What happens with the Dolphins QBs now that Penny re-signed? (1 Viewer)

[Sweet Love]

If the Phins are heavy in one position, it is QB. In fact, you can argue that three guys could start for other teams and Pat White would be Wild Cat option #1 for about 30 others. Henne is the starter and going nowhere. Penny re-sign, but put a minor poison pill in where he gets 1.5 million bonus if traded and he also serves as a good mentor and fine backup if Henne were to go down. This leaves Thigpen and White...basically two wildcards. White was selected by the team in the 2nd round last year, so I see him going nowhere in 2010...which leaves us with Thigpen (who the Phins traded for when Penny went down in 2009). I doubt they keep four QBs and I could see Thigpen on many NFL rosters as a backup with the chance of challenging for the #1 job if the current #1 were to falter. Thigpen was a very good college QB (for an minor D1 team), and when he had the chance to start, put up great numbers (again in an unorthodox setting as a spread QB in the NFL). Not sure how he would be in a day in, day out basis, but if a were a GM for a team like Carolina, I would be making the call now.

Curious to see how the pool sees this one playing out. Could they keep four QBs and basically leave a special spot on the roster for someone like White?

 

[Mr. Retukes]

They won't keep 4. They'll either cut White or trade Thigpen.

White in the wildcat = failure.

Unfortunately, the "logical" move (and I use that term lightly) is to trade Thigpen, since White is perceived to have more value (thanks to his status as a 2nd round pick). Yet Thigpen is the only one who showed potential to be a legit quarterback.

BTW, did you know that Thigpen was the first person to ever play quarterback for Coastal Carolina? They never fielded a football team prior to 2003.

 

[r0llin_game]

How do you figure Henne is going nowhere?

 

[CalBear]

Curious to see how the pool sees this one playing out. Could they keep four QBs and basically leave a special spot on the roster for someone like White?

Maybe they figure that four crappy QBs add up to one good one.

 

[UW72]

you have no clue, when you say Henne or Pennington are crappy QBs

Both would be starters in 3/4 of the league...

 

[SSOG]

you have no clue, when you say Henne or Pennington are crappy QBsBoth would be starters in 3/4 of the league...

3/4s? You really mean that Henne and Pennington are both better than all but 8 starting QBs? Yeah, not so much. Henne's a legit starter, although a low-end one until he actually does anything. Pennington was a legit starter, but now he's had major season-ending injuries in 3 of the last 5 seasons, which means he's quality depth.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

you have no clue, when you say Henne or Pennington are crappy QBsBoth would be starters in 3/4 of the league...

3/4s? You really mean that Henne and Pennington are both better than all but 8 starting QBs? Yeah, not so much. Henne's a legit starter, although a low-end one until he actually does anything. Pennington was a legit starter, but now he's had major season-ending injuries in 3 of the last 5 seasons, which means he's quality depth.

Pennington blows, sorry for being blunt. The guy can't stay healthy and can't throw deep....fine, he's good at play action passes and can hit the tight end down the middle for 15 yards.I like Henne, the last of the pro set QB's from Michigan. He's the guy they're going to build that offense around, probably keep White for another season and see what they can do with him and Thigpen is the odd guy out.

 

[Kirby]

I read that the Bills are interested in Thigpen.

 

[=Smackdown=]

What should happen . . . cut/trade/forget they ever drafted Pat White and keep Thigpen as the 3rd QB.

What will happen . . . trading Thigpen for a 4th or 5th rd pick.

No way they keep 4 QB's.

Like the Pennington signing - hope he stays after this year in some sort of coaching capacity.

 

[Gatorman]

Bills are interested in thigpen. As for Penny, he is aware that he is the #3. He has his family down in Miami and wants to stay in football. He also would like to coach one day. That is why he made such a fuss about the no trade clause, but relented when he got the "trade bonus" in his contract.

I think it goes like this: Henne, Thigpen, Penny, White. If someone comes calling for penny or thigpen, the phins will think about a move. This also gives them the whole offseason to turn pat white into something.

 

[FUBAR]

How do you figure Henne is going nowhere?

wut? why in tarnation would he go anywhere?

 

[r0llin_game]

How do you figure Henne is going nowhere?

wut? why in tarnation would he go anywhere?

I took it as progression wise of "going nowhere". now that I reread it, obviously took it the wrong way, lol.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Henne - I like his potential

Penny - nothing but a backup

White - too early to write him off, I see him being a wildcat option as long as Miami doesnt abandon the formations

Thigpen - traded or cut coming soon. deep dynasty waiver wire fodder

 

[Native]

I know people dont want to hear this, but I wouldnt be surprised if White is cut in training camp if they cant work out a trade for Thigpen or Penny. Bottom line is that the Wildcat looks MUCH better with Ricky and Ronnie running it than with Pat White. This is obvious to everyone although noone in the Miami organization wants to admit it yet.

