What does the confederate flag mean to you? (1 Viewer)

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

So, while at the beech this weekend, I start seeing the headlines in the papers about removing the "confederate flag" from gov't grounds etc. I got to wondering. If they removed it and replaced it with this, would anyone get upset?

They probably wouldn't know what the #### it is.

I tend to agree...yet, all these racist speeches that were made during that time were made while that flag was flying. It's staggering, how little we know about our own history when you think about it.

Seems like a good time to erase more of it

Even if it could be erased, I'm not sure that's a good idea. I think it's important that we learn our history and we embrace the problems we've gone through. That's the only way we can progress and grow. Of course, I don't have to have a flag flying to learn about it, so I really don't have an issue with taking it down. If this little exercise has taught us anything, it's that it was short sighted to not have a "half mast" option at the memorial. Had that been the case, we wouldn't be talking about this flag in any sort of substantive manner today.

I'm pretty certain that we'd still be talking about it even if they'd been flying it at half-mast.

I'd say that if this exercise has taught us anything it's that it's pretty silly to fly a Confederate flag of any kind, regardless of how recognizable it may be to the average person, because the Confederacy was really really bad and embracing it should make you feel bad.

And that is really what it comes down to for you guys, isn't it?

I think the Confederate flag is an anachronism but whether or not someone displays it should have absolutely nothing to do with how they feel. As a matter of fact, that is the absolute worst possible justification for its removal. If we're going to go down the road of removing items from public display on the grounds that they disturb someone's emotional state then it is only a matter of time before the American flag itself is taken down because it is culturally offensive to illegal immigrants.

I'm not going to engage you on this. I don't find you at all insightful, and you have a terrible habit of responding to what you want to believe people said or think rather than what they actually said because you want to turn everything into an "us vs them" battle and you need to assign everyone to a side. I just thought it was fun to contemplate how truly awful you must be at parties. I mean, say what you will about me at parties too, but at least my wife has a nice rack and I know how to find drugs for people.

I'm sorry you find the recounting of your own words so disturbing. Perhaps we should now adopt a board policy of removing posts whenever someone reads something they do not like.

Let's just stick to the current policy where you post incredibly stupid stuff and everyone calls you a dip####.

 

[General Tso]

So, while at the beech this weekend, I start seeing the headlines in the papers about removing the "confederate flag" from gov't grounds etc. I got to wondering. If they removed it and replaced it with this, would anyone get upset?

They probably wouldn't know what the #### it is.

I tend to agree...yet, all these racist speeches that were made during that time were made while that flag was flying. It's staggering, how little we know about our own history when you think about it.

Seems like a good time to erase more of it

Even if it could be erased, I'm not sure that's a good idea. I think it's important that we learn our history and we embrace the problems we've gone through. That's the only way we can progress and grow. Of course, I don't have to have a flag flying to learn about it, so I really don't have an issue with taking it down. If this little exercise has taught us anything, it's that it was short sighted to not have a "half mast" option at the memorial. Had that been the case, we wouldn't be talking about this flag in any sort of substantive manner today.

I'm pretty certain that we'd still be talking about it even if they'd been flying it at half-mast.

I'd say that if this exercise has taught us anything it's that it's pretty silly to fly a Confederate flag of any kind, regardless of how recognizable it may be to the average person, because the Confederacy was really really bad and embracing it should make you feel bad.

And that is really what it comes down to for you guys, isn't it?

I think the Confederate flag is an anachronism but whether or not someone displays it should have absolutely nothing to do with how they feel. As a matter of fact, that is the absolute worst possible justification for its removal. If we're going to go down the road of removing items from public display on the grounds that they disturb someone's emotional state then it is only a matter of time before the American flag itself is taken down because it is culturally offensive to illegal immigrants.

I'm not going to engage you on this. I don't find you at all insightful, and you have a terrible habit of responding to what you want to believe people said or think rather than what they actually said because you want to turn everything into an "us vs them" battle and you need to assign everyone to a side. I just thought it was fun to contemplate how truly awful you must be at parties. I mean, say what you will about me at parties too, but at least my wife has a nice rack and I know how to find drugs for people.

Mom must be proud. Do you deal drugs too? Because that would make you even cooler I guess.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

I don't understand why you continue to insist that we create some sort of overarching rule. Each item- a flag, a monument, a street name- can be considered by the people independently. I can give you my own opinion on each of these things, but that would just be one person's opinion. The decisions should be based on the collective opinion of a particular thing at a particular time and place, not on some inflexible standard of what is and isn't an acceptable public display.

 

[The Commish]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

If you read the descriptions of the various flags and what the symbols represent in each, only the three I listed mention the confederacy in it. For example the NC flag (where I was born and raised) is as follows:

A blue union, containing in the center thereof a white star with the letter "N" in gilt on the left and the letter "C" in gilt on the right of said star, the circle containing the same to be one-third the width of the union.

We were never taught anything about it being a representation of the confederacy. We WERE taught about the various designs and the different versions. Some of the very early versions had dates from Civil war events

 

[TPW]

So, while at the beech this weekend, I start seeing the headlines in the papers about removing the "confederate flag" from gov't grounds etc. I got to wondering. If they removed it and replaced it with this, would anyone get upset?

They probably wouldn't know what the #### it is.

I tend to agree...yet, all these racist speeches that were made during that time were made while that flag was flying. It's staggering, how little we know about our own history when you think about it.

Seems like a good time to erase more of it

Even if it could be erased, I'm not sure that's a good idea. I think it's important that we learn our history and we embrace the problems we've gone through. That's the only way we can progress and grow. Of course, I don't have to have a flag flying to learn about it, so I really don't have an issue with taking it down. If this little exercise has taught us anything, it's that it was short sighted to not have a "half mast" option at the memorial. Had that been the case, we wouldn't be talking about this flag in any sort of substantive manner today.

