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What does the confederate flag mean to you? (1 Viewer)

Doug B said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Anna Robb said in one hour Thursday, more than 300 orders came in. This time last week, she estimates they were getting about a dozen orders in a day.
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This is called burying the lede.
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SID2006, I'd seen a similar report about a "flag store" on Magazine Street (for the house: in Uptown N.O.). Huge run on Confederate flags and paraphernalia.
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Wow, really? There is a flag store on Mag in the Garden District but it's not dedicated to confederate stuff, it's crammed with all kinds of stuff. But with everything going on I guess I'm not surprised.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Doug B said:
SID2006, I'd seen a similar report about a "flag store" on Magazine Street (for the house: in Uptown N.O.). Huge run on Confederate flags and paraphernalia.
Click to expand...
Wow, really? There is a flag store on Mag in the Garden District but it's not dedicated to confederate stuff, it's crammed with all kinds of stuff. But with everything going on I guess I'm not surprised.
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Yeah, my wife saw it on Facebook, and didn't know the same of the shop. But I found a WGNO report with the details.

Anyone that walks by that shop, though, can readily tell it is the polar opposite of "redneck".

 
Doug B said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Doug B said:
SID2006, I'd seen a similar report about a "flag store" on Magazine Street (for the house: in Uptown N.O.). Huge run on Confederate flags and paraphernalia.
Click to expand...
Wow, really? There is a flag store on Mag in the Garden District but it's not dedicated to confederate stuff, it's crammed with all kinds of stuff. But with everything going on I guess I'm not surprised.
Click to expand...
Yeah, my wife saw it on Facebook, and didn't know the same of the shop. But I found a WGNO report with the details.

Anyone that walks by that shop, though, can readily tell it is the polar opposite of "redneck".
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Yeah that's the place I was thinking of. It's not anything like the shop in that report Henry posted from AL.

 
The Mystery of St. Louis's Veiled ProphetRacial and class tensions are nothing new in the city, as the story of a parade founded by white elites in 1877 to protect their position shows.

There’s a lot that I love about St. Louis, the city I was born in: baseball, the free zoo and art museum, a rich cultural history that stretches from T.S. Eliot to Miles Davis, and, of course, all of my friends and family. But the city’s inability to deal with its history of racial inequality, always closely tied to class issues, has run parallel to the city’s cultural and economic decline, leaving it in something resembling a stupor. A case study in this long decline can be found in the emblematic history of the annual Fair Saint Louis.

Held annually every Fourth of July, usually in downtown St. Louis, Fair St. Louis is a festival that includes food, music, hot-air balloons, and fireworks. Touted as “America’s Biggest Birthday Party”, it’s basically just a fun excuse to enjoy the usually hot and humid St. Louis Fourth of Julys with friends and family. This summer, due to construction along the Mississippi riverfront, the fair was held in Forest Park, a jewel of a turn-of-the-century public park built for the 1904 World’s Fair.

Attaching Fair St. Louis to these monuments of St. Louis’ former grandeur, the Gateway Arch and Forest Park, is fun and completely in the spirit of civic celebration, but also overshadows the dark and sordid history of the fair itself. Until the early ’90s I knew Fair Saint Louis by its older name, the VP Fair. VP stands for “Veiled Prophet”, and the name of the fair wasn’t officially changed to Fair Saint Louis until 1992. “Veiled Prophet” is an admittedly odd name, and the history behind it is just as strange.

In 1878, grain executive and former Confederate cavalryman Charles Slayback called a meeting of local business and civic leaders. His intention was to form a secret society that would blend the pomp and ritual of a New Orleans Mardi Gras with the symbolism used by the Irish poet Thomas Moore. From Moore’s poetry, Slayback and the St. Louis elite created the myth of the Veiled Prophet of Khorassan, a mystic traveller who inexplicably decided to make St. Louis his base of operations.

