NutterButter
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
What do you think is wrong with college education? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter wazoo11
- Start date
NutterButter
Footballguy
Same here. They've been giving out that level of loans for decades.I don't remember for me - but the idea that federal loans are driving the cost of college upwards I don't agree with
belljr
Footballguy
NutterButter
Footballguy
Here's a nice little chart. https://www.edvisors.com/media/images/article-charts/direct-loans-aggregate-borrowing-limits-bar-chart-725x352.pngThe plot thickens!!!;
I definitely have both on fedloan.
I could swear that's roughly the same amount of undergraduate borrowing that it was 20 years ago for me.
culdeus
Footballguy
Someone needs to explain to me why 50-75% of college coursework at this point can't be done online. Some majors could be done exclusively online. Some that require lab work or other group interactions maybe need physical presence.
Someone also needs to explain to me why 100% of law school and MBA isn't just online coursework?
It's all just a money grab now that has no value over a power point slide fest.
Someone also needs to explain to me why 100% of law school and MBA isn't just online coursework?
It's all just a money grab now that has no value over a power point slide fest.
belljr
Footballguy
It is in some schools Some my sons classes he did online. But then you have labs and things that probably can't be
Last edited by a moderator:
NutterButter
Footballguy
Technology hasn't had the same transformative effect in education as it has elsewhere. Some major college offer their courses online for free if what you want to do is learn; tons of people sign up but few people actually complete the courses. In addition, I'd imagine a lot of students don't want to spend 4 years taking classes in their parents house. There's plenty of ways to save money and still get a college education, but kids want the college experience and parents are willing to pay for it.
Brony
Footballguy
Like healthcare, we put higher education on a pillar where it is this mystical thing that you can't put a price tag on. The people who market and set pricing for healthcare and education love this cause they can jack up prices and it gets no resistance cause we've all been brainwashed to follow along because it's supposedly invaluable. We can hate on the systems that allow these prices to go up unchecked, but it's our collective fault for buying into this ideology.
chet
Footballguy
A college degree today is akin to a HS diploma when I graduated (HBA '93) but it comes with a much bigger cost. IMO 1/3 - 1/2 of college students would be better off in trade school because this country doesn't produce enough white collar jobs for all of the grads and you get Occupy Wall Street as a result.
SWC
Bromigo
one thing that is missing today is the whole college boy versus townie rivalry you never hear about a good old fashioned thrown down where the college guys bring there girls in to a local tap and try to start some trouble and then the townie cutters lay them out and say i got her apples how do you like that and then leave with the papershakers like in the olden days and that my friends is what is wrong with college take that to the bank bromigos
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
So they can get an apartment away from their parents and take their online classes there.belljr said:
Agree that there is an very valuable part of college in the social aspect, especially people like me that were from smaller towns. It really gets you interacting with people and ideas you might not otherwise. There has to be a way to blend the ideas and save costs. Online lectures mixed with a weekly study group with a TA or something?
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
I think it's great for the people who belong there. Too many people who aren't college material get coaxed there so the college can pad their bottom line with the student loan money.
NutterButter
Footballguy
Just curious for the trade school advocates, what trades should I try convincing my daughters to realistically get into? I know that technically they can do anything, but what's something likely that they'd feel comfortable pursuing. I can't recall every seeing a female plumber or mechanic or carpenter.
MarvinTScamper
Footballguy
this whole post is a disaster.Dedfin said:
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
I don't think you need college for this. Inquisitive minds will be inquisitive minds regardless of where or what they are doing in their life. Let those individuals flourish on their own accord. Forcing a kid to learn theology for an HVAC or a science program seems counterintuitive.Homer J Simpson said:
MarvinTScamper
Footballguy
and the reasons they haven't are called "tenured professors" -- they cost too much, teach people (*^&^ing Psych 101. Eliminate the general studies crap from "required" - schools shouldn't be trying to teach latin, or phys ed, or music, or German, unless the student WANTS it for his degree. Lay out the actual classes that teach kids what they need to know to get started in their fields. Psychology, Anthropology, Communications...come on!!!NutterButter said:
brun
Footballguy
I think that's more a function of the job market. 40+ years ago when there were more jobs than applicants, experience was more likely to count for more than it does now. Now, in a bad job market, whether there is or isn't a degree on your resume makes an easy first filter for the employer when there are many applicants for fewer jobs.Cjw_55106 said:
NutterButter
Footballguy
Well a lot of that isn't required. I think the only general ed I had to take was psychology, philosophy, history and english. Maybe Calculus whatever and physics were also required, but I'm not sure considering I was originally an engineering major. Its really only one semester's worth of classes we're talking about. I personally like the variety. I wish I paid attention a lot more in the first two I listed. And unless you're working in a bubble, the ability to write or communicate in general might come in handy.
whiskey7
Footballguy
belljr said:
Learning to manage time and money, interact with different people/be a good roommate, shop/cook/clean for oneself, etc are all valuable things to learn. Don't have to go away to college for it but that is certainly where a lot of folks (myself included) first got going on some of that stuff. I feel like I grew up a lot while in college in addition to getting an education and degree that helped me get jobs I likely would have no chance of getting otherwise. For me, it was definitely a good choice.