I'm pretty certain that we'd still be talking about it even if they'd been flying it at half-mast.

I'd say that if this exercise has taught us anything it's that it's pretty silly to fly a Confederate flag of any kind, regardless of how recognizable it may be to the average person, because the Confederacy was really really bad and embracing it should make you feel bad.

And that is really what it comes down to for you guys, isn't it?

I think the Confederate flag is an anachronism but whether or not someone displays it should have absolutely nothing to do with how they feel. As a matter of fact, that is the absolute worst possible justification for its removal. If we're going to go down the road of removing items from public display on the grounds that they disturb someone's emotional state then it is only a matter of time before the American flag itself is taken down because it is culturally offensive to illegal immigrants.

I'm not going to engage you on this. I don't find you at all insightful, and you have a terrible habit of responding to what you want to believe people said or think rather than what they actually said because you want to turn everything into an "us vs them" battle and you need to assign everyone to a side. I just thought it was fun to contemplate how truly awful you must be at parties. I mean, say what you will about me at parties too, but at least my wife has a nice rack and I know how to find drugs for people.

I'm sorry you find the recounting of your own words so disturbing. Perhaps we should now adopt a board policy of removing posts whenever someone reads something they do not like.

Let's just stick to the current policy where you post incredibly stupid stuff and everyone calls you a dip####.

Yet another resident progressive lacking the intellectual wherewithal to make a cogent response without name calling or profanity. You guys are bush-league.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Mom must be proud. Do you deal drugs too? Because that would make you even cooler I guess.

Despite the insults you regularly hurl my way, I like you, General. But maybe you sometimes take things a little too seriously?

 

[joffer]

Has anyone made a ridiculous slippery slope argument yet?

 

[matttyl]

Personally, I think the ***official*** flag is less of a big deal, but still not ok to fly at the State House. AFAIK, this is not the flag waved by white supremacists, the KKK, neo-nazis, and all of the rest.

This was the flag of a sovereign nation. South Carolina is part of the US, and I don't think it's appropriate to fly the flag of a sovereign nation on official government property.

Are there other examples where they do that? Texas, I suppose, as their state flag was the flag of the Republic of Texas. If you wanted to commemorate other countries who have had sovereignty over SC, you would have to include England.

It may surprise you to know that the above bolded group flies the American flag more than it does any Confederate one.

 

[timschochet]

TPW is right. Neither Ramsey Hunt Experience nor Tobias have the intellectual ability to counter his arguments.

 

[Short Corner]

Doesn't affect my day in the least when I see one.

 

[matttyl]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

I don't understand why you continue to insist that we create some sort of overarching rule. Each item- a flag, a monument, a street name- can be considered by the people independently. I can give you my own opinion on each of these things, but that would just be one person's opinion. The decisions should be based on the collective opinion of a particular thing at a particular time and place, not on some inflexible standard of what is and isn't an acceptable public display.

I'm not insisting anything. I'm just asking a question. So is the Washington post in the linked article. It's not the only article or quote asking these questions. Jon Stewart asked similar ones. An article posted by MT asked them as well. Why are you only attacking me when these questions are being brought up from many different places?

 

[matttyl]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

If you read the descriptions of the various flags and what the symbols represent in each, only the three I listed mention the confederacy in it. For example the NC flag (where I was born and raised) is as follows:

A blue union, containing in the center thereof a white star with the letter "N" in gilt on the left and the letter "C" in gilt on the right of said star, the circle containing the same to be one-third the width of the union.

We were never taught anything about it being a representation of the confederacy. We WERE taught about the various designs and the different versions. Some of the very early versions had dates from Civil war events

Um, read it again. Georgia and Florida both are very much based on Confederate flags, and Tennessee has it's ties as well.

Georgia - "In 2002, Sonny Perdue was elected Governor of Georgia, partly by promising voters a referendum on the new flag. In the end, the legislature changed it to a new design: it consists of the first national flag of the Confederacy (the "Stars and Bars") with the addition of the Georgia seal."

Florida - "Florida's flag is similar to Alabama's, consisting of a state seal over a red cross. The cross was added to the flag a few years after Alabama adopted its flag, at the suggestion of Governor Francis P. Fleming. Fleming had enlisted in the Confederate army in his youth, and some historians see his choice of the cross as an attempt to memorialize the confederacy."

Tennessee - "The Tennessee Legislature adopted the current flag in 1905. In a 2013 article, vexillologist Steven A Knowlton argues that "the Tennessee flag has pragmatic unity with the Confederate flag: both share the element of white stars inside a fimbriated blue charge, and the element of that blue charge on a red field." He also notes a resemblance between the flag's vertical bars and the vertical bar of the third national flag of the Confederacy."

 

[TheIronSheik]

Has anyone made a ridiculous slippery slope argument yet?

Easy with the racial epithets there, GB.

 

[GoFishTN]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

If you read the descriptions of the various flags and what the symbols represent in each, only the three I listed mention the confederacy in it. For example the NC flag (where I was born and raised) is as follows:

A blue union, containing in the center thereof a white star with the letter "N" in gilt on the left and the letter "C" in gilt on the right of said star, the circle containing the same to be one-third the width of the union.

We were never taught anything about it being a representation of the confederacy. We WERE taught about the various designs and the different versions. Some of the very early versions had dates from Civil war events

Um, read it again. Georgia and Florida both are very much based on Confederate flags, and Tennessee has it's ties as well.

Georgia - "In 2002, Sonny Perdue was elected Governor of Georgia, partly by promising voters a referendum on the new flag. In the end, the legislature changed it to a new design: it consists of the first national flag of the Confederacy (the "Stars and Bars") with the addition of the Georgia seal."

Florida - "Florida's flag is similar to Alabama's, consisting of a state seal over a red cross. The cross was added to the flag a few years after Alabama adopted its flag, at the suggestion of Governor Francis P. Fleming. Fleming had enlisted in the Confederate army in his youth, and some historians see his choice of the cross as an attempt to memorialize the confederacy."

