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Where does Vernon Davis grade out...... (1 Viewer)

Demons

Footballguy
After the top 4 RB's, I see Vernon Davis as the next best talent, FF-wise. I see him as the most likely player to go at 1.5.

With his speed and measurables who do you see him challenging when you rank TE's? Is he the next Shockey or the next Gates? Or is he not as talented?

I have not watched any games he played or any tape. Is he better than Winslow was rated as being, coming out of school?

 

fridayfrenzy

Footballguy
TEs

8.7 Kellen Winslow, Miami

8.5 Heath Miler, Virginia

8.3 Ben Troupe, Florida

8.2 Vernon Davis, Maryland

7.9 Leonard Pope, Georgia

7.8 Ben Watson, Georgia

7.7 Mercedes Lewis, UCLA

7.6 Alex Smith, Stanford

7.3 Anthony Fasano, Notre Dame

6.6 Ben Utecht, Minnesota

6.5 Kevin Everett, Miami

6.2 Joe Klopfenstein, Colorado

6.2 Garrett Cross, Cal

6.1 Jason Peters, Arkansas

6.0 Dominique Byrd, USC

5.9 Tim Day, Oregon

5.9 Joel Dreessen, Colorado St

5.8 David Thomas, Texas

5.7 Steve Fleming, Arizona

5.7 Ben Hartsock, Ohio St

5.6 Cooper Wallace, Auburn

5.5 TJ Williams, NC State

5.5 Chris Cooley, Utah St

5.4 Adam Bergen, Lehigh

5.2 Ronnie Ghent, Louisville

5.1 David Kashetta, Boston College

4.8 Alex Holmes, USC

4.8 Sean Ryan, Boston College

4.4 Eric Knott, Michigan St

4.4 Keith Willis, Virginia Tech

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...dpost&p=4510172

 
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Jason Wood

Zoo York
It largely depends on where he gets drafted, but based on pure ability alone? He should be considered right up there with Gates, Gonzo and Shockey to be sure.

 

thayman

Footballguy
I saw him play at MD, and he is an amazing TE to watch. I wouldn't put him up in the Gates, Gonzo, Shockey tier, just because he hasn't played in the NFL yet. But if he lands in a situation ala Todd Heap, look for some huge numbers.

 

Rev

Footballguy
TEs

8.7 Kellen Winslow, Miami

8.5 Heath Miler, Virginia

8.3 Ben Troupe, Florida

8.2 Vernon Davis, Maryland

7.9 Leonard Pope, Georgia

7.8 Ben Watson, Georgia

7.7 Mercedes Lewis, UCLA

7.6 Alex Smith, Stanford

7.3 Anthony Fasano, Notre Dame

6.6 Ben Utecht, Minnesota

6.5 Kevin Everett, Miami

6.2 Joe Klopfenstein, Colorado

6.2 Garrett Cross, Cal

6.1 Jason Peters, Arkansas

6.0 Dominique Byrd, USC

5.9 Tim Day, Oregon

5.9 Joel Dreessen, Colorado St

5.8 David Thomas, Texas

5.7 Steve Fleming, Arizona

5.7 Ben Hartsock, Ohio St

5.6 Cooper Wallace, Auburn

5.5 TJ Williams, NC State

5.5 Chris Cooley, Utah St

5.4 Adam Bergen, Lehigh

5.2 Ronnie Ghent, Louisville

5.1 David Kashetta, Boston College

4.8 Alex Holmes, USC

4.8 Sean Ryan, Boston College

4.4 Eric Knott, Michigan St

4.4 Keith Willis, Virginia Tech

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...dpost&p=4510172
Call me ignorant, but this list makes zero sense to me. I've puzzled over it long enough, and so I'm swallowing my pride and simply admitting that I don't get it. I have a freegin master's degree, but can't figure this out. Help! :nerd: :bag:
 

