What's the most important trait for a WR? (1 Viewer)

[gianmarco]

I know there are different types of WR's in the league: Deep threats, slot guys, possession guys, RAC guys, etc. and each has certain characteristics.

But, if you're watching a WR, would you lean toward getting a guy with good route running that gets good separation but doesn't always catch well or would you rather have a guy that doesn't always get open but will catch just about anything thrown to him. Why?

 

[Callas Disregard]

C. Targets

 

[Reaper]

Balls

.. yeah, or targets

 

[DoubleG]

Two things (one of which you left off the list):

Speed and Height. Both = TDs (usually)

I don't play in any PPR leagues, so TDs are usually more important than receptions. A guy who has only two catches for 64 yards, but one is a 48 yard TD play, scores 12 in most non-PPR scoring formats. I'll take that over the guy who has 7 catches for 84 yards (i.e. only 8 points). Height is the same thing - he gets end zone looks on jump ball-type plays. I'll take the easy 6 all day and twice on...well, Sunday.

 

[gianmarco]

C. Targets

I'm not talking about in trying to pick a WR for fantasy football. I'm talking about in evaluating talent. If you're going to pick a guy coming out of college, before he lands on a team, would you rather have a guy that is a physical specimen with speed but doesn't catch well or would you rather have a player that catches everything but doesn't necessarily have the physical traits to always create separation.

 

[abe froman]

C. Targets

period

 

[FavreCo]

Hands. Without hands you cannot have consistently high targets. You can teach route running. You cannot teach hands.

 

[netnalp]

I look for a guy that has caught about 2/3rds of his targets and his targets and receptions have increased each year by at least 20. Then I consider what has changed where he should get more targets. Anthony Gonzalez fits this pretty well and is what people are looking for when they talk about the 3rd year WR theory.

 

[nlgb1]

hands catching. its what seperates great ones from everyone else

 

[BuckeyeArt]

I chose 'hands' but I also look for size as well. With size, they can usually get separation.

 

[Keith1]

Hands. Without hands you cannot have consistently high targets. You can teach route running. You cannot teach hands.

I thought this was some sort of trick question at first. Of course it would be hands/reliability. If the guy can't catch the ball, who cares how wide open he gets ???

 

[trogg78]

Blocking.

 

[Banger]

It can't be all one trait without the other but I definitely target WR's with speed/separation over hands/reliability. Give me the game changer over the chain mover all day long.

 

[jurb26]

It can't be all one trait without the other but I definitely target WR's with speed/separation over hands/reliability. Give me the game changer over the chain mover all day long.

I voted for speed/separation as well, but for a slightly different reason. The bottom line is that most guys who are going to get drafted can catch the ball fairly well. On top of that, catching the ball is about as easy a thing as there is to evaluate in a prospect IMO. For that reason I care far more about guys who can create separation. Creating separation at the NFL level is the most difficult aspect to build IMO. Most college DBs are pathetic at jamming at the line and most college coaches won't even allow them to do it. On top of that, NFL DBs and CBs study the WRs they are covering far more. People are trying to claim that a guy who gets open but can't catch is useless. Well, so is a guy who can't get open in the 1st place. I'd rather have a guy who can get open 8 out of 10 times an maybe only make 4 catches than a guy who gets open 4 out of 10 times and makes 3 catches.

 

[Banger]

It can't be all one trait without the other but I definitely target WR's with speed/separation over hands/reliability. Give me the game changer over the chain mover all day long.

I voted for speed/separation as well, but for a slightly different reason. The bottom line is that most guys who are going to get drafted can catch the ball fairly well. On top of that, catching the ball is about as easy a thing as there is to evaluate in a prospect IMO. For that reason I care far more about guys who can create separation. Creating separation at the NFL level is the most difficult aspect to build IMO. Most college DBs are pathetic at jamming at the line and most college coaches won't even allow them to do it. On top of that, NFL DBs and CBs study the WRs they are covering far more. People are trying to claim that a guy who gets open but can't catch is useless. Well, so is a guy who can't get open in the 1st place. I'd rather have a guy who can get open 8 out of 10 times an maybe only make 4 catches than a guy who gets open 4 out of 10 times and makes 3 catches.

Agreed. Separation/speed creates pressure on the defense, causes double teams and changes the way teams defend which gives advantages to the offense in other areas. The Wayne Chrebets are nice and they make important NFL plays but they don't disrupt or change the game nearly as much as speed does. That's why 40 times are so important to NFL teams. Yes hands count and are important but if you are slow and can't separate it doesn't matter much.You basically described B. Edwards and if he were a FA there would be a dozen teams lining up to give him a huge contract.

