Wayne Gretzky vs. Mario Lemieux (1 Viewer)

[Ghost Rider]

I didn't want the NHL playoff thread to be hijacked any further, so I thought we could vote on and discuss it in a new thread.

 

[Charlie Harper]

Bobby Orr.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Gordie Howe

 

[IronToe Nedney]

Mike Keane.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

when we did an all-time NHL player draft, here was the 1st round:

1.1 hoopsfan/SofaKings - C Wayne Gretzky

1.2 PAO - C Mario Lemieux

1.3 FridayFrenzy - D Bobby Orr

1.4 Nipsey - C Joe Malone

1.5 Northern Voice - RW Maurice Richard

1.6 Sammy3469 - C Newsy Lalonde

1.7 Tremendous Upside - RW Mike Bossy

1.8 DoubleDown - RW Gordie Howe

1.9 RockNRolen - RW Brett Hull

1.10 Borat - D Paul Coffey

1.11 Gordon44 - C Mark Messier

1.12 Parmcat - C Marcel Dionne

1.13 Kraft - RW Guy LaFleur

1.14 Funkley - D Denis Potvin

1.15 mrharrier - RW Jari Kurri

1.16 Rudnicki - G Dominik Hasek

1.17 ThisGuy - LW Michel Goulet

1.18 Pat Patriot - C Phil Esposito

1.19 Spladow! - D Ray Bourque

1.20 Early_10 - G Patrick Roy

1.21 broncofan - LW Cy Denneny

1.22 Duckboy - D Larry Robinson

1.23 TRE - LW John Bucyk

1.24 Pumpnick – C Bryan Trottier

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=241438good times in that thread

 

[Franknbeans]

Bourque was a steal

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

when we did an all-time NHL player draft, here was the 1st round:

1.1 hoopsfan/SofaKings - C Wayne Gretzky

1.2 PAO - C Mario Lemieux

1.3 FridayFrenzy - D Bobby Orr

1.4 Nipsey - C Joe Malone

1.5 Northern Voice - RW Maurice Richard

1.6 Sammy3469 - C Newsy Lalonde

1.7 Tremendous Upside - RW Mike Bossy

1.8 DoubleDown - RW Gordie Howe

1.9 RockNRolen - RW Brett Hull

1.10 Borat - D Paul Coffey

1.11 Gordon44 - C Mark Messier

1.12 Parmcat - C Marcel Dionne

1.13 Kraft - RW Guy LaFleur

1.14 Funkley - D Denis Potvin

1.15 mrharrier - RW Jari Kurri

1.16 Rudnicki - G Dominik Hasek

1.17 ThisGuy - LW Michel Goulet

1.18 Pat Patriot - C Phil Esposito

1.19 Spladow! - D Ray Bourque

1.20 Early_10 - G Patrick Roy

1.21 broncofan - LW Cy Denneny

1.22 Duckboy - D Larry Robinson

1.23 TRE - LW John Bucyk

1.24 Pumpnick – C Bryan Trottier

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=241438good times in that thread

That thread was whack.

 

[SuperJohn96]

when we did an all-time NHL player draft, here was the 1st round:

1.1 hoopsfan/SofaKings - C Wayne Gretzky

1.2 PAO - C Mario Lemieux

1.3 FridayFrenzy - D Bobby Orr

1.4 Nipsey - C Joe Malone

1.5 Northern Voice - RW Maurice Richard

1.6 Sammy3469 - C Newsy Lalonde

1.7 Tremendous Upside - RW Mike Bossy

1.8 DoubleDown - RW Gordie Howe

1.9 RockNRolen - RW Brett Hull

1.10 Borat - D Paul Coffey

1.11 Gordon44 - C Mark Messier

1.12 Parmcat - C Marcel Dionne

1.13 Kraft - RW Guy LaFleur

1.14 Funkley - D Denis Potvin

1.15 mrharrier - RW Jari Kurri

1.16 Rudnicki - G Dominik Hasek

1.17 ThisGuy - LW Michel Goulet

1.18 Pat Patriot - C Phil Esposito

1.19 Spladow! - D Ray Bourque

1.20 Early_10 - G Patrick Roy

1.21 broncofan - LW Cy Denneny

1.22 Duckboy - D Larry Robinson

1.23 TRE - LW John Bucyk

1.24 Pumpnick – C Bryan Trottier

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=241438good times in that thread

That thread was whack.

I am a huge Oilers fan, and even I know Kurri at 1.15 is nuts.And Denis Potvin over Roy is just ridiculous. Roy carried teams who had no business winning, and Potvin was just a cog in a dynasty.

Gimme a break.

Oh, and of course I voted for Gretz.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

#99 had 50 hat tricks.