nygiants56

Footballguy
TEs

8.7 Kellen Winslow, Miami

8.5 Heath Miler, Virginia

8.3 Ben Troupe, Florida

8.2 Vernon Davis, Maryland

7.9 Leonard Pope, Georgia

7.8 Ben Watson, Georgia

7.7 Mercedes Lewis, UCLA

7.6 Alex Smith, Stanford

7.3 Anthony Fasano, Notre Dame

6.6 Ben Utecht, Minnesota

6.5 Kevin Everett, Miami

6.2 Joe Klopfenstein, Colorado

6.2 Garrett Cross, Cal

6.1 Jason Peters, Arkansas

6.0 Dominique Byrd, USC

5.9 Tim Day, Oregon

5.9 Joel Dreessen, Colorado St

5.8 David Thomas, Texas

5.7 Steve Fleming, Arizona

5.7 Ben Hartsock, Ohio St

5.6 Cooper Wallace, Auburn

5.5 TJ Williams, NC State

5.5 Chris Cooley, Utah St

5.4 Adam Bergen, Lehigh

5.2 Ronnie Ghent, Louisville

5.1 David Kashetta, Boston College

4.8 Alex Holmes, USC

4.8 Sean Ryan, Boston College

4.4 Eric Knott, Michigan St

4.4 Keith Willis, Virginia Tech

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...dpost&p=4510172
Call me ignorant, but this list makes zero sense to me. I've puzzled over it long enough, and so I'm swallowing my pride and simply admitting that I don't get it. I have a freegin master's degree, but can't figure this out. Help! :nerd: :bag:
NFL scouting grades?basically, winslow,miller,troupe are the only TE's in recent drafts, to rank higher than Davis as a top prospect at the position..

 

Destroyer

Footballguy
TEs

8.7 Kellen Winslow, Miami

8.5 Heath Miler, Virginia

8.3 Ben Troupe, Florida

8.2 Vernon Davis, Maryland

7.9 Leonard Pope, Georgia

7.8 Ben Watson, Georgia

7.7 Mercedes Lewis, UCLA

7.6 Alex Smith, Stanford

7.3 Anthony Fasano, Notre Dame

6.6 Ben Utecht, Minnesota

6.5 Kevin Everett, Miami

6.2 Joe Klopfenstein, Colorado

6.2 Garrett Cross, Cal

6.1 Jason Peters, Arkansas

6.0 Dominique Byrd, USC

5.9 Tim Day, Oregon

5.9 Joel Dreessen, Colorado St

5.8 David Thomas, Texas

5.7 Steve Fleming, Arizona

5.7 Ben Hartsock, Ohio St

5.6 Cooper Wallace, Auburn

5.5 TJ Williams, NC State

5.5 Chris Cooley, Utah St

5.4 Adam Bergen, Lehigh

5.2 Ronnie Ghent, Louisville

5.1 David Kashetta, Boston College

4.8 Alex Holmes, USC

4.8 Sean Ryan, Boston College

4.4 Eric Knott, Michigan St

4.4 Keith Willis, Virginia Tech

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...dpost&p=4510172
Call me ignorant, but this list makes zero sense to me. I've puzzled over it long enough, and so I'm swallowing my pride and simply admitting that I don't get it. I have a freegin master's degree, but can't figure this out. Help! :nerd: :bag:
Grades are from the Sporting News. Players are from draft years 2004-2006.
 
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Sigmund Bloom

Footballguy
Staff member
I would tentatively slot him around 8 or 9 in dynasty TE rankings, with the understanding that A) the 4 to 8 tier is very close and he's part of that B) as long as his adjustment goes well, he's on the fast track to the top 5.

 

Jason Wood

Zoo York
Vernon Davis is a cross between Kellen Winslow 2 and Ben Watson...as his best attribute is his speed.
He's got far more working for him than speed. Davis set TE records at the Combine for vertical leap, bench reps, the 40, among other things. He's also got natural, soft hands as a receiver and runs far better than average routes. He's a capable blocker, but like the other elite fantasy TEs, it's not something he's all that consistent with.
 

Cookiemonster

Footballguy
At the 'Skills Challenge', his hands in the Jugs Drill were second only to C.Jackson. Far better catching the ball as well as the much larger target in comparison to Moss and Holmes.

 

TheFanatic

Footballguy
Call me ignorant, but this list makes zero sense to me. I've puzzled over it long enough, and so I'm swallowing my pride and simply admitting that I don't get it. I have a free gin master's degree, but can't figure this out. Help! :nerd: :bag:
Maybe your problem is that you got a Free Gin Master's degree. If you would've laid off the gin you might've been able to make sense of the scouting grades..... :D :P
 

JayMan

Footballguy
I would tentatively slot him around 8 or 9 in dynasty TE rankings, with the understanding that A) the 4 to 8 tier is very close and he's part of that B) as long as his adjustment goes well, he's on the fast track to the top 5.
Interesting comment Mr. Bloom, as usual...I would just like for you to elaborate the tiers you are mentioning (I might be able to find this in another thread - which I will try and do)...