 

[EBF]

No one single thing.

- Burst

- Fluid stride

- Well-proportioned frame

- Coordination

There's an "it" quality to guys like Chad Johnson, Eddie Royal, Percy Harvin, Anquan Boldin, Santonio Holmes, and Dez Bryant that you don't see in most bottom tier NFL wideouts. They move very fluidly and they have exceptional hand-eye coordination/body control. It's hard to put into words, but I usually know it when I see it.

 

[Gr00vus]

1) Separation - could be for a variety of reasons (speed, height, strength, whatever)

2) Hands - separation is useless if you can't catch most of the balls that you can actually get to

Ideally both.

 

[Angrymutt]

Starting

 

[gianmarco]

It's hard to put into words

I know. It's easier to put into letters.BMI

 

[stevegamer]

It can't be all one trait without the other but I definitely target WR's with speed/separation over hands/reliability. Give me the game changer over the chain mover all day long.

I voted for speed/separation as well, but for a slightly different reason. The bottom line is that most guys who are going to get drafted can catch the ball fairly well. On top of that, catching the ball is about as easy a thing as there is to evaluate in a prospect IMO. For that reason I care far more about guys who can create separation. Creating separation at the NFL level is the most difficult aspect to build IMO. Most college DBs are pathetic at jamming at the line and most college coaches won't even allow them to do it. On top of that, NFL DBs and CBs study the WRs they are covering far more. People are trying to claim that a guy who gets open but can't catch is useless. Well, so is a guy who can't get open in the 1st place. I'd rather have a guy who can get open 8 out of 10 times an maybe only make 4 catches than a guy who gets open 4 out of 10 times and makes 3 catches.

I disagree with the bolded. We see lots of failed prospects who frankly, simply aren't good enough at catching the ball, yet they get drafted. Speed is actually "easy" to evaluate - have them run a 40. It's the way most people evaluate speed. Catching shouldn't too hard to evaluate, but I do think the love of 40 times causes teams to draft guys who aren't good WR prospects high, they are just fast. Of course that doesn't necessarily translate to game speed, but a team with the ability to watch guys run sprints in pads could pretty well judge speed in pads.

Also separation doesn't necessarily come from speed. A couple examples of slow players who could seperate due to route running, and are tough reliable catchers are Anquan Boldin & Steve Largent. Those guys weren't simply "not fast" but were regarded as slow; Largent was considered small as well.

 

[pantherclub]

Being mean like Michael Irvin, TO and Dwayne Bowe. Guys who think it is there right to catch that ball and anyone getting in the way is going to get blasted.

 

[jurb26]

It can't be all one trait without the other but I definitely target WR's with speed/separation over hands/reliability. Give me the game changer over the chain mover all day long.

I voted for speed/separation as well, but for a slightly different reason. The bottom line is that most guys who are going to get drafted can catch the ball fairly well. On top of that, catching the ball is about as easy a thing as there is to evaluate in a prospect IMO. For that reason I care far more about guys who can create separation. Creating separation at the NFL level is the most difficult aspect to build IMO. Most college DBs are pathetic at jamming at the line and most college coaches won't even allow them to do it. On top of that, NFL DBs and CBs study the WRs they are covering far more. People are trying to claim that a guy who gets open but can't catch is useless. Well, so is a guy who can't get open in the 1st place. I'd rather have a guy who can get open 8 out of 10 times an maybe only make 4 catches than a guy who gets open 4 out of 10 times and makes 3 catches.

I disagree with the bolded. We see lots of failed prospects who frankly, simply aren't good enough at catching the ball, yet they get drafted. Speed is actually "easy" to evaluate - have them run a 40. It's the way most people evaluate speed. Catching shouldn't too hard to evaluate, but I do think the love of 40 times causes teams to draft guys who aren't good WR prospects high, they are just fast. Of course that doesn't necessarily translate to game speed, but a team with the ability to watch guys run sprints in pads could pretty well judge speed in pads.

Also separation doesn't necessarily come from speed. A couple examples of slow players who could seperate due to route running, and are tough reliable catchers are Anquan Boldin & Steve Largent. Those guys weren't simply "not fast" but were regarded as slow; Largent was considered small as well.