 

[Franklin Delano Bluth]

Pat White was awful last season, but the Dolphins won't get rid of him because they don't want to admit that they wasted a high draft pick.

 

[identikit]

White was a true whiff of a pick by Parcells...

Doesn't happen all that often.

 

[Sweet Love]

I know people dont want to hear this, but I wouldnt be surprised if White is cut in training camp if they cant work out a trade for Thigpen or Penny. Bottom line is that the Wildcat looks MUCH better with Ricky and Ronnie running it than with Pat White. This is obvious to everyone although noone in the Miami organization wants to admit it yet.

See, and this is the type of thinking that makes me think he gets one more year. I just can't see them severing ties with him so soon...now if Ronnie Brown was never injured, that may be a different story.

 

[Couch Potato]

Henne is safe as starter, Pennington and White Q2/3 depending on White's development and Pennington's recovery. Thigpen has trade value I think, and will be dealt somewhere. Possibly Buffalo, possibly Cleveland.

I've been adding Thigpen in deep leagues as a decent bet to be Buffalo's starter next year. HC Gailey was OC in KC when Thigpen put up his numbers in 2008. I think Vick is still a good possibility there and we'll see how that goes, but I'm adding Thiggyboy for now where I have the room.

BUF brass has stated emphatically they need a QB with a strong arm to play in that weather and cut through the wind, and to me it was a way of saying that leaves out their current options (Edwards, Fitzpatrick, and Brohm) as well as guys like Bulger and Delhomme at this point in their careers. Derek Anderson is a possibility there also because he has a big arm, although IMO he'll never be a starting-quality QB mentally.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

As a Miami fan I am very thankful that Penny is coming back. I have had the pleasue of shaking hands with this guy a couple times and he couldn't be a nicer fellow around fans, media, whoever. I think he will be a great coach down the road. People don't understand how awful the 1-15 season was, never got used to losing when Wanny showed up.

I believe there will be a competition in training camp and Penny starting the season will not shock me.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

you have no clue, when you say Henne or Pennington are crappy QBs

Both would be starters in 3/4 of the league...

3/4s? You really mean that Henne and Pennington are both better than all but 8 starting QBs? Yeah, not so much. Henne's a legit starter, although a low-end one until he actually does anything. Pennington was a legit starter, but now he's had major season-ending injuries in 3 of the last 5 seasons, which means he's quality depth.

Pennington blows, sorry for being blunt. The guy can't stay healthy and can't throw deep....fine, he's good at play action passes and can hit the tight end down the middle for 15 yards.I like Henne, the last of the pro set QB's from Michigan. He's the guy they're going to build that offense around, probably keep White for another season and see what they can do with him and Thigpen is the odd guy out.

Again, board credibility sags when you post things like this. Pennington was hurt last season but he took a 1-15 team and turned them into 11-5 division champs the next year. Orton blows, Leinart blows, Alex Smith blows...I don' think a guy that has a completion percentage of 66%, QB Rating of over 90 for his career(higher than Marino's I might add), and has almost a 2:1 ratio of TDs vs Interceptions blows. Please be careful what you post, thanks.

 

[Couch Potato]

you have no clue, when you say Henne or Pennington are crappy QBs

Both would be starters in 3/4 of the league...

3/4s? You really mean that Henne and Pennington are both better than all but 8 starting QBs? Yeah, not so much. Henne's a legit starter, although a low-end one until he actually does anything. Pennington was a legit starter, but now he's had major season-ending injuries in 3 of the last 5 seasons, which means he's quality depth.

Pennington blows, sorry for being blunt. The guy can't stay healthy and can't throw deep....fine, he's good at play action passes and can hit the tight end down the middle for 15 yards.I like Henne, the last of the pro set QB's from Michigan. He's the guy they're going to build that offense around, probably keep White for another season and see what they can do with him and Thigpen is the odd guy out.

Again, board credibility sags when you post things like this. Pennington was hurt last season but he took a 1-15 team and turned them into 11-5 division champs the next year. Orton blows, Leinart blows, Alex Smith blows...I don' think a guy that has a completion percentage of 66%, QB Rating of over 90 for his career(higher than Marino's I might add), and has almost a 2:1 ratio of TDs vs Interceptions blows. Please be careful what you post, thanks.

Pennington was 2nd in 2008 league MVP voting behind Manning. He's been hurt and he couldn't throw deep, true, but he made absolutely the best of what he had. "Blows" is pretty harsh, and unfair. It's been proven time and again there's a lot more to being a successful NFL QB than arm strength.

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

you have no clue, when you say Henne or Pennington are crappy QBs

Both would be starters in 3/4 of the league...