I would say, [DYNASTY] wise

tier1: Gates, Shockey, Gonzalez

tier2: Heap, Witten, Crumpler, Miller

tier3: Cooley, McMichael, Watson, Winslow, VDavis

tier4: Smith, Clark, Stevens, Pope

My own goal is to rate B. Watson - since I own him in the [DYNASTY] league in the sig... I think we could be servicable in very short future (since Graham is a FA at the end of next year - please confirm Pats fans), as I've got Heap starting for the moment...

Care to elaborate on that subject also...

 

Sigmund Bloom

Footballguy
Staff member
I would tentatively slot him around 8 or 9 in dynasty TE rankings, with the understanding that A) the 4 to 8 tier is very close and he's part of that B) as long as his adjustment goes well, he's on the fast track to the top 5.
Interesting comment Mr. Bloom, as usual...I would just like for you to elaborate the tiers you are mentioning (I might be able to find this in another thread - which I will try and do)...

I would say, [DYNASTY] wise

tier1: Gates, Shockey, Gonzalez

tier2: Heap, Witten, Crumpler, Miller

tier3: Cooley, McMichael, Watson, Winslow, VDavis

tier4: Smith, Clark, Stevens, Pope

My own goal is to rate B. Watson - since I own him in the [DYNASTY] league in the sig... I think we could be servicable in very short future (since Graham is a FA at the end of next year - please confirm Pats fans), as I've got Heap starting for the moment...

Care to elaborate on that subject also...
I :wub: Ben Watson. I think we have barely seen what's to come for this guy, and the vacuum at WR after Deion Branch will open a huge opportunity for his numbers to explode this year.
 

msommer

Footballguy
I would tentatively slot him around 8 or 9 in dynasty TE rankings, with the understanding that A) the 4 to 8 tier is very close and he's part of that B) as long as his adjustment goes well, he's on the fast track to the top 5.
Interesting comment Mr. Bloom, as usual...I would just like for you to elaborate the tiers you are mentioning (I might be able to find this in another thread - which I will try and do)...

I would say, [DYNASTY] wise

tier1: Gates, Shockey, Gonzalez

tier2: Heap, Witten, Crumpler, Miller

tier3: Cooley, McMichael, Watson, Winslow, VDavis

tier4: Smith, Clark, Stevens, Pope

My own goal is to rate B. Watson - since I own him in the [DYNASTY] league in the sig... I think we could be servicable in very short future (since Graham is a FA at the end of next year - please confirm Pats fans), as I've got Heap starting for the moment...

Care to elaborate on that subject also...
Personally I think Cooley has peaked for now, not from an athletic standpoint but since there will be more viable receivers to share the load over the next few years. He'll still get his red zone looks, but I think he is a prime candidate to underperform his ADP in 2006
 

Tick

Footballguy
My veteran rankings...

Gates

Shockey/Heap/Gonzo

Witten/Crumpler/McMichael

Miller/Smith/Cooley/Winslow/Troupe/Watson/Stevens

EJohnson/DaClark

(huge dropoff)

For me, Davis goes into that fourth group until he shows me more. We've gotten a ton of hype and mediocre production out of the last couple of draft classes at TE - they're all great targets, but mostly crappy blockers, and they don't seem to be putting up the stats yet. I'll still value a solid vet like McMichael over them until they convince me.

 

Tackling Dummies

Footballguy
I :wub: Ben Watson. I think we have barely seen what's to come for this guy, and the vacuum at WR after Deion Branch will open a huge opportunity for his numbers to explode this year.
Agree 100%. All signs pointing up for Watson. No significant threat at all to his PT, a weak RB (for receptions), a thin WR corps, a quality QB and a team that does not hesistate to throw.
 

cstu

Footballguy
I would tentatively slot him around 8 or 9 in dynasty TE rankings, with the understanding that A) the 4 to 8 tier is very close and he's part of that B) as long as his adjustment goes well, he's on the fast track to the top 5.
Interesting comment Mr. Bloom, as usual...I would just like for you to elaborate the tiers you are mentioning (I might be able to find this in another thread - which I will try and do)...

