When Has Nationalizing An Industry Ever Worked For The People? Ever? (1 Viewer)

[roadkill1292]

The Veterans Administration Hospitals are an example of a single payer system. Notice that our elected officials get their health care elsewhere.

The conclusion I don't want to draw is that we can't run a system better than we run the VA. We're the best, we should be able to run the best system better than anyone.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

We might want to be careful about tarring everyone with the same MOP brush. Yeah, lots of single payer opponents hate the idea of "free riders" and the "undeserved" getting roughly the same level of care as everyone else. But gb jonessed kinda hints around at another big concern that I think a lot of folks have and that's that the everyday quality of care they'll receive will decline in a single payer system. Am I right about this? And how would our Canadian guys respond to that?

I've never had a problem with the care I've received. Shoulder surgery and a few other minor things for me. Wife having a child and a few surgeries all very quick without issue. Father has had his knee operated on (elective) a few times and has never had an issue. Have a couple cancer survivors in my family and could go on and on. Never do I hear complaints about the treatment they've received. 

My wife got sick early xmas morning and we spent 8 hours in the ER. Was likely just the flu but she's pregnant so we weren't taking any risks. They put her on an IV, did a couple ultrasounds, gave her some meds and let her go home. No bill. No deductible. No insurance BS. Just have a good xmas!

Sure the system isn't perfect. There is an alarming lack of equipment and specialists which cause the wait times that are an issue in some places. Is this the fault of the system? I have no idea. 

As for people getting free rides, there are going to be people who abuse every system. I hate those people but what can you do? If you pay taxes, you're paying for your healthcare. Now if you're worthless POS that doesn't pay taxes I hate the idea of them getting #### they don't pay for. I hate how my tax money is used for the chronic losers that abuse the system. There are 8 ER beds in the hospital I go. When we were there xmas day, 6 of them were filled with trash... IIRC, 4 of them had officers there.  

 

[matttyl]

If you reference the study i sent you the smoking rates are much higher in france.

"Rate" yes, but not in quantity.  The smokers here, on average, smoke much more than the smokers there.  They just have a higher rate of smokers there.  In fact the smokers here smoke so much more than the smokers there that the national average of cigarettes per adult per year is higher here than it is there.  There you may have "smokers" that smoke one cigarette a week or two - enough to be considered a smoker, but likely not enough to affect anything we're talking about.

 

[matttyl]

You flesh that out a little bit and the medical bankruptcies aren't because they needed brain surgery, they are more chronic in that drugs aren't fully covered for example (canada is in the mix of building a national drug plan).  So it's really apples to oranges

He asked a question about medical bankruptcies in Canada (likely because he thought there wouldn't be many).  Yet there still are quite a few apparently.  If you think it's "apples to oranges", then tell that to the guy initially asking the question, not the guy answering it.

 

[kface]

He asked a question about medical bankruptcies in Canada (likely because he thought there wouldn't be many).  Yet there still are quite a few apparently.  If you think it's "apples to oranges", then tell that to the guy initially asking the question, not the guy answering it.

Hopefully he reads it then

Just digging again into those numbers and lots of those medical bankruptcies are driven by loss of income not the medical expenses themselves (i.e. the inability to work).  

 

[kface]

"Rate" yes, but not in quantity.  The smokers here, on average, smoke much more than the smokers there.  They just have a higher rate of smokers there.  In fact the smokers here smoke so much more than the smokers there that the national average of cigarettes per adult per year is higher here than it is there.  There you may have "smokers" that smoke one cigarette a week or two - enough to be considered a smoker, but likely not enough to affect anything we're talking about.

You are getting into a lot of hypothetical's here.  My comment really is that every society is different.  Rates of MS are way higher in northern countries for example.  Whether you are considering some sort of threshold (which you yourself are creating) that says that the french don't smoke enough cigarettes per week to matter is something you are creating.  Societies are different, there is no doubt, it's what makes medical research so difficult but we work with the data we have and the US, even without african americans, has one of the worst maternal infant mortality rates in the western world even though we spend way more money on health care.  That should be a concern for everyone.  

Where I do tend to agree with you is the US, for whatever reason, is the fattest, dumbest, unhealthiest country of the western world.  That alone should be a concern for most people.  

 

[matttyl]

Hopefully he reads it then

Just digging again into those numbers and lots of those medical bankruptcies are driven by loss of income not the medical expenses themselves (i.e. the inability to work).  

The exact same is true here, though.  Studies here show that when people declare bankruptcy here, of all the debt they've accumulated to get to that point, only roughly 17% of it (I believe) is medical expenses.  The rate of personal bankruptcies in Canada and here aren't vastly different, even among those who claim "medical expenses" as the primary reason.

 

[kface]

The exact same is true here, though.  Studies here show that when people declare bankruptcy here, of all the debt they've accumulated to get to that point, only roughly 17% of it (I believe) is medical expenses.  The rate of personal bankruptcies in Canada and here aren't vastly different, even among those who claim "medical expenses" as the primary reason.