3/4s? You really mean that Henne and Pennington are both better than all but 8 starting QBs? Yeah, not so much. Henne's a legit starter, although a low-end one until he actually does anything. Pennington was a legit starter, but now he's had major season-ending injuries in 3 of the last 5 seasons, which means he's quality depth.

Pennington blows, sorry for being blunt. The guy can't stay healthy and can't throw deep....fine, he's good at play action passes and can hit the tight end down the middle for 15 yards.I like Henne, the last of the pro set QB's from Michigan. He's the guy they're going to build that offense around, probably keep White for another season and see what they can do with him and Thigpen is the odd guy out.

Again, board credibility sags when you post things like this. Pennington was hurt last season but he took a 1-15 team and turned them into 11-5 division champs the next year. Orton blows, Leinart blows, Alex Smith blows...I don' think a guy that has a completion percentage of 66%, QB Rating of over 90 for his career(higher than Marino's I might add), and has almost a 2:1 ratio of TDs vs Interceptions blows. Please be careful what you post, thanks.

I'll never understand the amount of disrespect that he gets. The guy has been solid WHEN he is healthy.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

you have no clue, when you say Henne or Pennington are crappy QBs

Both would be starters in 3/4 of the league...

3/4s? You really mean that Henne and Pennington are both better than all but 8 starting QBs? Yeah, not so much. Henne's a legit starter, although a low-end one until he actually does anything. Pennington was a legit starter, but now he's had major season-ending injuries in 3 of the last 5 seasons, which means he's quality depth.

Pennington blows, sorry for being blunt. The guy can't stay healthy and can't throw deep....fine, he's good at play action passes and can hit the tight end down the middle for 15 yards.I like Henne, the last of the pro set QB's from Michigan. He's the guy they're going to build that offense around, probably keep White for another season and see what they can do with him and Thigpen is the odd guy out.

Again, board credibility sags when you post things like this. Pennington was hurt last season but he took a 1-15 team and turned them into 11-5 division champs the next year. Orton blows, Leinart blows, Alex Smith blows...I don' think a guy that has a completion percentage of 66%, QB Rating of over 90 for his career(higher than Marino's I might add), and has almost a 2:1 ratio of TDs vs Interceptions blows. Please be careful what you post, thanks.

I'll never understand the amount of disrespect that he gets. The guy has been solid WHEN he is healthy.

Not only that, but a high-character, great teammate too. Does he have the arm strength of Elway c. 1983? Well, no. He's probably not got Elways arm strength c. 2023. But he's been a good NFL QB pretty much every season he's been healthy. Nice to see folks rallying to his defense.

 

[cobalt_27]

I want to hear moar about this 3/4 theory for Henne and Pennington.

 

[DesmondBishop]

you have no clue, when you say Henne or Pennington are crappy QBsBoth would be starters in 3/4 of the league...

3/4s? You really mean that Henne and Pennington are both better than all but 8 starting QBs? Yeah, not so much. Henne's a legit starter, although a low-end one until he actually does anything. Pennington was a legit starter, but now he's had major season-ending injuries in 3 of the last 5 seasons, which means he's quality depth.

I also think Henne has good upside, last year he was basically a rookie in terms of starting and he did pretty good, I think he only gets better. I also think given a chance Thigpen would be decent to good as a starting QB, he has a good arm and is pretty athletic, look at his numbers in 08 for KC the last 6 -8 games when given the chance to play and throw the ball, he was good considering who he was playing for.

 

[CanadianNFLJunkie]

you have no clue, when you say Henne or Pennington are crappy QBs

Both would be starters in 3/4 of the league...

3/4s? You really mean that Henne and Pennington are both better than all but 8 starting QBs? Yeah, not so much. Henne's a legit starter, although a low-end one until he actually does anything. Pennington was a legit starter, but now he's had major season-ending injuries in 3 of the last 5 seasons, which means he's quality depth.

Pennington blows, sorry for being blunt. The guy can't stay healthy and can't throw deep....fine, he's good at play action passes and can hit the tight end down the middle for 15 yards.I like Henne, the last of the pro set QB's from Michigan. He's the guy they're going to build that offense around, probably keep White for another season and see what they can do with him and Thigpen is the odd guy out.

Again, board credibility sags when you post things like this. Pennington was hurt last season but he took a 1-15 team and turned them into 11-5 division champs the next year. Orton blows, Leinart blows, Alex Smith blows...I don' think a guy that has a completion percentage of 66%, QB Rating of over 90 for his career(higher than Marino's I might add), and has almost a 2:1 ratio of TDs vs Interceptions blows. Please be careful what you post, thanks.

I'll never understand the amount of disrespect that he gets. The guy has been solid WHEN he is healthy.