I would say, [DYNASTY] wise

tier1: Gates, Shockey, Gonzalez

tier2: Heap, Witten, Crumpler, Miller

tier3: Cooley, McMichael, Watson, Winslow, VDavis

tier4: Smith, Clark, Stevens, Pope

My own goal is to rate B. Watson - since I own him in the [DYNASTY] league in the sig... I think we could be servicable in very short future (since Graham is a FA at the end of next year - please confirm Pats fans), as I've got Heap starting for the moment...

Care to elaborate on that subject also...
Personally I think Cooley has peaked for now, not from an athletic standpoint but since there will be more viable receivers to share the load over the next few years. He'll still get his red zone looks, but I think he is a prime candidate to underperform his ADP in 2006
Cooley was a big beneficiary of a lack of receivers for the Redskins. However, with the new WR's they've signed, I see him being used a lot less. He could get some TD's, but he probably won't be the big producer he has been.
 

cstu

Footballguy
I would tentatively slot him around 8 or 9 in dynasty TE rankings, with the understanding that A) the 4 to 8 tier is very close and he's part of that B) as long as his adjustment goes well, he's on the fast track to the top 5.
Interesting comment Mr. Bloom, as usual...I would just like for you to elaborate the tiers you are mentioning (I might be able to find this in another thread - which I will try and do)...

I would say, [DYNASTY] wise

tier1: Gates, Shockey, Gonzalez

tier2: Heap, Witten, Crumpler, Miller

tier3: Cooley, McMichael, Watson, Winslow, VDavis

tier4: Smith, Clark, Stevens, Pope

My own goal is to rate B. Watson - since I own him in the [DYNASTY] league in the sig... I think we could be servicable in very short future (since Graham is a FA at the end of next year - please confirm Pats fans), as I've got Heap starting for the moment...

Care to elaborate on that subject also...
I :wub: Ben Watson. I think we have barely seen what's to come for this guy, and the vacuum at WR after Deion Branch will open a huge opportunity for his numbers to explode this year.
:thumbup: We've just seen the tip of the iceberg with Watson. I'm expecting a big increase in his numbers this year as he becomes a major part of the offense. A Gates-like breakthrough wouldn't surprise me.

 

JayMan

Footballguy
I would tentatively slot him around 8 or 9 in dynasty TE rankings, with the understanding that A) the 4 to 8 tier is very close and he's part of that B) as long as his adjustment goes well, he's on the fast track to the top 5.
Interesting comment Mr. Bloom, as usual...I would just like for you to elaborate the tiers you are mentioning (I might be able to find this in another thread - which I will try and do)...

I would say, [DYNASTY] wise

tier1: Gates, Shockey, Gonzalez

tier2: Heap, Witten, Crumpler, Miller

tier3: Cooley, McMichael, Watson, Winslow, VDavis

tier4: Smith, Clark, Stevens, Pope

My own goal is to rate B. Watson - since I own him in the [DYNASTY] league in the sig... I think we could be servicable in very short future (since Graham is a FA at the end of next year - please confirm Pats fans), as I've got Heap starting for the moment...

Care to elaborate on that subject also...
I :wub: Ben Watson. I think we have barely seen what's to come for this guy, and the vacuum at WR after Deion Branch will open a huge opportunity for his numbers to explode this year.
:thumbup: We've just seen the tip of the iceberg with Watson. I'm expecting a big increase in his numbers this year as he becomes a major part of the offense. A Gates-like breakthrough wouldn't surprise me.
:thumbup: very interesting comments from two respected board contributors... I'm glad I dealt for him even more right now!
 
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Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
Vernon Davis is a cross between Kellen Winslow 2 and Ben Watson...as his best attribute is his speed.
He's got far more working for him than speed.
As do KW2 and Watson...that still doesn't change the fact that speed is Davis best attribute, as was stated. There are less than a handfull of TEs with the kind of speed Davis has...this is why it is by far his best attribute.
there may be NO TEs that have the kind of speed davis has... most scout & combine insider types were fairly certain no TE has ever run a 4.3 at the combine... watson reportedly has 4.4 speed, so he may be close...why single out one attribute such as speed with such an obviously well rounded player?

bethel johnson's best attribute is speed... unfortunately it is his ONLY attribute. :)

willie mays was one of the original five tool players... he could run, field, throw, hit for average & power... what was his best attribute?