I'm not really sure what this is intended to mean, but I'd disagree. Who exactly composes this list of "lots of failed prospects" who can't catch?FWIW, lots of guys who looked like they could catch just fine in college suddenly couldn't catch as well in the NFL because... they weren't as open. It's tougher to catch with bodies around you.

 

[MaddHatter]

5 traits bundled into 2 options?

No intelligence option?

 

[Philo]

Balls

Where did you draft Visanthe Shiancoe?

 

[EBF]

It can't be all one trait without the other but I definitely target WR's with speed/separation over hands/reliability. Give me the game changer over the chain mover all day long.

I voted for speed/separation as well, but for a slightly different reason. The bottom line is that most guys who are going to get drafted can catch the ball fairly well. On top of that, catching the ball is about as easy a thing as there is to evaluate in a prospect IMO. For that reason I care far more about guys who can create separation. Creating separation at the NFL level is the most difficult aspect to build IMO. Most college DBs are pathetic at jamming at the line and most college coaches won't even allow them to do it. On top of that, NFL DBs and CBs study the WRs they are covering far more. People are trying to claim that a guy who gets open but can't catch is useless. Well, so is a guy who can't get open in the 1st place. I'd rather have a guy who can get open 8 out of 10 times an maybe only make 4 catches than a guy who gets open 4 out of 10 times and makes 3 catches.

I disagree with the bolded. We see lots of failed prospects who frankly, simply aren't good enough at catching the ball, yet they get drafted. Speed is actually "easy" to evaluate - have them run a 40. It's the way most people evaluate speed. Catching shouldn't too hard to evaluate, but I do think the love of 40 times causes teams to draft guys who aren't good WR prospects high, they are just fast. Of course that doesn't necessarily translate to game speed, but a team with the ability to watch guys run sprints in pads could pretty well judge speed in pads.

Also separation doesn't necessarily come from speed. A couple examples of slow players who could seperate due to route running, and are tough reliable catchers are Anquan Boldin & Steve Largent. Those guys weren't simply "not fast" but were regarded as slow; Largent was considered small as well.

I'm not really sure what this is intended to mean, but I'd disagree. Who exactly composes this list of "lots of failed prospects" who can't catch?FWIW, lots of guys who looked like they could catch just fine in college suddenly couldn't catch as well in the NFL because... they weren't as open. It's tougher to catch with bodies around you.

I think there are definitely some guys who have the physical traits to be successful, but lack the hands and instincts. Quincy Morgan is a great example. He was a physical specimen. Big, fast, quick, and explosive. He never had any trouble getting open. He simply couldn't catch the football.Koren Robinson is another guy who fits this mold. There are some people who have trouble catching the football consistently no matter how hard they practice. The draft process usually weeds them out, but there are always a few who slip through the cracks because of their "upside" and "potential." Personally, I'm leery of all WR prospects with spotty hands. I think it's a hard flaw to overcome.

 

[jurb26]

It can't be all one trait without the other but I definitely target WR's with speed/separation over hands/reliability. Give me the game changer over the chain mover all day long.

I voted for speed/separation as well, but for a slightly different reason. The bottom line is that most guys who are going to get drafted can catch the ball fairly well. On top of that, catching the ball is about as easy a thing as there is to evaluate in a prospect IMO. For that reason I care far more about guys who can create separation. Creating separation at the NFL level is the most difficult aspect to build IMO. Most college DBs are pathetic at jamming at the line and most college coaches won't even allow them to do it. On top of that, NFL DBs and CBs study the WRs they are covering far more. People are trying to claim that a guy who gets open but can't catch is useless. Well, so is a guy who can't get open in the 1st place. I'd rather have a guy who can get open 8 out of 10 times an maybe only make 4 catches than a guy who gets open 4 out of 10 times and makes 3 catches.

I disagree with the bolded. We see lots of failed prospects who frankly, simply aren't good enough at catching the ball, yet they get drafted. Speed is actually "easy" to evaluate - have them run a 40. It's the way most people evaluate speed. Catching shouldn't too hard to evaluate, but I do think the love of 40 times causes teams to draft guys who aren't good WR prospects high, they are just fast. Of course that doesn't necessarily translate to game speed, but a team with the ability to watch guys run sprints in pads could pretty well judge speed in pads.

Also separation doesn't necessarily come from speed. A couple examples of slow players who could seperate due to route running, and are tough reliable catchers are Anquan Boldin & Steve Largent. Those guys weren't simply "not fast" but were regarded as slow; Largent was considered small as well.