The entire process was suffused with elaborate ritual: A person would be chosen by a secret board of local elites to anonymously play the role of the Veiled Prophet. The Veiled Prophet would chose a Queen of Love and Beauty from among the elite ball attendees (of course, invitation list to be kept strictly confidential as well) with whom he would dance a “Royal Quadrille” before presenting her with an expensive keepsake such as a tiara or pearls. Often these gifts were so expensive that they became family heirlooms. The ball would be accompanied by a just-as-spectacular parade and fair. In October of 1878, civic elites organized the first parade. It attracted more than 50,000 spectators.

There were at least two reasons Slayback and his peers created the Veiled Prophet Organization and staged the lavish events. One was 300 miles north. By the late 1880s, Chicago was beginning to overshadow St. Louis as transportation and manufacturing hub. St. Louis needed, in every way, including symbolically, to remind its citizens of its stature. The VP Parade recalled the antebellum St. Louis Agricultural and Mechanical Fair, a sort of trade show and harvest festival combined.

...The 1972 Veiled Prophet was unmasked in what was one of the most dramatic guerrilla protests ever organized by local civil-rights leader Percy Green. The Ball that year was held in cavernous Kiel Auditorium. Activist Gena Scott, dramatically sliding down a power cable a la Mission Impossible, unmasked the enthroned Prophet. It turned out to be the then-executive vice president of Monsanto, Tom K. Smith. Scott’s car was bombed and her house vandalized.

The unmasking in Kiel Auditorium helped highlight the embarrassing inequities that the VP Fair and Ball represented. The organization loosened up a bit, even opening its ranks to African-American members in 1979, but by the late ’70s, even the members seemed a bit embarrassed of the spectacle. Spencer quotes William Martiz, a VP member, as saying, “A lot of members in the late 70’s ‘felt uneasy with the social connotations’ and people were saying ‘get that ####### ball off the television, don’t force that on the community.’” By 1992 the name of the event was changed to Fair Saint Louis, nominally erasing the connection to its past.

The VP Fair and Ball had to change in response to social pressure, but the monopoly of power held by the people who constituted its elite ranks stayed the same. In 2000, Spencer told Riverfront Times, “one of the roles that organization plays is to keep these people on top with business contacts to put little Johnny into a corporate job, and by the 1950’s and 1960’s, all the corporate CEO’s in St. Louis had the same names as the major business leaders did in the 1880’s. If you know much about St. Louis history, when is it the corporations really started going into the Dumpster? It was under the leadership of these folks.”

Feeling the heat from industrial competitors to the North and labor unrest inside the city, the business elite of St. Louis decided in 1878 to double down on the static racial and economic power structure of the city. The Veiled Prophet Ball and Fair was a powerful symbol of that reassertion of control. But the underlying social issues continued to fester. St. Louis declined, suffering countless self-inflicted wounds, visible and invisible. Michael Brown is part of that story now. If the 1972 unmasking of the Monsanto executive unveiled the secret power structure running St. Louis, Brown’s shooting was equally revealing of the victims of the inequality institutionalized by the Veiled Prophets.
Click to expand...
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/09/fair-st-louis-and-the-veiled-prophet/379460/

 
Last edited by a moderator:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
The Mystery of St. Louis's Veiled ProphetRacial and class tensions are nothing new in the city, as the story of a parade founded by white elites in 1877 to protect their position shows.

There’s a lot that I love about St. Louis, the city I was born in: baseball, the free zoo and art museum, a rich cultural history that stretches from T.S. Eliot to Miles Davis, and, of course, all of my friends and family. But the city’s inability to deal with its history of racial inequality, always closely tied to class issues, has run parallel to the city’s cultural and economic decline, leaving it in something resembling a stupor. A case study in this long decline can be found in the emblematic history of the annual Fair Saint Louis.

Held annually every Fourth of July, usually in downtown St. Louis, Fair St. Louis is a festival that includes food, music, hot-air balloons, and fireworks. Touted as “America’s Biggest Birthday Party”, it’s basically just a fun excuse to enjoy the usually hot and humid St. Louis Fourth of Julys with friends and family. This summer, due to construction along the Mississippi riverfront, the fair was held in Forest Park, a jewel of a turn-of-the-century public park built for the 1904 World’s Fair.

