Wayne Gretzky vs. Mario Lemieux (1 Viewer)

[HellToupee]

Would Orr have been a D man had he played today? I'd say hell no but I wondered what others thought. We don't get many hockey threads around here so I thought I'd stick it in here.

Why not and why was he a D man in an era of stay at home dmen. He would be unique today as he was then.

I think he'd be a center in today's game. He basically looked like the guy on the pond that was so much better than everyone else just grabbing the puck deep in the zone and taking it the other way for a shot. I'm just asking the question, but regardless I don't think there was ever a player that could do what he did with that kind of physical ability so I guess it really wouldn't matter what position he played. They probably should just call the position "Orr left" if we ever get someone anything like that again.

I don't think we'll ever see an Orr again. A lot of teams would dump the puck in his corner and forced him to beat 2 men or pass off. Highlights don't really show all he could do as he would make plays that others couldn't imagine, his game vision was incredible & he would see possibilities on the ice that wouldn't occur to 99.9% of players. He was much like Gretzky in that way.An interesting Orr stat. Bobby averaged 1.4 ppg but he also averaged 1.4 pims

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Careers overlapped from 84-97. Gretzky was 24 in 84-85. Mario is 4 years older so start his stats from 88-89.They played together till 96-97. So use Marios stats from 88-89 through 96-97. 8 seasons. So use Gretzky's stats for 8 years, 84-85 through 91-92.This will give you 8 years for each player, when they were the same age (24-32) in what is considered their prime, and playing players from the same era.Where did you get the above stats from? Id like to plug them in this way and see what comes out.

here is what I come up with (using regular season and playoff games combined)Mario (1988 to 1997): 542 games, 468 goals (.86/game), 665 assists (1.23/game), 1133 points (2.09/game)Wayne (1984 to 1992): 710 games, 449 goals (.63/game), 1097 assists (1.55/game), 1546 points (2.18/game)data is from hockey-reference.com. I just put it into an excel spreadsheet.obviously, Mario has a big edge in goals and Wayne has a big edge in assists.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Careers overlapped from 84-97. Gretzky was 24 in 84-85. Mario is 4 years older so start his stats from 88-89.They played together till 96-97. So use Marios stats from 88-89 through 96-97. 8 seasons. So use Gretzky's stats for 8 years, 84-85 through 91-92.This will give you 8 years for each player, when they were the same age (24-32) in what is considered their prime, and playing players from the same era.Where did you get the above stats from? Id like to plug them in this way and see what comes out.

here is what I come up with (using regular season and playoff games combined)Mario (1988 to 1997): 542 games, 468 goals (.86/game), 665 assists (1.23/game), 1133 points (2.09/game)Wayne (1984 to 1992): 710 games, 449 goals (.63/game), 1097 assists (1.55/game), 1546 points (2.18 /game)

Interesting numbers, but it ignores the fact that Wayne hit his prime before the age of 24. By leaving out his seasons prior to '84, you are leaving out seasons where he totaled 137, 164, 212 and 196 points! He was a stud the minute he hit the league, and you cannot ignore those early years simply because 24-32 is when most players are in their prime. The fact that Gretzky's prime was so much longer is a big reason why he is the best ever.And for some perspective, leaving the seasons you counted out of the equation, Mario's best season not from those years isn't as good as Wayne's best three seasons not from those years.

 

[dgreen]

Lemieux, who finished his storied career with 690 goals and 1,723 points, lost valuable years from his prime due to a chronic bad back and a battle with cancer. His health woes forced him to retire in 1997, and he did so with a 2.01 points-per-game average, the highest in NHL history. He made a dramatic return three and a half years later to keep the struggling Pittsburgh Penguins franchise afloat, but his advanced age and ongoing health problems combined to lower his per-game scoring average to 1.88 points, dropping him below Gretzky's 1.92 career average.

