What happened with Simms and Rattay (1 Viewer)

[David Yudkin]

Here's the explanation for the Simms and Rattay situation from early this week . . .

Both guys were invited for a tryout the Fri/Sat BEFORE Brady got hurt. The intent was to add another QB to learn the system and potentially be brought in for QB depth to see if that guy could learn the system to be a potential backup weeks or months later. Again, the premise was that Brady was healthy and there was no rush to evaluate a new free agent and they could take their time in him learning the system. Also, whoever they tried out, if they wanted him, would not have received a guaranteed contract by not being on the opening day roster, so they could release him for very little risk/money.

Once Brady got hurt, that plan went by the way side. To instill confidence in Cassel, the team elected not to start a QB controversy by trying out anyone else and they truly are prepared to go with Cassel, Gutierrez, and O'Connell. They have not auditioned anyone else and the Pats feel their best options are those three guys. Apparently they feel that they won't have time to bring in a subpar option and have him learn the system. Basically no one else = vote of confidence in Cassel.

We'll see what happens should Cassel and the others bomb, but for now there does not seem to be anyone close to signing or even trying out.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Thanks DY. Anything to quash that Culpepper talk.

 

[Texican]

Here's the explanation for the Simms and Rattay situation from early this week . . .

Both guys were invited for a tryout the Fri/Sat BEFORE Brady got hurt. The intent was to add another QB to learn the system and potentially be brought in for QB depth to see if that guy could learn the system to be a potential backup weeks or months later. Again, the premise was that Brady was healthy and there was no rush to evaluate a new free agent and they could take their time in him learning the system. Also, whoever they tried out, if they wanted him, would not have received a guaranteed contract by not being on the opening day roster, so they could release him for very little risk/money.

Once Brady got hurt, that plan went by the way side. To instill confidence in Cassel, the team elected not to start a QB controversy by trying out anyone else and they truly are prepared to go with Cassel, Gutierrez, and O'Connell. They have not auditioned anyone else and the Pats feel their best options are those three guys. Apparently they feel that they won't have time to bring in a subpar option and have him learn the system. Basically no one else = vote of confidence in Cassel.

We'll see what happens should Cassel and the others bomb, but for now there does not seem to be anyone close to signing or even trying out.

Would this hint that they were not overly confident on Cassel longterm? Is Cassel definitely the best of these 3 now?

 

[David Yudkin]

Would this hint that they were not overly confident on Cassel longterm? Is Cassel definitely the best of these 3 now?

This is Cassel's team now (for better or for worse).I would guess that they give him a month and if he is horrible they will move on to one of the other two.There was a discussion last night on TV that suggested that NE may come out and run the same exact offense as Brady and try to replicate the shock and awe offense from early last year, just to show the league that they can be productive with Cassel and to fear the vaunted Pats offense.I personally don't see that happening at all, as I think they will give him baby steps first and add in more high octane plays ast he season progresses.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Would this hint that they were not overly confident on Cassel longterm? Is Cassel definitely the best of these 3 now?

This is Cassel's team now (for better or for worse).I would guess that they give him a month and if he is horrible they will move on to one of the other two.There was a discussion last night on TV that suggested that NE may come out and run the same exact offense as Brady and try to replicate the shock and awe offense from early last year, just to show the league that they can be productive with Cassel and to fear the vaunted Pats offense.I personally don't see that happening at all, as I think they will give him baby steps first and add in more high octane plays ast he season progresses.

Makes sense at the very least in Week 2 since they may see some opportunites to get Brett to be "bad Favre" from watching the Dolphins tape.

 

[Jambi]

I expect big things from Matt Cassel. Top 10 QB...maybe top 5.

 

[GregR_2]

Would you say O'Connell is the true backup over Gutierez? I know he made the roster when Gutierez didn't, but was that because they would put O'Connel in a regular season game ahead of Gutierez, or because they wanted to keep both and figured Gutierez was the guy most likely to make it through waivers to the practice squad, allowing them to keep both?

