What happened in Seattle? (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

I always thought of Seattle as the happiest family in sports. Carroll was the super cool Dad  / coach beloved by all the cool but rowdy kids / players.

Now they have Earl Thomas on the cart yesterday.

Is it me or did this change really fast? What's your take?

 

[zed2283]

They had to pay Russell Wilson and it all fell apart.  The NFL has a strange dynamic now.  The mantra is that you can't win without a franchise QB, but I wonder if you can win WITH a franchise QB?

 

[Gottabesweet]

It grew stale, tried  being New England lite, with bringing in and letting go all sorts of vets, eventually turned to crap because unlike NE, the Seahawks let the players voice their opinions all the time. It's like when WCW let all the old wrestlers have creative control and then they got bought out.  That's the best analogy I can give Monday morning. Wrestling.

 

[shadyridr]

They had to pay Russell Wilson and it all fell apart.  The NFL has a strange dynamic now.  The mantra is that you can't win without a franchise QB, but I wonder if you can win WITH a franchise QB?

Pretty much this. Guys got old and they had to pay their QB. I don't really disagree with any of the moves they made. Should they have paid aging Legion of Boom players?

 

[Da Guru]

The NFL cycle.  Core was young, tough, talented and provided cheap labor that gave team ability to add needed parts, had a franchise QB who did not make much.  Jealousy over contracts seeps in, QB gets huge contract that alters cap space, core is aging and wants paid more.  Team falls apart.

 

[jwb]

There was just a story about this in SI. 

Essentially many players felt Russel Wilson was/is given preferential treatment (with even some allusions that ill-fated super bowl pass play was called to ensure RW got the MVP). 

 

[msudaisy26]

I disagree with the they had to pay the qb. The Patriots are the exception to the rule most teams have a 3 to 6 year window of contending for a super bowl. 

Not all teams fall off map, but Seattle made a ton of bad draft choices and trades. They are still looking for a running back, they traded a lot to get Jimmy Graham and he was only a red zone threat, they paid a ton for Harvin. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Seahawks_draft_history here is a link to their draft history. Go back to 2013 and look at their drafts. You can't draft that bad and expect to stay relevant in the NFL no matterhow good your qb is. The Packers, Falcons, Steelers, Panthers, Saints, and Ravens have all given their qbs huge deals and still stayed competitive. I don't have the time, but I would bet if you look at their drafts for the last 5ish years they all have drafted way better than the Seahawks and haven't made as poor of trades as the Graham and Harvin deals. 

 

[JohnnyU]

Never liked Seattle and their whole persona, especially Russell Wilson and their coach.  I look forward to their failure.   What happened with Thomas last night, besides the injury?

 

[davearm]

There was just a story about this in SI. 

Essentially many players felt Russel Wilson was/is given preferential treatment (with even some allusions that ill-fated super bowl pass play was called to ensure RW got the MVP). 

@Joe Bryant, the answers to your questions are in last week's issue of SI.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/09/07/seattle-seahawks-dismantling-rift-russell-wilson-pete-carroll

 

[lod001]

Carroll is turning back into Pete Carroll of the NYJ years, the D has fallen apart and now the pressure is on Russell Wilson to outscore other teams.

 

[apalmer]

Thomas only did physically what Bell has been figuratively doing to the Steelers.  Everybody is happy until they realize that the cap isn't big enough to pay everyone what they think they're worth. Then someone gets unhappy real fast and the dominos start to fall.

 

[Chaka]

Earl Thomas hired a poor financial planner.

 

[DocHolliday]

Never liked Seattle and their whole persona, especially Russell Wilson and their coach.  I look forward to their failure.   What happened with Thomas last night, besides the injury?

The Seahawks have always annoyed me.  Sometimes, it is nice to watch the cockiness get crushed out of a team. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I thought this was about how Mike Davis got a surprise start and turned in RB1 numbers and absolutely no one saw it coming.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Never liked Seattle and their whole persona, especially Russell Wilson and their coach.  I look forward to their failure.   What happened with Thomas last night, besides the injury?

Just flipped the bird to the Seattle sideline as he was carted off.

 

[menobrown]

His message got stale. Have heard he literally keeps telling the same stories over and over. Combine that with old core getting older but at same time more expensive.

This leads needs team to take an out with the old and in with the new approach but one of the issues, and this is not made easy by often picking in back half of round one, but they've whiffed wildly on some picks.

 

[ratbast]

Economics. And OLine ignorance.

 

[zed2283]

The Packers, Falcons, Steelers, Panthers, Saints, and Ravens have all given their qbs huge deals and still stayed competitive.

Which of those teams has won a Super Bowl after giving their QBs huge deals?

