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Was this tanking? (1 Viewer)

Miro Z

Footballguy
Team A has the following RBs:

Le'Veon Bell

Benny Cunningham

Tre Mason

Bobby Rainey

Bell and Mason are clear-cut starters on their respective NFL teams, while Cunningham and Rainey are not.

Which RBs do you think he started?

Well, he starfted Cunningham and Rainey.

Cunningham got 5 yards rushing and Rainey got 11 yards rushing.

Meanwhile Bell got 95 yards rushing, 159 yards receiving and a TD, while Mason got 117 yards rushing and 2 TDs.

Do you think this was tanking? I have a view, but I would like to hear what you think.

 
Of course he is.

I'd think it's tanking even if he wanted to use the "I forgot to put Bell back in after the Week 12 bye". Mason was a must start vs. the Raiders (not to mention long passed Cunningham). Rainey had 25 total yards Weeks11-12 (so it's not like one wouldn't realize he's 3rd in pecking order)

 
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If he tanked to help a friend, then never play in a league with him again.

If he tanked because your commissioner has no anti-tanking measures in place, then discuss making changes for 2015 or find a new league.

 
Sure looks like it but did he have an incentive to tank?
This is the answer. What was his motivation? Better draft pick? Help a friend in the W-L column? He clearly was not playing it straight, so the question is whether it was intentional. Sure looks like it.

 
I don't think it's even a question - Bell is an automatic start and anyone would start Mason there as well.

 
Sure looks like it but did he have an incentive to tank?
This is the answer. What was his motivation? Better draft pick? Help a friend in the W-L column? He clearly was not playing it straight, so the question is whether it was intentional. Sure looks like it.
Whether or not he had an incentive is secondary. Clearly the guy didn't play his best players and it's not even remotely close.

 
I think incentive is relevant in the context of collusion to help a buddy vs tanking for a better draft slot next year.

Neither is good, but the latter may be within the rules, while the former almost certainly is not.

 
Did he leave in the same players from last week?
This is the important question. Remember, Bell was on a bye last week. If he just didn't set his lineup this week, that's different than tanking.
He should have never had Cunningham in over Mason last week either. If it was Mason and Rainey with Bell on a bye last week, I can understand that. But Cunningham and Rainey - no way.

 
Need more info but it looks like it.
To add, it would be interesting to know how deep of a league it is in terms of teams/roster size. If Cunningham and Rainey are the best he's got outside of Bell and Mason, and he's had opportunity to improve there, he may have been tanking more than just this week.

 
Of course its tanking. That said, unless it was to help another team make the playoffs, or you have specific rules that disallow tanking for a better draft pick then theres not much you can say or do this year.

 
Need more info but it looks like it.
To add, it would be interesting to know how deep of a league it is in terms of teams/roster size. If Cunningham and Rainey are the best he's got outside of Bell and Mason, and he's had opportunity to improve there, he may have been tanking more than just this week.
Clearly tanked week 13 - maybe more. But what do the rules say? Did he act to his own benefit or did he intentionally help another owner? More info needed. Agree or disagree, many people use tanking as a strategy as long as its within the rules. Can't add rules mid-season, nor should commishes assume everyone knows the unwritten rules. Tanking is a much larger gray area than collusion.

 
Need more info but it looks like it.
To add, it would be interesting to know how deep of a league it is in terms of teams/roster size. If Cunningham and Rainey are the best he's got outside of Bell and Mason, and he's had opportunity to improve there, he may have been tanking more than just this week.
Clearly tanked week 13 - maybe more. But what do the rules say? Did he act to his own benefit or did he intentionally help another owner? More info needed. Agree or disagree, many people use tanking as a strategy as long as its within the rules. Can't add rules mid-season, nor should commishes assume everyone knows the unwritten rules. Tanking is a much larger gray area than collusion.
are there really dynasty leagues that allow (or don't specifically not allow) tanking? That would ruin a league on so many levels,

 
you cant make collusion this obvious... that's what i jokingly tell people in my league.

