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Was the Redeem Team better than the Dream Team? (1 Viewer)

Rirruto

Rirruto

Footballguy
Let me preface this by saying that this is a stupid question, and I'm a stupid person for asking it. I should feel bad. But I've watched the '92 Team USA and the '08 gold medal game against Spain tonight, and maybe the '08 team was better?

The Dream Team is widely acknowledged as being the greatest basketball team ever assembled. And they were super duper awesome, but a lot of their cache is based on having old Bird and Magic. Fair enough, Magic was coming off of a Finals appearance. But this wasn't '86 Bird/Magic. Certainly, having MJ and Barkley at the top of their game is nothing to sneeze at.

I think peak Kobe/DWade/arguably peak Lebron/Olympic Melo is really as good as you can ask for. The Dream Team probably has the distinct advantage at the 4/5, but people really forget how awesome Dwight Howard was in those days. Maybe if Duncan had played in '08 it would be a clear no contest?

There's zero question that the Dream Team was deeper. Having Redd/Boozer v. Stockton/Mullen is laughable. But I think there's maybe something to be said for having specialists/role players for certain situations. If I'm running the 2020 team, I definitely have a Korver/Reddick or whoever even if they aren't a top-level overall player. I probably even have a quote enforcer, like maybe Kendrick Perkins (or whoever KP is now) in case I run up against a physical team.

Am I a dumb person or the dumbest person?

 
16 years later those guys are just more physically imposing. Watching David Robinson tonight in 1992 — he must have been only 220 pounds. He would get bodied every time down the court. Chris Mullin trying to check Carmelo? He wouldn’t be able to be out there. I think 92 wins but it’s super close. Fun games to watch tonight. 
 

Jordan and Pippen could get on Kobe and Lebron but then who has in his prime Wade? Magic? Bird? Please. 

 
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According to Wikipedia, Ewing weighed 240 lbs on that squad. Other sources have his career weight at 255. That's crazy to me. I would have guessed at least 270 just by looking at him, but the mind plays tricks on you thinking that far back.

 
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MJ is my favorite athlete ever.  My problem with these types of questions is the game is different now vs then.   I'm not saying today's game isn't physical, it is but not as much as back then imo.   Anyway after Jordan retired I stopped watching the NBA.   So I really don't know but I'll still take the 92 team all day

 
Capella said:
16 years later those guys are just more physically imposing. Watching David Robinson tonight in 1992 — he must have been only 220 pounds. He would get bodied every time down the court. Chris Mullin trying to check Carmelo? He wouldn’t be able to be out there. I think 92 wins but it’s super close. Fun games to watch tonight. 
 

Jordan and Pippen could get on Kobe and Lebron but then who has in his prime Wade? Magic? Bird? Please. 
Click to expand...
Drexler or Stockton?

Bubble butt Barkley :lol:

 
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Capella said:
16 years later those guys are just more physically imposing. Watching David Robinson tonight in 1992 — he must have been only 220 pounds. He would get bodied every time down the court. Chris Mullin trying to check Carmelo? He wouldn’t be able to be out there. I think 92 wins but it’s super close. Fun games to watch tonight. 
 

Jordan and Pippen could get on Kobe and Lebron but then who has in his prime Wade? Magic? Bird? Please. 
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D-Wade would be carried out on a stretcher as soon as one of those old timers gave him a hard foul

 
Boozer, Howard, Bosh, Prince
vs.
Robinson, Ewing, Malone, Barkley

4 HOFs vs. 4 guys

I'll grant you it's really close 1-3 but Redeem Team gets killed in the paint.

 
AAABatteries said:
Boozer, Howard, Bosh, Prince
vs.
Robinson, Ewing, Malone, Barkley

4 HOFs vs. 4 guys

I'll grant you it's really close 1-3 but Redeem Team gets killed in the paint.
Click to expand...
Howard and Bosh are no doubt hall of Famers. Howard in 2008 was better than anything Ewing ever did. Tough to account for Malone and Barkley, for sure. 

 
Capella said:
Howard and Bosh are no doubt hall of Famers. Howard in 2008 was better than anything Ewing ever did. Tough to account for Malone and Barkley, for sure. 
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I love Bosh, being a GT graduate - but IMO he's not on their level and definitely not in the paint.  I don't accept that Howard is a HOF - guy is a giant turd.  He may end up being one but at no time in his career did I ever think of him as anything more than a wasted talent and again, a giant turd.  I would be willing to say Ewing v. Howard is a wash but there's no way I'm giving you Bosh being as good as Robinson.  And I love the guy.