attempting to DEFINE what davis is, in too narrowly constrained a sense, loses sight of his OVERALL athleticism.

why not focus on his overall athleticism as a defining feature, taking a cue from mays in baseball?

he is faster than most CBs, bigger than most LBs... & as jason alluded to, jumped over 40" & did something like 33 reps (he reportedly benches about 500 lbs)...

another way i would put this... with his elite package of overall skills (hands & route running were also mentioned), even if he ran a 4.5 or a 4.6, he would still probably be #1 TE prospect with a bullet... assuming he still kept his other measurables... honing in on speed to the exclusion of everything else could lose sight of that.

another huge differentiating factor & attribute in his favor is how dangerous he is in the open field when the ball is in his hands. when he isn't running away from DBs (he does this often :) ), he looks like a man among boys in the secondary... a lot of highlights show 2-3 DBs are needed to bring him down...

he runs like a man possessed with the ball, & really looks to punish DBs & attack downfield... in this respect, he looks gates-like... & imo superior to gonzo...

 
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cstu

Footballguy
Vernon Davis is a cross between Kellen Winslow 2 and Ben Watson...as his best attribute is his speed.
He's got far more working for him than speed.
As do KW2 and Watson...that still doesn't change the fact that speed is Davis best attribute, as was stated. There are less than a handfull of TEs with the kind of speed Davis has...this is why it is by far his best attribute.
there may be NO TEs that have the kind of speed davis has... most scout & combine insider types were fairly certain no TE has ever run a 4.3 at the combine... watson reportedly has 4.4 speed, so he may be close...why single out one attribute such as speed with such an obviously well rounded player?

bethel johnson's best attribute is speed... unfortunately it is his ONLY attribute. :)

willie mays was one of the original five tool players... he could run, field, throw, hit for average & power... what was his best attribute?

attempting to DEFINE what davis is, in too narrowly constrained a sense, loses sight of his OVERALL athleticism.

why not focus on his overall athleticism as a defining feature, taking a cue from mays in baseball?

he is faster than most CBs, bigger than most LBs... & as jason alluded to, jumped over 40" & did something like 33 reps (he reportedly benches about 500 lbs)...

another way i would put this... with his elite package of overall skills (hands & route running were also mentioned), even if he ran a 4.5 or a 4.6, he would still probably be #1 TE prospect with a bullet... assuming he still kept his other measurables... honing in on speed to the exclusion of everything else could lose sight of that.

another huge differentiating factor & attribute in his favor is how dangerous he is in the open field when the ball is in his hands. when he isn't running away from DBs (he does this often :) ), he looks like a man among boys in the secondary... a lot of highlights show 2-3 DBs are needed to bring him down...

he runs like a man possessed with the ball, & really looks to punish DBs & attack downfield... in this respect, he looks gates-like... & imo superior to gonzo...
Vernon Davis is going to be a difficult player for defenses to contain and creates mismatches against whoever lines up opposite him. LB's don't have the speed to cover him and DB's are too small to stop him. To me he's the most exciting player to come out of college since Vick due to the variety of ways he can be used. I was very impressed by his enthusiasm for blocking and can see him helping the running game as well as providing a decoy for the WR's. If he's used properly he can improve a team's offense immediately.
 

Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
i brought up strength more in context of making him more explosive & dangerous in open field... not too many CBs are going to bench 500 lbs = more likely for him to break tackles = more yards = more TDs...

i wasn't making a blanket generalization that davis is as good as gonzo... read it again & i can clue you in if you are still confused...

mays was just a simple example of how there might be a danger in missing a players OVERALL athleticism to rigidly adhere to focusing on one attribute, which you seem to be bent on doing...

not sure what davis running a 4.5 or 4.6 than dropping out of top 10 has to do with anything... i just said he would still be my top TE... ie, grade higher than lewis, pope, byrd, etc... unless you think those guys are going in top 10, we aren't in disagreement. :)

* not sure who you guys are in reference to those that graded winslow high coming out of miami... many scouts said he was the top TE prospect EVER... i don't think it is the best way to make your case to say that winslow wasn't really as good as the scouts thought... we have no way of knowing as he has broken his leg & tore up his knee in consecutive seasons... since you don't like baseball analogies... jim brown wouldn't have looked good either, with those type of injuries...

so you decided winslow looked lost before his injuries... how many games did he play to start off career before going down? maybe a snap judgement? :)

 
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Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
you convinced me... there must be no possible connection between strength & tackle breaking ability...

have you ever heard of this thing some smart guys on the east coast have been busy inventing... its called a STIIIFF ARM, i think. :) it helps to break tackles, & stuff like that. i hear it is better to have a strong than a weak one.