I'm not really sure what this is intended to mean, but I'd disagree. Who exactly composes this list of "lots of failed prospects" who can't catch?FWIW, lots of guys who looked like they could catch just fine in college suddenly couldn't catch as well in the NFL because... they weren't as open. It's tougher to catch with bodies around you.

I think there are definitely some guys who have the physical traits to be successful, but lack the hands and instincts. Quincy Morgan is a great example. He was a physical specimen. Big, fast, quick, and explosive. He simply couldn't catch the football.Koren Robinson is another guy who fits this mold. There are some people who have trouble catching the football consistently no matter how hard they practice. The draft process usually weeds them out, but there are always a few who slip through the cracks because of their "upside" and "potential." Personally, I'm leery of all WR prospects with spotty hands. I think it's a hard flaw to overcome.

I agree there are some. Just not that there are many.FWIW, I don't think Robinson is one that would qualify. He had sever addiction problems and was an alcoholic. I think that had far more to do with his fall from grace than not catching the ball well. As a matter of fact he caught the ball very well until both the above things happened IIRC.

 

[MarcO]

1) Separation - could be for a variety of reasons (speed, height, strength, whatever)

2) Hands - separation is useless if you can't catch most of the balls that you can actually get to

Ideally both.

bingo. I'd add route running, reading the defense, smarts to your list but overall it's just separation.

 

[Prof. Chaos]

League scoring.

 

[awesomeness]

Hands by a mile.

Essentially all stud WRs attack the ball with their hands instead of letting it come to them. If a WR doesn't have that trait (Darrius Heyward-Bey is a recent example) i don't touch them.

 

[TheWheel]

It is a false dilemma. You want both. If a guy can't get open it doesn't matter how good his hands are and a guy can get open as much as possible and then drops everything it doesn't matter. In any case, I'll take size, speed, and a work ethic and just teach the guy how to catch and how to run routes.

 

[TenTimes]

I like a guy who can win a jump ball. If the guy is like 6'3 or taller and can jump he will catch my eye.

 

[strong]

people talking about hands over route running/separation/speed make it sound like it's one or the other.

it's not. the question is which is more important.

i'd much rather see my team select a receiver with amazing route running/separation/speed and average hands/reliability than a receiver with amazing hands/reliability and average route running/separation/speed.

how many good receivers with amazing hands and average route running/speed/separation can you name? all the good receivers with amazing hands receivers i can think of generally had above average route running abilities, even if they weren't good deep threats.

on the other hand, there's a laundry list of good receivers with amazing route running/speed/separation with average hands.

 

[awesomeness]

people talking about hands over route running/separation/speed make it sound like it's one or the other.

it's not. the question is which is more important.

i'd much rather see my team select a receiver with amazing route running/separation/speed and average hands/reliability than a receiver with amazing hands/reliability and average route running/separation/speed.

how many good receivers with amazing hands and average route running/speed/separation can you name? all the good receivers with amazing hands receivers i can think of generally had above average route running abilities, even if they weren't good deep threats.

on the other hand, there's a laundry list of good receivers with amazing route running/speed/separation with average hands.

To name a few:Larry Fitzgerald

Anquan Boldin

Brandon Marshall

Wes Welker

Marques Colston

Antonio Bryant

Who are the players on the laundry list who you consider to be amazing route running/speed/seperation with average hands guys?

The one guy that comes to mind is Terrell Owens. All the studs who don't fit into either of these categories (like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, etc.) have both elite speed/seperation/route running as well as very good hands, imo.

 

[FUBAR]

Who are the players on the laundry list who you consider to be amazing route running/speed/seperation with average hands guys? The one guy that comes to mind is Terrell Owens. All the studs who don't fit into either of these categories (like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, etc.) have both elite speed/seperation/route running as well as very good hands, imo.

not sure he's "amazing" but Braylon Edwards comes to mind.

 

[jurb26]

people talking about hands over route running/separation/speed make it sound like it's one or the other.

it's not. the question is which is more important.

i'd much rather see my team select a receiver with amazing route running/separation/speed and average hands/reliability than a receiver with amazing hands/reliability and average route running/separation/speed.

how many good receivers with amazing hands and average route running/speed/separation can you name? all the good receivers with amazing hands receivers i can think of generally had above average route running abilities, even if they weren't good deep threats.

on the other hand, there's a laundry list of good receivers with amazing route running/speed/separation with average hands.

To name a few:Larry Fitzgerald

Anquan Boldin

Brandon Marshall

Wes Welker

Marques Colston

Antonio Bryant

Who are the players on the laundry list who you consider to be amazing route running/speed/seperation with average hands guys?

