What should we do about illegal immigration? (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

My own views on this subject are pretty well known around here. I see no need to rehash them. They are, I acknowledge, extreme and unpopular. So let’s move beyond them. Obviously what’s going on now is not working great; I think we can at least all agree on that. So please consider these questions: 

1. What should we do, beyond what we are doing now, to secure the southern border? 
2. What should we do with those we catch attempting to come here without papers? 
3. What should we do with the millions of people without papers already here? 
4. What should we do with those in the DACA program? 
5. What should we do with the thousands coming to our border attempting to legally seek political asylum? 
6. What revamps should be made to our legal immigration system to relieve the issue of illegal immigration? 
7. Should employers who hire illegal immigrants be punished? If yes, how so? 
8. Should we address the economic destitution and climate change issues in Latin America which are contributing to illegal immigration? If yes, how so? 
9. Records indicate that the majority of illegal immigrants do not come to this country by crossing its borders, but instead simply overstay their visas. How should we address this problem? 
10. Among those who come here without papers, there is some evidence of child slavery, sexual abuse, drug trafficking, and other bad behavior. Those these do not occur regularly they DO occur. How should we address this? 
11. Although illegal immigration may be a net economic benefit to this nation (as demonstrated by many studies) it’s effects are not equal and most of the burdens for it are heavily centered on certain areas and regions: Arizona, New Mexico, Southern California, Texas. How should we address this? 
 

These are not easy questions, at least not for me and I spend a lot of time thinking about this issue. But I want to hear what others think. 

 

[matuski]

Dead horse from me over the years.

The way to control immigration has been demostrated, and utterly simple.

Politicians have more to gain by not solving it, and several industries and communities would crumble without illegal labor...so they won't do anything of substance, and will actively prevent the solution from happening.

 

[timschochet]

Dead horse from me over the years.

The way to control immigration has been demostrated, and utterly simple.

Politicians have more to gain by not solving it, and several industries and communities would crumble without illegal labor...so they won't do anything of substance, and will actively prevent it from happening..

If you’re correct that several industries and communities would crumble, would you be willing to stop it despite that? 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Dead horse from me over the years.

The way to control immigration has been demostrated, and utterly simple.

Politicians have more to gain by not solving it, and several industries and communities would crumble without illegal labor...so they won't do anything of substance, and will actively prevent the solution from happening.

I assume you're referring to the obvious solution of making legal immigration to the United States much, much easier.

If that's the case, I agree with the rest of your post

 

[matuski]

I assume you're referring to the obvious solution of making legal immigration to the United States much, much easier.

If that's the case, I agree with the rest of your post

It isn't anything to agree or disagree about.

It was demonstrated beyond a doubt.

 

[matuski]

If you’re correct that several industries and communities would crumble, would you be willing to stop it despite that? 

Yes, with a plan to rehire with legit employment data and income taxes collected.

Get them on record and contributing against the burdens you mention above.

 

[timschochet]

It isn't anything to agree or disagree about.

It was demonstrated beyond a doubt.

OK would you mind being more specific? 

 

[matuski]

OK would you mind being more specific? 

I have done this so many times.

My father was #2 at INS behind Doris Meissner for a while.  

Nebraska governor ran on a hardline anti-immigration/illegals are taking your jobs campaign and won.

He invited INS in.  Operation Vanguard.  INS subpoenae'd meatpacking plant's employee data and checked it against SSA.  Shocker tens of thousands of records show as fake or duplicate, etc. INS sets dates at a couple hundred plants to interview the flagged employees.  Hundreds of workers at each plant did not show up on those dates (even many that were not flagged) and didn't come back.

No workers at plants, plants shutdown.... unintended consequences follow.  The small towns depended on the plants for their own economies.

They didn't last long before the Governor suddenly uninvited INS, kicked them out.  Suddenly his winning platform was political suicide.

