What do Darren McFadden and Travis Henry have in common? (1 Viewer)

[madd futher]

Darren McFadden is being sued by a woman in California for unpaid child support.

McFadden admits he fathered the 11-month-old child, so he's probably going to have to pay up eventually. McFadden is known to be the father of at least three illegitimate children. (per Rotoworld)

He's catching up fast!

 

[comfortably numb]

Whew, for a second I thought you were gonna say Dmac was one of THenry's kids!

 

[FavreCo]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

 

[travdogg]

Whew, for a second I thought you were gonna say Dmac was one of THenry's kids!

 

[SproutDaddy]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

 

[chook]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

 

[Chachi]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

Spread the word, I am BUYING Dmac in every single league and i'd love to buy LOW.

 

[bcr8f]

Doesn't Mac still need 8 kids with 8 different women before he's even with Travis? :X

 

[SproutDaddy]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're definitely not right. You're just stereotyping here. Honestly, how many people do you know who are single parents?

 

[Two Deep]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

Not to mention he is not to bright. One illegitimate kid you get a pass...Two illegitimate kids you get a vasectomy....Three illegitimate kids you should have to have that thing cut off. He must have failed sex education.

 

[travdogg]

Doesn't Mac still need 8 kids with 8 different women before he's even with Travis?

He has closed the gap on Willis McGahee though.

 

[SproutDaddy]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

Not to mention he is not to bright. One illegitimate kid you get a pass...Two illegitimate kids you get a vasectomy....Three illegitimate kids you should have to have that thing cut off. He must have failed sex education.

And how do you know he had sex ed? I'm pretty sure these girls know what they're doing. I won't argue with you though about being too bright. Just your reasoning is off.

 

[whole-show]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

Not to mention he is not to bright. One illegitimate kid you get a pass...Two illegitimate kids you get a vasectomy....Three illegitimate kids you should have to have that thing cut off. He must have failed sex education.

And how do you know he had sex ed? I'm pretty sure these girls know what they're doing. I won't argue with you though about being too bright. Just your reasoning is off.

Yeah you're way off...Travis Henry is a role model, I mean other then the illegitimate kids he has been a complete role model that I wish my kids looked up to....

 

[chris1969]

I was gonna say herpies.

 

[SproutDaddy]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

Not to mention he is not to bright. One illegitimate kid you get a pass...Two illegitimate kids you get a vasectomy....Three illegitimate kids you should have to have that thing cut off. He must have failed sex education.

And how do you know he had sex ed? I'm pretty sure these girls know what they're doing. I won't argue with you though about being too bright. Just your reasoning is off.

Yeah you're way off...Travis Henry is a role model, I mean other then the illegitimate kids he has been a complete role model that I wish my kids looked up to....

Ummm....okay? When did I call any one of those guys a role model? I simply was trying to show the illogical reasoning behind calling someone a bum and saying they won't have a sucessful career due to the fact they got a girl pregnant. So actually, you're way off.

 

[whole-show]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

Not to mention he is not to bright. One illegitimate kid you get a pass...Two illegitimate kids you get a vasectomy....Three illegitimate kids you should have to have that thing cut off. He must have failed sex education.

And how do you know he had sex ed? I'm pretty sure these girls know what they're doing. I won't argue with you though about being too bright. Just your reasoning is off.

Yeah you're way off...Travis Henry is a role model, I mean other then the illegitimate kids he has been a complete role model that I wish my kids looked up to....

Ummm....okay? When did I call any one of those guys a role model? I simply was trying to show the illogical reasoning behind calling someone a bum and saying they won't have a sucessful career due to the fact they got a girl pregnant. So actually, you're way off.

Just giving you a hard time..I completely understand what you are saying...I just had to throw that in to give you crap....

 

[chook]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're definitely not right. You're just stereotyping here. Honestly, how many people do you know who are single parents?

What on earth are you on about? If HE leaves HER with illegitimate children, HE is not a single parent. Sheesh.Like another FBG mentioned, once - give him a pass, it happens. Twice - that's becoming a problem. Third time? The kid obviously doesn't learn from his mistakes, which translates to many other areas of one's life.