Why explain away Lemieux's drop in PPG and not Gretzky's? Sure, Gretzky didn't have to fight cancer or a bad back, but he was a significantly different player those last few seasons. His physical skills had diminished and so did his PPG.

But here’s the dirty little secret. The league averaged a ridiculous 7.87 goals per game during that five-year stretch. To put that number in perspective, in 2007-08, the NHL averaged 5.57 goals per game.In 1985-86, with the league registering 7.94 goals per contest, Gretzky established the NHL single-season scoring record with 215 points.

Cause and effect. Did the league record highs cause Gretzky's records or did Gretzky's records contribute to the league record highs? No, I'm not suggesting Gretzky alone accounted for over a 2 goals per game difference across the entire league. But, I'd bet he was a huge factor. What was league scoring like before Gretzky?Even if it was the league that caused Gretzky's great numbers, it appears Gretzky outpaced the rest of that great league by more than Lemieux did. But, I'm not certain on that. I just took a quick glance at the yearly leaders.

 

[dgreen]

obviously, Mario has a big edge in goals and Wayne has a big edge in assists.

Is this where Penguins fans start talking about how much more important goals are than assists?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Would Orr have been a D man had he played today? I'd say hell no but I wondered what others thought. We don't get many hockey threads around here so I thought I'd stick it in here.

Why not and why was he a D man in an era of stay at home dmen. He would be unique today as he was then.

I think he'd be a center in today's game. He basically looked like the guy on the pond that was so much better than everyone else just grabbing the puck deep in the zone and taking it the other way for a shot. I'm just asking the question, but regardless I don't think there was ever a player that could do what he did with that kind of physical ability so I guess it really wouldn't matter what position he played. They probably should just call the position "Orr left" if we ever get someone anything like that again.

I don't think we'll ever see an Orr again. A lot of teams would dump the puck in his corner and forced him to beat 2 men or pass off. Highlights don't really show all he could do as he would make plays that others couldn't imagine, his game vision was incredible & he would see possibilities on the ice that wouldn't occur to 99.9% of players. He was much like Gretzky in that way.An interesting Orr stat. Bobby averaged 1.4 ppg but he also averaged 1.4 pims

That was pretty much where I was going with the question I asked. In today's game maybe he would be a hybrid D on PP, QB on PP, Center/power forward for games in which his team was +/- 1 goal in, and a defensive stopper if they were up by 2+ goals. He would be listed in Yahoo as RW/LW/C/D.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

obviously, Mario has a big edge in goals and Wayne has a big edge in assists.

Is this where Penguins fans start talking about how much more important goals are than assists?

considering they hand out 2 assists per goal scored, I don't think that's a tough argument to make.

 

[Copeman]

They both were great. Hard to argue using stats and such because of the difference in teams, teammates, etc.....

Gretzky was more of a playmaker, Mario more of a scorer.

But they both also excelled at both playmaking and scoring.

This is hard to debate, and you pretty much have to have seen them both play and make your own decision. Can't go wrong with either.

My vote goes to Mario because he made a name for himself in the beginning on some horrid teams, and he came back from so many health issues to play at a high level, and, well, saved hockey in Pittsburgh. That is fact. For me, that is more than enough for him to get my vote. Can't think of too many athletes who have done the same.

 

[Ghost Rider]

obviously, Mario has a big edge in goals and Wayne has a big edge in assists.

Is this where Penguins fans start talking about how much more important goals are than assists?

That wouldn't help their cause, either, as Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer ever, he was a better goal scorer in his prime than Mario was in his prime (4 seasons of 70 goals or more vs. 2 for Mario), and, interestingly, Mario only led the NHL in goals scored three times during his long career. Gretzky did it five times.

 

[dgreen]

obviously, Mario has a big edge in goals and Wayne has a big edge in assists.

Is this where Penguins fans start talking about how much more important goals are than assists?

considering they hand out 2 assists per goal scored, I don't think that's a tough argument to make.