 

[David Yudkin]

Would you say O'Connell is the true backup over Gutierez? I know he made the roster when Gutierez didn't, but was that because they would put O'Connel in a regular season game ahead of Gutierez, or because they wanted to keep both and figured Gutierez was the guy most likely to make it through waivers to the practice squad, allowing them to keep both?

O'Connell will probably be the backup later in the year, but if Cassel got hurt in the near future we'd probably see Gutierrez starting the next game.

 

[GregR_2]

Would you say O'Connell is the true backup over Gutierez? I know he made the roster when Gutierez didn't, but was that because they would put O'Connel in a regular season game ahead of Gutierez, or because they wanted to keep both and figured Gutierez was the guy most likely to make it through waivers to the practice squad, allowing them to keep both?

O'Connell will probably be the backup later in the year, but if Cassel got hurt in the near future we'd probably see Gutierrez starting the next game.

Thanks David.

 

[CrossEyed]

I expect big things from Matt Cassel. Top 10 QB...maybe top 5.

Stranger things have happened, but this would surprise me.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I expect big things from Matt Cassel. Top 10 QB...maybe top 5.

I expect we will all realize very shortly that Belichick is no coaching mastermind without Brady. But if he doesn't miss a beat with Cassel at the helm, well then maybe he is the greatest coach that ever lived.

 

[Captain Hook]

while Cassel hasn't started a game since high school, look at the quarterbacks he has been #2 for:

Carson Palmer

Matt Leinart - both of whom were Giants in college; and then

Tom Brady

Plus he has been in the system for several years and knows the playbook 100% - he is a very smart kid

That said any talk of Top 10 is very wishful thinking

 

[GregR_2]

while Cassel hasn't started a game since high school, look at the quarterbacks he has been #2 for:Carson PalmerMatt Leinart - both of whom were Giants in college; and thenTom BradyPlus he has been in the system for several years and knows the playbook 100% - he is a very smart kidThat said any talk of Top 10 is very wishful thinking

He also looked like crap in the preseason.

 

[Jambi]

while Cassel hasn't started a game since high school, look at the quarterbacks he has been #2 for:Carson PalmerMatt Leinart - both of whom were Giants in college; and thenTom BradyPlus he has been in the system for several years and knows the playbook 100% - he is a very smart kidThat said any talk of Top 10 is very wishful thinking

I'm neither a Pats homer nor a Cassel owner :sherg:

 

[NoFBinLA]

Great work DY.

 

[Sweet Love]

while Cassel hasn't started a game since high school, look at the quarterbacks he has been #2 for:Carson PalmerMatt Leinart - both of whom were Giants in college; and thenTom BradyPlus he has been in the system for several years and knows the playbook 100% - he is a very smart kidThat said any talk of Top 10 is very wishful thinking

Kind of a side bar, but if Cassell is successful and has a career beyond the next few years due to his play, I wonder how many years he added to his career based on the fact he has taken very few hits the last 9 years? I always thought (and still think) we will one day see an "incubator athlete" break into the major sports as someone who did not compete in games in for many years, yet practiced all the time...think of what it would do to an RB's career if he did not get hit for 4-5 years and then joined the NFL.

 

[David Yudkin]

For people trying to figure out what to expect from Cassel, Brady came in and put up 2846/18 filling in for Bledsoe in basically 14 and a half games played.

I would expect similar numbers from Cassel, but he has the benefit of Moss. IMO, Welker = Troy Brown, although I'm not sure Welker will be as productive as Brown was that year (101-1199-5).

 

[GroveDiesel]

It still doesn't make any sense to me. The only thing that makes sense is the part about trying not to shake Cassel's confidence. And I would hope that his confidence wouldn't have been that easily shaken. If the Patriots previously thought that they would be better off with Simms or Rattay as a backup or 3rd stringer and Gutierrez on the practice squad, what makes them think that they're better off with Gutierrez as the 3rd stringer now?