Attaching Fair St. Louis to these monuments of St. Louis’ former grandeur, the Gateway Arch and Forest Park, is fun and completely in the spirit of civic celebration, but also overshadows the dark and sordid history of the fair itself. Until the early ’90s I knew Fair Saint Louis by its older name, the VP Fair. VP stands for “Veiled Prophet”, and the name of the fair wasn’t officially changed to Fair Saint Louis until 1992. “Veiled Prophet” is an admittedly odd name, and the history behind it is just as strange.

In 1878, grain executive and former Confederate cavalryman Charles Slayback called a meeting of local business and civic leaders. His intention was to form a secret society that would blend the pomp and ritual of a New Orleans Mardi Gras with the symbolism used by the Irish poet Thomas Moore. From Moore’s poetry, Slayback and the St. Louis elite created the myth of the Veiled Prophet of Khorassan, a mystic traveller who inexplicably decided to make St. Louis his base of operations.

The entire process was suffused with elaborate ritual: A person would be chosen by a secret board of local elites to anonymously play the role of the Veiled Prophet. The Veiled Prophet would chose a Queen of Love and Beauty from among the elite ball attendees (of course, invitation list to be kept strictly confidential as well) with whom he would dance a “Royal Quadrille” before presenting her with an expensive keepsake such as a tiara or pearls. Often these gifts were so expensive that they became family heirlooms. The ball would be accompanied by a just-as-spectacular parade and fair. In October of 1878, civic elites organized the first parade. It attracted more than 50,000 spectators.

There were at least two reasons Slayback and his peers created the Veiled Prophet Organization and staged the lavish events. One was 300 miles north. By the late 1880s, Chicago was beginning to overshadow St. Louis as transportation and manufacturing hub. St. Louis needed, in every way, including symbolically, to remind its citizens of its stature. The VP Parade recalled the antebellum St. Louis Agricultural and Mechanical Fair, a sort of trade show and harvest festival combined.

...The 1972 Veiled Prophet was unmasked in what was one of the most dramatic guerrilla protests ever organized by local civil-rights leader Percy Green. The Ball that year was held in cavernous Kiel Auditorium. Activist Gena Scott, dramatically sliding down a power cable a la Mission Impossible, unmasked the enthroned Prophet. It turned out to be the then-executive vice president of Monsanto, Tom K. Smith. Scott’s car was bombed and her house vandalized.

The unmasking in Kiel Auditorium helped highlight the embarrassing inequities that the VP Fair and Ball represented. The organization loosened up a bit, even opening its ranks to African-American members in 1979, but by the late ’70s, even the members seemed a bit embarrassed of the spectacle. Spencer quotes William Martiz, a VP member, as saying, “A lot of members in the late 70’s ‘felt uneasy with the social connotations’ and people were saying ‘get that ####### ball off the television, don’t force that on the community.’” By 1992 the name of the event was changed to Fair Saint Louis, nominally erasing the connection to its past.

The VP Fair and Ball had to change in response to social pressure, but the monopoly of power held by the people who constituted its elite ranks stayed the same. In 2000, Spencer told Riverfront Times, “one of the roles that organization plays is to keep these people on top with business contacts to put little Johnny into a corporate job, and by the 1950’s and 1960’s, all the corporate CEO’s in St. Louis had the same names as the major business leaders did in the 1880’s. If you know much about St. Louis history, when is it the corporations really started going into the Dumpster? It was under the leadership of these folks.”

Feeling the heat from industrial competitors to the North and labor unrest inside the city, the business elite of St. Louis decided in 1878 to double down on the static racial and economic power structure of the city. The Veiled Prophet Ball and Fair was a powerful symbol of that reassertion of control. But the underlying social issues continued to fester. St. Louis declined, suffering countless self-inflicted wounds, visible and invisible. Michael Brown is part of that story now. If the 1972 unmasking of the Monsanto executive unveiled the secret power structure running St. Louis, Brown’s shooting was equally revealing of the victims of the inequality institutionalized by the Veiled Prophets.
Click to expand...
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/09/fair-st-louis-and-the-veiled-prophet/379460/
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:lmao: What does this have to do with loser confederates?