 
Rirruto said:
Let me preface this by saying that this is a stupid question, and I'm a stupid person for asking it. I should feel bad. But I've watched the '92 Team USA and the '08 gold medal game against Spain tonight, and maybe the '08 team was better?

The Dream Team is widely acknowledged as being the greatest basketball team ever assembled. And they were super duper awesome, but a lot of their cache is based on having old Bird and Magic. Fair enough, Magic was coming off of a Finals appearance. But this wasn't '86 Bird/Magic. Certainly, having MJ and Barkley at the top of their game is nothing to sneeze at.

I think peak Kobe/DWade/arguably peak Lebron/Olympic Melo is really as good as you can ask for. The Dream Team probably has the distinct advantage at the 4/5, but people really forget how awesome Dwight Howard was in those days. Maybe if Duncan had played in '08 it would be a clear no contest?

There's zero question that the Dream Team was deeper. Having Redd/Boozer v. Stockton/Mullen is laughable. But I think there's maybe something to be said for having specialists/role players for certain situations. If I'm running the 2020 team, I definitely have a Korver/Reddick or whoever even if they aren't a top-level overall player. I probably even have a quote enforcer, like maybe Kendrick Perkins (or whoever KP is now) in case I run up against a physical team.

Am I a dumb person or the dumbest person?
Click to expand...
it's a fair question but I think you're overrating the Redeem Team a bit. The Dream Team's frontcourt advantage would be a big deal. Dwight Howard was never the kind of transcendental talent that people thought back then - he was huge, super athletic and a great shot blocker, but he was also always a mental midget who cared more about partying than winning and didn't handle pressure very well. Ewing and Robinson were a million times tougher and meaner than Dwight, and they would have worked him over and made him quit, imo. And if Dwight goes to the bench, we'd be asking guys like Bosh and Boozer to guard those guys in the post?

also, I hear you on specialists being valuable for team makeup - you have to have guys that fill specific roles - but the Dream Team was so deep that Hall of Famers were the specialists/role players for that team. If you need a shooter, Chris Mullin is about as good as it gets. An enforcer, you say? Please meet Mr. Karl Malone and his elbows. 

Bird was definitely a shell of himself on the Dream Team but Magic was in great shape and had a lot to prove about his health and ability at that point. Starting lineups would have probably been Magic, Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Ewing vs LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Melo and Dwight. LeBron vs Magic is a healthy advantage for the Redeem Team, but Jordan gets the edge over Kobe, Pippen vs Wade is a wash, and Barkley/Ewing vs Melo/Dwight skews heavily for the old guys. Then you throw in that the Dream Team's bench is miles ahead of the Redeem Team's bench, and I think this game is close through the first 40 or so minutes with the '92 group pulling away down the stretch to win it.

 
Pinkerton said:
Start/Bench/Cut (aka M/F/K):

MJ and Pippen

Shaq and Kobe

Magic and Kareem 
Click to expand...
I'm not cutting MJ or Magic so I guess I cut Shaq/Kobe.  Then it's really close - Pippen is a fantastic player but it's Kareem - not a fair comparison.

I guess I'd go:

Start - Magic/Kareem

Bench - MJ/Pippen  (I can't believe I'm benching MJ)

Cut - Shaq/Kobe

 
AAABatteries said:
I love Bosh, being a GT graduate - but IMO he's not on their level and definitely not in the paint.  I don't accept that Howard is a HOF - guy is a giant turd.  He may end up being one but at no time in his career did I ever think of him as anything more than a wasted talent and again, a giant turd.  I would be willing to say Ewing v. Howard is a wash but there's no way I'm giving you Bosh being as good as Robinson.  And I love the guy.
Click to expand...
Bosh probably couldn’t guard Robinson but offensively he was extremely good. 
 

You are conflating Howard post 2011 with the question at hand. Howard in 2008 was not a turd, he was dominant, probably the 2nd-best player in the league. 

 
AAABatteries said:
I'm not cutting MJ or Magic so I guess I cut Shaq/Kobe.  Then it's really close - Pippen is a fantastic player but it's Kareem - not a fair comparison.