First off Pennington only plays well the first year he goes to a team, check the stats. This isn't the 80's anymore people where a Bernie Kosar type of QB can win for you in the NFL. Defenses are waay to fast for the weak-armed tossers. He's older, slower and for sure his arm is weaker. He's an insurance policy for the team in case White and Thigpen don't show anything in the preseason, to claim the #2 spot. I say Pennington will only make the team because White and Thigpen didn't show enough in camp and in the exhibition games, so in other words, Pennington ends up getting cut in early September.

 

[loose circuits]

thought somebody would have mentioned this. Anyone think Pat White converts to WR?

 

[DesmondBishop]

thought somebody would have mentioned this. Anyone think Pat White converts to WR?

Any news on Antonio Bryant? Dolphin homers, would you rather have Bryant or have them draft a WR early as the potential #1 WR? I really thought Boldin was a money fit for the Dolphins and for cheap, really surprised they did not make that move.

 

[FUBAR]

thought somebody would have mentioned this. Anyone think Pat White converts to WR?

Any news on Antonio Bryant? Dolphin homers, would you rather have Bryant or have them draft a WR early as the potential #1 WR? I really thought Boldin was a money fit for the Dolphins and for cheap, really surprised they did not make that move.

I'm not a finfan, but if it were me I'd love Bryant, Bryant and Bess with Ginn being used strategically and on returns.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Thigpen was a very good college QB (for an minor D1 team), and when he had the chance to start, put up great numbers (again in an unorthodox setting as a spread QB in the NFL).

Great numbers?Thigpen only played for one season, 2008. In that year:-- he ranked 29th out of 32 in yards per attempt-- he ranked 28th out of 34 in net yards per attempt-- he ranked 27th in adjusted yards per attempt-- he ranked 26th in adjusted net yards per attempt

 

[Yellow Line is Unoffcial]

I read that the Bills are interested in Thigpen.

Chan had hin in KC running the spread, would be a good fit and add value to Fred Jackson

 

[DesmondBishop]

Thigpen was a very good college QB (for an minor D1 team), and when he had the chance to start, put up great numbers (again in an unorthodox setting as a spread QB in the NFL).

Great numbers?Thigpen only played for one season, 2008. In that year:

-- he ranked 29th out of 32 in yards per attempt

-- he ranked 28th out of 34 in net yards per attempt

-- he ranked 27th in adjusted yards per attempt

-- he ranked 26th in adjusted net yards per attempt

I am not saying he was great, but your numbers are skewed. He only started 11 games and he played in one of the worst offenses in the NFL, in that scenario, his numbers are not terrible for what he had to work with. 55 Comp % 18 TD's 12 INT's 76 QB Rating - again, he had little to work with and he kept them in these games and most were decided by a TD or less.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxs...y00&yr=2008

 

[PizzaDeliveryGuy]

I'll never understand the amount of disrespect that he gets. The guy has been solid WHEN he is healthy.

First off Pennington only plays well the first year he goes to a team, check the stats. This isn't the 80's anymore people where a Bernie Kosar type of QB can win for you in the NFL. Defenses are waay to fast for the weak-armed tossers. He's older, slower and for sure his arm is weaker. He's an insurance policy for the team in case White and Thigpen don't show anything in the preseason, to claim the #2 spot. I say Pennington will only make the team because White and Thigpen didn't show enough in camp and in the exhibition games, so in other words, Pennington ends up getting cut in early September.

The first year thing is just an odd thing to bring up as it doesn't mean or show anything. I am not sure where you are going there. Secondly, the guy has a 43-34 record with a 90.1 career rating with some fairly average teams. He is two years removed from a pretty impressive year so bringing up the 80s doesn't really fly. If you think that he has seriously declined since his most recent injury then I can see where you are coming from and time will tell but people talking about Pennington being horrible because they are so enamored with the big arm QBs is a bit ridiculous. There is always room in the NFL for intelligent accurate passers. I would take a Pennington over a Cutler any day.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I'll never really understand why someone doesn't at least give Thigpen a chance. He played well in KC in his time there (and made them a much better team while he was in, as they were much more competitive in their games), and in the one game he was asked to step in for the Dolphins he played great, taking an offense that was stagnant all game and marching them down the field three times in the 4th quarter.

He's cheap too, not sure why Buffalo or Arizona wouldn't at least bring him in for a shot.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Thigpen was a very good college QB (for an minor D1 team), and when he had the chance to start, put up great numbers (again in an unorthodox setting as a spread QB in the NFL).