Tennessee - "The Tennessee Legislature adopted the current flag in 1905. In a 2013 article, vexillologist Steven A Knowlton argues that "the Tennessee flag has pragmatic unity with the Confederate flag: both share the element of white stars inside a fimbriated blue charge, and the element of that blue charge on a red field." He also notes a resemblance between the flag's vertical bars and the vertical bar of the third national flag of the Confederacy."

I'm tired of seeing the Tennessee flag dragged into this because Steven A Knowlton says so. It was adopted 40 years after the Civil War and while the colors are shared, the stars represent the three divisions of the state (east, central, west). They have nothing to do with the Confederate flag.

Edit: There's also another red, white, and blue flag with white stars on a blue background. You might have heard of it.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Personally, I think the ***official*** flag is less of a big deal, but still not ok to fly at the State House. AFAIK, this is not the flag waved by white supremacists, the KKK, neo-nazis, and all of the rest.

This was the flag of a sovereign nation. South Carolina is part of the US, and I don't think it's appropriate to fly the flag of a sovereign nation on official government property.

Are there other examples where they do that? Texas, I suppose, as their state flag was the flag of the Republic of Texas. If you wanted to commemorate other countries who have had sovereignty over SC, you would have to include England.

It may surprise you to know that the above bolded group flies the American flag more than it does any Confederate one.

Time to take it down!!!!

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

If you read the descriptions of the various flags and what the symbols represent in each, only the three I listed mention the confederacy in it. For example the NC flag (where I was born and raised) is as follows:

A blue union, containing in the center thereof a white star with the letter "N" in gilt on the left and the letter "C" in gilt on the right of said star, the circle containing the same to be one-third the width of the union.

We were never taught anything about it being a representation of the confederacy. We WERE taught about the various designs and the different versions. Some of the very early versions had dates from Civil war events

Um, read it again. Georgia and Florida both are very much based on Confederate flags, and Tennessee has it's ties as well.

Georgia - "In 2002, Sonny Perdue was elected Governor of Georgia, partly by promising voters a referendum on the new flag. In the end, the legislature changed it to a new design: it consists of the first national flag of the Confederacy (the "Stars and Bars") with the addition of the Georgia seal."

Florida - "Florida's flag is similar to Alabama's, consisting of a state seal over a red cross. The cross was added to the flag a few years after Alabama adopted its flag, at the suggestion of Governor Francis P. Fleming. Fleming had enlisted in the Confederate army in his youth, and some historians see his choice of the cross as an attempt to memorialize the confederacy."

Tennessee - "The Tennessee Legislature adopted the current flag in 1905. In a 2013 article, vexillologist Steven A Knowlton argues that "the Tennessee flag has pragmatic unity with the Confederate flag: both share the element of white stars inside a fimbriated blue charge, and the element of that blue charge on a red field." He also notes a resemblance between the flag's vertical bars and the vertical bar of the third national flag of the Confederacy."

I'm tired of seeing the Tennessee flag dragged into this because Steven A Knowlton says so. It was adopted 40 years after the Civil War and while the colors are shared, the stars represent the three divisions of the state (east, central, west). They have nothing to do with the Confederate flag.

Edit: There's also another red, white, and blue flag with white stars on a blue background. You might have heard of it.

30-70 years post CW is right in the wheelhouse of when most of the CW icons were trotted out, Arkansas updated their flag in 1923 IIRC. Arkansas is probably also the only exception because for some bizarre reason they went out of their way to reconfirm their CW "heritage" on their flag again in 1987. But all the rest occurred in that Jim Crow segregation era or again in the civil rights era (which is when the battle flag went up over the SC capitol).

 

[The Commish]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

If you read the descriptions of the various flags and what the symbols represent in each, only the three I listed mention the confederacy in it. For example the NC flag (where I was born and raised) is as follows:

A blue union, containing in the center thereof a white star with the letter "N" in gilt on the left and the letter "C" in gilt on the right of said star, the circle containing the same to be one-third the width of the union.

We were never taught anything about it being a representation of the confederacy. We WERE taught about the various designs and the different versions. Some of the very early versions had dates from Civil war events

Um, read it again. Georgia and Florida both are very much based on Confederate flags, and Tennessee has it's ties as well.

Georgia - "In 2002, Sonny Perdue was elected Governor of Georgia, partly by promising voters a referendum on the new flag. In the end, the legislature changed it to a new design: it consists of the first national flag of the Confederacy (the "Stars and Bars") with the addition of the Georgia seal."

Florida - "Florida's flag is similar to Alabama's, consisting of a state seal over a red cross. The cross was added to the flag a few years after Alabama adopted its flag, at the suggestion of Governor Francis P. Fleming. Fleming had enlisted in the Confederate army in his youth, and some historians see his choice of the cross as an attempt to memorialize the confederacy."

Tennessee - "The Tennessee Legislature adopted the current flag in 1905. In a 2013 article, vexillologist Steven A Knowlton argues that "the Tennessee flag has pragmatic unity with the Confederate flag: both share the element of white stars inside a fimbriated blue charge, and the element of that blue charge on a red field." He also notes a resemblance between the flag's vertical bars and the vertical bar of the third national flag of the Confederacy."

I'm sure you can find all kinds of people who will suggest X or Y. Of what you listed, the Florida one seems the most compelling to be added to the list I had created. I was on a page of descriptions of the flag. I was ignoring the comments made by individuals as to what the flag meant etc (see GoFishTN)

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

TPW is right. Neither Ramsey Hunt Experience nor Tobias have the intellectual ability to counter his arguments.

