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What did Browns GM Phil Savage know... (1 Viewer)

wadegarrett

FFA Legend™
Interesting read...

What did Savage know that Ravens didn't about Ngata?

Mike Preston, Baltimore Sun

April 30, 2006

The Ravens were celebrating taking Oregon defensive tackle Haloti Ngata with the No. 12 overall pick yesterday in the NFL draft, but their former draft guru raised a flag of caution.

Phil Savage, the Ravens' former director of college scouting who is now the Cleveland Browns' general manager, originally had a chance to take Ngata at No. 12, but swapped the pick with the Ravens to slide back to No. 13 and also get the Ravens' sixth-round selection.

You can understand the Ravens' happiness.

They got a wide-bodied run-stopper to replace Maake Kemoeatu, who bolted Baltimore for the Carolina Panthers during free agency earlier this year. They got a behemoth who might be able to shut down the other team's running game, and also possibly silence Pro Bowl linebacker Ray Lewis, who has criticized the front office during the past three years for not having a big, defensive tackle to protect him in the middle.

But while Ngata seems to provide some answers, Savage opened some questions. Why didn't Savage select Ngata, especially since the Browns run a 3-4 defense? Who else called the Browns when they were on the clock? Do you actually think Savage would do the Ravens any favors?

All week long, Savage told everyone he wanted Ngata, and then at the last minute he sold him to the Ravens. Maybe Savage was blowing smoke all week to bluff the Ravens, but Cleveland runs a 3-4 defense and its starting nose guard is Ted Washington, who has weight problems and is 38 years old.

The nose guard is probably the most critical position in a 3-4. Washington is a stopgap player, and there is a good chance he won't make it through the year without being injured.

If Ngata was the real deal, why didn't Savage take him?

"Maybe because he has Ted Washington," answered Ravens general manager Ozzie Newsome.

But isn't he old?

"I don't know why, then," Newsome said. "Maybe you ought to ask Phil."

Savage was unavailable for direct comment, but was asked about why he didn't take Ngata by Cleveland reporters. Savage started to answer the question, but then stopped abruptly, and started talking about something else.

That makes you wonder.

Savage is a smart guy. He earned that great reputation as a draft master during his 10 years in Baltimore. He helped draft players such as offensive tackle Jonathan Ogden, linebackers Peter Boulware and Ray Lewis , safety Ed Reed and running back Jamal Lewis.

He may have played the Ravens for a sixth-round pick yesterday, which isn't much, but maybe he didn't like Ngata after all. The 6-foot-4, 338-pound player has his share of critics. He supposedly has a weight problem, and reportedly takes plays off. On film, he appears slow at times. "I think I need to work on a lot of my technique and being more consistent," Ngata said. "[i need to be] playing hard all the time, and not just when I want to. That's probably the [biggest] thing I need to work on."

"He's on the ground more than grass," said ESPN commentator Mark Schlereth, a former offensive lineman with the Washington Redskins and Denver Broncos. "I don't like this pick. You can't be taking a nap on the field. You can't be taking plays off like he does."

Uh-oh.

Did Savage see something the Ravens didn't? Did he see the same things as several ESPN commentators, who openly criticized the Ravens for taking Ngata?

I'd like to know if the Philadelphia Eagles, who drafted Florida State defensive tackle Brodrick Bunkley with the No. 14 overall pick, called Savage when the Browns were on the clock.

It's hard to knock the Ravens for taking Ngata. They couldn't go through the season with 310-pound Kelly Gregg and 310-pound Justin Bannan as the starting tackles. That was trouble. Everyone would have tried to run up the middle against the Ravens with two lightweight tackles, and an aging middle linebacker who has missed almost two full seasons in the past four with injuries.

Ngata was regarded by most of the draft experts as the top defensive tackle in the college game. He has great power, and can toss offensive linemen aside. He'll occasionally run down opposing ball carriers to the opposite side of the field. He isn't a pass rusher, but he doesn't need to be in the Ravens' system.

Because of his size, the Ravens like to compare him to former tackles Tony Siragusa and Sam Adams. He is no Adams. He doesn't have the same explosion and can't penetrate as much. Ngata is more of a Siragusa, just a load who can occupy space or offensive linemen.

It's hard to doubt the Ravens in this situation because they've had a lot of success in the past. They've had only two failures while picking close to this area, first with Florida wide receiver Travis Taylor at No. 10 in 2000, and the other is Cal quarterback Kyle Boller at No. 19 in 2003 even though the verdict isn't in yet on Boller.

But you really would like to know what Savage really thought about Ngata. We understand why he took Florida State defensive end Kamerion Wimbley a pick after the Ravens. The Browns had the fewest sacks in the league last year and Wimbley is a pass-rushing specialist. He has high character, and came highly recommended to Savage by Seminoles coach Bobby Bowden.

But you can't get over the fact that Savage passed over Ngata. And when he did, Savage raised some eyebrows.
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I don't think the Browns necessarily were down on Ngata, only that after their recent FA signings, they had a good feel for what they needed in the draft.