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
Thorpe
Footballguy
Also, it isn't so much what was learned at college that matters to an employer, it is the fact that the graduate was able to attend enough classes and do enough studying and had enough perseverance to actually get the degree. It costs money to hire and employers want employees to show up on time, focus on the work and not quit after a month.
culdeus
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
This is a really valuable comment, and there is a deeper comment on my end to make, but I'm not up for it right now.Brony said:
There's just so much wrong with the system that it would take an academic symposium.
eta* I will comment quickly. If HR needs a screen for the professional classes, it should be more targeted towards licensing than towards degrees.
Last edited by a moderator:
Gustavo Fring
Footballguy
Higher education could be cut in half as far as length of time you need to go through additional schooling. You should only have to complete RELEVANT coursework for a particular major. All these BS elective classes that have zero to do with a person's major is 1) almost a complete waste of time and 2) another avenue for the system to suck money out of your pockets.
The first two years should be coursework related only to your major OR whatever additional classes you think would help out in the real world. The last year or two should be some sort of internship program where the student gains real world experience (also purely elective option).
The first two years should be coursework related only to your major OR whatever additional classes you think would help out in the real world. The last year or two should be some sort of internship program where the student gains real world experience (also purely elective option).
culdeus
Footballguy
I've heard this explained away on a practical level. You can't simply have someone that wants to be a doctor follow a coursework protocol that is based on basic biology and organic chemistry now forced in parallel. You have to fill the time for the critical classes run in series over 6-12 hours of core coursework. You have to kill time while building the foundations, so it makes some sense at least to fill it with low value, low stress electives but there might be better thought processes about what could go in it's place.
That's the reason why M.S. in engineering are typically just 30 hours. Expectation is you have all the core stuff done, that's not the way in a B.S. program.
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
Maybe it's just me but I don't think I can ever get behind "limit it to classes that are relevant to their major/future occupation".
Homer J Simpson
I don't push
Again, a university education isn't a job training program. Taking classes outside of one's specialization is a feature, not a bug.
Galileo
Footballguy
Why have we devalued a well rounded education so much as a society? You mean I need to take science class even though I want to be an accountant? Oh the tragedy! Maybe this is a topic for a different thread, but I see several references to requirements for irrelevant classes. What is irrelevant about being an educated human being who can relate to many facets of life? I get the cost and time factors...definitely drawbacks and problematic. But if we continue to devalue a well rounded education, we will continue to have politicians who don't understand science...we will continue to have scientists who struggle to communicate effectively...we will still have "X" who can't relate to "Y" (fill in accordingly). I realize we can't be experts at everything, but we can be functional and competent with many things. Everyone wants to specialize. Everyone thinks they don't need such and such class. All those electives and perceived irrelevant experiences develop your brain and critical thinking skills in new and different ways contributing to the whole person. If you ask me, it is sad so many are closed minded to that. I was a physics major. But I have found there to be much value in the speech course I took, the literature course, the arts courses, the history courses, even the religious courses, etc... They have all contributed in some way to my development and have shaped who I am today. I will never understand why so many are averse to broadening their horizons. Ultimately, as someone earlier pointed out, you get out of it what you put into it. This is true of individual course work and true of the college experience as a whole.
One of the biggest problems with college, and education in general, is that people/students take the wrong approach to it. They view it as something that is supposed to be given to them rather than something to go get. It has become a series of hoops to jump through rather than a path to a better self and better society.
One of the biggest problems with college, and education in general, is that people/students take the wrong approach to it. They view it as something that is supposed to be given to them rather than something to go get. It has become a series of hoops to jump through rather than a path to a better self and better society.
Thorn
Footballguy
The problem is the ease of obtaining financing.
A host of problems flow from that, freakanomics-style. The pool of college students grows significantly. The amount each student can pay grows. The amount colleges can charge grows. Colleges start to resemble for-profit businesses because of the money involved. Applicants become more like consumers than potential students. Students (and their parents), as consumers, demand customer service out of the colleges: we want better food, lodging, fitness centers. Colleges comply and the price goes up more. But applicants are approved for mind-boggling amounts of loans, so borrowing $50,000 a year, four (or five) years in a row, is the new normal.
On the flip side, when those students graduate, because so many of them were able to attend and get degrees, the degrees have lost value relative to previous generations. They no longer provide a leg up, they barely keep pace. And when the economy falters, some of them have to work at Starbucks. Which means they have to live at home. Which means they aren't having kids and maturing the way the previous generations have. Now they are a lazy and entitled generation, when all they did was buy into the hype of "you gotta get a degree!"