 

[HellToupee]

when we did an all-time NHL player draft, here was the 1st round:

1.1 hoopsfan/SofaKings - C Wayne Gretzky

1.2 PAO - C Mario Lemieux

1.3 FridayFrenzy - D Bobby Orr

1.4 Nipsey - C Joe Malone

1.5 Northern Voice - RW Maurice Richard

1.6 Sammy3469 - C Newsy Lalonde

1.7 Tremendous Upside - RW Mike Bossy

1.8 DoubleDown - RW Gordie Howe

1.9 RockNRolen - RW Brett Hull

1.10 Borat - D Paul Coffey

1.11 Gordon44 - C Mark Messier

1.12 Parmcat - C Marcel Dionne

1.13 Kraft - RW Guy LaFleur

1.14 Funkley - D Denis Potvin

1.15 mrharrier - RW Jari Kurri

1.16 Rudnicki - G Dominik Hasek

1.17 ThisGuy - LW Michel Goulet

1.18 Pat Patriot - C Phil Esposito

1.19 Spladow! - D Ray Bourque

1.20 Early_10 - G Patrick Roy

1.21 broncofan - LW Cy Denneny

1.22 Duckboy - D Larry Robinson

1.23 TRE - LW John Bucyk

1.24 Pumpnick – C Bryan Trottier

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=241438good times in that thread

Paul Coffey before Bourque,Potvin ,Robinson & others

 

[HellToupee]

when we did an all-time NHL player draft, here was the 1st round:

1.1 hoopsfan/SofaKings - C Wayne Gretzky

1.2 PAO - C Mario Lemieux

1.3 FridayFrenzy - D Bobby Orr

1.4 Nipsey - C Joe Malone

1.5 Northern Voice - RW Maurice Richard

1.6 Sammy3469 - C Newsy Lalonde

1.7 Tremendous Upside - RW Mike Bossy

1.8 DoubleDown - RW Gordie Howe

1.9 RockNRolen - RW Brett Hull

1.10 Borat - D Paul Coffey

1.11 Gordon44 - C Mark Messier

1.12 Parmcat - C Marcel Dionne

1.13 Kraft - RW Guy LaFleur

1.14 Funkley - D Denis Potvin

1.15 mrharrier - RW Jari Kurri

1.16 Rudnicki - G Dominik Hasek

1.17 ThisGuy - LW Michel Goulet

1.18 Pat Patriot - C Phil Esposito

1.19 Spladow! - D Ray Bourque

1.20 Early_10 - G Patrick Roy

1.21 broncofan - LW Cy Denneny

1.22 Duckboy - D Larry Robinson

1.23 TRE - LW John Bucyk

1.24 Pumpnick – C Bryan Trottier

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=241438good times in that thread

That thread was whack.

I am a huge Oilers fan, and even I know Kurri at 1.15 is nuts.And Denis Potvin over Roy is just ridiculous. Roy carried teams who had no business winning, and Potvin was just a cog in a dynasty.

Gimme a break.

I'm with you on Roy but gimme a break about Potvin being nothing more than just a cog in a dynasty

 

[HellToupee]

1-Great One

2-#4

3-Mario

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

FWIW, we drafted and then simmed the league at WhatIfSports. Player performance in the sim was based heavily on the player's best season so some guys with amazing seasons were drafted higher than players who had a better overall career. Also, some teams put more emphasis on the sim than others.

 

[Cavalier]

when we did an all-time NHL player draft, here was the 1st round:

1.1 hoopsfan/SofaKings - C Wayne Gretzky

1.2 PAO - C Mario Lemieux

1.3 FridayFrenzy - D Bobby Orr

1.4 Nipsey - C Joe Malone

1.5 Northern Voice - RW Maurice Richard

1.6 Sammy3469 - C Newsy Lalonde

1.7 Tremendous Upside - RW Mike Bossy

1.8 DoubleDown - RW Gordie Howe

1.9 RockNRolen - RW Brett Hull

1.10 Borat - D Paul Coffey

1.11 Gordon44 - C Mark Messier

1.12 Parmcat - C Marcel Dionne

1.13 Kraft - RW Guy LaFleur

1.14 Funkley - D Denis Potvin

1.15 mrharrier - RW Jari Kurri

1.16 Rudnicki - G Dominik Hasek

1.17 ThisGuy - LW Michel Goulet

1.18 Pat Patriot - C Phil Esposito

1.19 Spladow! - D Ray Bourque

1.20 Early_10 - G Patrick Roy

1.21 broncofan - LW Cy Denneny

1.22 Duckboy - D Larry Robinson

1.23 TRE - LW John Bucyk

1.24 Pumpnick – C Bryan Trottier

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=241438good times in that thread

Paul Coffey before Bourque,Potvin ,Robinson & others

Where did Francis go?

 

[HellToupee]

FWIW, we drafted and then simmed the league at WhatIfSports. Player performance in the sim was based heavily on the player's best season so some guys with amazing seasons were drafted higher than players who had a better overall career. Also, some teams put more emphasis on the sim than others.

Good info. That makes the whole draft different

 

[Ghost Rider]

Aaron Rudnicki, considering you were one of the ones arguing in Super Mario's favor yesterday, nice hijack here, to take attention away from The Great One's dominance.