It has nothing to do with stereotyping either. People who are lucky/talented enough to be given a short window of their lives to earn millions upon millions of dollars, yet manage to jeopardise that by thinking with their **** and not their brain, are not people who can see the bigger picture.

 

[Two Deep]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

Not to mention he is not to bright. One illegitimate kid you get a pass...Two illegitimate kids you get a vasectomy....Three illegitimate kids you should have to have that thing cut off. He must have failed sex education.

And how do you know he had sex ed? I'm pretty sure these girls know what they're doing. I won't argue with you though about being too bright. Just your reasoning is off.

The girls know what they are doing, I will agree but if you walk around shooting a loaded gun somebody is going to get hurt. He should have his gun on safety at the very least.

 

[puckalicious]

Darren McFadden is being sued by a woman in California for unpaid child support.

McFadden admits he fathered the 11-month-old child, so he's probably going to have to pay up eventually. McFadden is known to be the father of at least three illegitimate children. (per Rotoworld)

He's catching up fast!

So now you automatically have "character" issues if you father an illegitimate child? Do you have this same opinion about Barry Sanders and Marshall Faulk? People make mistakes, and it is "off the field" for crying out loud and it's not like it's something the NFL can fine/suspend them for. Unpaid child support is a different issue and shame on DMC if it's true.I'm not defending Henry by any means, that moron has 9 with 9.

 

[Demian]

I think we need to look up the definition of illegitimate in here.

 

[Two Deep]

Darren McFadden is being sued by a woman in California for unpaid child support.

McFadden admits he fathered the 11-month-old child, so he's probably going to have to pay up eventually. McFadden is known to be the father of at least three illegitimate children. (per Rotoworld)

He's catching up fast!

So now you automatically have "character" issues if you father an illegitimate child? Do you have this same opinion about Barry Sanders and Marshall Faulk? People make mistakes, and it is "off the field" for crying out loud and it's not like it's something the NFL can fine/suspend them for. Unpaid child support is a different issue and shame on DMC if it's true.I'm not defending Henry by any means, that moron has 9 with 9.

People are also suppose to learn from their mistakes and when they don't we can question them. If you make the same mistake three times you have some kind of issue.

 

[puckalicious]

I think we need to look up the definition of illegitimate in here.

The literal definition is any child out of wedlock. I think the more appropriate and IMO current "mainstream" accepted definition is a child out of wedlock or other committed relationship where the father has no interest in being a father. That doesn't mean that the mother necessarily wanted the baby either but they kind of get stuck with the baby.

 

[puckalicious]

Darren McFadden is being sued by a woman in California for unpaid child support.

McFadden admits he fathered the 11-month-old child, so he's probably going to have to pay up eventually. McFadden is known to be the father of at least three illegitimate children. (per Rotoworld)

He's catching up fast!

So now you automatically have "character" issues if you father an illegitimate child? Do you have this same opinion about Barry Sanders and Marshall Faulk? People make mistakes, and it is "off the field" for crying out loud and it's not like it's something the NFL can fine/suspend them for. Unpaid child support is a different issue and shame on DMC if it's true.I'm not defending Henry by any means, that moron has 9 with 9.

People are also suppose to learn from their mistakes and when they don't we can question them. If you make the same mistake three times you have some kind of issue.

I'm not defending him. My point is don't broad-brush someone as having "character" issues as if this is some kind of violent crime. Be consistent and be equally mad at players generally viewed as having good character that have done the same thing.Being unsmart and not understanding (or caring) about birth control is a far cry from the typical character issues we usually discuss that can have a real impact on the field. This does not lead to a suspension or arrest or anything that affects fantasy football.

And as I said not paying child support is a different issue, that is a problem we should be concerned with because I think that could lead to NFL action if it is not taken care of. Or am I wrong? Anybody know the NFL policy on this? Can they suspend a player that is not paying court ordered child support or alimony for that matter?