I also lack the intellectual capacity to counter the arguments that a chimpanzee makes when he smears his feces against the wall. So I usually just point and laugh.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The piece about Tillman should highlight that 1890-1899 period, that's when Jim Crow really started to take hold. The confederate flag went up over the SC capitol dome in 1961, obviously during the segregation crisis. Before that other commemorations had occurred during much of the Jim Crow era but then again during the civil rights era. Mississippi added in its flag emblem into its flag in 1894. Alabama's flag was adopted 1895. Florida added its red cross in 1900. Tennessee adopted its flag with confederate stylings in 1905. Georgia was 1956. Arkansas added its fourth star in its flag in 1923, but it was reaffirmed in 1987. SC moved the flag from the dome but put it in from of the capitol in 2000.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

These are the years of the flag changes from what I can tell.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Has anyone made a ridiculous slippery slope argument yet?

Easy with the racial epithets there, GB.

This post deserves more love.

 

[Todd Andrews]

So, while at the beech this weekend, I start seeing the headlines in the papers about removing the "confederate flag" from gov't grounds etc. I got to wondering. If they removed it and replaced it with this, would anyone get upset?

They probably wouldn't know what the #### it is.

Correct. So what happens if the "battle flag" is banned/restricted/whatever term you want to use and stores and online retailers stop selling it - but then this ***official flag*** starts being used in it's place? Will it also be banned/restricted, thus causing a few more states to have to change their flags and seals?

No, stores probably wouldnt do anything because the history of the two flags is entirely different. Neither should be flown on state grounds.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Did I miss this in here? http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/06/confederate_flag_removed_from.html

 

[njherdfan]

So, while at the beech this weekend, I start seeing the headlines in the papers about removing the "confederate flag" from gov't grounds etc. I got to wondering. If they removed it and replaced it with this, would anyone get upset?

They probably wouldn't know what the #### it is.

Correct. So what happens if the "battle flag" is banned/restricted/whatever term you want to use and stores and online retailers stop selling it - but then this ***official flag*** starts being used in it's place? Will it also be banned/restricted, thus causing a few more states to have to change their flags and seals?

Personally, I think the ***official*** flag is less of a big deal, but still not ok to fly at the State House. AFAIK, this is not the flag waved by white supremacists, the KKK, neo-nazis, and all of the rest.

This was the flag of a sovereign nation. South Carolina is part of the US, and I don't think it's appropriate to fly the flag of a sovereign nation on official government property.

Are there other examples where they do that? Texas, I suppose, as their state flag was the flag of the Republic of Texas. If you wanted to commemorate other countries who have had sovereignty over SC, you would have to include England.

What I'm asking is what if it becomes that? And more than just the types of people you listed, but for anyone who may genuinely have some sort of "Southern pride" behind it? As Amazon, Wal-mart, and Target already have removed the battle flag and it's derivatives from shelves (with others sure to follow), what if all the people and organizations and groups who today fly (or otherwise show off) the battle flag simply start flying the ***official flag*** which would presumably still be available? Would that symbol then be banned/restricted as well when we have this fight all over again in 10 years?

Look at where this current situation really started - Dylan Roof, and a picture of him with the battle flag and with that symbol on his license plate. What if instead of that flag, he was waiving the ***official one***? Would those retailers have done the same thing?

I really don't like these slippery slope arguments, because I find they tend to be made by people who object to the original action (in this case removing the battle flag from the SC capitol) but don't want to come out and say it. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that the answer to your original question is a very broad "yes." State governments collectively decide that they don't want state sponsorship of anything having to do with the Confederacy because of what it represents. If that's the case, do you think that the flag should stay up at the SC capitol?

 

[matttyl]

I'm sure you can find all kinds of people who will suggest X or Y. Of what you listed, the Florida one seems the most compelling to be added to the list I had created. I was on a page of descriptions of the flag. I was ignoring the comments made by individuals as to what the flag meant etc (see GoFishTN)

Yeah, Georgia's is more like a Confederate flag than any other state. It's literally the official Confederate flag with their state seal on it.

 

[flapgreen]

The venom produced from each side on the subject of the flag is the issue now, as evidenced by this thread. The flag is nothing more than an object. Personally, I don't really care if it's removed or not. I don't get upset about it. Just one guy's feelings.

 

[flapgreen]

Doesn't affect my day in the least when I see one.

yep

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

The venom produced from each side on the subject of the flag is the issue now, as evidenced by this thread. The flag is nothing more than an object. Personally, I don't really care if it's removed or not. I don't get upset about it. Just one guy's feelings.

Well as long as you're not bothered by it I guess everything is OK.

 

[matttyl]

So, while at the beech this weekend, I start seeing the headlines in the papers about removing the "confederate flag" from gov't grounds etc. I got to wondering. If they removed it and replaced it with this, would anyone get upset?

They probably wouldn't know what the #### it is.

Correct. So what happens if the "battle flag" is banned/restricted/whatever term you want to use and stores and online retailers stop selling it - but then this ***official flag*** starts being used in it's place? Will it also be banned/restricted, thus causing a few more states to have to change their flags and seals?

No, stores probably wouldnt do anything because the history of the two flags is entirely different. Neither should be flown on state grounds.

My question is what if the history of the second repeats the history of the first? What if there is another horrible incident like the one in SC and instead of the battle flag the Dylan Roof person is waiving the "stars and bars". Will it then be viewed as a "racist symbol" and be removed from stores?

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

http://m.imgur.com/AiYLf2d

 

[Slapdash]

So, while at the beech this weekend, I start seeing the headlines in the papers about removing the "confederate flag" from gov't grounds etc. I got to wondering. If they removed it and replaced it with this, would anyone get upset?

They probably wouldn't know what the #### it is.

Correct. So what happens if the "battle flag" is banned/restricted/whatever term you want to use and stores and online retailers stop selling it - but then this ***official flag*** starts being used in it's place? Will it also be banned/restricted, thus causing a few more states to have to change their flags and seals?

No, stores probably wouldnt do anything because the history of the two flags is entirely different. Neither should be flown on state grounds.