I guess I'd go:

Start - Magic/Kareem

Bench - MJ/Pippen  (I can't believe I'm benching MJ)

Cut - Shaq/Kobe
Click to expand...
That is the same order I went, and the same logic I had... nobody else agreed with me :hifive:  

 
Possum said:
it's a fair question but I think you're overrating the Redeem Team a bit. The Dream Team's frontcourt advantage would be a big deal. Dwight Howard was never the kind of transcendental talent that people thought back then - he was huge, super athletic and a great shot blocker, but he was also always a mental midget who cared more about partying than winning and didn't handle pressure very well. Ewing and Robinson were a million times tougher and meaner than Dwight, and they would have worked him over and made him quit, imo. And if Dwight goes to the bench, we'd be asking guys like Bosh and Boozer to guard those guys in the post?

also, I hear you on specialists being valuable for team makeup - you have to have guys that fill specific roles - but the Dream Team was so deep that Hall of Famers were the specialists/role players for that team. If you need a shooter, Chris Mullin is about as good as it gets. An enforcer, you say? Please meet Mr. Karl Malone and his elbows. 

Bird was definitely a shell of himself on the Dream Team but Magic was in great shape and had a lot to prove about his health and ability at that point. Starting lineups would have probably been Magic, Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Ewing vs LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Melo and Dwight. LeBron vs Magic is a healthy advantage for the Redeem Team, but Jordan gets the edge over Kobe, Pippen vs Wade is a wash, and Barkley/Ewing vs Melo/Dwight skews heavily for the old guys. Then you throw in that the Dream Team's bench is miles ahead of the Redeem Team's bench, and I think this game is close through the first 40 or so minutes with the '92 group pulling away down the stretch to win it.
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Barkley/Ewing vs 08 Dwight/Melo goes to the 08 team imo. How would Barkley guard Melo? He’d get torched. 
 

As for bench you simply couldn’t play Mullin or Bird. They’d get isolated by one of those 08 wing guys and get smoked. 

 
Capella said:
Barkley/Ewing vs 08 Dwight/Melo goes to the 08 team imo. How would Barkley guard Melo? He’d get torched. 
 

As for bench you simply couldn’t play Mullin or Bird. They’d get isolated by one of those 08 wing guys and get smoked. 
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One thing that folks on my side of the argument are making is the depth of the Dream Team - and I agree with that but in a one-off game that's overrated.  Does anyone really think that LeBron and MJ aren't playing 48 minutes or pretty damn close to it?  I still say Dream Team wins but I'm not saying it's a blowout.  I still think the advantage they have in the paint is enough to give them the nod - plus they have Michael and he doesn't lose.

 
AAABatteries said:
One thing that folks on my side of the argument are making is the depth of the Dream Team - and I agree with that but in a one-off game that's overrated.  Does anyone really think that LeBron and MJ aren't playing 48 minutes or pretty damn close to it?  I still say Dream Team wins but I'm not saying it's a blowout.  I still think the advantage they have in the paint is enough to give them the nod - plus they have Michael and he doesn't lose.
Click to expand...
That is a good point, probably would shorten lineups to 8 guys. 
 

It's really interesting. Man, Kobe-Bron and Wade in the middle of their primes is a force. Michael was unreal though.  92 would probably have to play Drexler more than Magic. I need to fire up one of those 2k games and play it out. 

 
Capella said:
As for bench you simply couldn’t play Mullin or Bird. They’d get isolated by one of those 08 wing guys and get smoked. 
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My recollection of '92 was that Bird really shouldn't have been starting but who the #### was going to tell Bird he's not starting?  But, after looking, it appears he only started 3 games so my memory isn't great.

 
Capella said:
That is a good point, probably would shorten lineups to 8 guys. 
 

It's really interesting. Man, Kobe-Bron and Wade in the middle of their primes is a force. Michael was unreal though.  92 would probably have to play Drexler more than Magic. I need to fire up one of those 2k games and play it out. 
Click to expand...
Totally agree about Drexler, but I'd have him over Barkley.

The perceived issue for the '92 team is covering Lebron, Wade and Kobe, but I can see them using MJ against whichever one was the focal point of the attack, or even just full time on Lebron.  Pippen vs. Kobe would be an epic battle, and while Drexler may not have been as feared a defender as Barkley, he definitely had the ability to keep up with Wade and make him settle for shooting from the perimeter.

The biggest problem for the '08 team is the huge liability on defense named Melo. He will give away more points than he scores against any of Pippen/Magic/MJ/Barkley, and would definitely be in foul trouble.  Whoever Melo ends up guarding is going to have a career day.