 

[bigbottom]

My own views on this subject are pretty well known around here. I see no need to rehash them. They are, I acknowledge, extreme and unpopular. So let’s move beyond them. Obviously what’s going on now is not working great; I think we can at least all agree on that. So please consider these questions: 

1. What should we do, beyond what we are doing now, to secure the southern border? 
2. What should we do with those we catch attempting to come here without papers? 
3. What should we do with the millions of people without papers already here? 
4. What should we do with those in the DACA program? 
5. What should we do with the thousands coming to our border attempting to legally seek political asylum? 
6. What revamps should be made to our legal immigration system to relieve the issue of illegal immigration? 
7. Should employers who hire illegal immigrants be punished? If yes, how so? 
8. Should we address the economic destitution and climate change issues in Latin America which are contributing to illegal immigration? If yes, how so? 
9. Records indicate that the majority of illegal immigrants do not come to this country by crossing its borders, but instead simply overstay their visas. How should we address this problem? 
10. Among those who come here without papers, there is some evidence of child slavery, sexual abuse, drug trafficking, and other bad behavior. Those these do not occur regularly they DO occur. How should we address this? 
11. Although illegal immigration may be a net economic benefit to this nation (as demonstrated by many studies) it’s effects are not equal and most of the burdens for it are heavily centered on certain areas and regions: Arizona, New Mexico, Southern California, Texas. How should we address this? 
 

These are not easy questions, at least not for me and I spend a lot of time thinking about this issue. But I want to hear what others think. 

I think this feels too much like a take home final. 

 

[matuski]

To continue, INS wanted to expand Vanguard after its wild success in Nebraska.

It was put on "hold".

 

[matuski]

Control hiring practices and you don't need a wall.  You can account for and tax workers.

Don't control hiring practices, and no wall will stop them.  Just an expensive symbol defeated by a ladder or shovel.

 

[timschochet]

I have done this so many times.

My father was #2 at INS behind Doris Meissner for a while.  

Nebraska governor ran on a hardline anti-immigration/illegals are taking your jobs campaign and won.

He invited INS in.  Operation Vanguard.  INS subpoenae'd meatpacking plant's employee data and checked it against SSA.  Shocker tens of thousands of records show as fake or duplicate, etc. INS sets dates at a couple hundred plants to interview the flagged employees.  Hundreds of workers at each plant did not show up on those dates (even many that were not flagged) and didn't come back.

No workers at plants, plants shutdown.... unintended consequences follow.  The small towns depended on the plants for their own economies.

They didn't last long before the Governor suddenly uninvited INS, kicked them out.  Suddenly his winning platform was political suicide.

Thank you. 
So if I understand you correctly, you would do this in every state despite the negative effects. 
 

Do you believe these tactics would cause the millions of Illegal immigrants already here to voluntarily leave the country? Isn’t it more likely that, without any income, they would simply resort more to crime? 
 

And if the cost of this is savaging local economies, higher prices, and more crime, can you see why many of us would reject such a “solution”? And why, despite your assertion, it’s not really all that simple? 

 

[timschochet]

I think this feels too much like a take home final. 

That’s because these are hard issues. Despite @matuski’s assertion, I don’t think there are any simple solutions. His own draconian solution of punishing the employers would, I believe, cause many more problems than it would resolve. (Which he basically admits.) 

 

[matuski]

Thank you. 
So if I understand you correctly, you would do this in every state despite the negative effects. 
 

Do you believe these tactics would cause the millions of Illegal immigrants already here to voluntarily leave the country? Isn’t it more likely that, without any income, they would simply resort more to crime? 
 

And if the cost of this is savaging local economies, higher prices, and more crime, can you see why many of us would reject such a “solution”? And why, despite your assertion, it’s not really all that simple? 

I gave you the counter for the negatives.

 

[The Commish]

Same as it ever was:

1.  Provide a path to citizenship for those here.
2.  Secure the borders by dumping more into manpower and technology on the policing front and update processes/technology at the border crossing sites to get people back and forth more efficiently.
3.  Put a lot more money into lawyers, judges and facilities for those at the border trying to gain access to process them as quickly as possible.
4.  How many do we allow in each year?  That would depend on a formula based on our current population, how many people we are adding/losing each year naturally and supplement the delta with immigrants.  This would require a good bit of research to understand what our optimal level of citizenship should be.