My question is what if the history of the second repeats the history of the first? What if there is another horrible incident like the one in SC and instead of the battle flag the Dylan Roof person is waiving the "stars and bars". Will it then be viewed as a "racist symbol" and be removed from stores?

Probably. Just like they banned the artists Columbine killers listened to....right?

 

[roadkill1292]

Doesn't affect my day in the least when I see one.

yep

 

[matttyl]

So, while at the beech this weekend, I start seeing the headlines in the papers about removing the "confederate flag" from gov't grounds etc. I got to wondering. If they removed it and replaced it with this, would anyone get upset?

They probably wouldn't know what the #### it is.

Correct. So what happens if the "battle flag" is banned/restricted/whatever term you want to use and stores and online retailers stop selling it - but then this ***official flag*** starts being used in it's place? Will it also be banned/restricted, thus causing a few more states to have to change their flags and seals?

Personally, I think the ***official*** flag is less of a big deal, but still not ok to fly at the State House. AFAIK, this is not the flag waved by white supremacists, the KKK, neo-nazis, and all of the rest.

This was the flag of a sovereign nation. South Carolina is part of the US, and I don't think it's appropriate to fly the flag of a sovereign nation on official government property.

Are there other examples where they do that? Texas, I suppose, as their state flag was the flag of the Republic of Texas. If you wanted to commemorate other countries who have had sovereignty over SC, you would have to include England.

What I'm asking is what if it becomes that? And more than just the types of people you listed, but for anyone who may genuinely have some sort of "Southern pride" behind it? As Amazon, Wal-mart, and Target already have removed the battle flag and it's derivatives from shelves (with others sure to follow), what if all the people and organizations and groups who today fly (or otherwise show off) the battle flag simply start flying the ***official flag*** which would presumably still be available? Would that symbol then be banned/restricted as well when we have this fight all over again in 10 years?

Look at where this current situation really started - Dylan Roof, and a picture of him with the battle flag and with that symbol on his license plate. What if instead of that flag, he was waiving the ***official one***? Would those retailers have done the same thing?

I really don't like these slippery slope arguments, because I find they tend to be made by people who object to the original action (in this case removing the battle flag from the SC capitol) but don't want to come out and say it. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that the answer to your original question is a very broad "yes." State governments collectively decide that they don't want state sponsorship of anything having to do with the Confederacy because of what it represents. If that's the case, do you think that the flag should stay up at the SC capitol?

You must have missed my first post on this topic....thanks for generalizing, though.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

I don't understand why you continue to insist that we create some sort of overarching rule. Each item- a flag, a monument, a street name- can be considered by the people independently. I can give you my own opinion on each of these things, but that would just be one person's opinion. The decisions should be based on the collective opinion of a particular thing at a particular time and place, not on some inflexible standard of what is and isn't an acceptable public display.

I'm not insisting anything. I'm just asking a question. So is the Washington post in the linked article. It's not the only article or quote asking these questions. Jon Stewart asked similar ones. An article posted by MT asked them as well. Why are you only attacking me when these questions are being brought up from many different places?

It's not just you- I've replied to Commish the same way, in fact I thought I was replying to him here because I didn't read carefully.

I just don't think it makes sense to group all of these things together. One could argue that maybe 2 or 3 of the state flags that are clearly meant to evoke of the Confederacy (Mississippi and Georgia for sure, Alabama probably) should be changed. Beyond that it seems like an apples and oranges comparison.

Also I think the difference between what you're doing and what the articles and Stewart did is that the articles seem focused only on drawing attention to these matters-raising the questions- while you and Commish and others seem to be seeking resolution or maybe making a slippery slope argument. i.e. they're saying "hey maybe we should change this too?" whereas you're asking "if we change this does that also mean we have to change this too?" I might be reading you guys wrong, who knows, but that's how it's coming across to me.

 

[Fennis]

http://m.imgur.com/AiYLf2d

Ted Cruz really needs to stop with his status updates

 

[matttyl]

It's not just you- I've replied to Commish the same way, in fact I thought I was replying to him here because I didn't read carefully.

I just don't think it makes sense to group all of these things together. One could argue that maybe 2 or 3 of the state flags that are clearly meant to evoke of the Confederacy (Mississippi and Georgia for sure, Alabama probably) should be changed. Beyond that it seems like an apples and oranges comparison.

Also I think the difference between what you're doing and what the articles and Stewart did is that the articles seem focused only on drawing attention to these matters-raising the questions- while you and Commish and others seem to be seeking resolution or maybe making a slippery slope argument. i.e. they're saying "hey maybe we should change this too?" whereas you're asking "if we change this does that also mean we have to change this too?" I might be reading you guys wrong, who knows, but that's how it's coming across to me.

Interesting, less than 48 hours ago you said "In no way shape or form do any of those except maybe the Mississippi state flag and the Alabama Coat of Arms resemble "well-known flags" of the Confederacy." Now it's "Mississippi and Georgia for sure, Alabama probably." See how quickly one can become "2 or 3 of the state flags"?

As for the questions being raised by me and those being raised by the articles and Stewart, maybe I'm misunderstanding him when he was discussing the road names in the South saying "you can't allow that". And honestly, what's the difference between a road named after Lee or Jackson, and a school, or a military base. or sports team? I mean, if you do change a road name, wouldn't you then have to change a school name? How are they any different? You drive on one, you drive past the other.

 

[The Commish]

So, while at the beech this weekend, I start seeing the headlines in the papers about removing the "confederate flag" from gov't grounds etc. I got to wondering. If they removed it and replaced it with this, would anyone get upset?

They probably wouldn't know what the #### it is.

Correct. So what happens if the "battle flag" is banned/restricted/whatever term you want to use and stores and online retailers stop selling it - but then this ***official flag*** starts being used in it's place? Will it also be banned/restricted, thus causing a few more states to have to change their flags and seals?