I'm referring to the previous Malkin-Crosby-Ovechkin debates where Penguins fans (ok, maybe just one) refused to say that goals>assists.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I'm referring to the previous Malkin-Crosby-Ovechkin debates where Penguins fans (ok, maybe just one) refused to say that goals>assists.

I know. Those arguments get tiresome b/c they seem to change their opinion in whatever way makes the Penguins player look better.

 

[guru_007]

I base it on watching them both play and evaluating their surrounding talent/health, etc.. It's a completely subjective argument as to who someone thinks is the better player. Obviously, Gretzky had the better career but on a per game basis, I think Mario has an edge. Like I've said, if I was picking a player in their prime to win one playoff series, I'd take Mario or Orr over Gretzky.

agree with it being completely subjectivedisagree on the fact if you had to choose one player to win a playoff series, you'd pick anyone over Gretzky.Gretzky in 202 playoff games scored 122 goals and had 260 assists (1.83 points per game). He was awesome in the playoffs (and his shooting percentage was near 20% - he did not shoot too much). Lemieux had 76 goals and 96 assists in 107 playoff games (1.60 ppg). He was very good in the playoffs but not Gretzky good.I get that Lemieux could kind of take over a game, probably more so than Gretzky on a limited basis, but Gretzky was excellent all the time. Lemieux's size enabled him to do things Gretzky couldn't, but that should not take away from the way Gretzky dominated/revolutionized the game.I can see an argument for Lemieux, however, I just think Gretzky was better. He made the team around him better also, imo.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

People keep saying all this stuff about Lemieux having to come in and play on horrible teams. Do you realize that Edmonton was an expansion team in Gretzky's rookie year?

Also Messier, Kurri, Glenn Anderson, and Coffey were rookies the next year. It wasn't like Edmonton was blessed with vet superstars and all those guys benefitted much more from Gretzky than he did from them. He would have scored 150 points with a bunch of FBG guys on his team.

 

[gmbacm]

Careers overlapped from 84-97. Gretzky was 24 in 84-85. Mario is 4 years older so start his stats from 88-89.They played together till 96-97. So use Marios stats from 88-89 through 96-97. 8 seasons. So use Gretzky's stats for 8 years, 84-85 through 91-92.This will give you 8 years for each player, when they were the same age (24-32) in what is considered their prime, and playing players from the same era.Where did you get the above stats from? Id like to plug them in this way and see what comes out.

here is what I come up with (using regular season and playoff games combined)Mario (1988 to 1997): 542 games, 468 goals (.86/game), 665 assists (1.23/game), 1133 points (2.09/game)Wayne (1984 to 1992): 710 games, 449 goals (.63/game), 1097 assists (1.55/game), 1546 points (2.18/game)data is from hockey-reference.com. I just put it into an excel spreadsheet.obviously, Mario has a big edge in goals and Wayne has a big edge in assists.

Thanks Aaron. Closer then I thought it would be over that stretch. Does solidify a vote for Gretzky though IMO considering it doesnt count 3 of his top 5 seasons

 

[guru_007]

Gretzky was more of a playmaker, Mario more of a scorer.

imo, this is a total misconception based on the very limited coverage hockey had in the beginning of Gretzky's career and the fact most people remember the last 6-7 years of Gretzky's career more so than the beginning.Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer in NHL history.From the beginning of his NHL career, Gretzky scored at least 50 goals, in his first 8 years, including seasons of 92, 71, 87 & 73 (that was in a 4-year stretch no less).Lemieux scored at least 50 goals 6 times in his career and only broke 70 goals once.No one was more of a scorer than Gretzky.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

People keep saying all this stuff about Lemieux having to come in and play on horrible teams. Do you realize that Edmonton was an expansion team in Gretzky's rookie year?

they weren't bad for very long though.