 

[Reg Lllama of Brixton]

when we did an all-time NHL player draft, here was the 1st round:

1.1 hoopsfan/SofaKings - C Wayne Gretzky

1.2 PAO - C Mario Lemieux

1.3 FridayFrenzy - D Bobby Orr

1.4 Nipsey - C Joe Malone

1.5 Northern Voice - RW Maurice Richard

1.6 Sammy3469 - C Newsy Lalonde

1.7 Tremendous Upside - RW Mike Bossy

1.8 DoubleDown - RW Gordie Howe

1.9 RockNRolen - RW Brett Hull

1.10 Borat - D Paul Coffey

1.11 Gordon44 - C Mark Messier

1.12 Parmcat - C Marcel Dionne

1.13 Kraft - RW Guy LaFleur

1.14 Funkley - D Denis Potvin

1.15 mrharrier - RW Jari Kurri

1.16 Rudnicki - G Dominik Hasek

1.17 ThisGuy - LW Michel Goulet

1.18 Pat Patriot - C Phil Esposito

1.19 Spladow! - D Ray Bourque

1.20 Early_10 - G Patrick Roy

1.21 broncofan - LW Cy Denneny

1.22 Duckboy - D Larry Robinson

1.23 TRE - LW John Bucyk

1.24 Pumpnick – C Bryan Trottier

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=241438good times in that thread

That thread was whack.

I am a huge Oilers fan, and even I know Kurri at 1.15 is nuts.And Denis Potvin over Roy is just ridiculous. Roy carried teams who had no business winning, and Potvin was just a cog in a dynasty.

Gimme a break.

Oh, and of course I voted for Gretz.

No it was whack because Rude wouldn't let me play.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Aaron Rudnicki, considering you were one of the ones arguing in Super Mario's favor yesterday, nice hijack here, to take attention away from The Great One's dominance.

I believe your quote regarding Mario's case for being the best ever was "no way, no how."if that's true, how is he getting any votes in this poll?

 

[HellToupee]

when we did an all-time NHL player draft, here was the 1st round:

1.1 hoopsfan/SofaKings - C Wayne Gretzky

1.2 PAO - C Mario Lemieux

1.3 FridayFrenzy - D Bobby Orr

1.4 Nipsey - C Joe Malone

1.5 Northern Voice - RW Maurice Richard

1.6 Sammy3469 - C Newsy Lalonde

1.7 Tremendous Upside - RW Mike Bossy

1.8 DoubleDown - RW Gordie Howe

1.9 RockNRolen - RW Brett Hull

1.10 Borat - D Paul Coffey

1.11 Gordon44 - C Mark Messier

1.12 Parmcat - C Marcel Dionne

1.13 Kraft - RW Guy LaFleur

1.14 Funkley - D Denis Potvin

1.15 mrharrier - RW Jari Kurri

1.16 Rudnicki - G Dominik Hasek

1.17 ThisGuy - LW Michel Goulet

1.18 Pat Patriot - C Phil Esposito

1.19 Spladow! - D Ray Bourque

1.20 Early_10 - G Patrick Roy

1.21 broncofan - LW Cy Denneny

1.22 Duckboy - D Larry Robinson

1.23 TRE - LW John Bucyk

1.24 Pumpnick – C Bryan Trottier

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=241438good times in that thread

Paul Coffey before Bourque,Potvin ,Robinson & others

Where did Francis go?

2.5 Early10 - C Ron Francisbefore Yzerman

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Where did Francis go?

the link has the entire draft, but since you asked here is round 2

2.1 Pumpnick - LW Luc Robitaille2.2 TRE - C Cooney Weiland2.3 Duckboy - D Doug Harvey2.4 broncofan - LW Bobby Hull2.5 Early10 - C Ron Francis2.6 Spladow! - C Steve Yzerman2.7 Pat Patriot - G Ken Dryden2.8 ThisGuy - D Brian Leetch2.9 Rudnicki - D Al MacInnis2.10 mrharrier - C Frank Nighbor2.11 Funkley - C Jean Ratelle2.12 Kraft - C Adam Oates2.13 Parmcat - G Terry Sawchuk2.14 Gordon44 - LW Steve Shutt2.15 Borat - G Roberto Luongo2.16 RockNRolen - C Pat LaFontaine2.17 DoubleDown- C Howie Morenz2.18 Tremendous Upside - D Guy LaPointe2.19 Sammy3469- RW Punch Broadbent2.20 Northern Voice - C Bobby Clarke2.21 Nipsey - C Reg Noble2.22 FridayFrenzy - D Mark Howe2.23 PAO - G Martin Brodeur2.24 hoopsfan/SofaKings - RW Alexander Mogilny

 

[HellToupee]

Aaron Rudnicki, considering you were one of the ones arguing in Super Mario's favor yesterday, nice hijack here, to take attention away from The Great One's dominance.

When you look at both side by side you'd pick Mario but Gretzky was magical in so many ways.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Aaron Rudnicki, considering you were one of the ones arguing in Super Mario's favor yesterday, nice hijack here, to take attention away from The Great One's dominance.

I believe your quote regarding Mario's case for being the best ever was "no way, no how."if that's true, how is he getting any votes in this poll?

Because some of you are delusional?

When you look at both side by side you'd pick Mario

:X

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Career Goals Created Per Game

NHL Leaders

Rank Player GC/G

1. Mario Lemieux* 0.710

2. Cy Denneny* 0.695

3. Wayne Gretzky* 0.685

4. Mike Bossy* 0.616

5. Marcel Dionne* 0.507

6. Howie Morenz* 0.494

7. Bobby Orr* 0.493

8. Phil Esposito* 0.491

9. Pavel Bure 0.474

10. Kent Nilsson 0.472

 

[popeye]

Tough call.