 

[Bossman]

I disagree with the they had to pay the qb. The Patriots are the exception to the rule most teams have a 3 to 6 year window of contending for a super bowl. 

Not all teams fall off map, but Seattle made a ton of bad draft choices and trades. They are still looking for a running back, they traded a lot to get Jimmy Graham and he was only a red zone threat, they paid a ton for Harvin. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Seahawks_draft_history here is a link to their draft history. Go back to 2013 and look at their drafts. You can't draft that bad and expect to stay relevant in the NFL no matter who good your qb is. The Packers, Falcons, Steelers, Panthers, Saints, and Ravens have all given their qbs huge deals and still stayed competitive. I don't have the time, but I would bet if you look at their drafts for the last 5ish years they all have drafted way better than the Seahawks and haven't made as poor of trades as the Graham and Harvin deals. 

Agreed. Poor drafting can cripple any team. Tough when your last to draft for several years. NE's drafts don't look any better than SEA's.

Combine that with players that get major deals (QB / Wilson in this case) and now you're really in a bind since you can't afford to keep the few studs that you've grown in house... or bring in vet studs as free agents.

The teams with the most talent on both sides of the ball are often the teams that have been drafting near the top of the draft ...and have QB's on rookie deals (or journeymen playing for cheap).

Right now; JAX / TEN / LAR / KC / PHI / HOU / DEN / CHI / CLE

Teams handicapped by QB salaries: DET / GB / BAL / NOS / LAC / IND / NYG / PIT / OAK

I'm sure examples can be made for all of these teams not able to retain players due to salary cap limits. OAK / Mack the latest. PIT is about to lose Bell.

GB loses stud WR's yet continues to succeed by drafting well. 

For these reasons, I'm guessing MIN / MIA has about a 2 year window before they implode ala SEA.

They will be unable to retain their studs as contracts expire ... and will be drafting near the end of each round for the next couple of seasons.

 Exceptions to the rule would be CAR and NE. CAR still manages to have elite players around the QB ... credit quality drafting.

NE is unique in the fact that Brady doesn't demand an elite salary. He's content with his salary being in the middle of the road for vet QB's and he understands that money not taken will be used to put a better team around him. Cousins not so much. 

Zed said it well; "can you win WITH a franchise QB?" ... yes, if he's still on his rookie deal ala PHI last year. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

The franchise coddled Wilson to the detriment of the rest of the team.   Carroll not running the ball with Lynch in the SB vs the Patriots embodied that dynamic perfectly. If Lynch gets that td--he most likely gets Super Bowl mvp and somewhat becomes the face of the franchise at that time. Instead, Carroll gets cute and tries to make Wilson the hero and it costed them a Super Bowl.  You mix that resentment with economic issues--and the thing fell apart.  

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Never liked Seattle and their whole persona, especially Russell Wilson and their coach.  I look forward to their failure.   

+1

 

[Alex P Keaton]

I always thought of Seattle as the happiest family in sports. Carroll was the super cool Dad  / coach beloved by all the cool but rowdy kids / players.

Now they have Earl Thomas on the cart yesterday.

Is it me or did this change really fast? What's your take?

Golden Tate happened with Wilson's wife.  That was probably the beginning of the end - because Wilson had zero street cred with his teammates from that moment on. He didn't put Tate in the hospital after that........imagine that happens with a guy like Bryan Cox.  Tate would have been dead.

Edit to add:  if this somehow breaks the new rules of the board, feel free to delete.  IMO though this was what set up the whole dynamic with the team vs Carroll/Wilson.  Carroll had to step in and get rid of Tate because Wilson couldn't take care of business himself.

 

[DocHolliday]

The franchise coddled Wilson to the detriment of the rest of the team.   Carroll not running the ball with Lynch in the SB vs the Patriots embodied that dynamic perfectly. If Lynch gets that td--he most likely gets Super Bowl mvp and somewhat becomes the face of the franchise at that time. Instead, Carroll gets cute and tries to make Wilson the hero and it costed them a Super Bowl.  You mix that resentment with economic issues--and the thing fell apart.  

The whole Carroll not wanting Lynch to the get the TD may be true but why not just have Wilson run it in?  Not using Lynch is dumb enough but throwing the ball in that situation is extremely stupid. 

 

[Elevencents]

The Seahawks have always annoyed me.  Sometimes, it is nice to watch the cockiness get crushed out of a team. 

Haha I hate to say it but I’m 100% in agreement. I have always rooted against them. Could not stand Thomas and Sherman and while I was not happy to see Thomas get hurt I certainly wasn’t upset. 

 

[travdogg]

Which of those teams has won a Super Bowl after giving their QBs huge deals?

I hate that logic so much. As if every team that doesn't win the Super Bowl was a failure that season. 