 

-OZ-

Footballguy
Just keep in mind, that this "lock" for the HOF rates lower than Miller and Troupe. FWIW, I like both of them a lot, but last I checked they weren't on par with Gates.

Right now, that's where I'd rank him, in the same tier with those two.

Something like

1: Gates

2: Shockey, Gonzalez, Heap

3: Witten, Crumpler, Miller, Cooley, Troupe, Davis

4: McMichael, Watson, Winslow

5: Smith, Clark, Stevens, Hilton

 

Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
you convinced me... there must be no possible connection between strength & tackle breaking ability...

have you ever heard of this thing some smart guys on the east coast have been busy inventing... its called a STIIIFF ARM, i think. :) it helps to break tackles, & stuff like that. i hear it is better to have a strong than a weak one.
:rolleyes: Jim Brown never lifted weights and he had one of the best stiff arm's in NFL history...
lets get back on point... you seemed to be making the point that it makes no difference if you are weak or strong for breaking tackles... this is obviously an untenable position, so it doesn't surprise me that you would want to shift the debate to more defensible ground.whether or not brown lifted weights or not is a SEPARATE issue from whether he was strong or not... brown was in a different era where it wasn't common to lift weights like today... but his strength transcended eras... you can just look at the film & he was UNMISTAKABLY strong.

it is possible to lift weights & be strong or not be strong

it is possible to NOT lift weights & be strong or not be strong

davis falls into the category of players that lift weightsw... AND is strong... :)

imo, 33 reps equates to being pretty strong...

now maybe brown or bo jackson (who also claimed to never lift weights) were just as strong without lifting weights...

the point i was trying to make is... strength correlates with tackle breaking ability...

NOTHING you have brought up disputes that point... or really even attempted to...

whether brown got strong by lifting weights or he was naturally strong... he was strong... that, NATURAL strength in his case, helped him to break tackles.

* edit/add - just because you don't lift weights... or have poor strength measurables... doesn't NECESSARILY mean you have natural jim brown/bo jackson strength. :)

 
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Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
in saying davis is strong, & his strength measurables are an indication of that strength... you seem to have misinterpreted that as my saying he has weak legs... i'm pretty sure he has strong legs, too (monster squat numbers)...

so now all of a sudden do you like him because he fits your criteria? :)

in your opinion... all things being equal... lets say you could have same speed (quickness, agility, athleticism) no matter what... would you rather be strong or weak... for the purpose of escaping the jam? :) not changing the subject, but escaping the jam is something many young WRs struggle with in trying to get a clean release & be in the right spot at right time for timing patterns...

if a 180 lb CB tries to jam davis... they are going to pull back a BLOODY STUMP! :) there is no conceivable way your convoluted logic can spin doctor that point into why it would be bad or irrelevant for him to be strong for purposes of escaping jam...

unless you wanted to say there is diminishing return in being so muscle bound you become stiff & lose coordination... in which case you would be wrong in the instance of davis, as he is clearly a fluid athlete (& that qualifier was mentioned above already... ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL... every other attribute the same).

 
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Imedos

Footballguy
Just keep in mind, that this "lock" for the HOF rates lower than Miller and Troupe. FWIW, I like both of them a lot, but last I checked they weren't on par with Gates.
And exactly how much should be read into those "ratings" anyway. Interesting to look at, but I don't put much stock into them.Here's what's important: Davis is projected to go very high in the first round, for a position that is an afterthought for a lot of teams, in what is supposed to be a relatively strong draft. That says a lot more to me than even his really impressive combine.

What was Gates rating btw?