Great numbers?Thigpen only played for one season, 2008. In that year:-- he ranked 29th out of 32 in yards per attempt-- he ranked 28th out of 34 in net yards per attempt-- he ranked 27th in adjusted yards per attempt-- he ranked 26th in adjusted net yards per attempt

It was his second year in the league, and his first year actually playing. He threw for 2300 yards with 17 TDs and 9 INTs in 11 starts on one of the worst teams in football. If someone were drafted in the 1st round and did that, everyone here would be gushing over them.His overall ypa were low, but that's skewed by his 4.6, 3.6, and 3.7 ypa attempt in his first three games ever playing. Beyond that they were pretty normal, and again he was a second year guy playing for the first time, one of the worst teams in football. He made them much more competitive as a team as well. The two games before he came in they lost by a combined 64-10, then he came in and they lost be less than a FG in three straight games, against several playoff teams.In his one time seeing action in Miami, Miami's offense had been stagnant all game, then he came in and they were magically able to move the ball with no problem.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Thigpen was a very good college QB (for an minor D1 team), and when he had the chance to start, put up great numbers (again in an unorthodox setting as a spread QB in the NFL).

Great numbers?Thigpen only played for one season, 2008. In that year:-- he ranked 29th out of 32 in yards per attempt-- he ranked 28th out of 34 in net yards per attempt-- he ranked 27th in adjusted yards per attempt-- he ranked 26th in adjusted net yards per attempt

It was his second year in the league, and his first year actually playing. He threw for 2300 yards with 17 TDs and 9 INTs in 11 starts on one of the worst teams in football. If someone were drafted in the 1st round and did that, everyone here would be gushing over them.His overall ypa were low, but that's skewed by his 4.6, 3.6, and 3.7 ypa attempt in his first three games ever playing. Beyond that they were pretty normal, and again he was a second year guy playing for the first time, one of the worst teams in football. He made them much more competitive as a team as well. The two games before he came in they lost by a combined 64-10, then he came in and they lost be less than a FG in three straight games, against several playoff teams.In his one time seeing action in Miami, Miami's offense had been stagnant all game, then he came in and they were magically able to move the ball with no problem.

Saying he put up "great numbers" is an extreme overstatement. Saying he wasn't absolutely miserable playing as a first-year starter is much more accurate. He went 1-10 as a starter. I think if he was a first round pick, he would have been skewered for being a bad QB. He passed a lot, but that doesn't mean he was good; he put up decent raw stats on a team that saw a lot of garbage time, but his efficiency stats were really bad. There's no way to sugarcoat that. He also had Tony Gonzalez and Dwayne Bowe (and Larry Johnson wasn't bad) so it's not like he had no help around him. Damon Huard and Brodie Croyle were terrible, so I'll agree that he made KC a bit better.

 

[Sweet Love]

Thigpen was a very good college QB (for an minor D1 team), and when he had the chance to start, put up great numbers (again in an unorthodox setting as a spread QB in the NFL).

Great numbers?Thigpen only played for one season, 2008. In that year:-- he ranked 29th out of 32 in yards per attempt-- he ranked 28th out of 34 in net yards per attempt-- he ranked 27th in adjusted yards per attempt-- he ranked 26th in adjusted net yards per attempt

I get it...his yards per attempt and multiple bastardizations of the stat were not impressive. I guess I was impressed by the fact he went for 18 Tds and 12 Ints, 3 rushing TDs and 1 receiving TD on a crummy 1-15-like team. Chad Pennington and Troy Aikman for their careers only surpassed 22 total TDs once each.

 

[Chase Stuart]

Thigpen was a very good college QB (for an minor D1 team), and when he had the chance to start, put up great numbers (again in an unorthodox setting as a spread QB in the NFL).

Great numbers?Thigpen only played for one season, 2008. In that year:-- he ranked 29th out of 32 in yards per attempt-- he ranked 28th out of 34 in net yards per attempt-- he ranked 27th in adjusted yards per attempt-- he ranked 26th in adjusted net yards per attempt

I get it...his yards per attempt and multiple bastardizations of the stat were not impressive. I guess I was impressed by the fact he went for 18 Tds and 12 Ints, 3 rushing TDs and 1 receiving TD on a crummy 1-15-like team. Chad Pennington and Troy Aikman for their careers only surpassed 22 total TDs once each.

One of the reasons his team was a crummy, 1-15 like team was because the QB wasn't very good. I agree that his TD/INT ratio are nice, but that's a bit less important to me than his efficiency numbers. TD/INT is also difficult to reconcile with era, as this is the friendly TD/INT era of all-time.

 

[Sweet Love]

Thigpen was a very good college QB (for an minor D1 team), and when he had the chance to start, put up great numbers (again in an unorthodox setting as a spread QB in the NFL).

Great numbers?Thigpen only played for one season, 2008. In that year:-- he ranked 29th out of 32 in yards per attempt-- he ranked 28th out of 34 in net yards per attempt-- he ranked 27th in adjusted yards per attempt-- he ranked 26th in adjusted net yards per attempt

I get it...his yards per attempt and multiple bastardizations of the stat were not impressive. I guess I was impressed by the fact he went for 18 Tds and 12 Ints, 3 rushing TDs and 1 receiving TD on a crummy 1-15-like team. Chad Pennington and Troy Aikman for their careers only surpassed 22 total TDs once each.