The Oilers lost most of the players from 1978–79 when the NHL held a reclamation draft of players who had bolted to the upstart league. They were allowed to protect two players and two skill players, including Gretzky.

However, GM/coach Glen Sather carefully restocked the roster in the expansion draft. He later said that out of 761 players on the draft list, only 53 really interested him. He concentrated on drafting free agents, since the Oilers would get compensation if they signed somewhere else. He estimated that this saved the Oilers as much as $500,000 that could be used in the Entry Draft.[4]

This strategy allowed the Oilers to put together a fairly respectable team quickly. In marked contrast, the Jets finished dead last in the league two years in a row. The Oilers benefited from an early run of success in the Entry Draft. Within three years, Sather and chief scout Barry Fraser bagged an outstanding core of young players, including Mark Messier, Glenn Anderson, Jari Kurri, Paul Coffey, Kevin Lowe, Grant Fuhr and Andy Moog.

Blessed with an abundance of speed and skill and given room to grow by Sather, this impressive group of young talent matured into one of the greatest teams in hockey history, dominating the NHL in the mid-to-late 1980s. Many experts consider the Oilers from that decade not only to be the best team ever in the long history of the NHL, but also one of the best sports teams ever, as evidenced by a recent Sporting News poll in February 2006 when the 1987–88 Oilers were listed as one of the top-five teams from the last 120 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmonton_Oilers

 

[Copeman]

It's a good thing we have career stats. It makes it easy to figure out who was the best of all time in any sport.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Gretzky was more of a playmaker, Mario more of a scorer.

imo, this is a total misconception based on the very limited coverage hockey had in the beginning of Gretzky's career and the fact most people remember the last 6-7 years of Gretzky's career more so than the beginning.Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer in NHL history.From the beginning of his NHL career, Gretzky scored at least 50 goals, in his first 8 years, including seasons of 92, 71, 87 & 73 (that was in a 4-year stretch no less).Lemieux scored at least 50 goals 6 times in his career and only broke 70 goals once.No one was more of a scorer than Gretzky.

goals per game data suggests otherwise

 

[Ghost Rider]

Gretzky was more of a playmaker, Mario more of a scorer.

imo, this is a total misconception based on the very limited coverage hockey had in the beginning of Gretzky's career and the fact most people remember the last 6-7 years of Gretzky's career more so than the beginning.Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer in NHL history.From the beginning of his NHL career, Gretzky scored at least 50 goals, in his first 8 years, including seasons of 92, 71, 87 & 73 (that was in a 4-year stretch no less).Lemieux scored at least 50 goals 6 times in his career and only broke 70 goals once.No one was more of a scorer than Gretzky.

goals per game data suggests otherwise

You just won't let that flimsy argument go, will you? You continue to ignore the fact that Gretzky played nearly six more full seasons than Mario, and that Gretzky's goal-scoring really tailed off in his mid to late 30s, thus, dragging his overall goals scored per game average down. But hey, whatever fits your argument!

 

[Copeman]

Gretzky was more of a playmaker, Mario more of a scorer.

imo, this is a total misconception based on the very limited coverage hockey had in the beginning of Gretzky's career and the fact most people remember the last 6-7 years of Gretzky's career more so than the beginning.Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer in NHL history.From the beginning of his NHL career, Gretzky scored at least 50 goals, in his first 8 years, including seasons of 92, 71, 87 & 73 (that was in a 4-year stretch no less).Lemieux scored at least 50 goals 6 times in his career and only broke 70 goals once.No one was more of a scorer than Gretzky.

goals per game data suggests otherwise

You just won't let that flimsy argument go, will you? You continue to ignore the fact that Gretzky played nearly six more full seasons than Mario, and that Gretzky's goal-scoring really tailed off in his mid to late 30s, thus, dragging his overall goals scored per game average down. But hey, whatever fits your argument!