 

[EBF]

My advice to Cassel:

Throw the ball to that #81 guy and everything will be okay.

This is the Daunte Culpepper plan for turning a bad QB into a Pro Bowler.

 

[GregR_2]

For people trying to figure out what to expect from Cassel, Brady came in and put up 2846/18 filling in for Bledsoe in basically 14 and a half games played.I would expect similar numbers from Cassel, but he has the benefit of Moss. IMO, Welker = Troy Brown, although I'm not sure Welker will be as productive as Brown was that year (101-1199-5).

Though he doesn't have the benefit of being Tom Brady.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

I expect big things from Matt Cassel. Top 10 QB...maybe top 5.

I expect we will all realize very shortly that Belichick is no coaching mastermind without Brady. But if he doesn't miss a beat with Cassel at the helm, well then maybe he is the greatest coach that ever lived.

Can we quantify that? Do the Pats need 11+ wins and a SB victory, or just the SB victory, or just 11+ wins, with Cassel at the helm, to achieve "not missing a beat"?In either scenario, if Cassel makes top 10 QB this year, is their some way to give the credit to somebody else besides BB for rolling with Cassel?Possible excuses would include "easy schedule", "nfl conspiracy", other?Just trying to nail the criteria down up front...For the record, any guess I make is exactly that, but I'll roll with 10 wins, division champ, SB victory over the Eagles, Cassel finishes as QB11. The SB victory is not something I have confidence in today, but the other stuff is still reasonable.Edited to add: And the reverse criteria? What poor performance validates Belichick as completely dependent on Brady? Missing the playoffs? 6-10 record? What if the Pats finish 9-7, just miss the playoffs, and Cassel doesn't work out? Does that validate Belichick needing Brady to be anything other than an also ran?

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Sounds like they werent too confident in Cassel and were hoping to have a better back-up QB should Brady go down or be banged up later in the season. I guess they werent anticipating an injury so early in the season.

 

[MCguidance]

while Cassel hasn't started a game since high school, look at the quarterbacks he has been #2 for:Carson PalmerMatt Leinart - both of whom were Giants in college; and thenTom BradyPlus he has been in the system for several years and knows the playbook 100% - he is a very smart kidThat said any talk of Top 10 is very wishful thinking

I am tempted to compare his first year starter status to Aaron Rodgers, Pennington, etc. However, Rodgers did start (and do well in college) so it's hard to compare the two. It wouldn't surprise me to see Cassel do well, I just wouldn't expect top 5 numbers. If the Pats commit to passing the ball again I think by sheer opportunities he could put up top 10 numbers. TBD, though.

 

[David Yudkin]

Sounds like they werent too confident in Cassel and were hoping to have a better back-up QB should Brady go down or be banged up later in the season. I guess they werent anticipating an injury so early in the season.

I think this may show a few things:- That perhaps O'Connell (brought in as the heir apparent to be Brady's backup) may need more seasoning and they wanted someone else to avoid having to play O'Connell this year.- That they wanted to be proactive and more options available to them if Brady got hurt (which is a little late now).- That they wanted someone with more game day experience for the playoffs so if Brady was dinged up (like last year) they had someone available that didn't need on the job training in the middle of an AFC title game or Super Bowl.- That while they may have some faith in Cassel as a backup that they were at least concerned enough to have a PLAN B or at least a PLAN C if needed.Clearly they would rather have Brady than Cassel, but they also would rather have Cassel than the other options available right now. So unless Cassel really swings and misses, he will be the guy. The next question from people will be, if Cassel were to flop, then what. I would guess we would go down the pecking order (Gutierrez then O'Connell).Another option beyond Cassel might be a trade for more of a starter than a backup, perhaps from a team with limited playoff chances with a bad record. I don't know who would fit that criteria, as we are not at that point yet anyway.Someone mentioned Jake Plummer yesterday, and I still haven't figured out if he is a free agent or not or whether TB still owns his rights. I would guess even if the Bucs did "own" him that the Pats could trade second day draft pick to acquire him.