There was a time when a kid could earn enough money during his/her summer to pay for next year's college. Mom and dad only had to foot the room and board bill. In that scenario, sure, take liberal arts, learn how to think, criticize, question. That's useful, valuable, good for society. But when the price tag crosses to a point where you can't move out of the house, can't marry, can't afford a kid, it is not "worth it."
A host of problems flow from that, freakanomics-style. The pool of college students grows significantly. The amount each student can pay grows. The amount colleges can charge grows. Colleges start to resemble for-profit businesses because of the money involved. Applicants become more like consumers than potential students. Students (and their parents), as consumers, demand customer service out of the colleges: we want better food, lodging, fitness centers. Colleges comply and the price goes up more. But applicants are approved for mind-boggling amounts of loans, so borrowing $50,000 a year, four (or five) years in a row, is the new normal.
On the flip side, when those students graduate, because so many of them were able to attend and get degrees, the degrees have lost value relative to previous generations. They no longer provide a leg up, they barely keep pace. And when the economy falters, some of them have to work at Starbucks. Which means they have to live at home. Which means they aren't having kids and maturing the way the previous generations have. Now they are a lazy and entitled generation, when all they did was buy into the hype of "you gotta get a degree!"
There was a time when a kid could earn enough money during his/her summer to pay for next year's college. Mom and dad only had to foot the room and board bill. In that scenario, sure, take liberal arts, learn how to think, criticize, question. That's useful, valuable, good for society. But when the price tag crosses to a point where you can't move out of the house, can't marry, can't afford a kid, it is not "worth it."
whiskey7
Footballguy
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
Tick
Footballguy
I loved taking some bonus classes in college, but don't think it should have been required. I had a scholarship that would pay for 5 years, so I slowed down and filled in with racquetball, soccer, Spanish, a Roman history class, linear algebra, and some hippy science class that was required to get latin words on the diploma (which I didn't bother getting - just English words on mine). It was a lot of fun to take those classes, but if I had been paying for the classes, I don't think they or other gen ed classes should be been required.
I liked intramural sports, too, and paid to participate in them. They made me more well-rounded... but requiring those would make about as much sense as requiring me to take Psychology.
I think I'm going to search for some free online history classes now - maybe my boy and I can find something cool and go through the course this summer.
I liked intramural sports, too, and paid to participate in them. They made me more well-rounded... but requiring those would make about as much sense as requiring me to take Psychology.
I think I'm going to search for some free online history classes now - maybe my boy and I can find something cool and go through the course this summer.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I agree with all of this in theory. I would love it if more people were well read and had knowledge of different subjects. I was the same way as you - stuff interested me and I took a variety of stuff. HOWEVER the point is that you and I were interested in that and sought out those different classes. We can't make everybody feel that way, and when you start forcing the issue (especially when you pair this with a lot of people's opinions that there are too many people in college now that shouldn't be), you just get BS classes that aren't doing what you probably intended them to me. I had engineering friends like this - they had 0 interest in anything else so all forcing them to take an elective did is fill a seat that maybe could have gone to someone who got something out of the class or take some b.s. class like The Philosophy of the The Simpsons. (you get the idea).
Fully agree with that last sentence that education has become just regurgitating info for a standardized test and jumping through a hoop. This starts well before college.
bagger
Footballguy
That's not why the "left" says that. For example I have no idea if you went to college but you are an uneducated redneck. That is due to your stated beliefs not some degree you may or may not have.
The bottom third of people in college really shouldn't be there and for profit colleges should be eliminated altogether.
many people would be better off becoming a trade like a plumber or roofer and by the time they are 30 can have their own business with no college debt and be better off than many with degrees.
NutterButter
Footballguy
i don't think my daughters would be interesting in the plumbing or roofing professions.
bagger
Footballguy
Well whatever they are interested in there are plenty of options that don't require a college degree.i don't think my daughters would be interesting in the plumbing or roofing professions.
they can get a realtor license and make bank if they do it right.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Your statement shows that you don't know ####. Redneck? Uneducated?
Please. You can't even back that up so you'll just throw some made up #### out there? You're very pathetic.
Last edited by a moderator:
NutterButter
Footballguy
i'd rather they just go to college and become a nurse if they're not going to go into a profession in the math and sciences. seems like a high in demand profession. don't think realtor has the same level of demand. its great to think that if my daughters are at the top of their profession in realty, they'll do well, but I'd rather they choose a profession where even being middle of the road pays a good wage.
NutterButter
Footballguy
For 6 figures undergrad, most of that would have to be private. I think fed loans only go up to 31k. Could get the rest privately with parents cosigning.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
They don't need 4 year school for that. They can go to tech school for a lot of careers on those lines - nurse, rad tech, etc..
NutterButter
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