Plus with Ted Washington, a NT wasn't priority #1. They ended up with Baba Oshinowo, who will be groomed behind Washington.

 
I'm interested to see how this plays out. Always tough to predict a 4-3 college DE to a 3-4 NFL OLB. Florida State D-Ends haven't exactly been stars in the NFL. Since Peter Boulware went 1.04 in the 1997 Draft:

2004 3.01 Darnell Dockett, Cardinals

2003 2.27 Alonzo Jackson, Steelers

2001 1.10 Jamal Reynolds, Packers

1999 2.09 Tony Bryant, Raiders

1998 1.03 Andre Wadsworth, Cardinals

1998 3.22 Greg Spires, Patriots

 
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I don't really have any insider information, but I actually predicted this exact trade in our NFL Draft Challenge...I had prewritten notes from things I read leading up to the draft.

My exact notes on my personal cheatsheet were....

TRADE: Pick #12 if BOTH Ngata and Wimbley still avail. (Browns swap picks w/Ravens)

So, somewhere along the lines I read that the Browns had no preference between Ngata and Wimbley and knew the Ravens wanted Ngata bad...so, they simply decided to just pick up an extra pick and let the Ravens decide for them that they would be getting Wimbley.

So, it may not be a matter of the Browns knowing something bad about Ngata....it may just have been they had Wimbley rated just as high on their boards so why not get something in return by trading down a spot and getting an equal player in their mind.

 
This isn't making sense to me. Isn't Ngata more of an up-tackle in a 4-3 set given his athleticism and ability to penetrate and make plays in the backfield (or a 3-4 DE maybe) than he is a NT?

If I'm right, that would amply explain the Browns passing over him in the draft given that he doesn't fit their scheme (to speak nothing of their areas of need).

 
What did Savage know that Ravens didn't about Ngata?

....and the other is Cal quarterback Kyle Boller at No. 19 in 2003 even though the verdict isn't in yet on Boller.
:loco: Allow me to cast my vote. Boller is a bust.

 
Savage on the radio yesterday said he didn't mind trading with Baltimore so they could get Ngata since they now have LeCharles Bently to block him.

 
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Well.... What did the Browns know that the Ravens didn't?

The answer is probably - NOTHING.

Mike Preston is a beat writer for the Baltimore Sun, but he is notorius for being negative about the Ravens.

The article really never answers the question. The only direct quotes in the article come from Ozzie Newsome and I can almost see the sarcasm and agitation dripping from his words. No one else would talk to him so he took quotes from ESPN analysts.

On the other hand, last night on ESPN I think it was Mel Kiper that I heard say that Baltimore probably had the best draft of any team this year.

 
Well.... What did the Browns know that the Ravens didn't?

The answer is probably - NOTHING.

Mike Preston is a beat writer for the Baltimore Sun, but he is notorius for being negative about the Ravens.

The article really never answers the question. The only direct quotes in the article come from Ozzie Newsome and I can almost see the sarcasm and agitation dripping from his words. No one else would talk to him so he took quotes from ESPN analysts.

On the other hand, last night on ESPN I think it was Mel Kiper that I heard say that Baltimore probably had the best draft of any team this year.

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Preston is a Sun columnist, not the beat writer, and he is routinely critical of Ozzie and Billick. This almost takes the cake, though, questioning the Ngata pick only because Phil Savage declined to make it.
 
This isn't making sense to me.  Isn't Ngata more of an up-tackle in a 4-3 set given his athleticism and ability to penetrate and make plays in the backfield (or a 3-4 DE maybe) than he is a NT? 

If I'm right, that would amply explain the Browns passing over him in the draft given that he doesn't fit their scheme (to speak nothing of their areas of need).

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Bunkley was more of the penetrating DT. Ngata is definitely more of the prototypical 3-4 NT. He's big and takes up a bunch of space. He's not all that fast compared to Bunkley.
 
This isn't making sense to me.  Isn't Ngata more of an up-tackle in a 4-3 set given his athleticism and ability to penetrate and make plays in the backfield (or a 3-4 DE maybe) than he is a NT? 

If I'm right, that would amply explain the Browns passing over him in the draft given that he doesn't fit their scheme (to speak nothing of their areas of need).

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Bunkley was more of the penetrating DT. Ngata is definitely more of the prototypical 3-4 NT. He's big and takes up a bunch of space. He's not all that fast compared to Bunkley.
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Ngata certainly has the size, not arguing with you there. But what made him remarkable enough to be drafted as high as he did given the things I've read about him was his athleticism. Correct me if I'm wrong, the classic NT, who's taking on 2-3 blockers on every play, is supposed to be big and strong and to be able to hold his ground against those blockers. His ability to make plays beyond occupying those blockers is virtually irrelevant given that by occupying multiple O-linemen he's freeing up others in the front 7 to make plays.

Using Ngata in this fashion seems like a waste of his athleticism, even if he is big and strong enough to play the position.

 
i'm a little more interested in why they traded up 10 spots to grab D'Qwell Jackson.