 
St. Louis Bob said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
The Mystery of St. Louis's Veiled ProphetRacial and class tensions are nothing new in the city, as the story of a parade founded by white elites in 1877 to protect their position shows.

There’s a lot that I love about St. Louis, the city I was born in: baseball, the free zoo and art museum, a rich cultural history that stretches from T.S. Eliot to Miles Davis, and, of course, all of my friends and family. But the city’s inability to deal with its history of racial inequality, always closely tied to class issues, has run parallel to the city’s cultural and economic decline, leaving it in something resembling a stupor. A case study in this long decline can be found in the emblematic history of the annual Fair Saint Louis.

Held annually every Fourth of July, usually in downtown St. Louis, Fair St. Louis is a festival that includes food, music, hot-air balloons, and fireworks. Touted as “America’s Biggest Birthday Party”, it’s basically just a fun excuse to enjoy the usually hot and humid St. Louis Fourth of Julys with friends and family. This summer, due to construction along the Mississippi riverfront, the fair was held in Forest Park, a jewel of a turn-of-the-century public park built for the 1904 World’s Fair.

Attaching Fair St. Louis to these monuments of St. Louis’ former grandeur, the Gateway Arch and Forest Park, is fun and completely in the spirit of civic celebration, but also overshadows the dark and sordid history of the fair itself. Until the early ’90s I knew Fair Saint Louis by its older name, the VP Fair. VP stands for “Veiled Prophet”, and the name of the fair wasn’t officially changed to Fair Saint Louis until 1992. “Veiled Prophet” is an admittedly odd name, and the history behind it is just as strange.

In 1878, grain executive and former Confederate cavalryman Charles Slayback called a meeting of local business and civic leaders. His intention was to form a secret society that would blend the pomp and ritual of a New Orleans Mardi Gras with the symbolism used by the Irish poet Thomas Moore. From Moore’s poetry, Slayback and the St. Louis elite created the myth of the Veiled Prophet of Khorassan, a mystic traveller who inexplicably decided to make St. Louis his base of operations.

The entire process was suffused with elaborate ritual: A person would be chosen by a secret board of local elites to anonymously play the role of the Veiled Prophet. The Veiled Prophet would chose a Queen of Love and Beauty from among the elite ball attendees (of course, invitation list to be kept strictly confidential as well) with whom he would dance a “Royal Quadrille” before presenting her with an expensive keepsake such as a tiara or pearls. Often these gifts were so expensive that they became family heirlooms. The ball would be accompanied by a just-as-spectacular parade and fair. In October of 1878, civic elites organized the first parade. It attracted more than 50,000 spectators.

There were at least two reasons Slayback and his peers created the Veiled Prophet Organization and staged the lavish events. One was 300 miles north. By the late 1880s, Chicago was beginning to overshadow St. Louis as transportation and manufacturing hub. St. Louis needed, in every way, including symbolically, to remind its citizens of its stature. The VP Parade recalled the antebellum St. Louis Agricultural and Mechanical Fair, a sort of trade show and harvest festival combined.

...The 1972 Veiled Prophet was unmasked in what was one of the most dramatic guerrilla protests ever organized by local civil-rights leader Percy Green. The Ball that year was held in cavernous Kiel Auditorium. Activist Gena Scott, dramatically sliding down a power cable a la Mission Impossible, unmasked the enthroned Prophet. It turned out to be the then-executive vice president of Monsanto, Tom K. Smith. Scott’s car was bombed and her house vandalized.

The unmasking in Kiel Auditorium helped highlight the embarrassing inequities that the VP Fair and Ball represented. The organization loosened up a bit, even opening its ranks to African-American members in 1979, but by the late ’70s, even the members seemed a bit embarrassed of the spectacle. Spencer quotes William Martiz, a VP member, as saying, “A lot of members in the late 70’s ‘felt uneasy with the social connotations’ and people were saying ‘get that ####### ball off the television, don’t force that on the community.’” By 1992 the name of the event was changed to Fair Saint Louis, nominally erasing the connection to its past.