Golden Tate happened with Wilson's wife.  That was probably the beginning of the end - because Wilson had zero street cred with his teammates from that moment on. He didn't put Tate in the hospital after that........imagine that happens with a guy like Bryan Cox.  Tate would have been dead.

What? Never heard this story.

 

[Rhythmdoctor]

Golden Tate happened with Wilson's wife.  That was probably the beginning of the end - because Wilson had zero street cred with his teammates from that moment on. He didn't put Tate in the hospital after that........imagine that happens with a guy like Bryan Cox.  Tate would have been dead.

More deetz needed!

 

[Foosball God]

The difference between the Pats and Seattle is that the Pats don't wait until a player is ready to get paid, they get rid of them before that.  Seattle tried to hold on too long.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

More deetz needed!

Tate supposedly had relations with Wilson's (now) ex-wife.  That's why they got rid of Tate.

 

[mcintyre1]

I also remember that Tate rumor. No idea if it was completely unfounded or what.

 

[JohnnyU]

I hate that logic so much. As if every team that doesn't win the Super Bowl was a failure that season. 

What? Never heard this story.

True story

 

[cloppbeast]

Seattle drafted really well for a few years thus payed players a fraction of their worth. They could only keep a handful beyond their rookie deals. As far as I know, they haven't drafted as well to replace the ones they couldn't afford.

 

[cloppbeast]

The difference between the Pats and Seattle is that the Pats don't wait until a player is ready to get paid, they get rid of them before that.  Seattle tried to hold on too long.

Another difference is coaching.

 

[Rhythmdoctor]

Tate supposedly had relations with Wilson's (now) ex-wife.  That's why they got rid of Tate.

Interesting. I had not heard that.

 

[msudaisy26]

Which of those teams has won a Super Bowl after giving their QBs huge deals?

They have been there, the Broncos won after giving Peyton a big deal. There is only 1 champ a year, but that doesn't mean they can't have a good season because they didn't win it. 

 

[TheDirtyWord]

Feels like that franchise was built from the ground up with guys like Sherman, Thomas, Kam, Wagner...Marshawn on offense. Wilson was seen as a good QB but not essential to their winning a SB.  And the Butler INT served as a flashpoint to the change in philosophy and loyalty that occurred in the building.

 

[Doug B]

[Seattle] traded a lot to get Jimmy Graham and he was only a red zone threat ...

Funny thing about this: had Graham gotten past the contract stuff and stayed in New Orleans, he'd have continued putting up 80 catch/1,000 yard seasons. He was a lot more than a red zone for the Saints  

 

[msudaisy26]

Funny thing about this: had Graham gotten past the contract stuff and stayed in New Orleans, he'd have continued putting up 80 catch/1,000 yard seasons. He was a lot more than a red zone for the Saints  

You are welcome to think that, but I disagree. He got his deal from the Saints and then they traded him. 

I think the Saints knew he wasn't the same and decided to trade him a year early rather than a year late. Graham might have put up another 80 and 1000 with the Saints, but that would have been his last. His last year with the Saints he did 80 and 800. 

 

[identikit]

Funny thing about this: had Graham gotten past the contract stuff and stayed in New Orleans, he'd have continued putting up 80 catch/1,000 yard seasons. He was a lot more than a red zone for the Saints  

He's not the same player he was physically.

So somewhat doubtful for me.

 

[doeseatplace]

I disagree with the they had to pay the qb. The Patriots are the exception to the rule most teams have a 3 to 6 year window of contending for a super bowl. 

Not all teams fall off map, but Seattle made a ton of bad draft choices and trades. They are still looking for a running back, they traded a lot to get Jimmy Graham and he was only a red zone threat, they paid a ton for Harvin. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Seahawks_draft_history here is a link to their draft history. Go back to 2013 and look at their drafts. You can't draft that bad and expect to stay relevant in the NFL no matter who good your qb is. The Packers, Falcons, Steelers, Panthers, Saints, and Ravens have all given their qbs huge deals and still stayed competitive. I don't have the time, but I would bet if you look at their drafts for the last 5ish years they all have drafted way better than the Seahawks and haven't made as poor of trades as the Graham and Harvin deals. 

This is a great post and exactly right. A rudimentary analysis of 2013-2017 draft classes using Pro Football Reference's Approximate Value (AV) has the Hawks dead last over that time frame.

From 2013-17, the Panthers and Jaguars had the best AV per draft choice, at 10.07 and 10.00 respectively.

The Seahawks averaged 4.20 AV per selection, behind SF (5.06), Denver (5.21) and Cleveland (5.32).  So not even close to being second worst.