 

[DawgPoundNJ]

Whew, for a second I thought you were gonna say Dmac was one of THenry's kids!

Please stop picking on my dad.

 

[Phurfur]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

If you don't support your children you are a bum of the worst kind. If you are also a millionaire you are a POS too. HTH

 

[Phurfur]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're definitely not right. You're just stereotyping here. Honestly, how many people do you know who are single parents?

It is about supporting your children!

 

[Avery]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

In related news, Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison, Priest Holmes, Chad Johnson, Derrick Thomas, and Shannon Sharpe are also bums who have the same severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on their careers in the long run.

 

[Phurfur]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

In related news, Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison, Priest Holmes, Chad Johnson, Derrick Thomas, and Shannon Sharpe are also bums who have the same severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on their careers in the long run.

So none of these players is paying child support?

 

[Avery]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

In related news, Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison, Priest Holmes, Chad Johnson, Derrick Thomas, and Shannon Sharpe are also bums who have the same severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on their careers in the long run.

So none of these players is paying child support?

Oh. Not paying child support is the critical factor in predicting NFL success.I'll look into that.

 

[Buckna]

Original article cited by Rotoworld:

A judge refused to allow an Oakland, Calif., woman to file an anonymous paternity suit against former Arkansas Razorback standout running back Darren McFadden.

Kevin Hinkley, a Fort Smith attorney, argued in a motion filed Tuesday that McFadden's status as a wellknown public figure will bring undue attention to his client, who is Kerri Lynette Williams, as well as McFadden and the 11-month-old boy.

The motion was denied by 4th Judicial Circuit Judge Mark Lindsay in this case, which was originally filed as Jane Doe v. John Doe.

McFadden, 21, openly admits he is the father of the child, according to the petition to establish paternity and motion for child support.

McFadden's agent, Ian Greengross, said he has not had an opportunity to ask his client about the paternity case so he had no comment.

Hinkley would not say how the two met or where Williams lived at the time of the alleged conception. He had no comment about the case.

McFadden faced another paternity suit in Pulaski County last year but was determined not to be the father after he took two paternity tests.

The NFL's Oakland Raiders picked McFadden with the fourth overall selection in the 2008 NFL Draft. According to the team's Web site, www.raiders.com, McFadden rushed for 499 yards on 113 attempts and scored four touchdowns with the Raiders for an average of 8.7 yards per carry in 2008. He also caught 29 passes for 285 yards.

McFadden rushed for 4,590 yards on 785 attempts, averaging 5.8 yards, and scored 44 touchdowns during his career at Arkansas.

McFadden caught 46 passes for 365 yards and two touchdowns at Arkansas. He also threw seven touchdown passes and returned a kickoff for a score.

In 2007, he rushed for 1,830 yards on 325 attempts, averaging 5.6 yards, and scored 17 touchdowns.

McFadden is a two-time Heisman Trophy runner-up and a two-time Doak Walker Award winner. He broke numerous school and Southeastern Conference records during his three seasons at Arkansas, establishing himself as one of the league's elite all-time backs.

Doesn't say anything about unpaid child support or three previous children. Seems like the woman is alleging that McFadden openly admits to fathering the child and that is part of the basis for a paternity suit to establish whether he is the father and owes child support.

 

[Sweet Love]

I am waiting for the the guy who gets a "public vascetomy" because he does not want to be a target. In a perfect world, if I had a son who made it as a pro athlete, I would push this (and honestly little else in his career)...he may not get "all the chicks", but I think he would have a better chance at finding "the one". I am shocked more agents do not push this on their clients. They seem to be able to make them do everything else (see Drew R.), but no one has told their clients "do this procedure, tap all the women you want, and there will be NO downside)...how has this not happened yet!?!?!?

 

[FavreCo]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

If you don't support your children you are a bum of the worst kind. If you are also a millionaire you are a POS too. HTH

I think you helped him understand. I'm just amazed that somone couldn't figure out my original post.