Since when does longevity necessarily mean "best ever". Also, if you bring up the fact that Wayne didn't score as much past mid/late 30's, where is the love for Mario continuing to post excellent numbers after coming back from friggin cancer? Obviously not as much as pre-cancer, but heck, I would bet that brought his average down too. Cancer has a way of doing that to an athlete.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

No one was more of a scorer than Gretzky.

goals per game data suggests otherwise

You just won't that flimsy argument go, will you? You continue to ignore the fact that Gretzky played nearly six more full seasons than Mario, and that Gretzky's goal-scoring really tailed off in his mid to late 30s, thus, dragging his overall goals scored per game average down. But hey, whatever fits your argument!

which years should we use?Mario played 13 years before he was forced to retire at 31 years old.during his first 13 NHL seasons (1984 to 1997), he averaged .82 goals/gameduring Gretzky's first 13 NHL seasons (1979 to 1992), he averaged .75 goals/game

 

[Copeman]

No one was more of a scorer than Gretzky.

goals per game data suggests otherwise

You just won't that flimsy argument go, will you? You continue to ignore the fact that Gretzky played nearly six more full seasons than Mario, and that Gretzky's goal-scoring really tailed off in his mid to late 30s, thus, dragging his overall goals scored per game average down. But hey, whatever fits your argument!

which years should we use?Mario played 13 years before he was forced to retire at 31 years old.during his first 13 NHL seasons (1984 to 1997), he averaged .82 goals/gameduring Gretzky's first 13 NHL seasons (1979 to 1992), he averaged .75 goals/game

Yeah, but what are the TOTAL numbers career wise? As we all know, that means everything.

 

[gmbacm]

Gretzky was more of a playmaker, Mario more of a scorer.

imo, this is a total misconception based on the very limited coverage hockey had in the beginning of Gretzky's career and the fact most people remember the last 6-7 years of Gretzky's career more so than the beginning.Gretzky is the greatest goal scorer in NHL history.From the beginning of his NHL career, Gretzky scored at least 50 goals, in his first 8 years, including seasons of 92, 71, 87 & 73 (that was in a 4-year stretch no less).Lemieux scored at least 50 goals 6 times in his career and only broke 70 goals once.No one was more of a scorer than Gretzky.

goals per game data suggests otherwise

You just won't let that flimsy argument go, will you? You continue to ignore the fact that Gretzky played nearly six more full seasons than Mario, and that Gretzky's goal-scoring really tailed off in his mid to late 30s, thus, dragging his overall goals scored per game average down. But hey, whatever fits your argument!

While I do think Gretzky is the greatest ever, I dont think this is a "flimsy" argument. Mario certainly put up a lot of goals especially considering the health issues he had. I dont think Wayne's assist numbers should be discounted as easily as they seem to be though. Difference in goals per game, IMO, comes down to Wayne's mentality of pass first, shoot second. Mario was generally looking to score, relatively speaking.

 

[guru_007]

goals per game data suggests otherwise

I guess next you're going to tell me that Mark McGwire was a greater home run hitter than Babe Ruth because he had a better hr/ab ratio?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

some amazing stuff in here.

1992–1997: Cancer, return, and retirement

The Penguins started the 1992–93 season well, and Lemieux set a franchise record with at least one goal in twelve consecutive games, from October 6 to November 1.[20] He was on pace to challenge Gretzky's records of 92 goals in one season (1981–82) and 215 points in one season (1985–86),[21] until January 12, 1993, when he made the shocking announcement that he had been diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma. He was forced to undergo energy-draining aggressive radiation treatments, leaving his career and possibly his survival in doubt. He missed two months of play, and without him, the Penguins struggled. When he returned, he was 12 points behind Buffalo's Pat LaFontaine in the scoring race.[21]

"Notwithstanding Gretzky's abiding majesty, posterity will never forget that no athlete — not even the sainted Lou Gehrig — has ever before Lemieux been struck down by a deadly disease at the very moment when he was the best of his sport at the best he ever would be. And since: Lemieux has achieved miraculously in remission, struggling, on the side, with a back injury so grievous that it has benched him after he merely laced up a skate. That is the stuff that answers people these days when they wonder where all our sports heroes have gone."