Compare that to the 2008-2012 drafts, where the Seahawks were far and away the best, averaging 24.60 per selection, miles ahead of the second-place Packers (22.37)

 

[Ilov80s]

Pretty much this. Guys got old and they had to pay their QB. I don't really disagree with any of the moves they made. Should they have paid aging Legion of Boom players?

Except the part where they traded away all their early picks, neglected pass catchers and offensive linemen year after year. Since 2013, the Seahawks have had 2 first round picks. They used them on 2 of the lowest value positions: guard and RB. 

 

[Doug B]

Funny thing about this: had Graham gotten past the contract stuff and stayed in New Orleans, he'd have continued putting up 80 catch/1,000 yard seasons. He was a lot more than a red zone for the Saints  

He's not the same player he was physically.

So somewhat doubtful for me.

Yeah, but the physical drop-off came later. I know he was hurt in Seattle during the 2015 season.

Let me amend slightly: if Graham had stayed in New Orleans and remained healthy, his 2011-2014 role as a mismatch-maker and chain-mover in the Saints' offense wouldn't have changed in 2015, 2016, etc.

One thing I should've considered, though, is that Graham was on old rookie (25?). So maybe I'm not accounting for how really used up he was physically by the end of 2014.

 

[Tejas]

The presumed love affair ended when they gave away the Super Bowl to the Pats. Lynch should have been MVP of that game, but Carroll was fixated on making Wilson the leader by all costs. The team, mainly defensive players started to take sides right after the game. They lost trust in Carroll, and Wilson for not checking out of that horrible call, ultimately costing them another championship and a dynasty. 

 

[JuniorGong]

Carroll lost the team when they gifted the SB to the Pats by calling a pass, simple as that 

 

[Ilov80s]

I disagree with the they had to pay the qb. The Patriots are the exception to the rule most teams have a 3 to 6 year window of contending for a super bowl. 

Not all teams fall off map, but Seattle made a ton of bad draft choices and trades. They are still looking for a running back, they traded a lot to get Jimmy Graham and he was only a red zone threat, they paid a ton for Harvin. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Seahawks_draft_history here is a link to their draft history. Go back to 2013 and look at their drafts. You can't draft that bad and expect to stay relevant in the NFL no matter who good your qb is. The Packers, Falcons, Steelers, Panthers, Saints, and Ravens have all given their qbs huge deals and still stayed competitive. I don't have the time, but I would bet if you look at their drafts for the last 5ish years they all have drafted way better than the Seahawks and haven't made as poor of trades as the Graham and Harvin deals. 

Also, Tom Brady doesn't have a big deal. The total value of his contract is 18th among NFL QBs. 

 

[Interseptopus]

They paid Wilson. I distinctly remember this...

And yes... Wilson's contract will hurt Seattle. It's very back loaded. He counted 14 million against the cap this year, and the next two seasons will be 23 and 25 million in cap space.... if that doesn't hurt a team I don't know what salary will. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Also there has been talk about Carroll treating Wilson different than other players and he lost the locker room over that. Also I have heard talk about a lot of the coaches hating Wilson because he freelances too much and doesn't just run the plays. Plus I am sure many of those veterans felt since the organization was about team and family and making it a welcome working environment that it also meant the veterans would be taken care of. The vets on the team now feel like they weren't taken care of and the whole family atmopshere was BS. 

 

[Synthesizer]

Do Seahawks get hurt more often than other teams?  Seems like every lead RB gets hurt within a few games.  Same with the other positions too.  Does Carroll coach them in a way that makes them more likely to get hurt?  I would be curious if there is some data for this.

 

[Henry Ford]

Pete Carroll was a great, beloved guy because the media fell all over him at USC.  Because Carroll allowed the media unfettered access to the program.  

This is the same guy who had a player fake suicide at practice to play a prank on the team and reporters and when the NCAA was set to impose sanctions on his program he bolted for the NFL.  

Carroll, like most "super cool dads" is great to have around until you need an actual dad.  He doesn't strike me as a guy who takes much responsibility for the "dad" role and focuses more on the "super cool buddy" role.  That goes sour eventually when you've got the same people for more than 5 years.

Full disclosure: UCLA alumnus.

 

[lod001]

The presumed love affair ended when they gave away the Super Bowl to the Pats. Lynch should have been MVP of that game, but Carroll was fixated on making Wilson the leader by all costs. The team, mainly defensive players started to take sides right after the game. They lost trust in Carroll, and Wilson for not checking out of that horrible call, ultimately costing them another championship and a dynasty. 

Still the dumbest call in SB history.

 

[lod001]

Also, Tom Brady doesn't have a big deal. The total value of his contract is 18th among NFL QBs. 

Brady is married to $. He doesn't collect $, he collects SB trophies. They are an anomaly. However, if Wentz ignores his agents greed, he could take less because he's not a greedy dude.