 

[sho nuff]

Same as it ever was:

1.  Provide a path to citizenship for those here.
2.  Secure the borders by dumping more into manpower and technology on the policing front and update processes/technology at the border crossing sites to get people back and forth more efficiently.
3.  Put a lot more money into lawyers, judges and facilities for those at the border trying to gain access to process them as quickly as possible.
4.  How many do we allow in each year?  That would depend on a formula based on our current population, how many people we are adding/losing each year naturally and supplement the delta with immigrants.  This would require a good bit of research to understand what our optimal level of citizenship should be.

A good start and close to my thoughts on the surface.

 

[timschochet]

Same as it ever was:

1.  Provide a path to citizenship for those here.
2.  Secure the borders by dumping more into manpower and technology on the policing front and update processes/technology at the border crossing sites to get people back and forth more efficiently.
3.  Put a lot more money into lawyers, judges and facilities for those at the border trying to gain access to process them as quickly as possible.
4.  How many do we allow in each year?  That would depend on a formula based on our current population, how many people we are adding/losing each year naturally and supplement the delta with immigrants.  This would require a good bit of research to understand what our optimal level of citizenship should be.

I would be willing to accept a solution like this. I believe most of those who are regarded as  progressive on this issue would. 
 

 

[Zow]

Same as it ever was:

1.  Provide a path to citizenship for those here.
2.  Secure the borders by dumping more into manpower and technology on the policing front and update processes/technology at the border crossing sites to get people back and forth more efficiently.
3.  Put a lot more money into lawyers, judges and facilities for those at the border trying to gain access to process them as quickly as possible.
4.  How many do we allow in each year?  That would depend on a formula based on our current population, how many people we are adding/losing each year naturally and supplement the delta with immigrants.  This would require a good bit of research to understand what our optimal level of citizenship should be.

I like it. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Spend way more money in foreign countries to make them more desirable. Our money goes much further in a place where obviously people are willing to work and materials are cheaper. 

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Immigration is hugely beneficial. We should increase the total number of immigrants we accept each year.

Ideally, if we had a magic wand, we should make the ratio of legal immigrants to illegal immigrants 100-0.

Reducing illegal immigration costs resources, however, and we should spend resources on it (as efficiently as possible) only up to the point where the marginal benefits are worth the marginal costs. I have no idea where that point is, or whether we're currently below it or above it.

The main benefit of reducing illegal immigration is that it allows us, for any given level of total immigration, to increase legal immigration. So a greater focus on reducing illegal immigration really should go hand-in-hand with increasing legal immigration.

 

[Zow]

Immigration is hugely beneficial. We should increase the total number of immigrants we accept each year.

Ideally, if we had a magic wand, we should make the ratio of legal immigrants to illegal immigrants 100-0.

Reducing illegal immigration costs resources, however, and we should spend resources on it (as efficiently as possible) only up to the point where the marginal benefits are worth the marginal costs. I have no idea where that point is, or whether we're currently below it or above it.

The main benefit of reducing illegal immigration is that it allows us, for any given level of total immigration, to increase legal immigration. So a greater focus on reducing illegal immigration really should go hand-in-hand with increasing legal immigration.

Sounds way too logical. 

 

[ekbeats]

1.  Provide a path to citizenship for those here.

I think that’s off the table now.  No way Republicans would sign off on that after Biden has facilitated illegal border crossings the way he has.

 

[Ruffrodys05]

What should we do? Make it legal.

 

[BladeRunner]

What should we do? Make it legal.

We already have process for legal immigration. 

 

[John123]

We already have process for legal immigration. 

We allow more legal immigration than any country on Earth. It gets tiring constantly hearing libs pretend otherwise. 

 

[timschochet]

I think that’s off the table now.  No way Republicans would sign off on that after Biden has facilitated illegal border crossings the way he has.

