "Guys that Played for a Long Time". Athletes that play for 15-20 years will automatically be recognized for their longevity and commitment to professional football. It also enables us to seperate between the true superstars and the "statistics compilers".

 

[SSOG]

I know that Tampa Bay never really got a lot out of the draft pick, but as has been mentioned, who else could they have picked who would have done significantly better on that team?

They could have drafted Bo Jackson again. (Actually, that's against the rules. But Cornelius Bennett was the other player being considered for the top pick at the time, and he ended up being pretty good.)

He ended up being pretty good, but not for Tampa Bay. If they had drafted him, who is to say that he would have become anything other than a footnote in history?

 

[cstu]

Even as a journeyman, a 20 year career for a QB is pretty impressive.

I agree. I've said the same thing about people who bash Gus Frerotte when talking about Chris Chambers. Sure, he's not the best QB in the league, but he's not the worst QB either, or he wouldn't still be around getting contracts with teams, now would he?

Was Vinny a bust? No. He was a great player. Not HOF though.

Vinny had a whopping two "great" years in 20 seasons. That doesnt make him a "great player". In fact it makes him very mediocre.

"Mediocre" may cut it for about a decade, but that's it. "Mediocre" QBs are available every season. When you're 40 and still getting jobs over guys who are 30 and "Mediocre", the only logical conclusion is that you're better than Mediocre, since everyone knows that age is viewed as a profound negative in The League.The fact that Testeverde was still getting picked up by teams in his late 30s and early 40s demonstrates, to me, that he was a good quarterback. Not great, by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly not "mediocre", not "barely hanging on", not still in The League by the skin of his teeth.

Testeverde was a good QB for a long time. It's hard to call that a bust. I know that Tampa Bay never really got a lot out of the draft pick, but as has been mentioned, who else could they have picked who would have done significantly better on that team?

It took him 7 years to throw more TD's than INT's. Don't blame it all on TB since it wasn't until his 3rd year in Cleveland (9th in the NFL) that he played well. IMO, he's a bust that finally figured out how to be an NFL QB.

 

[BlueOnion]

To label a player a bust for a team, we have to look at what the team spent to acquire the player, their expected return and what the team actual got.

So to categorize Vinny a bust, we must look at each individual team he played for. It is not fair to grade Vinnie as a first round pick with the Bucs and then grade Vinnie as a free agent for Cleveland and expect to come to a singular label to umbrella his entire career.

 

[wdh76]

Sometimes I wish the Hall of Fame would open a special wing honoring "Guys that Played for a Long Time". Athletes that play for 15-20 years will automatically be recognized for their longevity and commitment to professional football. It also enables us to seperate between the true superstars and the "statistics compilers".

Could Marino be in both wings?

 

[Native]

Sometimes I wish the Hall of Fame would open a special wing honoring "Guys that Played for a Long Time".  Athletes that play for 15-20 years will automatically be recognized for their longevity and commitment to professional football. It also enables us to seperate between the true superstars and the "statistics compilers".

Could Marino be in both wings?

Anyone could be in both wings. But only the best can be in the Superstar wing.

 

[Native]

Even as a journeyman, a 20 year career for a QB is pretty impressive.

I agree. I've said the same thing about people who bash Gus Frerotte when talking about Chris Chambers. Sure, he's not the best QB in the league, but he's not the worst QB either, or he wouldn't still be around getting contracts with teams, now would he?

Was Vinny a bust? No. He was a great player. Not HOF though.

Vinny had a whopping two "great" years in 20 seasons. That doesnt make him a "great player". In fact it makes him very mediocre.

Testeverde was a good QB for a long time. It's hard to call that a bust. I know that Tampa Bay never really got a lot out of the draft pick, but as has been mentioned, who else could they have picked who would have done significantly better on that team?