The VP Fair and Ball had to change in response to social pressure, but the monopoly of power held by the people who constituted its elite ranks stayed the same. In 2000, Spencer told Riverfront Times, “one of the roles that organization plays is to keep these people on top with business contacts to put little Johnny into a corporate job, and by the 1950’s and 1960’s, all the corporate CEO’s in St. Louis had the same names as the major business leaders did in the 1880’s. If you know much about St. Louis history, when is it the corporations really started going into the Dumpster? It was under the leadership of these folks.”

Feeling the heat from industrial competitors to the North and labor unrest inside the city, the business elite of St. Louis decided in 1878 to double down on the static racial and economic power structure of the city. The Veiled Prophet Ball and Fair was a powerful symbol of that reassertion of control. But the underlying social issues continued to fester. St. Louis declined, suffering countless self-inflicted wounds, visible and invisible. Michael Brown is part of that story now. If the 1972 unmasking of the Monsanto executive unveiled the secret power structure running St. Louis, Brown’s shooting was equally revealing of the victims of the inequality institutionalized by the Veiled Prophets.
Click to expand...
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/09/fair-st-louis-and-the-veiled-prophet/379460/
Click to expand...
:lmao: What does this have to do with loser confederates?
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was equally revealing of the victims of the inequality institutionalized by the Veiled Prophets
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The who, what and where of memorialization and the effects thereof.

 
:lmao: These are the same people that wouldn't allow August Busch in their golf club because they didn't like Germans. Scumbags for sure.

Enjoy your loser flag. :lmao:

 
St. Louis Bob said:
:lmao: These are the same people that wouldn't allow August Busch in their golf club because they didn't like Germans. Scumbags for sure.

Enjoy your loser flag. :lmao:
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I agree with you on the flag. I might actually agree with you on the monuments, depending on the circumstances, although you don't seem concerned with the ones near you. This is a backyard issue, including your own backyard, that's the point.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Confederate flag bad, ISIS flag good

SLIDELL, La. (MEDIA GENERAL) – Wal-Mart has apologized after a man from Louisiana posted a video to YouTube explaining how a local store refused to make a cake with a Confederate flag design but baked a cake featuring the ISIS battle flag.

Chuck Netzhammer said he tried to order a cake featuring the image of the Confederate battle flag adorned with the words “Heritage Not Hate” on Thursday, June 25, 2015. The bakery denied his request, as the store, along with several retailers over the past week have announced they are banning sales of Confederate flag merchandise in the wake of the Charleston church shooting on June 17.

Later in the week, Netzhammer ordered a cake with an image of the ISIS battle flag, which the store made.

In the YouTube video, Netzhammer shows the ISIS cake as well as the rejected form of the Confederate flag cake that appears to have been marked with the words “cannot do cake.”

A spokesman for Wal-Mart told ABC News: “An associate in a local store did not know what the design meant and made a mistake. The cake should not have been made and we apologize.”

Netzhammer’s cake controversy is the latest chapter in a sparked discussion surrounding the Confederate flag. Many in the south claim the flag is a symbol for southern heritage and those who fought bravely in the Civil War. The flag’s critics say the emblem is a symbol for hatred and bigotry because one of the main motivations for the south’s secession was to keep slavery legal. After the Civil War, the Confederate battle flag emblem was adopted by several white supremacist groups, including the Ku Klux Klan.
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moleculo said:
Heritage protest scheduled for July.
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The Ku Klux Klan will hold a rally at the South Carolina State House next month, state officials confirmed Monday.

Any group can request to hold a rally as long as the State House grounds are available, said Brian Gaines, a spokesman for the S.C. Budget and Control Board.

The Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan requested the rally from 3-5 p.m. on July 18, Gaines said.

Calling itself the “Largest Klan in America,” the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan are based in Pelham, N.C., according to its website.

The website’s front page includes a message opposing efforts to ban the Confederate flag, which have taken off in the days since nine African-American churchgoers were shot and killed on June 17 in Charleston in what authorities have called a hate crime.