With Lemieux you have health problems and injuries that Gretzky never faced. We'll never know what sort of numbers Mario could have posted. If you go by numbers alone it's Wayne (points and cups).

If you want to vote based on heart, few players in any sport have put up the career Mario did while facing the physical difficulties he had.

I'd lean to Wayne by the slimmest of margins.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Career Goals Created Per Game

NHL Leaders

Rank Player GC/G

1. Mario Lemieux* 0.710

2. Cy Denneny* 0.695

3. Wayne Gretzky* 0.685

4. Mike Bossy* 0.616

5. Marcel Dionne* 0.507

6. Howie Morenz* 0.494

7. Bobby Orr* 0.493

8. Phil Esposito* 0.491

9. Pavel Bure 0.474

10. Kent Nilsson 0.472

I love how you think that one stat somehow makes Mario a better all-time player. Should I mention how if you take away every goal Gretzky ever scored, that he would still be the all-time points scorer in NHL history?

Or the 295 other categories where The Great One destroys Super Mario?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I love how you think that one stat somehow makes Mario a better all-time player. Should I mention how if you take away every goal Gretzky ever scored, that he would still be the all-time points scorer in NHL history? Or the 295 other categories where The Great One destroys Super Mario?

I base it on watching them both play and evaluating their surrounding talent/health, etc.. It's a completely subjective argument as to who someone thinks is the better player. Obviously, Gretzky had the better career but on a per game basis, I think Mario has an edge. Like I've said, if I was picking a player in their prime to win one playoff series, I'd take Mario or Orr over Gretzky.Put Mario on those 80s Oilers teams and he might have scored more than Wayne did. Put Wayne on the Penguins teams in the 80s and there's no way he'd be putting up 200+ points/year. Along with Orr, there are 3 players that have a legit claim on being the best of all time (maybe 4 or 5 if you want to include Howe and Richard). You're the one trying to say that Mario doesn't even belong in the conversation. That's a much harder position to defend, IMO.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Gretzky might be the best playmaker in the history of sports. Lemieux may have been more talented but the career numbers, his impact on the sport (he was Bird, Magic, and Jordan), the maddening 200 point seasons, and the longevity of Gretzky make him the best player ever in hockey IMO.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I love how you think that one stat somehow makes Mario a better all-time player. Should I mention how if you take away every goal Gretzky ever scored, that he would still be the all-time points scorer in NHL history? Or the 295 other categories where The Great One destroys Super Mario?

I base it on watching them both play and evaluating their surrounding talent/health, etc.. It's a completely subjective argument as to who someone thinks is the better player. Obviously, Gretzky had the better career but on a per game basis, I think Mario has an edge.

Sure, if you look at subjectively, an argument can be made for just about anyone, but objectively, it really isn't close. The numbers and accomplishments just aren't comparable.

Put Mario on those 80s Oilers teams and he might have scored more. Put Wayne on the Penguins teams in the 80s and there's no way he'd be putting up 200+ points/year.

Like has been established in the many NFL HOF threads over the years, that is irrelevant. Players are judged accordingly on what they DID do, not what they MIGHT HAVE done. Shoot, I could say that a guy with Brett Hull's scoring abilities would have the best player ever had he played on a team with the talent that Edmonton had, but that really doesn't matter. What matters is what he did do, just like Gretzky and Lemieux.

You're the one trying to say that Mario doesn't even belong in the conversation. That's a much harder position to defend, IMO.

I never said Mario wouldn't be top 10 or top 5 all-time or whatever. I simply said that Gretzky is far and away the best player ever, and that no one else is even close. It is hard for me to judge guys like Orr and Howe, as I never saw them play. But since I have been watching hockey (since the early 80s), Mario has been either the 2nd or 3rd best player (I still say Yzerman is arguably as good, if not better). But 2nd or 3rd best is still a distant 2nd or 3rd best to The Great One.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Like has been established in the many NFL HOF threads over the years, that is irrelevant. Players are judged accordingly on what they DID do, not what they MIGHT HAVE done.

not if the argument is who you think is the better player rather than who had the best career. the best player doesn't always have the best career. these are different arguments, IMnce again, you're the one claiming that Mario isn't even close to Wayne. I don't have any problem with people who say that Wayne was a better player...I just prefer Mario or Orr.

 

[SuperJohn96]

when we did an all-time NHL player draft, here was the 1st round:

1.1 hoopsfan/SofaKings - C Wayne Gretzky

1.2 PAO - C Mario Lemieux

1.3 FridayFrenzy - D Bobby Orr

1.4 Nipsey - C Joe Malone

1.5 Northern Voice - RW Maurice Richard

1.6 Sammy3469 - C Newsy Lalonde

1.7 Tremendous Upside - RW Mike Bossy

1.8 DoubleDown - RW Gordie Howe

1.9 RockNRolen - RW Brett Hull

1.10 Borat - D Paul Coffey

1.11 Gordon44 - C Mark Messier

1.12 Parmcat - C Marcel Dionne

1.13 Kraft - RW Guy LaFleur

1.14 Funkley - D Denis Potvin

1.15 mrharrier - RW Jari Kurri

1.16 Rudnicki - G Dominik Hasek

1.17 ThisGuy - LW Michel Goulet

1.18 Pat Patriot - C Phil Esposito

1.19 Spladow! - D Ray Bourque

1.20 Early_10 - G Patrick Roy

1.21 broncofan - LW Cy Denneny

1.22 Duckboy - D Larry Robinson

1.23 TRE - LW John Bucyk

1.24 Pumpnick – C Bryan Trottier

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...howtopic=241438good times in that thread

That thread was whack.