Because you’ve turned this into a right or wrong/ win or lose issue rather than “what’s best for the American people?” You’ll note that I’m not talking about what’s best for the illegals; I’m only discussing what’s best for us. 

Can you truly say that it’s best for us to leave these people already here as stateless, undocumented? If you truly think that’s to our advantage then fine. But I can’t believe you or anyone does, 

 

[John123]

Can you truly say that it’s best for us to leave these people already here as stateless, undocumented? If you truly think that’s to our advantage then fine. But I can’t believe you or anyone does, 

No, what's best for us is to make it very uncomfortable for illegals to be here so they voluntarily leave and go home.  Just like I would do if someone broke in to my house. 

 

[timschochet]

We allow more legal immigration than any country on Earth. It gets tiring constantly hearing libs pretend otherwise. 

Actually I was astonished to learn that this is false: Germany is #1, we have fallen to 2nd place. Pretty shameful IMO 

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/slideshows/10-countries-that-take-the-most-immigrants?slide=11

 

[sho nuff]

We allow more legal immigration than any country on Earth. It gets tiring constantly hearing libs pretend otherwise. 

And we can still do better.  And the previous administration worked to limit it even more…so conservatives claiming they are ok with legal immigration also seem to be pretending to while they supported such policies.

 

[timschochet]

No, what's best for us is to make it very uncomfortable for illegals to be here so they voluntarily leave and go home.  Just like I would do if someone broke in to my house. 

So two questions: 

1. There are over 15 million illegal immigrants currently living in the USA ( that’s an educated guess by most experts). Do you truly believe we can make them uncomfortable enough to leave? What exactly would that look like? 
 

2. Do you truly believe that if they all voluntarily left due to making them feel “uncomfortable”, that would be a benefit for us as a nation? How so? 

 

[John123]

And we can still do better.  And the previous administration worked to limit it even more…so conservatives claiming they are ok with legal immigration also seem to be pretending to while they supported such policies.

By this you mean we can allow more?  That's an opinion.  And it's a discussion worth having.  But not when we ALSO have an open border that allowed 1 million people to cross just since Biden took office. 

 

[timschochet]

By this you mean we can allow more?  That's an opinion.  And it's a discussion worth having.  But not when we ALSO have an open border that allowed 1 million people to cross just since Biden took office. 

I think it’s best to use accurate terms. We do not have an open border. We have a closed border which is porous in parts because we as a society have chosen not to secure it to the extent necessary to make it not porous. But it’s not “open”. 

 

[sho nuff]

By this you mean we can allow more?  That's an opinion.  And it's a discussion worth having.  But not when we ALSO have an open border that allowed 1 million people to cross just since Biden took office. 

Sure…just as claiming we allow enough is an opinion. 
Im not going to argue the semantics of if its open or not..and as Ive said elsewhere I will not defend the Biden administration’s handling of the border.  As you see above I agreed with Commish who talked about securing things in a good way IMO

 

[John123]

So two questions: 

1. There are over 15 million illegal immigrants currently living in the USA ( that’s an educated guess by most experts). Do you truly believe we can make them uncomfortable enough to leave? What exactly would that look like? 
 

2. Do you truly believe that if they all voluntarily left due to making them feel “uncomfortable”, that would be a benefit for us as a nation? How so? 

1)  Yes, for a good majority.  It would look similar to them coming here but they would be walking the opposite direction.

2)  Yes.  Then, if we needed foreign workers, we could bring back the actual number needed, on an actual visa, and actual vet those people to ensure they're healthy and not a security threat to people in the U.S.. 

I would just like it if the Feds actually performed one of their few specifically enumerated constitutional responsibilities.

 

[timschochet]

1)  Yes, for a good majority.  It would look similar to them coming here but they would be walking the opposite direction.

2)  Yes.  Then, if we needed foreign workers, we could bring back the actual number needed, on an actual visa, and actual vet those people to ensure they're healthy and not a security threat to people in the U.S.. 

I would just like it if the Feds actually performed one of their few specifically enumerated constitutional responsibilities.