 

[JamesTheScot]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

Not to mention he is not to bright. One illegitimate kid you get a pass...Two illegitimate kids you get a vasectomy....Three illegitimate kids you should have to have that thing cut off. He must have failed sex education.

And how do you know he had sex ed? I'm pretty sure these girls know what they're doing. I won't argue with you though about being too bright. Just your reasoning is off.

Yeah you're way off...Travis Henry is a role model, I mean other then the illegitimate kids he has been a complete role model that I wish my kids looked up to....

Ummm....okay? When did I call any one of those guys a role model? I simply was trying to show the illogical reasoning behind calling someone a bum and saying they won't have a sucessful career due to the fact they got a girl pregnant. So actually, you're way off.

You're missing the point. It's not that difficult to have sex and NOT get a girl pregnant. But if you're unlucky, when it does happen, it's pretty easy to figure out where you went wrong. That's your mulligan. Learn from it.So when it happens to you twice more again, you're either stupid or just don't care. Neither one of those bode well in a career path where most everyone is an elite athlete and the differrence between success and failure is how hard and how smart you work. That's where it ties in. Think Henry's poor decision making hasn't adversely limited his NFL career? Think McGehee might be headed on the same path?And this stuff about being trapped is BS. You sleep with dogs, you get fleas...or little dogs. Goes with the territory. So McFadden is still stupid or doesn't care for allowing himself to be trapped THREE TIMES.

 

[Tigerbot Hesh]

I hate to be the DMac apologist, but I think this is the first kid he's going to be on the hook for (assuming the tests say it's his). He had two different women make claims against him before the draft, but DNA tests ruled him out as the father.

 

[Phurfur]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

In related news, Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison, Priest Holmes, Chad Johnson, Derrick Thomas, and Shannon Sharpe are also bums who have the same severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on their careers in the long run.

So none of these players is paying child support?

Oh. Not paying child support is the critical factor in predicting NFL success.I'll look into that.

No it has to do with character and responsibility. This does carry across to the football field.Don't you know the difference between having kids and supporting them? You should look into that.

 

[Avery]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

In related news, Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison, Priest Holmes, Chad Johnson, Derrick Thomas, and Shannon Sharpe are also bums who have the same severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on their careers in the long run.

So none of these players is paying child support?

Oh. Not paying child support is the critical factor in predicting NFL success.I'll look into that.

No it has to do with character and responsibility. This does carry across to the football field.Don't you know the difference between having kids and supporting them? You should look into that.

I'd like to think that "good", responsible people are successful and "bad", irresponsible people are not but that is just not always the way of the world. In the NFL there are many examples of players who are irresponsible, immature jackasses off the field and are great players and even great teammates on the field.Many of these jackasses have committed far larger sins then not paying child support.

 

[Buckna]

I hate to be the DMac apologist, but I think this is the first kid he's going to be on the hook for (assuming the tests say it's his). He had two different women make claims against him before the draft, but DNA tests ruled him out as the father.

I would still like to see where Rotoworld got the comments "unpaid child support" and "McFadden is known to be the father of at least three illegitimate children." None of that is in the original article they cited. The case is a woman suing for a paternity test to determine if McFadden is the father of the child. If he is, then he owes child support.

 

[SproutDaddy]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

If you don't support your children you are a bum of the worst kind. If you are also a millionaire you are a POS too. HTH

I think you helped him understand. I'm just amazed that somone couldn't figure out my original post.

The only thing convey in your OP is that you're arrogantly over-opinionated. All the facts are yet known in the situation, yet you assume he is the father.If it turns out that he's the father, and he doesn't pay cild support, yeah, I consider him a bum. But to call him that and assume he will have a horrible career is just plain ignorant. What percentage of NFL players, or better yet athletes in general, have illegitimate children? Surprising you support these sports at all if you feel the way you do actually.For the record, my baby sister's ex hasn't paid child support for my niece in 4 years. He is due for a beat down!

 

[JPeso]

Could it be possible that McFadden was Henry's first child?