No he wasnt. Look at his numbers. He had TWO good years in 20 seasons in the NFL. So he wasnt good for a long time. In fact, just when his immensely disappointing career was starting to wind down, he came through with a mosnter year in 1996 - the first really good season of his 10 year career. He followed that up with another stellar year in 1998 with the Jets. By this time, 35 year old Vinny had people believing that he could continue to ascend, just when he should have been ready to call it quits. THATS how he made to 40. He piqued peoples appetites at 35, only to limp and crawl for the last seven years. And just to clarify, Vinny hasnt been a good QB this decade. Hes thrown more INTs than TDs in six of his last seven seasons - hardly a bastion of steady, consistent play.

 

[redman]

It took him 7 years to throw more TD's than INT's. Don't blame it all on TB since it wasn't until his 3rd year in Cleveland (9th in the NFL) that he played well. IMO, he's a bust that finally figured out how to be an NFL QB.

In reference especially to your first sentence, look at Dan Fouts' numbers at the beginning of his career:
+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Passing | Rushing |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| 1973 sdg | 10 | 87 194 44.8 1126 5.8 6 13 | 7 32 0 || 1974 sdg | 11 | 115 237 48.5 1732 7.3 8 13 | 19 63 1 || 1975 sdg | 10 | 106 195 54.4 1396 7.2 2 10 | 23 170 2 || 1976 sdg | 14 | 208 359 57.9 2535 7.1 14 15 | 18 65 0 || 1977 sdg | 4 | 69 109 63.3 869 8.0 4 6 | 6 13 0 || 1978 sdg | 15 | 224 381 58.8 2999 7.9 24 20 | 20 43 2 || 1979 sdg | 16 | 332 530 62.6 4082 7.7 24 24 | 26 49 2 || 1980 sdg | 16 | 348 589 59.1 4715 8.0 30 24 | 23 15 2 || 1981 sdg | 16 | 360 609 59.1 4802 7.9 33 17 | 22 56 0 || 1982 sdg | 9 | 204 330 61.8 2883 8.7 17 11 | 9 8 1 || 1983 sdg | 10 | 215 340 63.2 2975 8.8 20 15 | 12 -5 1 || 1984 sdg | 13 | 317 507 62.5 3740 7.4 19 17 | 12 -29 0 || 1985 sdg | 14 | 254 430 59.1 3638 8.5 27 20 | 11 -1 0 || 1986 sdg | 12 | 252 430 58.6 3031 7.0 16 22 | 4 -3 0 || 1987 sdg | 11 | 206 364 56.6 2517 6.9 10 15 | 12 0 2 |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| TOTAL | 181 | 3297 5604 58.8 43040 7.7 254 242 | 224 476 13 |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+You could make a credible argument that Testaverde is comparable to Fouts, who BTW benefitted from a very innovative and aggressive offensive scheme (for its day) and some excellent WR's, things that Testaverde never really had. Again, I'm not advocating him for the Hall of Fame, but Vinny had a good career, and not merely a mediocre one. He's far from a bust. Look to Akili Smith, David Klingler, Ryan Leaf, and other similar QB's for that moniker.

 

[BlueOnion]

Sometimes I wish the Hall of Fame would open a special wing honoring "Guys that Played for a Long Time".  Athletes that play for 15-20 years will automatically be recognized for their longevity and commitment to professional football. It also enables us to seperate between the true superstars and the "statistics compilers".

I don't understand the hate for the 'compilers'. I can understand the argument in baseball where a patsy can log 20 years, but the same would never happen in the NFL.

Many people are going to critize Jerome Bettis for being a compiler but when it is all said and done, the guy may not be able walk in 10 or 15 years. Sure he could have been a patsy and quit (Barry Sanders, Robert Smith et al), but the guy had an undeterred focus to push his body further than most would have pushed their body, yet people want to hold that indominal will against him.

It would be akin to discrediting Rocky's accomplishments because he could take a punch.

 

[cstu]

It took him 7 years to throw more TD's than INT's. Don't blame it all on TB since it wasn't until his 3rd year in Cleveland (9th in the NFL) that he played well. IMO, he's a bust that finally figured out how to be an NFL QB.