——Frank Deford, Newsweek[22]

On the day of his last radiation treatment, Lemieux flew to Philadelphia to play against the Flyers, where he scored a goal and an assist in a 5-4 loss. After the game Lemieux earned a standing ovation from Philadelphia fans — a rare occurrence for a visiting player.[21] With Lemieux back, Pittsburgh won an NHL record 17 consecutive games to finish first overall for the first time in franchise history;[21] their 119 points are still a franchise record. Lemieux scored at an incredible pace, notching an average 2.67 points per game — the third highest points-per-game for a season, behind only Wayne Gretzky's 1983–84 and 1985–86 averages of 2.77 and 2.69, respectively.[21] Lemieux won his second straight and fourth overall scoring title, finishing with 160 points (69 goals, 91 assists) in 60 games, beating out LaFontaine by 12 points.[16]

The Penguins dispatched the New Jersey Devils in the first round in five games, but were upset by the New York Islanders in seven. During the series against the Islanders, Lemieux was repeatedly knocked out of his game by Darius Kasparaitis. After the season, Lemieux was awarded his second Pearson Trophy, and his first Bill Masterton Memorial Trophy, given to the player who best exemplifies perseverance, sportsmanship, and dedication to hockey.[16]

On July 23, 1993, Lemieux underwent his second back surgery, this time to repair a herniated muscle. He missed the first ten games of the season to recover from surgery, and missed 48 more games from back problems.[16] After the season, he announced that he would take a leave of absence because of fatigue brought on by his radiation treatment.[16] Lemieux returned for the 1995–96 season, and on October 29, 1995, he scored his 500th career goal in his 605th game, played against the New York Islanders. Lemieux was second only to Gretzky, who scored 500 goals in 575 games.[16] Lemieux finished the season with 69 goals and 92 assists to lead the league; he became the seventh player to win three Hart Trophies, and the fourth player to win five Art Ross Trophies.[16] Despite his return, the Penguins fell to the Florida Panthers in the Eastern Conference Final in seven games.

The next season, Lemieux, playing against the Vancouver Canucks, scored his 600th career goal in his 719th game, and then won his sixth Art Ross Trophy with 122 points (50 goals, 72 assists) and earned his tenth career 100-point season. Once again, Lemieux finished second only to Wayne Gretzky, who finished with 15 100-point seasons, and scored 600 goals in 718 games.[16] In his last game against his hometown Montreal, Lemieux tied an NHL record for most goals in a period, with four goals in the third.[23] The Penguins qualified for the playoffs again, but lost to the Eric Lindros-led Philadelphia Flyers in five games in the first round. Lemieux scored one goal and earned an assist in his final game, played in Philadelphia.[16] After the game, he skated around the ice and received a standing ovation from the Philadelphia crowd. On November 17, 1997, Lemieux was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, becoming the ninth player in history to have the mandatory three-year waiting period waived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Lemieuxguy put up the 3rd greatest points/game season in history while undergoing radiation treatment for cancer.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

goals per game data suggests otherwise

I guess next you're going to tell me that Mark McGwire was a greater home run hitter than Babe Ruth because he had a better hr/ab ratio?

b/c Mario's career was shortened by health issues, why isn't it appropriate to look at their production on a game by game basis? I'm not cherry picking stats based on a one fluke season here and we're not debating who had the better career...that is obvious. We're talking about who was the better player when both were healthy and in their prime. Mario was a better goal scorer, Gretzky was a better playmaker. I don't even think Gretzky or Mario themselves would argue this point.

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

It depends on how you ask the question. Lemieux was better at his best, his best did not last nearly as long.