One of the reasons his team was a crummy, 1-15 like team was because the QB wasn't very good. I agree that his TD/INT ratio are nice, but that's a bit less important to me than his efficiency numbers. TD/INT is also difficult to reconcile with era, as this is the friendly TD/INT era of all-time.

I see where you are coming from, but with that team, I would look at 9 other offensive players and 11 other defensive players before I would think Thigpen was part of the problem. I did mention that he was in a QB friendly spread offense, but he at least deserves a chance to start again with how he did as a second year guy out of a tiny school...and all things considered, I still think those are great numbers. Again, they are only over a 12 game span...

 

[Couch Potato]

I agree with FreeBaGeL and Sweet Love here. I think it's important to view Thibbyboy's stats in context of experience, surrounding team, what the team was doing before he was inserted as starter, and how much better they began to do after his arrival.

I'd also look at the Y/A ranking only after throwing out the week 2 and 3 games (his first two games), which were miserable but were his breaking in period. I'd also not ignore his 368 yards and 3 TDs running and keeping drives alive. Stat heads need to see the forest for the trees, and this is one of those times. Thigpen made them competitive where they were not before his arrival, and I believe he has important intangibles that can't be measured by some weak efficiency stat.

 

[Chase Stuart]

I agree with FreeBaGeL and Sweet Love here. I think it's important to view Thibbyboy's stats in context of experience, surrounding team, what the team was doing before he was inserted as starter, and how much better they began to do after his arrival.

I'd also look at the Y/A ranking only after throwing out the week 2 and 3 games (his first two games), which were miserable but were his breaking in period. I'd also not ignore his 368 yards and 3 TDs running and keeping drives alive. Stat heads need to see the forest for the trees, and this is one of those times. Thigpen made them competitive where they were not before his arrival, and I believe he has important intangibles that can't be measured by some weak efficiency stat.

The team was 1-10 with him. How competitive is that exactly?No one was talking about his intangibles before; the claim was that he had good stats. Well, he didn't have good stats. If you want to say he has great intangibles and he's a gritty, good player despite bad stats, that's a totally different argument. I think it's a reasonable one to make. But if you want to be consistent in your evaluation of a QB, you need to use the same stats. Now using raw yards or raw TDs is not nearly as good a measure as per attempt numbers. And Thigpen's per attempt numbers were really bad.

And if you want to use them in the context of his experience, I think they're not bad. I'd at least agree with that; but for an NFL QB -- not a first-year starter -- his numbers stunk. Among QBs the past six seasons in their first or second seasons starting, Thigpen's 6.2 Y/A average ranked 26th out of 37 QBs, and the people who ranked below him is a pretty ugly list of QBs. The only one on there who looks like he might be good is Stafford, who isn't a fair comparison to Thigpen since he was just 21 years old while Thigpen was 24 years old.

I agree that Thigpen's a mobile QB who has a decent arm, and maybe he's shown some things in spurts. But still, overall, he's been pretty meh to me.

 

[Couch Potato]

I agree with FreeBaGeL and Sweet Love here. I think it's important to view Thibbyboy's stats in context of experience, surrounding team, what the team was doing before he was inserted as starter, and how much better they began to do after his arrival.I'd also look at the Y/A ranking only after throwing out the week 2 and 3 games (his first two games), which were miserable but were his breaking in period. I'd also not ignore his 368 yards and 3 TDs running and keeping drives alive. Stat heads need to see the forest for the trees, and this is one of those times. Thigpen made them competitive where they were not before his arrival, and I believe he has important intangibles that can't be measured by some weak efficiency stat.

The team was 1-10 with him. How competitive is that exactly?

I knew you'd fall back on that 1-10 again, and again fall back on YPA taking into account the early weeks when he was just getting his feet wet. Regarding the record, it takes a lot more than one man. He can't play LB, CB, or OL. And if you recall, they had one of the worst OL in the league that year after all the retirements. Yes, clearly he made them more competitive, and the 1-10 record doesn't come close to telling the story.Regarding YPA, if you look at his time as legit starter from week 8 on, his YPA was 6.71 which was T23rd among QBs with 100+ attempts (who were the 3 guys just below him? Favre, McNabb, Eli). Again, bear in mind he was new to this in the NFL and still learning. And he was behind that horrid OL with little time to throw. Geez, just what would anyone's expectations be? And YPA is not the be all end all of stats either. To have an 16/8 TD/INT ratio once he became starter (weeks 8-17) under those circumstances was a damn miracle. His running ability you still want to ignore.But so be it. We'll agree to disagree on Thigpen. I've seen a lot of your arguments on other topics, agree with some and disagree with some. In general I think you are way too wrapped up in narrow stats and miss the big picture on things, but that is just my opinion.