“If you can’t tell, they are trying to wipe us out of the history books,” the message reads. “Tell this Marxist government they better not dishonor out ancestors graves.”
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:lmao:
 
Christo said:
St. Louis Bob said:
My Great Great Grandfather was an aid to General Grant. He captured 4 losers trying to ambush their camp with an empty rifle. True story.
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Pics or it didn't happen
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I'll have to ask my Aunt, she's the one that took the time to do all of the genealogy.

Fennis said:
St. Louis Bob said:
My Great Great Grandfather was an aid to General Grant. He captured 4 losers trying to ambush their camp with an empty rifle. True story.
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is he buried in Grants tomb?

https://simpsonsscreenshots.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/smitherscoffin.png
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Oh I have a special reward for you. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 
AP reporting 2/3rds majority in both House and Senate to remove the flag in Charleston. I have a feeling that when the vote takes place on July 6 it's actually going to be close to unanimous. Suddenly nobody wants to be on the wrong side of this issue.

 
Rayderr said:
moleculo said:
Heritage protest scheduled for July.
Click to expand...
The "Heritage not Hate" crowd really needs to have a counter-protest to this. Reclaim the flag to mean "Southern Pride" (read: Proud to be a redneck/hillbilly) instead of white supremacy.
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It will be interesting to see if the SCV decides to not respond at all, or shows up to counter.Can we all agree that Park service removes Confederate flags from Fort Sumter is going too far?

If there is one place in this nation that the historically accurate flags should fly, it is the one monument specifically associated with the war.

They don't even fly a battle flag.

 
timschochet said:
AP reporting 2/3rds majority in both House and Senate to remove the flag in Charleston Columbia. I have a feeling that when the vote takes place on July 6 it's actually going to be close to unanimous. Suddenly nobody wants to be on the wrong side of this issue.
Click to expand...
fixed
 
Mjolnirs said:
Rayderr said:
moleculo said:
Heritage protest scheduled for July.
Click to expand...
The "Heritage not Hate" crowd really needs to have a counter-protest to this. Reclaim the flag to mean "Southern Pride" (read: Proud to be a redneck/hillbilly) instead of white supremacy.
Click to expand...
It will be interesting to see if the SCV decides to not respond at all, or shows up to counter. Can we all agree that Park service removes Confederate flags from Fort Sumter is going too far?If there is one place in this nation that the historically accurate flags should fly, it is the one monument specifically associated with the war.They don't even fly a battle flag.
Click to expand...
Leave it up so that everybody knows who to blame for 600,000 deaths

 
Mjolnirs said:
Rayderr said:
moleculo said:
Heritage protest scheduled for July.
Click to expand...
The "Heritage not Hate" crowd really needs to have a counter-protest to this. Reclaim the flag to mean "Southern Pride" (read: Proud to be a redneck/hillbilly) instead of white supremacy.
Click to expand...
It will be interesting to see if the SCV decides to not respond at all, or shows up to counter.Can we all agree that Park service removes Confederate flags from Fort Sumter is going too far?

If there is one place in this nation that the historically accurate flags should fly, it is the one monument specifically associated with the war.

They don't even fly a battle flag.
Click to expand...
I would expect them to fly the Fort Sumter flag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sumter_Flag#/media/File:Fort_Sumter_storm_flag_1861.jpg

 
Officer Pete Malloy said:
timschochet said:
AP reporting 2/3rds majority in both House and Senate to remove the flag in Charleston. I have a feeling that when the vote takes place on July 6 it's actually going to be close to unanimous. Suddenly nobody wants to be on the wrong side of this issue.
Click to expand...
It is amazing how fast things are changing.
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It's as if old people are dying.

Lots of non-specific butthurt on my MS facebook feed aside, the times they are a changin'.

 
timschochet said:
AP reporting 2/3rds majority in both House and Senate to remove the flag in Charleston Columbia. I have a feeling that when the vote takes place on July 6 it's actually going to be close to unanimous. Suddenly nobody wants to be on the wrong side of this issue.
Click to expand...
I'd like to know why it took 1/2 (<2/3rds) in 2000 but 2/3rds now.