No, stores probably wouldnt do anything because the history of the two flags is entirely different. Neither should be flown on state grounds.

My question is what if the history of the second repeats the history of the first? What if there is another horrible incident like the one in SC and instead of the battle flag the Dylan Roof person is waiving the "stars and bars". Will it then be viewed as a "racist symbol" and be removed from stores?

This is already the case with the KKK and the US National flag It's prominently displayed in just about everything they do.

 

[Mjolnirs]

The piece about Tillman should highlight that 1890-1899 period, that's when Jim Crow really started to take hold. The confederate flag went up over the SC capitol dome in 1961, obviously during the segregation crisis. Before that other commemorations had occurred during much of the Jim Crow era but then again during the civil rights era. Mississippi added in its flag emblem into its flag in 1894. Alabama's flag was adopted 1895. Florida added its red cross in 1900. Tennessee adopted its flag with confederate stylings in 1905. Georgia was 1956. Arkansas added its fourth star in its flag in 1923, but it was reaffirmed in 1987. SC moved the flag from the dome but put it in from of the capitol in 2000.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

These are the years of the flag changes from what I can tell.

You might as well add my avatar."The flag that flies over the state of South Carolina today is of the same design that flew over the independent South Carolina during the Civil War."

 

[TobiasFunke]

It's not just you- I've replied to Commish the same way, in fact I thought I was replying to him here because I didn't read carefully.

I just don't think it makes sense to group all of these things together. One could argue that maybe 2 or 3 of the state flags that are clearly meant to evoke of the Confederacy (Mississippi and Georgia for sure, Alabama probably) should be changed. Beyond that it seems like an apples and oranges comparison.

Also I think the difference between what you're doing and what the articles and Stewart did is that the articles seem focused only on drawing attention to these matters-raising the questions- while you and Commish and others seem to be seeking resolution or maybe making a slippery slope argument. i.e. they're saying "hey maybe we should change this too?" whereas you're asking "if we change this does that also mean we have to change this too?" I might be reading you guys wrong, who knows, but that's how it's coming across to me.

Interesting, less than 48 hours ago you said "In no way shape or form do any of those except maybe the Mississippi state flag and the Alabama Coat of Arms resemble "well-known flags" of the Confederacy." Now it's "Mississippi and Georgia for sure, Alabama probably." See how quickly one can become "2 or 3 of the state flags"?

As for the questions being raised by me and those being raised by the articles and Stewart, maybe I'm misunderstanding him when he was discussing the road names in the South saying "you can't allow that". And honestly, what's the difference between a road named after Lee or Jackson, and a school, or a military base. or sports team? I mean, if you do change a road name, wouldn't you then have to change a school name? How are they any different? You drive on one, you drive past the other.

"well-known" would be the key variable there. The Confederate one that the Georgia flag resembles is not well-known, but that doesn't mean it should stay up.

Stewart was saying "let's maybe change this particular thing," which is a fine position to take. You seem to be pursuing a universal rule or perhaps making a slippery slope argument? That slippery slope argument- "if we change a flag does that also mean we have to change another flag, and the names of streets somehow related to the reason we're changing the flag, and then also the names of towns related to that thing?- is what I think is kind of silly. Maybe that's not what you're saying? I dunno.

Also, as for your more narrow question in this post- yeah, if we want to change a road that's named for someone or something we should probably also change the name of a school, base or sports team named for that same thing. It's impossible to say for certain without the context, but it seems like that would usually be the case.

 

[The Commish]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

I don't understand why you continue to insist that we create some sort of overarching rule. Each item- a flag, a monument, a street name- can be considered by the people independently. I can give you my own opinion on each of these things, but that would just be one person's opinion. The decisions should be based on the collective opinion of a particular thing at a particular time and place, not on some inflexible standard of what is and isn't an acceptable public display.

I'm not insisting anything. I'm just asking a question. So is the Washington post in the linked article. It's not the only article or quote asking these questions. Jon Stewart asked similar ones. An article posted by MT asked them as well. Why are you only attacking me when these questions are being brought up from many different places?

It's not just you- I've replied to Commish the same way, in fact I thought I was replying to him here because I didn't read carefully.

I just don't think it makes sense to group all of these things together. One could argue that maybe 2 or 3 of the state flags that are clearly meant to evoke of the Confederacy (Mississippi and Georgia for sure, Alabama probably) should be changed. Beyond that it seems like an apples and oranges comparison.

Also I think the difference between what you're doing and what the articles and Stewart did is that the articles seem focused only on drawing attention to these matters-raising the questions- while you and Commish and others seem to be seeking resolution or maybe making a slippery slope argument. i.e. they're saying "hey maybe we should change this too?" whereas you're asking "if we change this does that also mean we have to change this too?" I might be reading you guys wrong, who knows, but that's how it's coming across to me.

I don't know which specific JS comments you are speaking of, but all the ones I have seen lend to the context of the latter here. In fact, I see no real significant difference between the two bold statements, so as far as I'm concerned, you can intertwine them and I wouldn't object

 

[proninja]

Has anyone made a ridiculous slippery slope argument yet?

Easy with the racial epithets there, GB.

I continue to be astounded at how you are both conservative and are able to have a sense of humor in a political discussion.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

I don't understand why you continue to insist that we create some sort of overarching rule. Each item- a flag, a monument, a street name- can be considered by the people independently. I can give you my own opinion on each of these things, but that would just be one person's opinion. The decisions should be based on the collective opinion of a particular thing at a particular time and place, not on some inflexible standard of what is and isn't an acceptable public display.

I'm not insisting anything. I'm just asking a question. So is the Washington post in the linked article. It's not the only article or quote asking these questions. Jon Stewart asked similar ones. An article posted by MT asked them as well. Why are you only attacking me when these questions are being brought up from many different places?

It's not just you- I've replied to Commish the same way, in fact I thought I was replying to him here because I didn't read carefully.