 

[CanadianNFLJunkie]

The first year thing is just an odd thing to bring up as it doesn't mean or show anything. I am not sure where you are going there. Secondly, the guy has a 43-34 record with a 90.1 career rating with some fairly average teams. He is two years removed from a pretty impressive year so bringing up the 80s doesn't really fly. If you think that he has seriously declined since his most recent injury then I can see where you are coming from and time will tell but people talking about Pennington being horrible because they are so enamored with the big arm QBs is a bit ridiculous. There is always room in the NFL for intelligent accurate passers. I would take a Pennington over a Cutler any day.

==

Riiight. So why hasn't Pennington signed a multi-year deal before? Why no love for him practically his entire career? Can you say that defenses are much faster on average than they were 10 years ago, 5 years ago and even 2 years ago? LB'ers are running 4.5's now, safeties are running 4.4's, DL are running high 4.something's. He's never had the arm strength, yes he's a very smart QB who can manage an offense, but unless the running attack is like top-5 he can't play anymore in this league!!

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Riiight. So why hasn't Pennington signed a multi-year deal before? Why no love for him practically his entire career? Can you say that defenses are much faster on average than they were 10 years ago, 5 years ago and even 2 years ago? LB'ers are running 4.5's now, safeties are running 4.4's, DL are running high 4.something's. He's never had the arm strength, yes he's a very smart QB who can manage an offense, but unless the running attack is like top-5 he can't play anymore in this league!!

He was an MVP runner up 2 seasons ago. Have defenses gotten that much faster since 2008 that Pennington went from MVP runner up to completely obsolete?

You can argue that his injury has obsoleted him, but to say it is defensive speed seems silly given his success 2 seasons ago.

 

[beachbum]

I agree with FreeBaGeL and Sweet Love here. I think it's important to view Thibbyboy's stats in context of experience, surrounding team, what the team was doing before he was inserted as starter, and how much better they began to do after his arrival.

I'd also look at the Y/A ranking only after throwing out the week 2 and 3 games (his first two games), which were miserable but were his breaking in period. I'd also not ignore his 368 yards and 3 TDs running and keeping drives alive. Stat heads need to see the forest for the trees, and this is one of those times. Thigpen made them competitive where they were not before his arrival, and I believe he has important intangibles that can't be measured by some weak efficiency stat.

The team was 1-10 with him. How competitive is that exactly?No one was talking about his intangibles before; the claim was that he had good stats. Well, he didn't have good stats. If you want to say he has great intangibles and he's a gritty, good player despite bad stats, that's a totally different argument. I think it's a reasonable one to make. But if you want to be consistent in your evaluation of a QB, you need to use the same stats. Now using raw yards or raw TDs is not nearly as good a measure as per attempt numbers. And Thigpen's per attempt numbers were really bad.

And if you want to use them in the context of his experience, I think they're not bad. I'd at least agree with that; but for an NFL QB -- not a first-year starter -- his numbers stunk. Among QBs the past six seasons in their first or second seasons starting, Thigpen's 6.2 Y/A average ranked 26th out of 37 QBs, and the people who ranked below him is a pretty ugly list of QBs. The only one on there who looks like he might be good is Stafford, who isn't a fair comparison to Thigpen since he was just 21 years old while Thigpen was 24 years old.

I agree that Thigpen's a mobile QB who has a decent arm, and maybe he's shown some things in spurts. But still, overall, he's been pretty meh to me.

I like Y/A as a metric for QBs; I use it when discriminating between players;That said, Chase, if you're going to employ dynamic analyses in the macro sense, where you point out (rightly) that the modern era yields more passing numbers, then I think we should respect dynamic analysis on the micro level where Gailey morphed his offense because of a truly bad offensive line... that KGUN he employed had Thigpen in the shotgun constantly and would never never yielded a respectable Y/A; so, in this narrow instance of evaluating Thigpen, I think we can usefully suggest that the metric's product may be misleading

just my .02

 

[beachbum]

I agree with FreeBaGeL and Sweet Love here. I think it's important to view Thibbyboy's stats in context of experience, surrounding team, what the team was doing before he was inserted as starter, and how much better they began to do after his arrival.

I'd also look at the Y/A ranking only after throwing out the week 2 and 3 games (his first two games), which were miserable but were his breaking in period. I'd also not ignore his 368 yards and 3 TDs running and keeping drives alive. Stat heads need to see the forest for the trees, and this is one of those times. Thigpen made them competitive where they were not before his arrival, and I believe he has important intangibles that can't be measured by some weak efficiency stat.