anyways, starting cunningham over mason could be justifiable pre-game.... cunningham had been getting all of the goal line work the last month or two and in ppr has probably been outscoring mason because of it (sidenote.. FBG's had cunningham listed as out which left me confident with mason as my RB3... they later corrected it but i was sure surprised to read the box score and see cunningham's name)

obviously not starting bell makes no sense unless you are trying to lose

 
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Need more info but it looks like it.
To add, it would be interesting to know how deep of a league it is in terms of teams/roster size. If Cunningham and Rainey are the best he's got outside of Bell and Mason, and he's had opportunity to improve there, he may have been tanking more than just this week.
Clearly tanked week 13 - maybe more. But what do the rules say? Did he act to his own benefit or did he intentionally help another owner? More info needed. Agree or disagree, many people use tanking as a strategy as long as its within the rules. Can't add rules mid-season, nor should commishes assume everyone knows the unwritten rules. Tanking is a much larger gray area than collusion.
are there really dynasty leagues that allow (or don't specifically not allow) tanking? That would ruin a league on so many levels,
There are plenty of other threads to discuss the morals of tanking, but clearly there is a large segment of the FFL community that has no problem tanking to benefit their team. There are mods on this board, past and present, that view it as a legitimate strategy. Commishes can't assume everyone is in agreement. They are not. But in this case if the rules aren't clearly stated then more info is needed to assess collusion. Maybe the rules are clear, but we don't know that until the OP answers some questions.

 
Need more info but it looks like it.
To add, it would be interesting to know how deep of a league it is in terms of teams/roster size. If Cunningham and Rainey are the best he's got outside of Bell and Mason, and he's had opportunity to improve there, he may have been tanking more than just this week.
Clearly tanked week 13 - maybe more. But what do the rules say? Did he act to his own benefit or did he intentionally help another owner? More info needed. Agree or disagree, many people use tanking as a strategy as long as its within the rules. Can't add rules mid-season, nor should commishes assume everyone knows the unwritten rules. Tanking is a much larger gray area than collusion.
are there really dynasty leagues that allow (or don't specifically not allow) tanking? That would ruin a league on so many levels,
My league doesn't have a specific rule. We also have a stupid rule where the worst team has to play the second worst team for the #1 pick. I brought up that this will make a "not so bad" team want to tank since they will be a shoo-in against the legit bad team.
 
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Need more info but it looks like it.
To add, it would be interesting to know how deep of a league it is in terms of teams/roster size. If Cunningham and Rainey are the best he's got outside of Bell and Mason, and he's had opportunity to improve there, he may have been tanking more than just this week.
Clearly tanked week 13 - maybe more. But what do the rules say? Did he act to his own benefit or did he intentionally help another owner? More info needed. Agree or disagree, many people use tanking as a strategy as long as its within the rules. Can't add rules mid-season, nor should commishes assume everyone knows the unwritten rules. Tanking is a much larger gray area than collusion.
are there really dynasty leagues that allow (or don't specifically not allow) tanking? That would ruin a league on so many levels,
My league doesn't have a specific rule. We also have a stupid rule where the worst team has to play the second worst team for the #1 pick. I brought up that this will make a "not so bad" team want to tank since they will be a shoo-in against the legit bad team.
Yeah, that's pretty silly as well. There's no way to truly avoid tanking, but I've always thought an NBA-like weighted draft lottery may be as close as you can get to prevent full-scale tanking.

 
Need more info but it looks like it.
To add, it would be interesting to know how deep of a league it is in terms of teams/roster size. If Cunningham and Rainey are the best he's got outside of Bell and Mason, and he's had opportunity to improve there, he may have been tanking more than just this week.
Clearly tanked week 13 - maybe more. But what do the rules say? Did he act to his own benefit or did he intentionally help another owner? More info needed. Agree or disagree, many people use tanking as a strategy as long as its within the rules. Can't add rules mid-season, nor should commishes assume everyone knows the unwritten rules. Tanking is a much larger gray area than collusion.
are there really dynasty leagues that allow (or don't specifically not allow) tanking? That would ruin a league on so many levels,
My league doesn't have a specific rule. We also have a stupid rule where the worst team has to play the second worst team for the #1 pick. I brought up that this will make a "not so bad" team want to tank since they will be a shoo-in against the legit bad team.
Yeah, that's pretty silly as well. There's no way to truly avoid tanking, but I've always thought an NBA-like weighted draft lottery may be as close as you can get to prevent full-scale tanking.
How's that working for the NBA?