I am a huge Oilers fan, and even I know Kurri at 1.15 is nuts.And Denis Potvin over Roy is just ridiculous. Roy carried teams who had no business winning, and Potvin was just a cog in a dynasty.

Gimme a break.

I'm with you on Roy but gimme a break about Potvin being nothing more than just a cog in a dynasty

Meh, he was hot for four consecutive Cup wins.Big deal.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Would Orr have been a D man had he played today? I'd say hell no but I wondered what others thought. We don't get many hockey threads around here so I thought I'd stick it in here.

 

[Franknbeans]

Career Goals Created Per Game

NHL Leaders

Rank Player GC/G

1. Mario Lemieux* 0.710

2. Cy Denneny* 0.695

3. Wayne Gretzky* 0.685

4. Mike Bossy* 0.616

5. Marcel Dionne* 0.507

6. Howie Morenz* 0.494

7. Bobby Orr* 0.493

8. Phil Esposito* 0.491

9. Pavel Bure 0.474

10. Kent Nilsson 0.472

I love how you think that one stat somehow makes Mario a better all-time player. Should I mention how if you take away every goal Gretzky ever scored, that he would still be the all-time points scorer in NHL history?

Or the 295 other categories where The Great One destroys Super Mario?

I vote Cy

 

[HellToupee]

Aaron Rudnicki, considering you were one of the ones arguing in Super Mario's favor yesterday, nice hijack here, to take attention away from The Great One's dominance.

I believe your quote regarding Mario's case for being the best ever was "no way, no how."if that's true, how is he getting any votes in this poll?

Because some of you are delusional?

When you look at both side by side you'd pick Mario

I'm picking Gretzky but as far as physical skills go Mario has it over Wayne.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Like has been established in the many NFL HOF threads over the years, that is irrelevant. Players are judged accordingly on what they DID do, not what they MIGHT HAVE done.

not if the argument is who you think is the better player rather than who had the best career. the best player doesn't always have the best career. these are different arguments, IMO.

Okay, but again, that is semantics. Using your better player argument, you could argue that anyone is better than anyone, using the "they didn't have as good a career, but they were a better player" cop-out. All we have to compare players are their accomplishments and their numbers. The eyeball test is more of a subjective matter than an objective one, just like the better player argument.

once again, you're the one claiming that Mario isn't even close to Wayne. I don't have any problem with people who say that Wayne was a better player...I just prefer Mario or Orr.

I don't think anyone is close to Gretzky. I was not and am not insulting Mario at all by saying he is not close to Gretzky.

 

[pizzatyme]

I voted Gretzky. I am honored to have seen his first professional game with the Indianapolis Racers. I was also a season ticket holder for the St. Louis Blues during the Brett Hull era. His 86 goal season was a blast to watch and a great memory!

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Like has been established in the many NFL HOF threads over the years, that is irrelevant. Players are judged accordingly on what they DID do, not what they MIGHT HAVE done.

not if the argument is who you think is the better player rather than who had the best career. the best player doesn't always have the best career. these are different arguments, IMO.

Okay, but again, that is semantics. Using your better player argument, you could argue that anyone is better than anyone, using the "they didn't have as good a career, but they were a better player" cop-out. All we have to compare players are their accomplishments and their numbers. The eyeball test is more of a subjective matter than an objective one, just like the better player argument.

once again, you're the one claiming that Mario isn't even close to Wayne. I don't have any problem with people who say that Wayne was a better player...I just prefer Mario or Orr.

I don't think anyone is close to Gretzky. I was not and am not insulting Mario at all by saying he is not close to Gretzky.

Mario Lemieux is NOT the greatest hockey player ever, as you implied. No way, no how.

And if you even try to argue that he was better than Gretzky, I will laugh in your face.

guess you need to start laughing in the face of 30% of the people who voted so far.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

So who is the better player? That's not as easy a question as it sounds. Gretzky has had the benefit of playing 20 seasons of relatively injury-free hockey and was an integral part of some of the most complete and talented teams in the modern era, firmly establishing himself as the most prolific scorer in NHL history. Lemieux had a much shorter 13-year career but performed at an astounding level when healthy. In light of the dissimilar careers in regards to games played, level of health and supporting cast, pitting Lemieux's productivity and potential against Gretzky's records certainly creates an exciting "what if?" debate for hockey fans

http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/sport...ers/140023.html

 

[Ghost Rider]

guess you need to start laughing in the face of 30% of the people who voted so far.

Voting is not the same as arguing. Anyone can come into this thread, vote, and then leave without giving any kind of argument. Big difference. Besides, I did smile in that original post, because, despite my assertion that Gretzky is much better than any other player including Mario, I was trying to be light-hearted, hence the smiley.