Yes but you can see the difference between owing 50k for cancer care and not being able to work because of chronic pain correct?  And keep in mind this is for declaring bankruptcy.  Canada has a number of programs that covers you if you are sick and unable to work.  So while they are declaring bankruptcy (not even for medical expenses necessarily keep in mind), they are still supported while they are unemployed.  They just can't afford the $500 payment on the car and the payment on the house for example...

 

[matttyl]

You are getting into a lot of hypothetical's here.  My comment really is that every society is different.  Rates of MS are way higher in northern countries for example.  Whether you are considering some sort of threshold (which you yourself are creating) that says that the french don't smoke enough cigarettes per week to matter is something you are creating.  Societies are different, there is no doubt, it's what makes medical research so difficult but we work with the data we have and the US, even without african americans, has one of the worst maternal infant mortality rates in the western world even though we spend way more money on health care.  That should be a concern for everyone.  

Where I do tend to agree with you is the US, for whatever reason, is the fattest, dumbest, unhealthiest country of the western world.  That alone should be a concern for most people.  

Well of course it's a concern, what I'm saying is there are reasons for the situation of having one of the worst maternal infant mortality rates.  One of the largest is that over half of all pregnancies here are unplanned, far higher than other places.  Actual tobacco consumption here is higher than most anywhere else, same with alcohol.  Lots more younger (and older) mothers to be.  Lots and lots more IV fertilization pregnancies (which can have up to a 12x higher rate of infant mortality than natural fertilization).  Obesity, the general health of the population (both of you which you point out), the mix of races in the population, and other factors are also present. 

For a true, yet impossible, "apples to apples" comparison - you'd have to have all of those factors present at similar rates in those other countries you want to look at, and see what their outcomes would be.  If unplanned pregnancies were 55% of all pregnancies in the UK for instance, I'd imagine their infant mortality rate would rise - don't you?

 

[matttyl]

Yes but you can see the difference between owing 50k for cancer care and not being able to work because of chronic pain correct?  And keep in mind this is for declaring bankruptcy.  Canada has a number of programs that covers you if you are sick and unable to work.  So while they are declaring bankruptcy (not even for medical expenses necessarily keep in mind), they are still supported while they are unemployed.  They just can't afford the $500 payment on the car and the payment on the house for example...

Much of the same is true here, though.  We have programs that cover you if you get sick and are unable to work (Medicaid, in fact being sick isn't even a prerequisite).  We have unemployment and other programs, too.  All I'm pointing out is that if you believe Canada has a drastically lower rate of bankruptcies because they have socialized medicine, you'd be incorrect.  

 

[kface]

Well of course it's a concern, what I'm saying is there are reasons for the situation of having one of the worst maternal infant mortality rates.  One of the largest is that over half of all pregnancies here are unplanned, far higher than other places.  Actual tobacco consumption here is higher than most anywhere else, same with alcohol.  Lots more younger (and older) mothers to be.  Lots and lots more IV fertilization pregnancies (which can have up to a 12x higher rate of infant mortality than natural fertilization).  Obesity, the general health of the population (both of you which you point out), the mix of races in the population, and other factors are also present. 

For a true, yet impossible, "apples to apples" comparison - you'd have to have all of those factors present at similar rates in those other countries you want to look at, and see what their outcomes would be.  If unplanned pregnancies were 55% of all pregnancies in the UK for instance, I'd imagine their infant mortality rate would rise - don't you?

You can google it but there isn't a strong correlation between unplanned and infant mortality rates.  In fact many studies find no correlation at all.

Smoking and drinking and increased age however are both strongly correlated.

It's hard to say.  Is it possible that having access to health care on a nationalized scale leads to healthier outcomes because those people go to the dr.'s and listen to their advice?  Maybe lack of health care is the driving cause of all those issues you identify?

 

[kface]

Much of the same is true here, though.  We have programs that cover you if you get sick and are unable to work (Medicaid, in fact being sick isn't even a prerequisite).  We have unemployment and other programs, too.  All I'm pointing out is that if you believe Canada has a drastically lower rate of bankruptcies because they have socialized medicine, you'd be incorrect.  

Interestingly enough Canada does not publish the rates of bankruptcies so the argument is somewhat moot.  I do however have trouble believing that the rates of medical bankruptcies are even close.  It's mostly unheard of in Canada.  The only study of significance i could find mention the over 55 crowd but nothing otherwise.  

 

[Cliff Clavin]

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/753618-free-annual-physical-not-free/

So glad not to have to deal with this type of crap.

 

[matttyl]

You can google it but there isn't a strong correlation between unplanned and infant mortality rates.  In fact many studies find no correlation at all.

Smoking and drinking and increased age however are both strongly correlated.

It's hard to say.  Is it possible that having access to health care on a nationalized scale leads to healthier outcomes because those people go to the dr.'s and listen to their advice?  Maybe lack of health care is the driving cause of all those issues you identify?

Unplanned often means unknown.  If the mother doesn't know she's expecting, she doesn't know that she'd need to stop doing certain things (smoking, drinking).  I think I posted a link to a study above that details all that.