 
Need more info but it looks like it.
To add, it would be interesting to know how deep of a league it is in terms of teams/roster size. If Cunningham and Rainey are the best he's got outside of Bell and Mason, and he's had opportunity to improve there, he may have been tanking more than just this week.
Clearly tanked week 13 - maybe more. But what do the rules say? Did he act to his own benefit or did he intentionally help another owner? More info needed. Agree or disagree, many people use tanking as a strategy as long as its within the rules. Can't add rules mid-season, nor should commishes assume everyone knows the unwritten rules. Tanking is a much larger gray area than collusion.
are there really dynasty leagues that allow (or don't specifically not allow) tanking? That would ruin a league on so many levels,
I was in a league that allowed tanking. The league rule went something like this.

"Bad players" can be started over "good players" once you eliminated from playoff contention in an attempt to better draft position.

Needless to say I left that league.

 
The only true way to avoid tanking is too have weekly prizes for the high score in the league. It needs to be enough of a prize that it makes it worth not tanking.

 
That wouldn't really convince a really bad team not to tank if he's got nearly no chance at the weekly prize anyway. It's just more money for the teams that are already good.

Edit: Oops! Fixed huge copy/paste error.

 
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Need more info but it looks like it.
To add, it would be interesting to know how deep of a league it is in terms of teams/roster size. If Cunningham and Rainey are the best he's got outside of Bell and Mason, and he's had opportunity to improve there, he may have been tanking more than just this week.
Clearly tanked week 13 - maybe more. But what do the rules say? Did he act to his own benefit or did he intentionally help another owner? More info needed. Agree or disagree, many people use tanking as a strategy as long as its within the rules. Can't add rules mid-season, nor should commishes assume everyone knows the unwritten rules. Tanking is a much larger gray area than collusion.
are there really dynasty leagues that allow (or don't specifically not allow) tanking? That would ruin a league on so many levels,
My league doesn't have a specific rule. We also have a stupid rule where the worst team has to play the second worst team for the #1 pick. I brought up that this will make a "not so bad" team want to tank since they will be a shoo-in against the legit bad team.
Yeah, that's pretty silly as well. There's no way to truly avoid tanking, but I've always thought an NBA-like weighted draft lottery may be as close as you can get to prevent full-scale tanking.
How's that working for the NBA?
Don't know - I stopped following the NBA years ago.

Worked great for the Knicks when Patrick Ewing entered the draft.

 
Yeah, that's pretty silly as well. There's no way to truly avoid tanking, but I've always thought an NBA-like weighted draft lottery may be as close as you can get to prevent full-scale tanking.
Assign draft position based on Potential Points, which is how much your team would have scored if you'd started the optimum lineup every week. You might still get a tiny bit of tanking at the fringes of the playoffs (say, the team in line for the #6 seed might decide he'd rather tank to miss the playoffs entirely if his potential points total is low enough), but by and large the best way to game the system is "get rid of all your good players", which mostly defeats the purpose of tanking in the first place. You get bad teams being more proactive about cutting or trading aging veterans, which is good. You'll get bad teams unloading players for future draft picks, which is also good. Also, of all of the stats I've measured, Potential Points has the highest correlation from year-to-year, which means it's going to be one of the best and most consistent measures of team quality.

Not saying it's a perfect system. Just saying I've yet to see any other that comes as close to solving the problem.

 
Yeah, that's pretty silly as well. There's no way to truly avoid tanking, but I've always thought an NBA-like weighted draft lottery may be as close as you can get to prevent full-scale tanking.
Assign draft position based on Potential Points, which is how much your team would have scored if you'd started the optimum lineup every week. You might still get a tiny bit of tanking at the fringes of the playoffs (say, the team in line for the #6 seed might decide he'd rather tank to miss the playoffs entirely if his potential points total is low enough), but by and large the best way to game the system is "get rid of all your good players", which mostly defeats the purpose of tanking in the first place. You get bad teams being more proactive about cutting or trading aging veterans, which is good. You'll get bad teams unloading players for future draft picks, which is also good. Also, of all of the stats I've measured, Potential Points has the highest correlation from year-to-year, which means it's going to be one of the best and most consistent measures of team quality.