I just don't think it makes sense to group all of these things together. One could argue that maybe 2 or 3 of the state flags that are clearly meant to evoke of the Confederacy (Mississippi and Georgia for sure, Alabama probably) should be changed. Beyond that it seems like an apples and oranges comparison.

Also I think the difference between what you're doing and what the articles and Stewart did is that the articles seem focused only on drawing attention to these matters-raising the questions- while you and Commish and others seem to be seeking resolution or maybe making a slippery slope argument. i.e. they're saying "hey maybe we should change this too?" whereas you're asking "if we change this does that also mean we have to change this too?" I might be reading you guys wrong, who knows, but that's how it's coming across to me.

I don't know which specific JS comments you are speaking of, but all the ones I have seen lend to the context of the latter here. In fact, I see no real significant difference between the two bold statements, so as far as I'm concerned, you can intertwine them and I wouldn't object

They're very different statements. One is saying we should maybe change B independent of the decision to change A (even if the reasons are similar, it doesn't assume the analysis is the same). The other is saying if we change A then maybe we also have to change B. The latter removes context from the equation, and is a slippery slope argument.

 

[matttyl]

So Amazon didn't just remove the "battle flag", they've also removed the "stars and bars" (official Confederate flag) from sale. So I guess my question from this morning "would retailers remove that flag as well" has been answered......

They are also removing certain "Bonnie Blue" flags as well.

And Warner brothers will no longer make "General Lee" replica cars.

 

[The Commish]

Alabama
Arkansas
Mississippi

Are the three states that have reference to the confederacy in their state flags. Do we care?

Add Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina. 7 in total, as well as a few state seals and coat of arms and such.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

As I asked a few days ago....where do we draw the line? Are roads to be next?

I don't understand why you continue to insist that we create some sort of overarching rule. Each item- a flag, a monument, a street name- can be considered by the people independently. I can give you my own opinion on each of these things, but that would just be one person's opinion. The decisions should be based on the collective opinion of a particular thing at a particular time and place, not on some inflexible standard of what is and isn't an acceptable public display.

I'm not insisting anything. I'm just asking a question. So is the Washington post in the linked article. It's not the only article or quote asking these questions. Jon Stewart asked similar ones. An article posted by MT asked them as well. Why are you only attacking me when these questions are being brought up from many different places?

It's not just you- I've replied to Commish the same way, in fact I thought I was replying to him here because I didn't read carefully.

I just don't think it makes sense to group all of these things together. One could argue that maybe 2 or 3 of the state flags that are clearly meant to evoke of the Confederacy (Mississippi and Georgia for sure, Alabama probably) should be changed. Beyond that it seems like an apples and oranges comparison.

Also I think the difference between what you're doing and what the articles and Stewart did is that the articles seem focused only on drawing attention to these matters-raising the questions- while you and Commish and others seem to be seeking resolution or maybe making a slippery slope argument. i.e. they're saying "hey maybe we should change this too?" whereas you're asking "if we change this does that also mean we have to change this too?" I might be reading you guys wrong, who knows, but that's how it's coming across to me.

I don't know which specific JS comments you are speaking of, but all the ones I have seen lend to the context of the latter here. In fact, I see no real significant difference between the two bold statements, so as far as I'm concerned, you can intertwine them and I wouldn't object

They're very different statements. One is saying we should maybe change B independent of the decision to change A (even if the reasons are similar, it doesn't assume the analysis is the same). The other is saying if we change A then maybe we also have to change B. The latter removes context from the equation, and is a slippery slope argument.

When I watched him and his comments it seemed like he was asking where the line was to be drawn That's just how I interpreted it real time. His comments since haven't really caused me to rethink it. That's all I got....just giving you how I processed it. I'm not sure why asking the question of where the line should be drawn is a slippery slope. If anything, the topic of "offensive" in this country is a very blurred line, mostly due to context and "political correctness" .

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

The piece about Tillman should highlight that 1890-1899 period, that's when Jim Crow really started to take hold. The confederate flag went up over the SC capitol dome in 1961, obviously during the segregation crisis. Before that other commemorations had occurred during much of the Jim Crow era but then again during the civil rights era. Mississippi added in its flag emblem into its flag in 1894. Alabama's flag was adopted 1895. Florida added its red cross in 1900. Tennessee adopted its flag with confederate stylings in 1905. Georgia was 1956. Arkansas added its fourth star in its flag in 1923, but it was reaffirmed in 1987. SC moved the flag from the dome but put it in from of the capitol in 2000. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/21/how-the-confederacy-lives-on-in-the-flags-of-seven-southern-states/

These are the years of the flag changes from what I can tell.

You might as well add my avatar."The flag that flies over the state of South Carolina today is of the same design that flew over the independent South Carolina during the Civil War."

It's pretty Muslim looking too.

 

[TobiasFunke]

They're very different statements. One is saying we should maybe change B independent of the decision to change A (even if the reasons are similar, it doesn't assume the analysis is the same). The other is saying if we change A then maybe we also have to change B. The latter removes context from the equation, and is a slippery slope argument.

When I watched him and his comments it seemed like he was asking where the line was to be drawn That's just how I interpreted it real time. It was my interpretation at the time. His comments since haven't really caused me to rethink it. That's all I got....just giving you how I processed it. I'm not sure why asking the question of where the line should be drawn is a slippery slope. If anything, the topic of "offensive" in this country is a very blurred line, mostly due to context and "political correctness" .

It's not really a slippery slope argument unless you're arguing that maybe we shouldn't change any of it, or that we should be wary of changing any of it, because if we do where will we draw the line? ... which is what you start to sound like when you complain of "political correctness." I don't know if that's where you were going with it or not.