 

[gmbacm]

I love how you think that one stat somehow makes Mario a better all-time player. Should I mention how if you take away every goal Gretzky ever scored, that he would still be the all-time points scorer in NHL history? Or the 295 other categories where The Great One destroys Super Mario?

I base it on watching them both play and evaluating their surrounding talent/health, etc.. It's a completely subjective argument as to who someone thinks is the better player. Obviously, Gretzky had the better career but on a per game basis, I think Mario has an edge. Like I've said, if I was picking a player in their prime to win one playoff series, I'd take Mario or Orr over Gretzky.

I dont think you can judge these two on a per game basis over their careers, as Gretzky played many more games out of his prime due to his longevity and Mario's health problems.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

http://www.doubtaboutit.com/2007/06/by-sam...o-vs-wayne.html

WHO WOULD YOU RATHER START AN NHL FRANCHISE WITH: MARIO LEMIEUX OR WAYNE GRETZKY?

If your bias-alert sensors aren’t going off, you should probably take them down to the shop and get ‘em checked out. I’ve been playing devil’s advocate to Gretzky supporters for years now, smoothly navigating around recitations of Gretzky’s stats and records as if they were cans of Iron City in a Heinz Field parking lot. Naturally, Gretzky’s numbers look better – his prime coincided with a booming offensive era in the NHL, he played longer than Lemieux, he was rarely injured, and he almost always was surrounded by superstars.

Yet Gretzky’s advantage in a statistical analysis is not as drastic as many might contend. Gretzky averaged roughly 1.92 points/game during his career while Lemieux averaged 1.88 (if you take out Lemieux’s final season with the abysmal ’05-06 squad, then it is 1.90).

Most Lemieux supporters will always point out that the difference in points is largely due to the fact that Gretzky always played with superstars, to which I usually respond: ever heard of Jagr? Stevens? Tocchet? Mullen? Coffey? Murphy? Francis? There is some truth to such logic, however. Consider that in Gretzky’s signature season, his 215 point ’85-86 campaign, his teammates Paul Coffey and Jari Kurri were third and fourth in scoring, obviously aided by Gretzky but clearly no slouches themselves. When Mario scored 199 points in ’88-89, he made ROB BROWN THE FIFTH HIGHEST SCORER IN THE LEAGUE WITH 115 POINTS. Rob Brown – the same man who would be playing in the IHL within six years.

Furthermore, the stats are somewhat a moot point because of the way injuries didn’t merely hamper Mario’s career, but hampered him in his prime. From 1989-1994, or in other words from when Lemieux was 24 to when he was 29, Mario averaged 46.2 games a season. Mario didn’t even play in ’94-’95, a summer-time announcement that made me sit in my front yard looking like Ike Taylor after another fade-route TD. Playing half-seasons in your prime is no way to catch the game’s all-time leading scorer, yet Mario still managed to put up huge numbers. His 199 point season was done in 76 games while his 160 points ’92-93 season was done in a mere 60.

Thus, if one is to award a statistical analysis in Gretzky’s favor, it must be done so with an asterisk. Whereas both superstars witness a decline in production in their later years, Lemieux’s statistical decline does not benefit from consistently gaudy numbers from his prime to pad his stats.

The question at hand, however, is not one merely of statistics, but instead one concerning whom to choose as a centerpiece of a franchise. Sure, Gretzky’s stats are more outlandish, but, like Mario, did he have 13 short-handed goals in ’88-89, playing on the penalty kill in addition to fluffing up stats on the power play? No – he put up some stellar shorthanded statistics earlier in his career, but eventually settled for setting up shop in the corner. Ever seen a highlight of 99 breaking up a pass from Adam Oates on the penalty kill, taking it one on two against Oates and Ray Bourque, scooting the puck through Raymond’s legs and beating Andy Moog top shelf? These were the types of things Mario provided: mainly, an incredible ability to disrupt play on the defensive end and swiftly switch gears into a mesmerizing, full throttle offensive attack. Not saying Wayne couldn’t and didn’t do such things, but even in the wake of Sidney Crosby becoming a once-in-a-lifetime player, you constantly hear hockey fans discussing if he should be playing the penalty kill like Lemieux, if he should be playing, as Mario did, all facets of the game to help his team.

Along the same lines of helping the team, it is possibly worth considering how often each player made the playoffs. Wayne has a clear edge here, though the fact that he made the playoffs every year with the Oilers is in large part due to how well constructed those Oilers teams were in the pre-free agency NHL. Strangely enough though, Wayne missed the playoffs with the Kings for three straight after making the Cup finals in ’92-93. Mario missed the playoffs five times in the ‘80s with simply atrocious Pens teams, and missed them four times in the ‘00s with similarly bad teams. The conclusion then seems to be simple: when Wayne and Mario were on great teams, they made the playoffs, and when they were on bad teams (or in Wayne’s case a Kings team that grew dysfunctional and old) they didn’t make the playoffs.