 

[Sidewinder16]

while Cassel hasn't started a game since high school, look at the quarterbacks he has been #2 for:Carson PalmerMatt Leinart - both of whom were Giants in college

Actually, they were both Trojans in college.

 

[QUEZILLA]

The QB decision is gong to be up to Randy Moss. If he doesn't like something, then he will begn taking plays off. He did it in Oakland, and I wouldn't be surprisd if he did it in NE.

 

[biggyd]

Could Matt Cassel's contract situation be a SMALL factor in this situation? Now that they have the opportunity to showcase this asset, the Patriots will be able to determine his value and either trade him for draft picks, resign him or release him in the offseason.

let me reiterate could his contract be A SMALL FACTOR?

 

[David Yudkin]

Could Matt Cassel's contract situation be a SMALL factor in this situation? Now that they have the opportunity to showcase this asset, the Patriots will be able to determine his value and either trade him for draft picks, resign him or release him in the offseason.let me reiterate could his contract be A SMALL FACTOR?

He will be a free agent after this year.

 

[biggyd]

restricted or unrestricted?

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Sounds like they werent too confident in Cassel and were hoping to have a better back-up QB should Brady go down or be banged up later in the season. I guess they werent anticipating an injury so early in the season.

I think this may show a few things:- That perhaps O'Connell (brought in as the heir apparent to be Brady's backup) may need more seasoning and they wanted someone else to avoid having to play O'Connell this year.

- That they wanted to be proactive and more options available to them if Brady got hurt (which is a little late now).

- That they wanted someone with more game day experience for the playoffs so if Brady was dinged up (like last year) they had someone available that didn't need on the job training in the middle of an AFC title game or Super Bowl.

- That while they may have some faith in Cassel as a backup that they were at least concerned enough to have a PLAN B or at least a PLAN C if needed.

Clearly they would rather have Brady than Cassel, but they also would rather have Cassel than the other options available right now. So unless Cassel really swings and misses, he will be the guy. The next question from people will be, if Cassel were to flop, then what. I would guess we would go down the pecking order (Gutierrez then O'Connell).

Another option beyond Cassel might be a trade for more of a starter than a backup, perhaps from a team with limited playoff chances with a bad record. I don't know who would fit that criteria, as we are not at that point yet anyway.

Someone mentioned Jake Plummer yesterday, and I still haven't figured out if he is a free agent or not or whether TB still owns his rights. I would guess even if the Bucs did "own" him that the Pats could trade second day draft pick to acquire him.

I feel like there was some kind of settlement or arbitration award which makes me thinks he would be a FA.

 

[David Yudkin]

restricted or unrestricted?

Whatever a player is after fully completing his rookie contract.

 

[JuniorNB]

The QB decision is gong to be up to Randy Moss. If he doesn't like something, then he will begn taking plays off. He did it in Oakland, and I wouldn't be surprisd if he did it in NE.

It will be very interesting to see if Moss did, indeed, grew up since his tenure with the Raiders, or if it was just a result of him playing on a productive team.It has still yet to be seen if Moss will give 100% and have a positive attitude while playing on a bad team. He never has yet. Of course, it's still to be decided if New england will be a bad team without Brady.

 

[-jb-]

I think it's a real stretch to say that Cassel will compare to any of the QBs mentioned thus far in this thread, but it has little to do with him as a player. I tend to agree with Yudkin that they will bring him along slowly to limit mistakes. As a coach(ing staff), they have to realize that opposing defenses are going to to EVERYTHING to shake, rattle and roll him into submission. As defensive game plans change, so must offensive plans. The Patriots know the Jets are bum-rushing Cassel, and they will ensure that the ball is out of hands quickly. The same would be true of whomever would be QB, including Brady. Make adjustments, and take what you get...Maroney, Morris, and Welker (on quick slants) are going to be very, very tired after week 2.

All that said, I do envision that the first offensive play from NE will be a bomb to Moss.