To me, it would ultimately come down to which team imposes their style of play over the other.  For as much 'firepower' as the '08 team has, I don't know how cohesive they would be against the '92 team, who were dynamic and deep enough to adjust lineup and tactics to any opponent.  Plus, with the '08 lineup, there is no floor general to run a proper offense, which would be fatal if the '92 team were able to dictate the pace.

As for specific match-ups, I could see:

Lebron guarded by MJ

Wade guarded by Drexler

Kobe guarded by Pippen

Melo guarded by Magic

Dwight guarded by Ewing

I don't see the '08 team matching up the same way:

Magic guarded by Kobe

Jordan guarded by Wade

Pippen guarded by Lebron

Drexler guarded by Melo

Ewing guarded by Dwight

Pretty stout both ways, but I think the '08 team gives up more than they score, especially if it gets into a half-court grind.

 
AAABatteries said:
I love Bosh, being a GT graduate - but IMO he's not on their level and definitely not in the paint.  I don't accept that Howard is a HOF - guy is a giant turd.  He may end up being one but at no time in his career did I ever think of him as anything more than a wasted talent and again, a giant turd.  I would be willing to say Ewing v. Howard is a wash but there's no way I'm giving you Bosh being as good as Robinson.  And I love the guy.
Click to expand...
You serious Clark?

 
Charlie Steiner said:
Totally agree about Drexler, but I'd have him over Barkley.

The perceived issue for the '92 team is covering Lebron, Wade and Kobe, but I can see them using MJ against whichever one was the focal point of the attack, or even just full time on Lebron.  Pippen vs. Kobe would be an epic battle, and while Drexler may not have been as feared a defender as Barkley, he definitely had the ability to keep up with Wade and make him settle for shooting from the perimeter.

The biggest problem for the '08 team is the huge liability on defense named Melo. He will give away more points than he scores against any of Pippen/Magic/MJ/Barkley, and would definitely be in foul trouble.  Whoever Melo ends up guarding is going to have a career day.

To me, it would ultimately come down to which team imposes their style of play over the other.  For as much 'firepower' as the '08 team has, I don't know how cohesive they would be against the '92 team, who were dynamic and deep enough to adjust lineup and tactics to any opponent.  Plus, with the '08 lineup, there is no floor general to run a proper offense, which would be fatal if the '92 team were able to dictate the pace.

As for specific match-ups, I could see:

Lebron guarded by MJ

Wade guarded by Drexler

Kobe guarded by Pippen

Melo guarded by Magic

Dwight guarded by Ewing

I don't see the '08 team matching up the same way:

Magic guarded by Kobe

Jordan guarded by Wade

Pippen guarded by Lebron

Drexler guarded by Melo

Ewing guarded by Dwight

Pretty stout both ways, but I think the '08 team gives up more than they score, especially if it gets into a half-court grind.
Click to expand...
Good post. Didn’t 08 have Chris Paul though? Great defensive player and could run brilliantly run the offense. 
 

If 08 went small ball and put Bron at the 4 — CP/Wade/Howard/Bron/Kobe I don’t see how 92 could keep up. Just not enough young guys to chase them around. And with Melo coming off the bench for offense? Yikes. 

 
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Capella said:
Barkley/Ewing vs 08 Dwight/Melo goes to the 08 team imo. How would Barkley guard Melo? He’d get torched. 
 

As for bench you simply couldn’t play Mullin or Bird. They’d get isolated by one of those 08 wing guys and get smoked. 
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yeah, I agree Barkley wouldn't have it easy defensively, but imo he wouldn't have had as hard a time as Melo would've had trying to guard him. No way Carmelo is stopping anything with Barkley in the post, he wasn't strong enough or tough enough, and Barkley was a better athlete.

you're right about Bird, he was pretty much done at that point in his career, but that's what I said in my post too. I think Mullin would've been fine off the bench though, he'd have handled Tayshaun Prince or Michael Redd pretty easily.

 
Capella said:
Watching David Robinson tonight in 1992 — he must have been only 220 pounds. He would get bodied every time down the court.
Click to expand...
The 2008 team might win a game but this is not why. Robinson dominated a lot of bigs that were stronger and more physical than any of the bigs on the 2008 roster. 

 
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Capella said:
Good post. Didn’t 08 have Chris Paul though? Great defensive player and could run brilliantly run the offense. 
 