 

Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
i didn't bring up legs at first... i wasn't assuming you thought he has weak legs... is that what you thought? if so, i'm pretty sure you would be wrong...

i also never said that upper body strength was the SOLE attribute that enables one to be better at breaking tackles... football isn't that simplistic... life isn't that simplistic... seemingly only your logic is that simplistic...

why don't we start a new thread, as this has become a hijack...

look for it...

it will be called the vernon davis is strong thread... :)

 

cstu

Footballguy
in saying davis is strong, & his strength measurables are an indication of that strength... you seem to have misinterpreted that as my saying he has weak legs... i'm pretty sure he has strong legs, too (monster squat numbers)...
QUOTE(Bob_Magaw @ Mar 31 2006, 08:22 PM) i brought up strength more in context of making him more explosive & dangerous in open field... not too many CBs are going to bench 500 lbs = more likely for him to break tackles = more yards = more TDs...QUOTE(Bob_Magaw @ Mar 31 2006, 08:46 PM) have you ever heard of this thing some smart guys on the east coast have been busy inventing... its called a STIIIFF ARM, i think. it helps to break tackles, & stuff like that. i hear it is better to have a strong than a weak one.

Initially you were claiming bench press numbers and arm strength equates to tackle breaking ability, stiff arms and explosiveness in open field running. Now you are changing your story to agree with what I said about those being leg strength...why not just admit to your mistake in thinking that way and give credit where it is due in the discussion?
:rolleyes:
 
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Imedos

Footballguy
i didn't bring up legs at first... i wasn't assuming you thought he has weak legs...
It's not his legs. His legs are freakish.It's his feminine feet. Those dainty things may look good in college ball( :rolleyes: ), but in the NFL there is no way they would hold up to NFL D. It would take 3 weeks max before coaches figure out to gameplan around his feet to take him out of the game.

Watch his feet in the highlights. They are scared.

 

Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
back to the point about scouts being way off that winslow had the potential to be great...

HOW many games again did winslow play in his entire career before you came to that patient, methodical & well thought out conclusion? :)

 

cstu

Footballguy
You can roll your eyes all you like, it won't change the fact that it is what he clearly stated over and over in this discussion...it wasn't until I corrected him on this being leg strength that he injected squats and strong legs into the discussion.
What's next - are you going to "command respect"? That's what the eye rolling is for.About your point, you are trying to hard. Davis obviously has strong legs to break tackles but his upper body is also strong enough to stiff arm. Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 
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Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
the sequence...

post 13... in response to wood's attempt to correct you that davis is more than just fast... you seem to be insistent on isolating one of his attributes (speed) at the expense of others, instead of taking a holistic view... not too many TEs bench 500 lbs, either... why wouldn't that be a distinguishing attribute separating him from most TEs, as well?

post 26... the same tedious refrain... speed IS his best attribute... because you said so... i don't even know where to start with the rest... i stated that his strength was a differentiating attribute, as well... you went off into a tangent & said that didn't make him a good blocker (i never said he was a good blocker... are gates & gonzo renowned for their crushing blocks? :) )... you then proceed to another weak point of remote relevance... because bosworth, mandarich & griffin were good in college & were abyssmal failures in pros... davis could be, too? did any of the three you mentioned break the strength, speed & vertical jump records for their position... TOGETHER? i don't know when the combine started... so hypothetically... if there was a combine then... do you think they could have... you then misread a point where i said that in ONE respect, i thought davis was more dangerous in the open field than gonzo... & you conflated that into thinking i said he was better period...

this seems to be a pattern with your "dialogue" (i use the term loosely) which will be repeated over & over... when someone wants to say that the situation might be a little more complex (ie - maybe there is more than one reason davis is a great prospect)... no, you have to insist it must be solely the attribute YOU think is most important... conversely, in a mirror opposite case, when i tried to make an isolated point, you got confused & weren't sensitive to the context... and you assumed wrongly i was making a blanket generalization when i wasn't...

you then compounded your error by making an absurd connection about the scouts being hasty with winslow... he is a third year player who has been involved in two games... TOTAL... his failure to live up to expectations so far is due to two grisly injuries... are the scouts supposed to be faulted because they weren't psychic & didn't predict he would break his leg & tear up his knee? if those injuries hadn't happened, are you CERTAIN he wouldn't have been as good as advertised? on what basis? i'd really enjoy hearing that explanation...

you then proceed to another formula with the willie mays question... OBVIOUSLY football is not the only sport where a talented player can be MULTITALENTED... and can have several very strong attributes, such that it is hard to disenatngle them & say... THIS ONE is the only important one... the others are incidental & peripheral... clearly you aren't so dull as to be completely devoid of an ability to GENERALIZE... use metaphors & analogies to shed light on a related area... it was a very straightforward point... rather than admit that you had no answer... you responded with a meaningless gesture that you aren't into baseball... refusing to answer a simple question you were perfectly able to address & understand... understood well enough to realize you would have had to concede the point...