The team was 1-10 with him. How competitive is that exactly?No one was talking about his intangibles before; the claim was that he had good stats. Well, he didn't have good stats. If you want to say he has great intangibles and he's a gritty, good player despite bad stats, that's a totally different argument. I think it's a reasonable one to make. But if you want to be consistent in your evaluation of a QB, you need to use the same stats. Now using raw yards or raw TDs is not nearly as good a measure as per attempt numbers. And Thigpen's per attempt numbers were really bad.

And if you want to use them in the context of his experience, I think they're not bad. I'd at least agree with that; but for an NFL QB -- not a first-year starter -- his numbers stunk. Among QBs the past six seasons in their first or second seasons starting, Thigpen's 6.2 Y/A average ranked 26th out of 37 QBs, and the people who ranked below him is a pretty ugly list of QBs. The only one on there who looks like he might be good is Stafford, who isn't a fair comparison to Thigpen since he was just 21 years old while Thigpen was 24 years old.

I agree that Thigpen's a mobile QB who has a decent arm, and maybe he's shown some things in spurts. But still, overall, he's been pretty meh to me.

I like Y/A as a metric for QBs; I use it when discriminating between players;That said, Chase, if you're going to employ dynamic analyses in the macro sense, where you point out (rightly) that the modern era yields more passing numbers, then I think we should respect dynamic analysis on the micro level where Gailey morphed his offense because of a truly bad offensive line... that KGUN he employed had Thigpen in the shotgun constantly and would never never yielded a respectable Y/A; so, in this narrow instance of evaluating Thigpen, I think we can usefully suggest that the metric's product may be misleading

just my .02

 

[Our Gang]

The way I see it working out is that miami will want good. Value for thigpin. If miami doesn't get at least a 4 rounder then they keep all four. Pennington will start the season on the pup list. But will be in camp to mentor the other three. That gives Miami another training camp and preseason to assess the skills of white and thigpin

 

[Sweet Love]

I'll never understand the amount of disrespect that he gets. The guy has been solid WHEN he is healthy.

First off Pennington only plays well the first year he goes to a team, check the stats. This isn't the 80's anymore people where a Bernie Kosar type of QB can win for you in the NFL. Defenses are waay to fast for the weak-armed tossers. He's older, slower and for sure his arm is weaker. He's an insurance policy for the team in case White and Thigpen don't show anything in the preseason, to claim the #2 spot. I say Pennington will only make the team because White and Thigpen didn't show enough in camp and in the exhibition games, so in other words, Pennington ends up getting cut in early September.

The first year thing is just an odd thing to bring up as it doesn't mean or show anything. I am not sure where you are going there. Secondly, the guy has a 43-34 record with a 90.1 career rating with some fairly average teams. He is two years removed from a pretty impressive year so bringing up the 80s doesn't really fly. If you think that he has seriously declined since his most recent injury then I can see where you are coming from and time will tell but people talking about Pennington being horrible because they are so enamored with the big arm QBs is a bit ridiculous. There is always room in the NFL for intelligent accurate passers. I would take a Pennington over a Cutler any day.

Unless I am mistaken, Penny only played for two teams in the NFL (the one that drafted him and the Phins). Now if you want to say he only plays well when he comes back from a major injury and everyone has written him off, I am willing to listen. But then again, this would be an "up" year for him, no?

 

[SSOG]

The way I see it working out is that miami will want good. Value for thigpin. If miami doesn't get at least a 4 rounder then they keep all four. Pennington will start the season on the pup list. But will be in camp to mentor the other three. That gives Miami another training camp and preseason to assess the skills of white and thigpin

I don't get the whole "mentor role". The team already has a guy in the "mentor role". He's called the QB coach. If the NFL really thought that older QBs made better mentors than QB coaches, then the NFL would start hiring more older QBs as QB coaches.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

you have no clue, when you say Henne or Pennington are crappy QBs

Both would be starters in 3/4 of the league...

3/4s? You really mean that Henne and Pennington are both better than all but 8 starting QBs? Yeah, not so much. Henne's a legit starter, although a low-end one until he actually does anything. Pennington was a legit starter, but now he's had major season-ending injuries in 3 of the last 5 seasons, which means he's quality depth.

Pennington blows, sorry for being blunt. The guy can't stay healthy and can't throw deep....fine, he's good at play action passes and can hit the tight end down the middle for 15 yards.I like Henne, the last of the pro set QB's from Michigan. He's the guy they're going to build that offense around, probably keep White for another season and see what they can do with him and Thigpen is the odd guy out.

Again, board credibility sags when you post things like this. Pennington was hurt last season but he took a 1-15 team and turned them into 11-5 division champs the next year.

Fact is that Pennington's team has made the playoffs in every year that he has stayed healthy. Health has been his only downfall. Even his "weak" arm is grossly exaggerated and made into more of an issue than it is.