 

[guru_007]

goals per game data suggests otherwise

I guess next you're going to tell me that Mark McGwire was a greater home run hitter than Babe Ruth because he had a better hr/ab ratio?

b/c Mario's career was shortened by health issues, why isn't it appropriate to look at their production on a game by game basis? I'm not cherry picking stats based on a one fluke season here and we're not debating who had the better career...that is obvious. We're talking about who was the better player when both were healthy and in their prime. Mario was a better goal scrore, Gretzky was a better playmaker. I don't even think Gretzky or Mario themselves would argue this point.

I didn't cherry pick stats.I simply stated that Gretzky not being a great goal scorer, and more of a play maker, is a misconception.In making an argument as to who is the better goal scorer, I can't see how one ignores a)who has the most goals of all time b) who has the most goals in one season c) who has the most 70 goal seasons d) who has the most 50 goal seasonsSure injuries hampered Lemieux's career. But the first 10-12 years of Gretzky's career were brilliant goal scoring (and point scoring) seasons. You're the one targeting one stat (goals per game).

 

[Hoart Petterson]

It's Gretz and it's not even close. Lemieux never wins a cup if it weren't for Ron Francis and Ulf Samulesson.

Unknown fact: Gretz was planning a comeback sometime around 2002-2003 but hurt his knee while training and abandoned those plans.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

In making an argument as to who is the better goal scorer, I can't see how one ignores a)who has the most goals of all time

so you think Emmitt Smith is the best RB of all time?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

But the first 10-12 years of Gretzky's career were brilliant goal scoring (and point scoring) seasons. You're the one targeting one stat (goals per game).

how is total goals a better/more objective indicator than a metric that standardizes based on # of games played? During the same periods of their respective careers, Mario scored more goals per game than Gretzky did.

 

[CrossEyed]

I stated this in the other thread. If I could pick one player in the history of the league to have the puck on his stick behind the defense in overtime of game 7 of the Finals, Lemieux is the easy choice.

 

[Hoart Petterson]

I stated this in the other thread. If I could pick one player in the history of the league to have the puck on his stick behind the defense in overtime of game 7 of the Finals, Lemieux is the easy choice.

My homer choice would be Kevin Dineen. Non-homer choice would be Paul Lawless.

 

[gmbacm]

But the first 10-12 years of Gretzky's career were brilliant goal scoring (and point scoring) seasons. You're the one targeting one stat (goals per game).

how is total goals a better/more objective indicator than a metric that standardizes based on # of games played?

I dont think either is good for reasons already stated. Total goals benefits the guy that played longer. Goals per game benefits the guy that retired in his prime.Based on your numbers above an argument can be made for Mario based on gpg. Based on Guru's stats of most goals in one season, most 70 goal seasons, most 50 goal seasons, an argument can be made for Wayne. IMO best goal scorer is about a wash between the two. Its the assists that put Wayne over the top as best ever.

 

[Ghost Rider]

While I do think Gretzky is the greatest ever, I dont think this is a "flimsy" argument. Mario certainly put up a lot of goals especially considering the health issues he had. I dont think Wayne's assist numbers should be discounted as easily as they seem to be though. Difference in goals per game, IMO, comes down to Wayne's mentality of pass first, shoot second. Mario was generally looking to score, relatively speaking.

It is flimsy because he is acting like that one stat somehow proves that Mario was a better player, while ignoring just about everything else.

In making an argument as to who is the better goal scorer, I can't see how one ignores a)who has the most goals of all time

so you think Emmitt Smith is the best RB of all time?

Way to leave out the rest of his point. Now, you are cherry-picking parts out of posts.

I stated this in the other thread. If I could pick one player in the history of the league to have the puck on his stick behind the defense in overtime of game 7 of the Finals, Lemieux is the easy choice.

So, you think Mario is the best all-time at breakaways? Okay, cool.