In reference especially to your first sentence, look at Dan Fouts' numbers at the beginning of his career:
+---------------------------------------+-----------------+ | Passing | Rushing |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| 1973 sdg | 10 | 87 194 44.8 1126 5.8 6 13 | 7 32 0 || 1974 sdg | 11 | 115 237 48.5 1732 7.3 8 13 | 19 63 1 || 1975 sdg | 10 | 106 195 54.4 1396 7.2 2 10 | 23 170 2 || 1976 sdg | 14 | 208 359 57.9 2535 7.1 14 15 | 18 65 0 || 1977 sdg | 4 | 69 109 63.3 869 8.0 4 6 | 6 13 0 || 1978 sdg | 15 | 224 381 58.8 2999 7.9 24 20 | 20 43 2 || 1979 sdg | 16 | 332 530 62.6 4082 7.7 24 24 | 26 49 2 || 1980 sdg | 16 | 348 589 59.1 4715 8.0 30 24 | 23 15 2 || 1981 sdg | 16 | 360 609 59.1 4802 7.9 33 17 | 22 56 0 || 1982 sdg | 9 | 204 330 61.8 2883 8.7 17 11 | 9 8 1 || 1983 sdg | 10 | 215 340 63.2 2975 8.8 20 15 | 12 -5 1 || 1984 sdg | 13 | 317 507 62.5 3740 7.4 19 17 | 12 -29 0 || 1985 sdg | 14 | 254 430 59.1 3638 8.5 27 20 | 11 -1 0 || 1986 sdg | 12 | 252 430 58.6 3031 7.0 16 22 | 4 -3 0 || 1987 sdg | 11 | 206 364 56.6 2517 6.9 10 15 | 12 0 2 |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| TOTAL | 181 | 3297 5604 58.8 43040 7.7 254 242 | 224 476 13 |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+You could make a credible argument that Testaverde is comparable to Fouts, who BTW benefitted from a very innovative and aggressive offensive scheme (for its day) and some excellent WR's, things that Testaverde never really had. Again, I'm not advocating him for the Hall of Fame, but Vinny had a good career, and not merely a mediocre one. He's far from a bust. Look to Akili Smith, David Klingler, Ryan Leaf, and other similar QB's for that moniker.

I think a guy can be a bust regarding where he was drafted and still have a good career, which Testeverde had. Fouts was on the verge of being a bust, but as a 3rd round pick he had a lot more leeway than Testeverde. Luckily for Fouts the Chargers were terrible and could afford to let him keep playing.

 

[redman]

I think a guy can be a bust regarding where he was drafted and still have a good career, which Testeverde had.  Fouts was on the verge of being a bust, but as a 3rd round pick he had a lot more leeway than Testeverde.  Luckily for Fouts the Chargers were terrible and could afford to let him keep playing.

Your definition of "bust" is so expansive as to lose all meaning then. You're telling me that if a high first round draft pick at QB fails to win a championship and make the HoF, he's a bust? That's ridiculous because it fails to recognize 1) that it's a team sport requiring a variety of factors besides the individual player's talent to get him there; and 2) the history of top draft picks failing is so common that even the teams actually drafting the players don't have expectations set that high. How can a guy whose career was far better than the vast majority of top-5 drafted QB's be considered a "bust"? That a parade of mediocre-to-laughable Tampa teams failed to enable him to reach success in the late-80's and early-90's should be no cause for shame. I can't think of another top-5 drafted QB in the last 25 years who was deemed successful during his first 6 years while playing for a team that averaged 5 wins per season, can you?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Solid pro.

He was one of the top 32 QBs in the league for 20 years. Never one of the best, but always top 32.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

In regards to the Hall of Fame, stats alone are not a reason to put a player in.

Stats are a tool to evaluate players, they aren't the evaluation. Most people here have seen a lot of football, and watching the games is a much better indicator of the quality of a player than stats. Having watched Vinny during most of his career, I'd say he never was one of the best players, so he should not make the hall of fame.