Not saying it's a perfect system. Just saying I've yet to see any other that comes as close to solving the problem.
Or just put it in your rules that you're expected to start a competitive lineup each week. However you want to word it, just like I'm sure everyone's rules address collusion.

 
Yeah, that's pretty silly as well. There's no way to truly avoid tanking, but I've always thought an NBA-like weighted draft lottery may be as close as you can get to prevent full-scale tanking.
Assign draft position based on Potential Points, which is how much your team would have scored if you'd started the optimum lineup every week. You might still get a tiny bit of tanking at the fringes of the playoffs (say, the team in line for the #6 seed might decide he'd rather tank to miss the playoffs entirely if his potential points total is low enough), but by and large the best way to game the system is "get rid of all your good players", which mostly defeats the purpose of tanking in the first place. You get bad teams being more proactive about cutting or trading aging veterans, which is good. You'll get bad teams unloading players for future draft picks, which is also good. Also, of all of the stats I've measured, Potential Points has the highest correlation from year-to-year, which means it's going to be one of the best and most consistent measures of team quality.

Not saying it's a perfect system. Just saying I've yet to see any other that comes as close to solving the problem.
That's a good idea, but will never fly in my league unfortunately. We expect people to act with integrity and they typically do, but there's always a few that don't do it overtly like not starting Bell, but more on the fringes.

 
Adam Harstad said:
zamboni said:
Yeah, that's pretty silly as well. There's no way to truly avoid tanking, but I've always thought an NBA-like weighted draft lottery may be as close as you can get to prevent full-scale tanking.
Assign draft position based on Potential Points, which is how much your team would have scored if you'd started the optimum lineup every week. You might still get a tiny bit of tanking at the fringes of the playoffs (say, the team in line for the #6 seed might decide he'd rather tank to miss the playoffs entirely if his potential points total is low enough), but by and large the best way to game the system is "get rid of all your good players", which mostly defeats the purpose of tanking in the first place. You get bad teams being more proactive about cutting or trading aging veterans, which is good. You'll get bad teams unloading players for future draft picks, which is also good. Also, of all of the stats I've measured, Potential Points has the highest correlation from year-to-year, which means it's going to be one of the best and most consistent measures of team quality.

Not saying it's a perfect system. Just saying I've yet to see any other that comes as close to solving the problem.
Tanking is the biggest cancer of dynasty football. The approach Adam describes is by a wide margin the BEST way to address. All the leagues I commission apply it, without exception. [SIZE=13.63636302948px]You would be amazed how much tanking it eliminates.[/SIZE]

Except the way that Adam describes, the other way to tank is rostering players with the same bye week at QB, TE, DEF. I personally am borderline okay with that, since I consider the impact very minimal, but some owners get mad even at that. So in one league, we looked long and hard at a rule to consider it tanking it you don't pick up a starting QB in FCFS when you have no legit starter (due to injuries or byes).

And yes to the OP - it's clear tanking, regardless of the incentive. You should act quickly, but you now have to decide whether to dish out a penalty unilaterally or bring up the decision to the league.

 
Amused to Death said:
Adam Harstad said:
zamboni said:
Yeah, that's pretty silly as well. There's no way to truly avoid tanking, but I've always thought an NBA-like weighted draft lottery may be as close as you can get to prevent full-scale tanking.
Assign draft position based on Potential Points, which is how much your team would have scored if you'd started the optimum lineup every week. You might still get a tiny bit of tanking at the fringes of the playoffs (say, the team in line for the #6 seed might decide he'd rather tank to miss the playoffs entirely if his potential points total is low enough), but by and large the best way to game the system is "get rid of all your good players", which mostly defeats the purpose of tanking in the first place. You get bad teams being more proactive about cutting or trading aging veterans, which is good. You'll get bad teams unloading players for future draft picks, which is also good. Also, of all of the stats I've measured, Potential Points has the highest correlation from year-to-year, which means it's going to be one of the best and most consistent measures of team quality.