I honestly can’t picture what making millions of people uncomfortable enough so that “they would be walking the opposite direction” would look like. I imagine it would be extremely ugly and I strongly doubt most Americans, even the ones who feel the most strongly about this issue, would be willing to stomach it. 

In any case thanks for your opinion but I don’t believe that your proposed solutions are practical. 

 

[The Commish]

I think that’s off the table now.  No way Republicans would sign off on that after Biden has facilitated illegal border crossings the way he has.

Has nothing to do with Biden. Has everything to do with making sure the issue continues....both sides want it to exist. Neither is interested in fixing it in any meaningful way. 

 

[Van Dyman]

I’m not talking about what’s best for the illegals; I’m only discussing what’s best for us. 

Yes. More of this. The bickering about why a political party will or won't do this or that is redundantly covered in many threads. The real conversation about what's best for us is good and hopefully this thread can stick to that.

 

[timschochet]

Yes. More of this. The bickering about why a political party will or won't do this or that is redundantly covered in many threads. The real conversation about what's best for us is good and hopefully this thread can stick to that.

Right. But there appears to be some people here who honestly believe, in their heart of hearts, that it would be a good thing for us to make life so intolerable for millions of people that they will choose to leave this country, which will also be a good thing for us. I can’t understand that kind of thinking. 

 

[matuski]

Immigration is hugely beneficial. We should increase the total number of immigrants we accept each year.

Ideally, if we had a magic wand, we should make the ratio of legal immigrants to illegal immigrants 100-0.

Reducing illegal immigration costs resources, however, and we should spend resources on it (as efficiently as possible) only up to the point where the marginal benefits are worth the marginal costs. I have no idea where that point is, or whether we're currently below it or above it.

The main benefit of reducing illegal immigration is that it allows us, for any given level of total immigration, to increase legal immigration. So a greater focus on reducing illegal immigration really should go hand-in-hand with increasing legal immigration.

Reducing illegal immigration comes down to controlling the hiring process.  Operation vanguard did this in Nebraska for under $500k.  A near 0 on "resources".

Stop companies and industries from hiring illegals, make a path for those those workers to be legal, tax paying members... poof - your magic wand.

 

[Van Dyman]

Reducing illegal immigration comes down to controlling the hiring process.  Operation vanguard did this in Nebraska for under $500k.  A near 0 on "resources".

Stop companies and industries from hiring illegals, make a path for those those workers to be legal, tax paying members... poof - your magic wand.

I thought something like E-verify was supposed to address this from the hiring side, but I guess that's not working or maybe it's optional or has some other holes. Dunno.

 

[unckeyherb]

Same as it ever was:

1.  Provide a path to citizenship for those here.
2.  Secure the borders by dumping more into manpower and technology on the policing front and update processes/technology at the border crossing sites to get people back and forth more efficiently.
3.  Put a lot more money into lawyers, judges and facilities for those at the border trying to gain access to process them as quickly as possible.
4.  How many do we allow in each year?  That would depend on a formula based on our current population, how many people we are adding/losing each year naturally and supplement the delta with immigrants.  This would require a good bit of research to understand what our optimal level of citizenship should be.

Yep this generally all makes sense to me.  I’d add, a probably unpopular point amongst most who have posted so far, but Stay in Mexico-as a short term solution until some of the above has started-would be a necessity in my mind.  
it’s not a long term solution, but we have to stop the flow of illegals coming across daily (saw an estimate that we’re at +\- 18000 per day THAT WE KNOW ABOUT).  It’s insane.  

 

[timschochet]

Reducing illegal immigration comes down to controlling the hiring process.  Operation vanguard did this in Nebraska for under $500k.  A near 0 on "resources".

Stop companies and industries from hiring illegals, make a path for those those workers to be legal, tax paying members... poof - your magic wand.

Again- even attempting to do this would severely disrupt industry. If some nationwide it will cause millions of people to go out of work with nobody to replace them. Assuming that they will simply leave the country is a pipe dream. 
Not to mention that it would have a terrible effect on inflation. Unless you’re simply expecting these companies to pay legal wages without passing the extra costs to consumers? 
 