 

[Wadsworth]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're definitely not right. You're just stereotyping here. Honestly, how many people do you know who are single parents?

What on earth are you on about? If HE leaves HER with illegitimate children, HE is not a single parent. Sheesh.Like another FBG mentioned, once - give him a pass, it happens. Twice - that's becoming a problem. Third time? The kid obviously doesn't learn from his mistakes, which translates to many other areas of one's life.

It has nothing to do with stereotyping either. People who are lucky/talented enough to be given a short window of their lives to earn millions upon millions of dollars, yet manage to jeopardise that by thinking with their **** and not their brain, are not people who can see the bigger picture.

I'm sure there are a lot of "mistakes" reading this thread.

 

[Chachi]

So he has 1 kid and he's compared to Travis Henry? Puhlease.

 

[Chachi]

This thread needs to be

This thread DEBUNKED

 

[madd futher]

[i don't think the second thread need to have been started over this topic, but it is very unclear the number of illegitimate children McFadden has fathered. I'll say that ONE is too many. Here's my post in the other thread:

That said, I believe this one falls under the "common knowledge" category where Rotoworld's short paragraph of analysis uses common knowledge from outside of the source article. It's common knowledge that McFadden admitted to having two illegitimate children at the NFL combine last year. Even if it's not common knowledge to you, it can be found with a quick google search. ]

2 + 1 + 0 = 3

[Devil's Advocate, but could one the two admitted be the kid in question with this article and could the other be the kid involved in the case that was dismissed? Which would bring the total to 1 or 2. While you call it common knowledge, it might have been worth the time to confirm that the new case was an addition and the dismissed case was not one of the 2 he admitted earlier.]

My comment: I believe that the article said that the new kid on the block was 11 months old. If it is true that he admitted at the combine to having fathered two illigitimate children, this little one would probably not have even been born yet.

So i'm guessing (but can't be sure) that 2+1=3. I posted the oringinal thread here based on the rotoworld blurb.......didn't read the entire source article which is admittedly ambiguous to the actual # of illigitimate kids.

Regardless, while I don't think it affects his status as an NFL player in any way as long as he pays his support, it DOES affect our society greatly. Whether he likes it or not he IS a role model. Too many men (especially black men, and this is not being prejudice) in our society father children and do nothing to take responsibility for ACTUALLY BEING A FATHER, regardless of whether they can afford to pay support or not. I work in the black community and it is amazing how many kids are raised by momma or granny with no male input or mentorship in their lives. And we wonder why so many kids grow up just like their 'daddys'.

 

[chook]

This bum was never even on my radar. Kevin Smith (who I own) will have a better career when all is said and done.

And what does having illegitamite children have to do with someone being a bum or how successful a career he will have?

I think it screams that he has severe character issues, which will undoubtedly have an effect on his career in the long run.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but you're definitely not right. You're just stereotyping here. Honestly, how many people do you know who are single parents?

What on earth are you on about? If HE leaves HER with illegitimate children, HE is not a single parent. Sheesh.Like another FBG mentioned, once - give him a pass, it happens. Twice - that's becoming a problem. Third time? The kid obviously doesn't learn from his mistakes, which translates to many other areas of one's life.

It has nothing to do with stereotyping either. People who are lucky/talented enough to be given a short window of their lives to earn millions upon millions of dollars, yet manage to jeopardise that by thinking with their **** and not their brain, are not people who can see the bigger picture.

I'm sure there are a lot of "mistakes" reading this thread.

If there are, I hope that their dads were decent enough to either stick around or be present throughout their upbringing and prompt with support payments.

 

[bcr8f]

So he has 1 kid and he's compared to Travis Henry? Puhlease.

Travis has 9 kids from 9 different women.

 

[madd futher]

from bcr8f above: "Travis has 9 kids from 9 different women."

Chachi has not found any evidence that McFadden has only one kid. The underlying Article that Rotoworld cited did not specify the number of his illigitimate children nor the number of different mothers.

 

[Avery]

This thread is reminding me about how long the off-season is around here.