Anyway, who knows what Stewart meant, I shouldn't have just assumed I did, I barely remember watching his speech, so my bad. As for where the line should be drawn, my point is that these things aren't on a spectrum that allow you to draw a line. Certain things are OK in some contexts and not others. Certain things people might find questionable for totally different reasons than the reasons that lead people to want to remove or change a flag. Certain things that are acceptable now might not seem acceptable in 20 years. Who knows- we don't have to decide in advance on a univeral rule that applies to everything.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

So Amazon didn't just remove the "battle flag", they've also removed the "stars and bars" (official Confederate flag) from sale. So I guess my question from this morning "would retailers remove that flag as well" has been answered......

They are also removing certain "Bonnie Blue" flags as well.

And Warner brothers will no longer make "General Lee" replica cars.

Good

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I don't see how we have to know where the line is or why everyone has to have the same line. That's why I call the Stars & Bars low hanging fruit. Reasonable people may disagree over the propriety of a Robert E. Lee High School. I think support for Jefferson Davis Highway is slightly less reasonable. But support for the state display of the Stars & Bars is simply unreasonable.

I suspect, but I cannot prove, that in 20 years some of the more reasonable disagreements won't seem as reasonable because the veneration of heroes of the Confederacy will just seem more and more out of place. I will say this. Assume your worst case scenario. Society decides that state displays or commemoration of any Confederate figure is inappropriate. Is that really such a terrible result? Nobody is arguing that Stonewall Jackson should be struck from the history books. Just maybe rename Stonewall Jackson High School so that its Medgar Evers High School or something. God knows that the world didn't end when they started renaming everything after Reagan.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Has anyone made a ridiculous slippery slope argument yet?

Easy with the racial epithets there, GB.

I continue to be astounded at how you are both conservative and are able to have a sense of humor in a political discussion.

Not a conservative. Middle of the road.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

So, while at the beech this weekend, I start seeing the headlines in the papers about removing the "confederate flag" from gov't grounds etc. I got to wondering. If they removed it and replaced it with this, would anyone get upset?

They probably wouldn't know what the #### it is.

I tend to agree...yet, all these racist speeches that were made during that time were made while that flag was flying. It's staggering, how little we know about our own history when you think about it.

Seems like a good time to erase more of it

Even if it could be erased, I'm not sure that's a good idea. I think it's important that we learn our history and we embrace the problems we've gone through. That's the only way we can progress and grow. Of course, I don't have to have a flag flying to learn about it, so I really don't have an issue with taking it down. If this little exercise has taught us anything, it's that it was short sighted to not have a "half mast" option at the memorial. Had that been the case, we wouldn't be talking about this flag in any sort of substantive manner today.

I'm pretty certain that we'd still be talking about it even if they'd been flying it at half-mast.

I'd say that if this exercise has taught us anything it's that it's pretty silly to fly a Confederate flag of any kind, regardless of how recognizable it may be to the average person, because the Confederacy was really really bad and embracing it should make you feel bad.

And that is really what it comes down to for you guys, isn't it?

I think the Confederate flag is an anachronism but whether or not someone displays it should have absolutely nothing to do with how they feel. As a matter of fact, that is the absolute worst possible justification for its removal. If we're going to go down the road of removing items from public display on the grounds that they disturb someone's emotional state then it is only a matter of time before the American flag itself is taken down because it is culturally offensive to illegal immigrants.

I'm not going to engage you on this. I don't find you at all insightful, and you have a terrible habit of responding to what you want to believe people said or think rather than what they actually said because you want to turn everything into an "us vs them" battle and you need to assign everyone to a side. I just thought it was fun to contemplate how truly awful you must be at parties. I mean, say what you will about me at parties too, but at least my wife has a nice rack and I know how to find drugs for people.

PM sent.

 

[The Commish]

They're very different statements. One is saying we should maybe change B independent of the decision to change A (even if the reasons are similar, it doesn't assume the analysis is the same). The other is saying if we change A then maybe we also have to change B. The latter removes context from the equation, and is a slippery slope argument.

When I watched him and his comments it seemed like he was asking where the line was to be drawn That's just how I interpreted it real time. It was my interpretation at the time. His comments since haven't really caused me to rethink it. That's all I got....just giving you how I processed it. I'm not sure why asking the question of where the line should be drawn is a slippery slope. If anything, the topic of "offensive" in this country is a very blurred line, mostly due to context and "political correctness" .

It's not really a slippery slope argument unless you're arguing that maybe we shouldn't change any of it, or that we should be wary of changing any of it, because if we do where will we draw the line? ... which is what you start to sound like when you complain of "political correctness." I don't know if that's where you were going with it or not.

Anyway, who knows what Stewart meant, I shouldn't have just assumed I did, I barely remember watching his speech, so my bad. As for where the line should be drawn, my point is that these things aren't on a spectrum that allow you to draw a line. Certain things are OK in some contexts and not others. Certain things people might find questionable for totally different reasons than the reasons that lead people to want to remove or change a flag. Certain things that are acceptable now might not seem acceptable in 20 years. Who knows- we don't have to decide in advance on a univeral rule that applies to everything.

My comment about "political correctness" is a nod to asking the question WHY. Or asking about the context. I'm generally with you here in all things you've said AS LONG AS we take time to understand the context under which we are operating. I'm not ok with one saying "Flying the battle flag is bad in all instances" because that's not true. That's the very broad brush and lack of understanding I protest. Because I had the exact same attitude as those who have used this broad brush in the past, I'll give you the example that gave me pause and caused me to rethink my position.

I had a neighbor who was in his mid 90s that always flew the battle flag in his yard. I made the typical assumptions about him and had made up my mind about him long before I ever met him. One day, I saw an ambulance outside his house, so I went over to make sure all was ok. That began a relationship between us and many many many conversations over a two year period. Long story short (if not too late already) he flew the flag because one of his ancestors lost their life because they were freeing slaves and helping them get away from all the nonsense. He was killed by members of the union army trying to get his last group of slaves their freedom. He flew it as a memorial to his ancestors. I stopped having a problem with him flying that flag.