The one guy that comes to mind is Terrell Owens. All the studs who don't fit into either of these categories (like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, etc.) have both elite speed/seperation/route running as well as very good hands, imo.

I began to take the time and give some detailed thoughts on every player on that list but stopped before getting half way through. This is an awful list to make your point. Every guy on this list runs great routes and almost all of them have elite physical ability. This is a list of guys who do BOTH of the OP's options extremely well and at least 4 of those guys are top 20 players at their position in the entire NFL. Fitz and Boldin are probably top 10.The only guy on this list that remotely fits the criteria you are describing is Welker. Welker is a fantastic route runner with exceptional quickness though.

 

[5-ish Finkle]

Body Control

Hands

Speed

Whoever has the best mix of the 3.

Great body control lets you do stuff you wouldn't necessarily be able to do otherwise(e.g. stop/start like a much smaller dude if you're a big guy, beat doubles if you're a small guy, use positioning and quickness to get separation if you aren't super fast, keep yourself in bounds when necessary, be under control on jump/poorly thrown balls, etc etc). Great hands obviously keep you employed. Great speed gives you a chance to bury guys if they bite on a move/fake/whatever.

Everything else can be taught.

 

[King of the Jungle]

Didn't read all posts so I am sure it has been said to some degree:

1) Hands/Concentration. These are directly correlated. Must be able to look the ball in and use your hands (not your body) to catch the ball.

2) Athleticism. You combine concentration and athleticism and you have a guy who has the opportunity to make difficult catches. Being able to catch passes that are off target or in a spot where the body has to be contorted can separate a good receiver from a great receiver. Larry Fitzgerald is a wonderful example.

3) Route Running/Work Ethic. Jerry Rice was open a lot during his career. It was not elite speed that allowed this. The drive to go to work and be better than yesterday can transform a man with above average physical traits (but not elite) into the greatest receiver of all time.

Those are my top three.

 

[CravenM]

I think hands/reliability (giving the choices) for the primary reason that the QB will keep throwing to a receiver (WR/TE/RB) if he's in the right position, catches the ball and advances the offense with excellent fundamentals.

 

[IHEARTFF]

Didn't read all posts so I am sure it has been said to some degree:1) Hands/Concentration. These are directly correlated. Must be able to look the ball in and use your hands (not your body) to catch the ball.2) Athleticism. You combine concentration and athleticism and you have a guy who has the opportunity to make difficult catches. Being able to catch passes that are off target or in a spot where the body has to be contorted can separate a good receiver from a great receiver. Larry Fitzgerald is a wonderful example.3) Route Running/Work Ethic. Jerry Rice was open a lot during his career. It was not elite speed that allowed this. The drive to go to work and be better than yesterday can transform a man with above average physical traits (but not elite) into the greatest receiver of all time.Those are my top three.

By your assertion, shouldn't route running (seperation) be #1 since it was what made Rice (not elite athleticism) into the best receiver ever?

 

[stevegamer]

people talking about hands over route running/separation/speed make it sound like it's one or the other.

it's not. the question is which is more important.

i'd much rather see my team select a receiver with amazing route running/separation/speed and average hands/reliability than a receiver with amazing hands/reliability and average route running/separation/speed.

how many good receivers with amazing hands and average route running/speed/separation can you name? all the good receivers with amazing hands receivers i can think of generally had above average route running abilities, even if they weren't good deep threats.

on the other hand, there's a laundry list of good receivers with amazing route running/speed/separation with average hands.

To name a few:Larry Fitzgerald

Anquan Boldin

Brandon Marshall

Wes Welker

Marques Colston

Antonio Bryant

Who are the players on the laundry list who you consider to be amazing route running/speed/seperation with average hands guys?

The one guy that comes to mind is Terrell Owens. All the studs who don't fit into either of these categories (like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, etc.) have both elite speed/seperation/route running as well as very good hands, imo.

The list above has a problem - and it's the same one as the poll. Speed <> route running. They are essentially two different ways to get open, and some of the guys above have elite route running & separation kills, just not from speed.

 

[awesomeness]

people talking about hands over route running/separation/speed make it sound like it's one or the other.

it's not. the question is which is more important.

i'd much rather see my team select a receiver with amazing route running/separation/speed and average hands/reliability than a receiver with amazing hands/reliability and average route running/separation/speed.

how many good receivers with amazing hands and average route running/speed/separation can you name? all the good receivers with amazing hands receivers i can think of generally had above average route running abilities, even if they weren't good deep threats.

on the other hand, there's a laundry list of good receivers with amazing route running/speed/separation with average hands.