 

[JayMan]

... and to think they played together (along with D. Hawerchuk) in the '87 Canada Cup... beating the Soviet Union in the finals... on a Lemieux goal in the last minute of play, the pass coming from Gretzky... how fitting...

 

[dgreen]

...we're not debating who had the better career...that is obvious. We're talking about who was the better player when both were healthy and in their prime.

I don't think "we're" arguing anything. I think different people are answering different questions.I think the best way to phrase the question is: If both players were entering the league the same year and assuming your goal is to maximize championships, who do you draft?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

In making an argument as to who is the better goal scorer, I can't see how one ignores a)who has the most goals of all time

so you think Emmitt Smith is the best RB of all time?

Way to leave out the rest of his point. Now, you are cherry-picking parts out of posts.

all of those records he talked about are related to Wayne having a longer/more healthy career (and due to him playing with better players in an era that contributed to his offensive success)

 

[Copeman]

...we're not debating who had the better career...that is obvious. We're talking about who was the better player when both were healthy and in their prime.

I think the best way to phrase the question is: If both players were entering the league the same year and assuming your goal is to maximize championships, who do you draft?

Ovechkin.

 

[guru_007]

In making an argument as to who is the better goal scorer, I can't see how one ignores a)who has the most goals of all time

so you think Emmitt Smith is the best RB of all time?

yes I do.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I stated this in the other thread. If I could pick one player in the history of the league to have the puck on his stick behind the defense in overtime of game 7 of the Finals, Lemieux is the easy choice.

My homer choice would be Kevin Dineen. Non-homer choice would be Paul Lawless.

I'd go Yzerman, especially if they were playing the Blues.

 

[Hoart Petterson]

I stated this in the other thread. If I could pick one player in the history of the league to have the puck on his stick behind the defense in overtime of game 7 of the Finals, Lemieux is the easy choice.

All shtick aside the correct answer here is Pat Boutette. Guy would have a breakaway and as soon as he crossed the blue line he'd stop and fire a slap shot. Would score about 95-97% of the time.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

In making an argument as to who is the better goal scorer, I can't see how one ignores a)who has the most goals of all time

so you think Emmitt Smith is the best RB of all time?

yes I do.

ok, not sure he'd make my top-10 list so it seems we have completely different opinions on how to evaluate these things.

 

[CrossEyed]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

This needs to be a separate poll.

 

[Ghost Rider]

In making an argument as to who is the better goal scorer, I can't see how one ignores a)who has the most goals of all time

so you think Emmitt Smith is the best RB of all time?

Way to leave out the rest of his point. Now, you are cherry-picking parts out of posts.

all of those records he talked about are related to Wayne having a longer/more healthy career

What does Gretzky's long and healthy career have to do with him setting the record for most goals in a season in his 3rd NHL season?Edit: Notice how I cherry-picked part of your post, too.

 

[Ghost Rider]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

This needs to be a separate poll.

Of course it does, considering that Mario is getting his butt kicked in this one.

 

[dgreen]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

No, not a good question.No reason to throw in the caveats of health and playing at their peak for 10 years. Take what we know and draft based on that. Their peak starts at age X and lasts for Y years.

 

[Copeman]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

This needs to be a separate poll.

It would still go in Wayne's favor because of the (uninformed/ignorant/media loving) masses. Not alot of true hockey fans in here. I'd be willing to bet half that have voted have never even seen these guys play. Not blaming them, just saying Wayne is a little more famous (for lack of a better word) to the outside hockey world.

 

[northern exposure]

if both players were going to be completely healthy and play at their peak for the next 10 years, who would you pick first to build your franchise around?

That adds a different dimension to the equation because due to a multitude of reasons a larger player with offensive skill has the advantage over a smaller player with offensive skill in this era of the NHL. So, Lemieux at 6'4", 200 lbs would have the advantage over Gretzky at 5'10" or 5'11" 185 lbs.I still say Lemieux was the better player than Gretzky due to the physical element Mario brought to his game. It is very close though.