To recap up to this point, Gretzky has an asterisked edge in stats, Mario a slight and biased edge in non-scoring related play, and Gretzky a slim though perhaps unimportant advantage in leading a team to the playoffs (hockey isn’t like basketball where one superstar can lead a crappy team to the playoffs; for proof, see: 2007 Cleveland Cavaliers, almost unquestionably the most-painful-to-watch starting five in NBA Finals history).

For me, the clincher in such a close comparison is the image/cultural impact factor. If I own a hockey team, which guy do I more want to be the face of my franchise? Who will have a bigger cultural impact in the region?

One of the most unrecognized achievements of Gretzky’s career is the fact that he infused hockey culture into California. Say what you want about the hockey knowledge of the West Coast, but the fact remains that when Gretzky was traded to the Kings, he not only reenergized the Kings fan-base, but one could argue that he spurred on enough interest to aid the movement of hockey teams to San Jose and Anaheim. Before the trade, the idea of three hockey teams in California would likely seem preposterous. Now the Sharks are seemingly yearly contenders and the Ducks are fresh off a Stanley cup victory.

As for Lemieux…well, don’t we all know the story? Turned Pittsburgh into a legitimate hockey town, won two cups, vitalized youth hockey in Pittsburgh, saved the franchise by buying the team rather than simply cashing in off it, un-retired to help boost the squad to the conference finals, made a consistent, genuine, and ultimately successful effort to keep the team in Pittsburgh rather than cashing in and jumping town….

Speaking of jumping town, what about Gretzky? For being “The Great One”, he has a bit of Roger Clemens in him, doesn’t he? He bolted Canada, where he could have lived out his career and had a lifetime of free Molsons and Labatts, so that he could go to L.A. (supposedly to help bolster his wife’s acting career, but I will try very hard to consider that a rumor and not hold it against him). Then he played for the Blues, and then ended with the Rangers. And, oh yeah, now he coaches the Coyotes.

To me, it seems like Gretzky got a free pass from fan bases, much like Clemens does today. The greatest hockey player of all time played for FOUR organizations? Has that ever happened in any sport? Not that Wayne doesn’t still mean a lot to Edmonton, but good Lord, could you imagine if he had done for Edmonton what Lemieux did for Pittsburgh?

Every time I hear the “franchise starter” debate on Sportscenter or a blog or wherever, it normally focuses on how Lebron is a better teammate that Kobe, or how LaDainian is a valuable asset to both the passing game and running game, making him more valuable. Well would so-and-so athlete live year round in the city of the team? Forfeit a huge paycheck to buy the team? Un-retire for the team? Forfeit a payday AGAIN out of loyalty and love for the region?

Call me a homer and a purist, but I want my franchise guy to BE the franchise and to BE it forever. 99’s stats might be better and his records list might be longer, but so is the list of teams he played for. If I want to start a franchise, I want a versatile super-star committed to the cause.

 

[HellToupee]

Would Orr have been a D man had he played today? I'd say hell no but I wondered what others thought. We don't get many hockey threads around here so I thought I'd stick it in here.

Why not and why was he a D man in an era of stay at home dmen. He would be unique today as he was then.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I dont think you can judge these two on a per game basis over their careers, as Gretzky played many more games out of his prime due to his longevity and Mario's health problems.

Agreed, for the most part. I mean, Gretzky played well over 500 more regular season games than Mario did. That is the equivalent of 6+ more seasons. And Wayne's goal-scoring really tailed off in his mid to late 30s, but he was still a playmaking machine. Heck, he led the league in assists in two of his last three seasons, at the ages of 36 and 37.

 

[Tom Servo]

It's Mario for me. To say he's not even in the conversation in the top 2 or 3 is ridiculous.

Besides, he scored goals all five ways possible...in one game.

 

[Ghost Rider]

It's Mario for me. To say he's not even in the conversation in the top 2 or 3 is ridiculous.

No one said that.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

http://national-hockey-league-nhl.suite101...tzky_or_lemieux

The Greatest One – Gretzky or Lemieux?

Comparing NHL All-Time Scoring Stats

Gretzky’s scoring exploits are legendary. He’s the NHL’s all-time leader in every major statistical category, and his 2,857 career points are 980 more than his nearest competitor. Yet had it not been for poor health, Lemieux could have toppled all Gretzky’s seemingly unreachable records.

Lemieux, who finished his storied career with 690 goals and 1,723 points, lost valuable years from his prime due to a chronic bad back and a battle with cancer. His health woes forced him to retire in 1997, and he did so with a 2.01 points-per-game average, the highest in NHL history. He made a dramatic return three and a half years later to keep the struggling Pittsburgh Penguins franchise afloat, but his advanced age and ongoing health problems combined to lower his per-game scoring average to 1.88 points, dropping him below Gretzky's 1.92 career average.

Gretzky's Stats Inflated Due to Era

Yes, Gretzky’s advantage in raw numbers is unmistakable. But hockey pundits often overlook the fact it was much easier to score goals in the early 1980s when Gretzky and the Edmonton Oilers were running roughshod over the league.

The five highest-scoring seasons in NHL history occurred between 1981 and 1986. During that five-year span, Gretzky amassed a staggering 375 goals and 1,036 points in 394 games, recording a remarkable 2.63 points-per-game.