And I'm not sure that lack of health care is making people fat, or smoke, or drink, or not exercise, or eat poorly.  

 

[kface]

Unplanned often means unknown.  If the mother doesn't know she's expecting, she doesn't know that she'd need to stop doing certain things (smoking, drinking).  I think I posted a link to a study above that details all that.

And I'm not sure that lack of health care is making people fat, or smoke, or drink, or not exercise, or eat poorly.  

I'm not sure either but it sure seems to me that if most people went to the dr. for an annual check up and they provided advice it may impact those rates?  It may also catch things earlier which would lead to less complications.  Even your comment above about unplanned...is it possible that if people had easy access to a family physician they might actually go in and ask why they feel so weird?

 

[matttyl]

Interestingly enough Canada does not publish the rates of bankruptcies so the argument is somewhat moot.  I do however have trouble believing that the rates of medical bankruptcies are even close.  It's mostly unheard of in Canada.  The only study of significance i could find mention the over 55 crowd but nothing otherwise.  

Um, what?  What do you call this?  It was commissioned by the Canadian government.  Yes, the numbers are roughly 10 years old.

Quote - "The number of consumer bankruptcies in Canada has grown in the past 30 years from 6,271 in 1973 to 84,638 in 2005."  The second leading cause, was "medical reasons".

link - In 2008, the US bankruptcy rate was only 0.3% higher than the Canadian one, and in 2006-2007 the US rate was actually lower than the Canadian one.

another link -

For some more recent stuff...https://www.bankruptcy-canada.ca/causes-of-bankruptcy-in-canada  "The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems"

 

[kface]

Um, what?  What do you call this?  It was commissioned by the Canadian government.  Yes, the numbers are roughly 10 years old.

Quote - "The number of consumer bankruptcies in Canada has grown in the past 30 years from 6,271 in 1973 to 84,638 in 2005."  The second leading cause, was "medical reasons".

link - In 2008, the US bankruptcy rate was only 0.3% higher than the Canadian one, and in 2006-2007 the US rate was actually lower than the Canadian one.

another link -

For some more recent stuff...https://www.bankruptcy-canada.ca/causes-of-bankruptcy-in-canada  "The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems"

Again that was a study commissioned by the government for those over 55, which i mentioned in the post.  Canada does not post annual bankruptcy numbers and the causes.  

Both of your supporting links are interpretations of that data by right wing conservative sites.  That needs to be taken with a grain of salt obviously

Again the last one is just a guess more or less based on that organization.  Canada does not publish the rates.  Even with that last link you link it says

"The last on our list of leading causes of bankruptcy in Canada, are medical problems; they often can and do lead to a lot of financial problems. Fortunately, in Canada most of our medical expenses, such as hospital care, are covered by the government, unlike in the United States where medical bills for uninsured Americans are a leading cause of bankruptcy in America.

However, if you get sick or injured, and you are off work for a number of months, even with medical insurance your income is reduced, and that makes it more difficult to service your debts."

Which pretty much summarizes my argument.  They do not declare bankruptcy because of medical expenses but instead declare bankruptcies because they cannot service already existing debt.  That is profoundly different than what happens in the US

 

[matttyl]

Which pretty much summarizes my argument.  They do not declare bankruptcy because of medical expenses but instead declare bankruptcies because they cannot service already existing debt.  That is profoundly different than what happens in the US

Not really.  It's the same situation here (except maybe for the ~10% of the population who's uninsured).  It's not only medical debt that makes folks in the US declare bankruptcy.  In fact a study showed that only 17% of debt of those filing bankruptcy in the state is "medical debt".  It's also the mortgage, car payment, credit card, student debt....on and on.....which can't be paid for it you aren't working just like what they are saying (so you should have disability insurance, but that's another story).  Medical insurance is there to cover medical bills, disability insurance replaces that lost income if you aren't working due to injury or illness. 

 

[kface]

Not really.  It's the same situation here (except maybe for the ~10% of the population who's uninsured).  It's not only medical debt that makes folks in the US declare bankruptcy.  In fact a study showed that only 17% of debt of those filing bankruptcy in the state is "medical debt".  It's also the mortgage, car payment, credit card, student debt....on and on.....which can't be paid for it you aren't working just like what they are saying (so you should have disability insurance, but that's another story).  Medical insurance is there to cover medical bills, disability insurance replaces that lost income if you aren't working due to injury or illness. 

I would love to see the study.  Snopes clearly states that there is no way to really decipher those numbers.  It's very hard to rely on the internet because obviously specific ideologies are using the numbers to support their argument.

Again i go back to though the anecdotal evidence that people who can't afford cancer care or other major health complications is much different than in Canada where all that is paid for.  It seems like common sense that the differences in the bankruptcies would be tremendous

 

[roadkill1292]

To carry over from another thread, we should nationalize the NFL. Let's make the national football league really national. 

 

[matttyl]

 It seems like common sense that the differences in the bankruptcies would be tremendous
 

You'd think so (which is why it was brought up), but you don't see that when you look.

 

[kface]

12-13 percent is still pretty high anyway you cut it

and again I am certain much higher than canada.