 
Fennis said:
Mjolnirs said:
Rayderr said:
moleculo said:
Heritage protest scheduled for July.
Click to expand...
The "Heritage not Hate" crowd really needs to have a counter-protest to this. Reclaim the flag to mean "Southern Pride" (read: Proud to be a redneck/hillbilly) instead of white supremacy.
Click to expand...
It will be interesting to see if the SCV decides to not respond at all, or shows up to counter.Can we all agree that Park service removes Confederate flags from Fort Sumter is going too far?

If there is one place in this nation that the historically accurate flags should fly, it is the one monument specifically associated with the war.

They don't even fly a battle flag.
Click to expand...
I would expect them to fly the Fort Sumter flag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sumter_Flag#/media/File:Fort_Sumter_storm_flag_1861.jpg
Click to expand...
They do. Current U.S. Flag, then 5 historical flags: 1861 U.S. Flag, S.C. Flag, First National C.S.A. Flag, Second National C.S.A. Flag, 1865 U.S. Flag.

 
Mister CIA said:
Officer Pete Malloy said:
timschochet said:
AP reporting 2/3rds majority in both House and Senate to remove the flag in Charleston. I have a feeling that when the vote takes place on July 6 it's actually going to be close to unanimous. Suddenly nobody wants to be on the wrong side of this issue.
Click to expand...
It is amazing how fast things are changing.
Click to expand...
It's as if old people are dying.Lots of non-specific butthurt on my MS facebook feed aside, the times they are a changin'.
Click to expand...
:bye:

 
timschochet said:
AP reporting 2/3rds majority in both House and Senate to remove the flag in Charleston. I have a feeling that when the vote takes place on July 6 it's actually going to be close to unanimous. Suddenly nobody wants to be on the wrong side of this issue.
Click to expand...
Yeah suddenly. Open support for racism was perfectly fine a month ago on the Hill.

 
Mike Rowe on the subject:

The Confederate Battle Flag makes me feel angry. It reminds me of The KKK. I hate The KKK. Consequently, the sight of that flag makes me want to travel back in time, long before the Klan came together, find the original Grand Wizard, and beat him to death with a golf club.

Swastikas also make me angry. They remind me of Nazis. I really hate Nazis. Consequently, whenever I see a swastika, I want to travel back in time, find Hitler long before he came to power, and beat him to death with a golf club too.

I know it’s irrational to allow talismans of evil to fill me with fantasies of time-traveling violence, but I’m a human being. I have no control over my feelings, or what triggers them. Fortunately though, I also have a brain. It’s a modest brain, but it functions in a way that allows me to acknowledge my feelings without being guided by them. Thanks to my brain, I came to realize that my feelings - while endlessly important to me - are surprisingly unpersuasive to everyone else. Consequently, while I’d love to tell you more about how I feel, I’m going to try instead to tell you what I think.

I think we need to be very careful about congratulating ourselves too enthusiastically for removing a piece of cloth from the public square - even if it’s removal is long overdue. I also think we need to stop calling people racist, just because they see the flag as something other than a symbol of hate. This is what happens when we put a premium on our feelings. We assume everyone who disagrees with us is not merely wrong, but dangerous.

I know many good Southerners who abhor racism, but view this flag as an important connection to their ancestors - the vast majority of whom never owned slaves. This doesn’t mean the flag should be allowed to fly on public property - not for a minute. But it’s a mistake in my view, to equate the removal of a symbol, with the removal of the evil it’s come to symbolize. And that’s exactly what a lot of people are doing. We’re conflating cause and effect.

For instance, we look at that picture of Dylan Roof, and we see a bigot who appears to have fallen off the cover of American Racist Quarterly. He’s got the whole package - vapid stare, dopey haircut, fancy apartheid patches, and of course, the Confederate Battle Flag. We’re repulsed, and yet, we also feel relief, because now we understand exactly what he is - he’s a racist, plain and simple. Now, all we have to do is eliminate the hatred that drove him to murder.

Sadly, we have no idea how to do that. Nor can we go back in time to introduce his head to a golf club, and save us all the agony of his cowardly act. So what do we do? We target his accessories. We focus on the accoutrements of bigotry, and assign them magical powers.