Not saying it's a perfect system. Just saying I've yet to see any other that comes as close to solving the problem.
Or just put it in your rules that you're expected to start a competitive lineup each week. However you want to word it, just like I'm sure everyone's rules address collusion.
Having good rules is very important, although it's a balancing act. If your rulebook is very specific and detailed, designed to cover every conceivable situation, it creates the suggestion that anything that is not explicitly disallowed is implicitly allowed. It encourages rule-lawyering and loophole-seeking.

Another approach- and one I prefer- is to have a slimmer rulebook with broader / vaguer rules that establish expectations and then empower a trustworthy commissioner to use his judgement. With this approach, you're mostly spelling out the specifics of what happens in the case of ties and other such procedural matters, and then you'll have a few deliberately vague sportsmanship rules saying "all owners are expected to act with integrity. Acting without integrity includes, but is not limited to: collusion, tanking, deliberately upsetting the competitive balance, etc. Should an owner be in violation of the sportsmanship rule, the Commissioner is empowered to take what action he deems necessary." Obviously the drawback of this approach is you really need a commissioner who is beyond reproach. The advantage is there's no real loopholes to try to find our exploit, and your league is quick and nimble enough to respond to unanticipated situations.

With all of that said, while good rules are imperative, it's often far better to make poor behavior unpalatable instead of illegal. Instead of legislating against it, work on changing motivations so that owners are never tempted to engage in that behavior in the first place. Instead of making tanking illegal, make it undesirable, (and feel free to make it illegal afterwards, just in case, but if you do a good enough job at making it undesirable you'll find the rules never actually get put into practice).

If you've got a rule against collusion, an owner can make decisions he believes are suboptimal, but which he could credibly justify. For instance, he could have started Martavis Bryant over Julio Jones last week, and if called on it, could have gone on about how hot Bryant was and how Julio was drawing Peterson. In that situation, everyone knows he was probably tanking, but nobody can really prove it. More importantly, it shouldn't be the league's job to try to divine internal motivations. That way lie dragons. It builds an atmosphere of mistrust. Far better, in my opinion, to make it so that it is of no benefit whatsoever for an owner to start Bryant over Jones, and then if an owner does start Bryant over Jones, you can probably rest assured that he really thought that was the best way to go, (as silly as most others might have found that decision).

 
Amused to Death said:
Adam Harstad said:
zamboni said:
Yeah, that's pretty silly as well. There's no way to truly avoid tanking, but I've always thought an NBA-like weighted draft lottery may be as close as you can get to prevent full-scale tanking.
Assign draft position based on Potential Points, which is how much your team would have scored if you'd started the optimum lineup every week. You might still get a tiny bit of tanking at the fringes of the playoffs (say, the team in line for the #6 seed might decide he'd rather tank to miss the playoffs entirely if his potential points total is low enough), but by and large the best way to game the system is "get rid of all your good players", which mostly defeats the purpose of tanking in the first place. You get bad teams being more proactive about cutting or trading aging veterans, which is good. You'll get bad teams unloading players for future draft picks, which is also good. Also, of all of the stats I've measured, Potential Points has the highest correlation from year-to-year, which means it's going to be one of the best and most consistent measures of team quality.

Not saying it's a perfect system. Just saying I've yet to see any other that comes as close to solving the problem.
Or just put it in your rules that you're expected to start a competitive lineup each week. However you want to word it, just like I'm sure everyone's rules address collusion.
Having good rules is very important, although it's a balancing act. If your rulebook is very specific and detailed, designed to cover every conceivable situation, it creates the suggestion that anything that is not explicitly disallowed is implicitly allowed. It encourages rule-lawyering and loophole-seeking.

Another approach- and one I prefer- is to have a slimmer rulebook with broader / vaguer rules that establish expectations and then empower a trustworthy commissioner to use his judgement. With this approach, you're mostly spelling out the specifics of what happens in the case of ties and other such procedural matters, and then you'll have a few deliberately vague sportsmanship rules saying "all owners are expected to act with integrity. Acting without integrity includes, but is not limited to: collusion, tanking, deliberately upsetting the competitive balance, etc. Should an owner be in violation of the sportsmanship rule, the Commissioner is empowered to take what action he deems necessary." Obviously the drawback of this approach is you really need a commissioner who is beyond reproach. The advantage is there's no real loopholes to try to find our exploit, and your league is quick and nimble enough to respond to unanticipated situations.