To name a few:Larry Fitzgerald

Anquan Boldin

Brandon Marshall

Wes Welker

Marques Colston

Antonio Bryant

Who are the players on the laundry list who you consider to be amazing route running/speed/seperation with average hands guys?

The one guy that comes to mind is Terrell Owens. All the studs who don't fit into either of these categories (like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, etc.) have both elite speed/seperation/route running as well as very good hands, imo.

The list above has a problem - and it's the same one as the poll. Speed <> route running. They are essentially two different ways to get open, and some of the guys above have elite route running & separation kills, just not from speed.

i agree with this. I was just using his faulty criteria to prove a point.

 

[BobbyLayne]

As others have alluded to, the groupings in the two poll options are a bit contrived.

Achieving separation is not an overlap with speed. I suppose by hands/reliability the OP meant the guy catches the balls he should.

But if this were a four or five option poll, I would have to go with route running. In the game as it is played today, QBs and WRs have to make the same reads, and the ball is often released well ahead of the final cut. That pass is going to a specific spot on the field - break the wrong way, and it can easily be a pick six, and the average fan sitting at home is screaming at his LCD "WTF is wrong with our QB, there was nobody there!!"

Go through the top 12 WRs in the NFL and you will find that virtually every one of those guys is a superior route runner. That skill is why it often takes guys 3-4 years to mature at the position. Its why a talented guy who never gets it down might make big plays but won't be a complete WR (Chris Henry). Its why a young guy can have an immediate impact (Eddie Royal).

You need a lot of skills to be a good receiver, but running crisp routes (while achieving separation) is the one fundamental that sets the elite guys apart.

 

[strong]

people talking about hands over route running/separation/speed make it sound like it's one or the other.

it's not. the question is which is more important.

i'd much rather see my team select a receiver with amazing route running/separation/speed and average hands/reliability than a receiver with amazing hands/reliability and average route running/separation/speed.

how many good receivers with amazing hands and average route running/speed/separation can you name? all the good receivers with amazing hands receivers i can think of generally had above average route running abilities, even if they weren't good deep threats.

on the other hand, there's a laundry list of good receivers with amazing route running/speed/separation with average hands.

To name a few:Larry Fitzgerald

Anquan Boldin

Brandon Marshall

Wes Welker

Marques Colston

Antonio Bryant

Who are the players on the laundry list who you consider to be amazing route running/speed/seperation with average hands guys?

The one guy that comes to mind is Terrell Owens. All the studs who don't fit into either of these categories (like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, etc.) have both elite speed/seperation/route running as well as very good hands, imo.

I began to take the time and give some detailed thoughts on every player on that list but stopped before getting half way through. This is an awful list to make your point. Every guy on this list runs great routes and almost all of them have elite physical ability. This is a list of guys who do BOTH of the OP's options extremely well and at least 4 of those guys are top 20 players at their position in the entire NFL. Fitz and Boldin are probably top 10.The only guy on this list that remotely fits the criteria you are describing is Welker. Welker is a fantastic route runner with exceptional quickness though.

exactly. none of the guys you listed are average at route running, speed, and separation.

 

[strong]

people talking about hands over route running/separation/speed make it sound like it's one or the other.

it's not. the question is which is more important.

i'd much rather see my team select a receiver with amazing route running/separation/speed and average hands/reliability than a receiver with amazing hands/reliability and average route running/separation/speed.

how many good receivers with amazing hands and average route running/speed/separation can you name? all the good receivers with amazing hands receivers i can think of generally had above average route running abilities, even if they weren't good deep threats.

on the other hand, there's a laundry list of good receivers with amazing route running/speed/separation with average hands.

To name a few:Larry Fitzgerald

Anquan Boldin

Brandon Marshall

Wes Welker

Marques Colston

Antonio Bryant

Who are the players on the laundry list who you consider to be amazing route running/speed/seperation with average hands guys?

The one guy that comes to mind is Terrell Owens. All the studs who don't fit into either of these categories (like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, etc.) have both elite speed/seperation/route running as well as very good hands, imo.