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D'Qwell is insane.....so much fun to watch, of course I am looking through my Terps glasses right now......
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everything i've read says he's really good, just undersized.i don't know much about him, but he doesn't seem like a guy you trade up to snag.

i guess we'll find out this fall. :thumbup:

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He's built like Donnie Edwards and is made for 3-4 ILB.
 
His history of knee trouble - ACL in 2003, knee sprain in the Holiday Bowl - may have made the Browns wary of drafting him. The Browns also used the 6th on DT Oshinowo who looks like he can handle the run stopping duties of a 3-4 nose tackle.

 
This article is reading way too much into the Browns' and Savage's motives, and given them way too much credit for knowing something about a player that everyone else doesn't know. The Brown's simply liked Wimbley more at least as much as Ngata, so they did the smart thing knowing that the Ravens wanted Ngata and got something for nothing.

More teams should be taking this tactic, in the draft and even for players they are going to lose anyway ... Tenn & McNair, Detroit & Harrington, for example.

 
i'm a little more interested in why they traded up 10 spots to grab D'Qwell Jackson.

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D'Qwell is insane.....so much fun to watch, of course I am looking through my Terps glasses right now......
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everything i've read says he's really good, just undersized.i don't know much about him, but he doesn't seem like a guy you trade up to snag.

i guess we'll find out this fall. :thumbup:

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All I know is that in a conference with the talents of M. Williams, E. Sims, K. Wimbly, B. Bunkley, T. Hill, A. Cromartie, M. Lawson and a few other 1st rounders, DQ was the ACC Defensive Player of the Year.The knock may be his size, but I heard one guy spin it around to "Yeah, he's smaller & harder to block."

 
This isn't making sense to me.  Isn't Ngata more of an up-tackle in a 4-3 set given his athleticism and ability to penetrate and make plays in the backfield (or a 3-4 DE maybe) than he is a NT? 

If I'm right, that would amply explain the Browns passing over him in the draft given that he doesn't fit their scheme (to speak nothing of their areas of need).

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Bunkley was more of the penetrating DT. Ngata is definitely more of the prototypical 3-4 NT. He's big and takes up a bunch of space. He's not all that fast compared to Bunkley.
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Ngata certainly has the size, not arguing with you there. But what made him remarkable enough to be drafted as high as he did given the things I've read about him was his athleticism. Correct me if I'm wrong, the classic NT, who's taking on 2-3 blockers on every play, is supposed to be big and strong and to be able to hold his ground against those blockers. His ability to make plays beyond occupying those blockers is virtually irrelevant given that by occupying multiple O-linemen he's freeing up others in the front 7 to make plays.

Using Ngata in this fashion seems like a waste of his athleticism, even if he is big and strong enough to play the position.

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that his athleticism was one of the reasons that people think he could be a very good NT. He's big enough that he can take on multiple guys on runs but strong and quick enough to push the center back up the field on passing plays.
 
thanks to the guys who responded about D'Qwell. like i said, i didn't know much about him, and was just a little suprised when they made the move.

as for NT, i have a hard time believing that Oshinowo is going to take over for Washington, but i guess weirder things have happened.

 
I didnt know where to put this, but heres a video of Wimbley (#95) going against all pro OT Eric Winston of Miami & Marcus Hagans, QB of Virgina. SPEED KILLS!

java script:void(window.open('http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/sports?ch=396337&cl=401740','playerWindow','width=793,height=608,scrollbars=no'));

 
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What did Savage know that Ravens didn't about Ngata?... If Ngata was the real deal, why didn't Savage take him? Savage is a smart guy. He earned that great reputation as a draft master during his 10 years in Baltimore. ...  Did Savage see something the Ravens didn't? Did he see the same things as several ESPN commentators, who openly criticized the Ravens for taking Ngata? ...  But you really would like to know what Savage really thought about Ngata. We understand why he took Florida State defensive end Kamerion Wimbley a pick after the Ravens. The Browns had the fewest sacks in the league last year and Wimbley is a pass-rushing specialist. He has high character, and came highly recommended to Savage by Seminoles coach Bobby Bowden. But you can't get over the fact that Savage passed over Ngata. And when he did, Savage raised some eyebrows.
Savage was on WTAM last night with his regional scouts and said that if he wasn't able to get La'Charles Bentley in free agency that he would have taken Ngata with the first pick.Think about that statement for a second before I explain.First, here's a hint.The Browns traded their former first round draft pick and undersized center Jeff Faine in order to move up in the second round. Their is a connection, mull it over.OK, the deal is that Faine had trouble handing NT Casey Hampton and he certainly would have trouble with Ngata but Bently can handle both of them so the acquisition of La'Charles freed him up to address the woeful pass rush, mystery solved and yeah, Savage is pretty darn smart to realize he had already offset one of the worst matchups that Browns had from the previous year and he could work to address a different and difficult area to improve with his top pick.
 

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