If 08 went small ball and put Bron at the 4 — CP/Wade/Howard/Bron/Kobe I don’t see how 92 could keep up. Just not enough young guys to chase them around. And with Melo coming off the bench for offense? Yikes. 
Click to expand...
I had to look it up, but yes the 08 team had Chris Paul, which would give the 92 team some trouble. However, I think the 92 team can still match up better against 08's big guns and doesn't have the defensive liability of Melo.  I think no matter what the configuration, MJ guards Lebron and Pippen guards Kobe.  After that, it would depend on who 08 had on the floor. If CP is in and Melo is out, I pull Ewing and let Magic bump and grind with Dwight while Drexler harasses CP.

To me, it still comes down to Melo being a defensive liability.

ETA: That statement doesn't account for Wade, so I'm going to show my math below:

CP guarded by Drexler

Wade guarded by Magic

Kobe guarded by Pippen

Lebron guarded by Jordan

Howard guarded by Ewing

So, forget my comment about Magic guarding Howard.

 
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Charlie Steiner said:
Totally agree about Drexler, but I'd have him over Barkley.

The perceived issue for the '92 team is covering Lebron, Wade and Kobe, but I can see them using MJ against whichever one was the focal point of the attack, or even just full time on Lebron.  Pippen vs. Kobe would be an epic battle, and while Drexler may not have been as feared a defender as Barkley, he definitely had the ability to keep up with Wade and make him settle for shooting from the perimeter.

The biggest problem for the '08 team is the huge liability on defense named Melo. He will give away more points than he scores against any of Pippen/Magic/MJ/Barkley, and would definitely be in foul trouble.  Whoever Melo ends up guarding is going to have a career day.

To me, it would ultimately come down to which team imposes their style of play over the other.  For as much 'firepower' as the '08 team has, I don't know how cohesive they would be against the '92 team, who were dynamic and deep enough to adjust lineup and tactics to any opponent.  Plus, with the '08 lineup, there is no floor general to run a proper offense, which would be fatal if the '92 team were able to dictate the pace.

As for specific match-ups, I could see:

Lebron guarded by MJ

Wade guarded by Drexler

Kobe guarded by Pippen

Melo guarded by Magic

Dwight guarded by Ewing

I don't see the '08 team matching up the same way:

Magic guarded by Kobe

Jordan guarded by Wade

Pippen guarded by Lebron

Drexler guarded by Melo

Ewing guarded by Dwight

Pretty stout both ways, but I think the '08 team gives up more than they score, especially if it gets into a half-court grind.
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good stuff. Drexler over Barkley would be pretty interesting, I didn't think about that - you could play Magic at the 4 defensively then against Melo, which would be a lot better for Magic. I think MJ would probably guard Kobe and Pippen would take LeBron, though.

 
Possum said:
good stuff. Drexler over Barkley would be pretty interesting, I didn't think about that - you could play Magic at the 4 defensively then against Melo, which would be a lot better for Magic. I think MJ would probably guard Kobe and Pippen would take LeBron, though.
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Pippen vs Lebron makes more sense.  My thought was Lebron would probably run over Pippen and MJ would be a little more stout and take that challenge out of pure ego.  To me, they would yield less points in that configuration than the other way around.  Kobe is right up there with MJ as far as being an assassin, but MJ slows down Lebron more than Pippen does, and Kobe would probably do just as well against either of them, given his style, so MJ or Pippen vs Kobe is more of a push than MJ or Pippen vs Lebron.  I gotta play the percentages here, though I'd definitely switch the match-ups at times just to see what happens.

 
thecatch said:
Robinson was an unreal athlete even by modern standards. He wouldn’t have had a problem. 
Click to expand...
yeah, he was every bit the uber athletic defensive prodigy as Dwight and had a better offensive game too.

actually the more I think about it Robinson would be the better choice as starter over Ewing for this particular matchup.

 
'08 team. The humiliation of multiple international losses give them extra hunger that the Dream Team just doesn't have.

 
Charlie Steiner said:
Pippen vs Lebron makes more sense.  My thought was Lebron would probably run over Pippen and MJ would be a little more stout and take that challenge out of pure ego.  To me, they would yield less points in that configuration than the other way around.  Kobe is right up there with MJ as far as being an assassin, but MJ slows down Lebron more than Pippen does, and Kobe would probably do just as well against either of them, given his style, so MJ or Pippen vs Kobe is more of a push than MJ or Pippen vs Lebron.  I gotta play the percentages here, though I'd definitely switch the match-ups at times just to see what happens.
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gotcha - both Pippen and MJ were incredible defenders so you can't really go wrong either way. 

 
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