The list above has a problem - and it's the same one as the poll. Speed <> route running. They are essentially two different ways to get open, and some of the guys above have elite route running & separation kills, just not from speed.

i agree with this. I was just using his faulty criteria to prove a point.

who's faulty criteria? i agree that route running/separation/speed probably shouldn't be lumped together, but i don't think there's anything incorrect with what i said.

you still haven't named one good receiver with amazing hands and reliability that is an average route runner, has average speed, and creates average separation. welker doesn't even count because he is a very good route runner, and has a knack for creating separation quickly and near the line of scrimmage. the other guys?

the good receivers with average hands that come to mind right off the bat are braylon edwards and TO. both create great separation and run good routes. jury's out on bowe, but he dropped an awful lot last year.

 

[Billy1x]

Route running and speed should be seperated. They are not related.

Route running is the most important followed by reacion time/quickness off the line (first 3 feet).

 

[awesomeness]

people talking about hands over route running/separation/speed make it sound like it's one or the other.

it's not. the question is which is more important.

i'd much rather see my team select a receiver with amazing route running/separation/speed and average hands/reliability than a receiver with amazing hands/reliability and average route running/separation/speed.

how many good receivers with amazing hands and average route running/speed/separation can you name? all the good receivers with amazing hands receivers i can think of generally had above average route running abilities, even if they weren't good deep threats.

on the other hand, there's a laundry list of good receivers with amazing route running/speed/separation with average hands.

To name a few:Larry Fitzgerald

Anquan Boldin

Brandon Marshall

Wes Welker

Marques Colston

Antonio Bryant

Who are the players on the laundry list who you consider to be amazing route running/speed/seperation with average hands guys?

The one guy that comes to mind is Terrell Owens. All the studs who don't fit into either of these categories (like Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Roddy White, etc.) have both elite speed/seperation/route running as well as very good hands, imo.

The list above has a problem - and it's the same one as the poll. Speed <> route running. They are essentially two different ways to get open, and some of the guys above have elite route running & separation kills, just not from speed.

i agree with this. I was just using his faulty criteria to prove a point.

who's faulty criteria? i agree that route running/separation/speed probably shouldn't be lumped together, but i don't think there's anything incorrect with what i said.

you still haven't named one good receiver with amazing hands and reliability that is an average route runner, has average speed, and creates average separation. welker doesn't even count because he is a very good route runner, and has a knack for creating separation quickly and near the line of scrimmage. the other guys?

the good receivers with average hands that come to mind right off the bat are braylon edwards and TO. both create great separation and run good routes. jury's out on bowe, but he dropped an awful lot last year.

That would be because there are no WRs who make it onto an NFL roster with average speed, seperation, and route running ability; so we wouldn't even have to worry about avoiding them on draft day cause they don't exist. I was just piggybacking off the speed part of those 3 qualities in the list i made. So your "laundry list of good receivers with amazing route running/speed/separation with average hands" is Braylon Edwards and Terrell Owens. That's a pretty weak ### laundry list.

 

[EBF]

That would be because there are no WRs who make it onto an NFL roster with average speed, seperation, and route running ability;

Aren't there?It's all relative. Anquan Boldin might have great speed for a typical man, but he has below average speed for an NFL WR. In a world where most of the DBs run 4.3-4.5, someone with 4.6 speed has below average speed.I don't think it's accurate to suggest that there are no NFL WRs with average speed. In fact, the average NFL WR has average speed (by NFL standards).

 

[JamesTheScot]

It can't be all one trait without the other but I definitely target WR's with speed/separation over hands/reliability. Give me the game changer over the chain mover all day long.

I voted for speed/separation as well, but for a slightly different reason. The bottom line is that most guys who are going to get drafted can catch the ball fairly well. On top of that, catching the ball is about as easy a thing as there is to evaluate in a prospect IMO. For that reason I care far more about guys who can create separation. Creating separation at the NFL level is the most difficult aspect to build IMO. Most college DBs are pathetic at jamming at the line and most college coaches won't even allow them to do it. On top of that, NFL DBs and CBs study the WRs they are covering far more. People are trying to claim that a guy who gets open but can't catch is useless. Well, so is a guy who can't get open in the 1st place. I'd rather have a guy who can get open 8 out of 10 times an maybe only make 4 catches than a guy who gets open 4 out of 10 times and makes 3 catches.

Agreed. Separation/speed creates pressure on the defense, causes double teams and changes the way teams defend which gives advantages to the offense in other areas. The Wayne Chrebets are nice and they make important NFL plays but they don't disrupt or change the game nearly as much as speed does. That's why 40 times are so important to NFL teams. Yes hands count and are important but if you are slow and can't separate it doesn't matter much.You basically described B. Edwards and if he were a FA there would be a dozen teams lining up to give him a huge contract.