Putting aside the positives or negatives of your plan, I really believe it’s unworkable. Which is probably why Nebraska didn’t do it for very long. 

 

[timschochet]

Yep this generally all makes sense to me.  I’d add, a probably unpopular point amongst most who have posted so far, but Stay in Mexico-as a short term solution until some of the above has started-would be a necessity in my mind.  
it’s not a long term solution, but we have to stop the flow of illegals coming across daily (saw an estimate that we’re at +\- 18000 per day THAT WE KNOW ABOUT).  It’s insane.  

I don’t like it at all but I’m not going to complain about it much if it’s part of a long term solution. But if it’s not then it’s untenable. 

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

Again- even attempting to do this would severely disrupt industry. If some nationwide it will cause millions of people to go out of work with nobody to replace them. Assuming that they will simply leave the country is a pipe dream. 
Not to mention that it would have a terrible effect on inflation. Unless you’re simply expecting these companies to pay legal wages without passing the extra costs to consumers? 
 

Putting aside the positives or negatives of your plan, I really believe it’s unworkable. Which is probably why Nebraska didn’t do it for very long. 

So you just want to keep paying illegals under the table cheating the government to keep your own costs down?  Neat

 

[ekbeats]

Because you’ve turned this into a right or wrong/ win or lose issue rather than “what’s best for the American people?” You’ll note that I’m not talking about what’s best for the illegals; I’m only discussing what’s best for us. 

Can you truly say that it’s best for us to leave these people already here as stateless, undocumented? If you truly think that’s to our advantage then fine. But I can’t believe you or anyone does, 

You know how right or wrong is implemented in a society?  Enforcement of laws.  You seem to think it’s ok to follow certain laws and not others.  That’s not how it works.

And no, I don’t think it’s in the best interests of the American people to bypass the laws, let in 2M illegal immigrants, and then grant them citizenship so they can vote Democrat.

 

[timschochet]

So you just want to keep paying illegals under the table cheating the government to keep your own costs down?  Neat

Sure. It allows me to keep rents and common area charges low. That in turn allows the businesses I rent to keep their prices down. And the government gets it all back, and more, in sales tax anyhow. 
Ita a convoluted system for sure and I don’t love breaking the law. But if you attempt to “fix” this you’re going to destroy lots of local economies. 

 

[timschochet]

You know how right or wrong is implemented in a society?  Enforcement of laws.  You seem to think it’s ok to follow certain laws and not others.  That’s not how it works.

And no, I don’t think it’s in the best interests of the American people to bypass the laws, let in 2M illegal immigrants, and then grant them citizenship so they can vote Democrat.

There are 15 million illegal immigrants already here. We can argue all day whether it was good for them to come here, whether we should have enforced our laws better. It doesn’t matter. The reality is they’re here, and they do serve a role in our economy: So what’s to be done with them? 

 

[timschochet]

it’s ok to follow certain laws and not others.  That’s not how it works.

Do you obey every law all the time? If the speed limit is 55 mph are you careful never to go over? Never jaywalk? Do you pull permits for every home improvement? 

 

[FairWarning]

Same as it ever was:

1.  Provide a path to citizenship for those here.
2.  Secure the borders by dumping more into manpower and technology on the policing front and update processes/technology at the border crossing sites to get people back and forth more efficiently.
3.  Put a lot more money into lawyers, judges and facilities for those at the border trying to gain access to process them as quickly as possible.
4.  How many do we allow in each year?  That would depend on a formula based on our current population, how many people we are adding/losing each year naturally and supplement the delta with immigrants.  This would require a good bit of research to understand what our optimal level of citizenship should be.

To the last point, the census would be a good starting point.  

Question 7 of Tim’s - I would double the taxes of the undocumented taxes and SS that were not deducted.

 

[The Commish]

To the last point, the census would be a good starting point.  

Question 7 of Tim’s - I would double the taxes of the undocumented taxes and SS that were not deducted.

Similar concept, but id want data refreshes each year