But here’s the dirty little secret. The league averaged a ridiculous 7.87 goals per game during that five-year stretch. To put that number in perspective, in 2007-08, the NHL averaged 5.57 goals per game.

In 1985-86, with the league registering 7.94 goals per contest, Gretzky established the NHL single-season scoring record with 215 points.

Lemieux's Stats and Best Season

In 1988-89, Lemieux had his best full season, ringing up 85 goals and 199 points. That year, the league averaged 7.48 goals per game, off 5.8 percent from 1985-86. Adjust Lemieux’s numbers accordingly, and he would have put up 222 points over 80 games.

In 1992-93, Lemieux had a truly magical season, fighting through cancer to produce 69 goals and 160 points in just 60 games. His 2.67 points-per-game clip rivaled Gretzky’s 2.69 standard from 1985-86, except the league averaged only 7.25 goals per game in 1992-93, down 8.7 percent from Gretzky’s record-setting season. Once again, adjust Lemieux’s numbers to 1985-86 terms, and he would have accumulated 232 points over 80 games.

However, Lemieux’s greatest on-ice challenge could have been in 1995-96. Because of expansion and the dreaded neutral zone trap, scoring was down across the league, falling to a paltry 6.29 goals per game. Undaunted, Lemieux still managed 69 goals and 161 points in 70 contests. In 1985-86 numbers, Lemieux’s total would have been worth 223 points over 80 games.

Conversely, take Gretzky’s 215-point pace and put it in the context of 1995-96, and he would have had 148 points over the same 70 games it took Lemieux to record 161.

Gretzky's and Lemieux's PPG in Today's NHL

Adjust both players’ stats to the current 2008-09 goals-per-game average of 5.82, and Gretzky would have a 1.56 career points-per-game mark, while Lemieux would check in at 1.61.

Whether one prefers Gretzky or Lemieux is a matter of opinion. What can’t be argued is Gretzky dominated in an era when it was far easier to score goals. And when the stats are adjusted to reflect the changing league conditions, Lemieux’s numbers are superior. If not for Lemieux’s troubled health, there would be no debate.

 

[Tom Servo]

It's Mario for me. To say he's not even in the conversation in the top 2 or 3 is ridiculous.

No one said that.

Apparently you did. That's how I read it.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Would Orr have been a D man had he played today? I'd say hell no but I wondered what others thought. We don't get many hockey threads around here so I thought I'd stick it in here.

Why not and why was he a D man in an era of stay at home dmen. He would be unique today as he was then.

I think he'd be a center in today's game. He basically looked like the guy on the pond that was so much better than everyone else just grabbing the puck deep in the zone and taking it the other way for a shot. I'm just asking the question, but regardless I don't think there was ever a player that could do what he did with that kind of physical ability so I guess it really wouldn't matter what position he played. They probably should just call the position "Orr left" if we ever get someone anything like that again. Also wanted to add that Mike Bossy was a sick goal scorer, maybe better than anyone at that one skill.

 

[HellToupee]

there should be no denying that if both were coming out of JRs today the draft would go Mario -1 & Gretzky-2. Doesn't make it right

 

[gmbacm]

I love how you think that one stat somehow makes Mario a better all-time player.

Should I mention how if you take away every goal Gretzky ever scored, that he would still be the all-time points scorer in NHL history?

Or the 295 other categories where The Great One destroys Super Mario?

I base it on watching them both play and evaluating their surrounding talent/health, etc.. It's a completely subjective argument as to who someone thinks is the better player. Obviously, Gretzky had the better career but on a per game basis, I think Mario has an edge. Like I've said, if I was picking a player in their prime to win one playoff series, I'd take Mario or Orr over Gretzky.

I dont think you can judge these two on a per game basis over their careers, as Gretzky played many more games out of his prime due to his longevity and Mario's health problems.

their careers overlapped from 1984 to 1997.

to try and exclude any differences in eras, if you just compare their numbers from all games played during those specific years in the regular season and playoffs combined, here is what the comparison looks like:

Wayne Gretzky: 1178 games, 612 goals, 1554 assists, 2166 points, 1.839 pts/game

Mario Lemieux: 834 games, 683 goals, 966 assists, 1649 points, 1.977 pts/game

note that Wayne was 24 and playing on a perennial Cup contender when that period began while Mario was only 19 and playing on a team that was years away from contending.

I like what you were doing here but as was pointed out in the previous thread its flawed due to different ages of the two. I think a better approach would be to use stats from when their careers overlapped, and they were the same ages.Careers overlapped from 84-97. Gretzky was 24 in 84-85. Mario is 4 years older so start his stats from 88-89.

They played together till 96-97. So use Marios stats from 88-89 through 96-97. 8 seasons. So use Gretzky's stats for 8 years, 84-85 through 91-92.

This will give you 8 years for each player, when they were the same age (24-32) in what is considered their prime, and playing players from the same era.

Where did you get the above stats from? Id like to plug them in this way and see what comes out.

 

[Ghost Rider]

It's Mario for me. To say he's not even in the conversation in the top 2 or 3 is ridiculous.

No one said that.

Apparently you did. That's how I read it.

You read it wrong. I have repeatedly inferred that he is in the conversation of "best ever" behind Gretzky. I just think that Gretzky is far and away the best ever.