By all means - lets take the flag down. It’s long past time. But let’s not fool ourselves. Racism and terrorism and all the other hate-filled "-isms" that plague the species will never be eliminated by banning flags, burning books, limiting speech, or outlawing white sheets and pointy little hats. When Dylan Roof walked into The First Emanuel Church and killed nine black Americans, he wasn’t waving his rebel flag or screaming the N-word. He didn’t look like a racist. He didn’t act like a racist. Until he started killing people.

That's the problem with people in white sheets and pointy hats. They don’t always dress the part, or carry the proper flag.
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Rayderr said:
Mike Rowe on the subject:

I think we need to be very careful about congratulating ourselves too enthusiastically for removing a piece of cloth from the public square - even if it’s removal is long overdue. I also think we need to stop calling people racist, just because they see the flag as something other than a symbol of hate. This is what happens when we put a premium on our feelings. We assume everyone who disagrees with us is not merely wrong, but dangerous.
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Wise words that will fall on deaf ears to most posters here.

 
By my understanding, that flag has changed meanings several times. It was originally meant to draw a distinction between Old Glory - the ***official*** Confederate flag was too similar to the US flag during battle, the Southern Cross was distinctly different. So, it's first meaning was purely utilitarian.

After the Civil War, the former confederate soldiers used the flags in various ceremonies - funerals, commemorations, and the like. Even then, the flag was never adopted by any veterans groups. So, it's second meaning was ceremonial and for remembering fallen comrades.

As far as I can tell, the flag was not flown for a while outside of ceremonial use. It wasn't used by the Red Shirts, the KKK, etc. It appears to be that the flag was resurrected by the Dixiecrats in 1948. This is where the flag became prominent and it's usage became ugly. The dixiecrats were a segregationist party, led by Strom Thurmond, dedicated to promoting Jim Crow laws. The flags third meaning was one of white supremacy. We should note that it was only 13 years after the Dixiecrat movement that civil rights legislation was passed and the Southern Cross was hung over the SC State House (Strom Thurmands home state).

Somewhere along the way, the Lost Cause narrative came to pass. This is where the "States Rights" as the cause of the war was promoted. I believe the Lost Cause meme is what led to the "heritage" argument. Generations of students have been taught that the war was about protecting the southern way of life. When people make the "heritage not hate" claim, they are falling back on decades of dogma. It's not that these folks are hateful or fly the flag to support white supremacy, they really believe in the tenant of the Lost Cause. So the flag does have a fourth meaning - a celebration of southern culture, States Rights, and all of that.

I think what is happening now is the a re-examinination of the Lost Cause narrative. There are a couple reasons for this: (1) there have been a lot of migration into the South - lots of folks here were not raised with a Lost Cause mythology, and reject it outright. (2) the millenials are a civic-minded bunch,and culturally liberal. They want nothing to do with anything associated with white supremacy, Lost Cause and everything.

 
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I'm not sure "dogma" is the correct term to be using, but the summary here is pretty good. It wasn't a "belief" that the flag represented those things. The flag represented those things (see my anecdotal example of the old dude living beside me as an example). If this has done nothing, it's educated people about the flag's history beyond the hijacking of exteremists. So, I guess that's good?

 
General Malaise said:
moleculo said:
Heritage protest scheduled for July.
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The Ku Klux Klan will hold a rally at the South Carolina State House next month, state officials confirmed Monday.

Any group can request to hold a rally as long as the State House grounds are available, said Brian Gaines, a spokesman for the S.C. Budget and Control Board.

The Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan requested the rally from 3-5 p.m. on July 18, Gaines said.

Calling itself the “Largest Klan in America,” the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan are based in Pelham, N.C., according to its website.

The website’s front page includes a message opposing efforts to ban the Confederate flag, which have taken off in the days since nine African-American churchgoers were shot and killed on June 17 in Charleston in what authorities have called a hate crime.

“If you can’t tell, they are trying to wipe us out of the history books,” the message reads. “Tell this Marxist government they better not dishonor out ancestors graves.”
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:lmao:
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:lmao:

Thank you KKK for proving that the critics are, in fact, correct about the meaning of the Confederate flag.

 
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