With all of that said, while good rules are imperative, it's often far better to make poor behavior unpalatable instead of illegal. Instead of legislating against it, work on changing motivations so that owners are never tempted to engage in that behavior in the first place. Instead of making tanking illegal, make it undesirable, (and feel free to make it illegal afterwards, just in case, but if you do a good enough job at making it undesirable you'll find the rules never actually get put into practice).

If you've got a rule against collusion, an owner can make decisions he believes are suboptimal, but which he could credibly justify. For instance, he could have started Martavis Bryant over Julio Jones last week, and if called on it, could have gone on about how hot Bryant was and how Julio was drawing Peterson. In that situation, everyone knows he was probably tanking, but nobody can really prove it. More importantly, it shouldn't be the league's job to try to divine internal motivations. That way lie dragons. It builds an atmosphere of mistrust. Far better, in my opinion, to make it so that it is of no benefit whatsoever for an owner to start Bryant over Jones, and then if an owner does start Bryant over Jones, you can probably rest assured that he really thought that was the best way to go, (as silly as most others might have found that decision).
tl;dr

My point has always been that some people view various degrees of tanking as a viable strategy. If the rules explicitly say your league requires every line up to be set with the purpose of winning the game makes it very clear that no degree of tanking is acceptable. I know you can't possibly cover all situations with rules, but you can be clear that playing for a better draft pick is not allowed nor is manipulating playoff seeding. Many leagues do allow it (ESPN allows for it in their rules). Marc Levin, who literally wrote the book on FFL for FBGs says he's all for it and so were his leaguemates.

Every FFL player knows collusion is a clear violation and no one will openly admit to it. Tanking is not on that level. The rules should be clear of what is expected, especially when playing with anonymous owners.

 
tl;dr

My point has always been that some people view various degrees of tanking as a viable strategy. If the rules explicitly say your league requires every line up to be set with the purpose of winning the game makes it very clear that no degree of tanking is acceptable. I know you can't possibly cover all situations with rules, but you can be clear that playing for a better draft pick is not allowed nor is manipulating playoff seeding. Many leagues do allow it (ESPN allows for it in their rules). Marc Levin, who literally wrote the book on FFL for FBGs says he's all for it and so were his leaguemates.

Every FFL player knows collusion is a clear violation and no one will openly admit to it. Tanking is not on that level. The rules should be clear of what is expected, especially when playing with anonymous owners.
Yes, I'm aware that's your point. I seem to recall us having a rather detailed discussion on this very point last year. :)

If I were to provide a tl;dr of my argument, it would be this: clearly setting expectations with respect to tanking is necessary to prevent tanking, but it is not sufficient to prevent tanking. If you really want people not to tank, the best way to accomplish that goal is to remove the motivation to tank. Find out what reward tanking is aimed at receiving, and then change the setup so that tanking no longer receives that reward. Hacking motivations is usually a lot more effective than legislating behavior, at least in my own personal experience.

 
If he tanked to help a friend, then never play in a league with him again.

If he tanked because your commissioner has no anti-tanking measures in place, then discuss making changes for 2015 or find a new league.
I couldn't agree more with Fariq right here, on both points.

zamboni said:
Sure looks like it but did he have an incentive to tank?
This is the answer. What was his motivation? Better draft pick? Help a friend in the W-L column? He clearly was not playing it straight, so the question is whether it was intentional. Sure looks like it.
Whether or not he had an incentive is secondary. Clearly the guy didn't play his best players and it's not even remotely close.
And Zamboni is right. It doesn't matter what the incentive is. The point is, he didn't play his best players.

 
debated this internally all day as tanking would benefit me for last place and first pick netting me charles and bell starting out next year. semi tanked by replacing charles with miller tonite. figured its a slippery slope either way where our rules aren't definitively against tanking.

 

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