So then all the top receivers, being game changers, should have great speed. Right? Peruse the top 10 WR's each year and you won't necessarily find guys who are the fastest WR on their team or were tops in speed in their draft class. Hands and route running are the keys.The problem with this poll is it lumps route running in with speed. Good route running can be taught and a good route runner can get as much seperation as a speedster despite being slower.

So I look for guys with great hands and good route running. I also look for good body control and aggresiveness going after the ball. With some learning in the route running arena, you end up with a guy that has sticky hands, can catch the contested ball yet can get open as well.

Raw speed is tremendously over-rated...because raw speed doesn't get you open in the NFL like it did in college. The league is full of fast guys who rise no higher than 3rd or 4th on the depth chart and never change the course of a game their entire careers...except as KR's and PR's.

 

[gianmarco]

It can't be all one trait without the other but I definitely target WR's with speed/separation over hands/reliability. Give me the game changer over the chain mover all day long.

I voted for speed/separation as well, but for a slightly different reason. The bottom line is that most guys who are going to get drafted can catch the ball fairly well. On top of that, catching the ball is about as easy a thing as there is to evaluate in a prospect IMO. For that reason I care far more about guys who can create separation. Creating separation at the NFL level is the most difficult aspect to build IMO. Most college DBs are pathetic at jamming at the line and most college coaches won't even allow them to do it. On top of that, NFL DBs and CBs study the WRs they are covering far more. People are trying to claim that a guy who gets open but can't catch is useless. Well, so is a guy who can't get open in the 1st place. I'd rather have a guy who can get open 8 out of 10 times an maybe only make 4 catches than a guy who gets open 4 out of 10 times and makes 3 catches.

Agreed. Separation/speed creates pressure on the defense, causes double teams and changes the way teams defend which gives advantages to the offense in other areas. The Wayne Chrebets are nice and they make important NFL plays but they don't disrupt or change the game nearly as much as speed does. That's why 40 times are so important to NFL teams. Yes hands count and are important but if you are slow and can't separate it doesn't matter much.You basically described B. Edwards and if he were a FA there would be a dozen teams lining up to give him a huge contract.

So then all the top receivers, being game changers, should have great speed. Right? Peruse the top 10 WR's each year and you won't necessarily find guys who are the fastest WR on their team or were tops in speed in their draft class. Hands and route running are the keys.The problem with this poll is it lumps route running in with speed. Good route running can be taught and a good route runner can get as much seperation as a speedster despite being slower.

So I look for guys with great hands and good route running. I also look for good body control and aggresiveness going after the ball. With some learning in the route running arena, you end up with a guy that has sticky hands, can catch the contested ball yet can get open as well.

Raw speed is tremendously over-rated...because raw speed doesn't get you open in the NFL like it did in college. The league is full of fast guys who rise no higher than 3rd or 4th on the depth chart and never change the course of a game their entire careers...except as KR's and PR's.

This was just meant to be more in general terms when I initially posed the question. I like the discussion in here so far, but I've also seen many say "these 2 things aren't the same" or "there's more to being a good WR". I know this.To make it simple, is it better to have a WR that can get open (due to good separation technique and/or raw speed and/or good route running, etc.) but can't catch as well or is it better to have a WR that has great hands but can't always get open (due to lack of speed and/or lack of technique and/or physical restraints, etc.).

Which type of prospect do you rate better, generally speaking? Do you gamble on a guy like Troy Williamson, someone who can get open all day but can't catch a cold, or do you gamble on someone you know has great hands but struggles to get off the line or get open for whatever various reason (poor technique, poor route running, not fast, not quick, not physical enough, etc.)? Which is easier to overcome? If a WR could do both, which would you rather he did better?

I apologize for any confusion this led to although some of the discussion has been great nevertheless.

 

[awesomeness]

That would be because there are no WRs who make it onto an NFL roster with average speed, seperation, and route running ability;

Aren't there?It's all relative. Anquan Boldin might have great speed for a typical man, but he has below average speed for an NFL WR. In a world where most of the DBs run 4.3-4.5, someone with 4.6 speed has below average speed.I don't think it's accurate to suggest that there are no NFL WRs with average speed. In fact, the average NFL WR has average speed (by NFL standards).

i meant someone who had all of average speed, average route running, and average seperation. I'm actually a big believer in speed/40 times being more of an unnecessary luxury than a necessity when it comes to NFL WRs.