 

[QUEZILLA]

The QB decision is gong to be up to Randy Moss. If he doesn't like something, then he will begn taking plays off. He did it in Oakland, and I wouldn't be surprisd if he did it in NE.

It will be very interesting to see if Moss did, indeed, grew up since his tenure with the Raiders, or if it was just a result of him playing on a productive team.It has still yet to be seen if Moss will give 100% and have a positive attitude while playing on a bad team. He never has yet. Of course, it's still to be decided if New england will be a bad team without Brady.

All it takes is for Moss to start seeing a few less balls thrown his way, and then he will hang it up imo.

 

[NoFBinLA]

Could Matt Cassel's contract situation be a SMALL factor in this situation? Now that they have the opportunity to showcase this asset, the Patriots will be able to determine his value and either trade him for draft picks, resign him or release him in the offseason.let me reiterate could his contract be A SMALL FACTOR?

He will be a free agent after this year.

And sorry if this is a honda as I haven't finished the thread but the Pats staff seemed to be SURe he would catch on elsewhere in the offseason. Maybe it's just a :smokescreen: but it sounds liek they feel he's good enough to be a starting QB and he would take a chance elsewhere to prove it.DY or someone can contradict me but I've heard this a few times the last year or so, and it sounds like they think a lot of the kid.

 

[Vintage_Football]

The QB decision is gong to be up to Randy Moss. If he doesn't like something, then he will begn taking plays off. He did it in Oakland, and I wouldn't be surprisd if he did it in NE.

It will be very interesting to see if Moss did, indeed, grew up since his tenure with the Raiders, or if it was just a result of him playing on a productive team.It has still yet to be seen if Moss will give 100% and have a positive attitude while playing on a bad team. He never has yet. Of course, it's still to be decided if New england will be a bad team without Brady.

All it takes is for Moss to start seeing a few less balls thrown his way, and then he will hang it up imo.

You weren't any less productive when you had less balls thrown your way...but lets face it....we can't compare Moss to the *Q*

 

[EugeneChung]

I really don't get all this "Moss is going to hang it up" talk. The kid threw him a jump ball that only he could in the endzone last week and barely overthrew him on another 20+ yard completion.

Moss is a huge part of the offense and an easy target for developing QB. Maybe he gets a couple less balls thrown to him but if you had a mismatch due to Moss' size and freakish ability alone wouldn't you throw it to him? It all sounds like people trying to lower Moss' value to get him in a trade or make themselves feel better bout not drafting him.

Also, Moss is a team captain, part of a stellar organization with incredible leaders around him (Vrabel, Bruschi, etc), and I really can't imagine Bellicheck letting resentment go unchecked. Comparing Denny Green or the Raiders situation to the Pats is just absurd, imho.

 

[Gr00vus]

I'd expect more emphasis on the running game for the Pats. That line has already gotten one QB killed, they can't afford to expose Cassel to that much pressure a)because I highly doubt he'll be as successful at handling it as Brady has been b)because if he goes down I doubt O'Connel or Gutierrez are going to be taking the team very far in the playoffs IF they get there.

 

[JuniorNB]

I really don't get all this "Moss is going to hang it up" talk. The kid threw him a jump ball that only he could in the endzone last week and barely overthrew him on another 20+ yard completion. Moss is a huge part of the offense and an easy target for developing QB. Maybe he gets a couple less balls thrown to him but if you had a mismatch due to Moss' size and freakish ability alone wouldn't you throw it to him? It all sounds like people trying to lower Moss' value to get him in a trade or make themselves feel better bout not drafting him. Also, Moss is a team captain, part of a stellar organization with incredible leaders around him (Vrabel, Bruschi, etc), and I really can't imagine Bellicheck letting resentment go unchecked. Comparing Denny Green or the Raiders situation to the Pats is just absurd, imho.

No one's comparing Bellichick to Dennis Green or th Raiders situation. We're comparing Randy Moss to Randy Moss. It's the same person.