post #28... i guess you needed to regroup, because you were seemingly incapable of formulating a coherent response... you reposted #26... :)

post #30... you seem to repeat your favorite debating trick... pull out something somebody said in isolation... & conflating it with a blanket generalization... because i mentioned that strength could come in handy in swatting away DBs... than surely i must be ruling out any possibility that leg drive could be a factor as well... you again compound the mistake by insisting that leg drive MUST be the ONLY factor in breaking tackles... a complete & utter lack of sensitivity to the complexities of the situation, which you think you "explain" by reducing a myriad of factors to ONE... lets try a thought experiment... lets bolt onto davis' legs the torso of a peewee leaguer who can't even put up one rep of 225 (hey, the kid is 10... what do you expect? :) )... which guy is harder to tackle for the DB... the whole davis... or the half davis legs/half peewee leaguer torso creature? in your world... must be the same... because it is obvious that tackle breaking ability ONLY comes from leg drive... that is the only possible place it could come from...

post #32... and now we really get into my favorite part of the debate... you conflate my contention that strength helps in tackle breaking... with your confused interpretation that i said WEIGHT LIFTING helps... you took from this because jim brown never lifted weights, this disproved the point that strength is an important component in tackle breaking... :) you painted yourself into a corner further by INSISTING that stiff arms must have nothing to do with upper body strength... but must come from leg drive & TECHNIQUE (there is a magic catch all word)... so again, in your world... some dude with an arm SO WEAK that he couldn't even pick up a milk carton... would all of a sudden be stiff arming guys like jim brown... JUST because he had strong legs & had mastered some secrets of the ancients pertaining to stiff arming. :)

post #35... again, seemingly at a loss, you resort to trotting out the same baseless assertions you already had before... which was precisely the point in dispute in the first place...

post #38... it seems to be dawning on you that your situation is hopeless... at this point you resort to misrepresenting what i said earlier... that my point is that tackle breaking came SOLELY from upper body strength... i think this is what they technically call crazy making... if one thing is clear during the course of the back & forth here... i have tried repeatedly, in my own thought & language used to express it... to not do violence to a complex situation by attempting to reduce it to some simplistic, single answer... yet clearly, that is your MO... than you accuse me of doing what you have blatantly, self-indulgently done every step of the way.

you seemingly get confused on another part... when i point out the obvious... to say davis is strong, that could also include strong legs (remember, you said strength wasn't an important attribute... it was only speed... whereas i was still focusing on strength IN ADDITION to speed)... the key word here is INCLUDE... include can bring in more than one attribute... i never agreed with you, which you attempted to distort, that leg strength is the SOLE attribute needed for tackle breaking... just that (LIKE UPPER BODY STRENGTH!!! :) ), it could be viewed as a COMPONENT in a process that is more complex than you are making it out to be... as usual, grossly oversimplifying things.

post #43... you backpedal incoherently on winslow... you claim you never said he didn't have potential... so why earlier take scouts who thought highly of him to task... you completely gloss over here WHY winslow failed to live up to expectations... which i suppose makes sense, as to do so would have refuted your own point.

posts #44 & 46... the tedious refrain of distort & misrepresent so others won't notice that your logic is so hopelessly twisted that it has now become impossible to extricate yourself from it.

i don't really like the tenor or the direction this has taken... but i think you haven't debated in good faith & you have misrepresented my point repeatedly, so i felt the need to clarify my position.

debating you is like debating somebody in quicksand... i make a point about strength helping with tacklebreaking... your rejoinder is appalingly irrelevant rejoinder that jim brown didn't lift weights... as if not lifting weights precluded him from being STRONG. :) than fully realizing he is strong, you went on to talk about how he had a good stiff arm... oblivious to the fact that you were making my point for me... strength (not delimited to only the kind gotten from lifting weights... that was YOUR confusion) is a component part, maybe even an important one, in tackle breaking...

nowhere did i EVER i say legs have nothing to do with tackle breaking (that would be absurd)... i started by objecting to YOUR assertion that it was ALL & ONLY about legs & has nothing to do with upper body... every step of the way i have tried to be inclusive & you have been exclusive)... so when i say, sure, legs are a factor... & davis has really strong legs :) ... that becomes twisted into i am now i am conceding your point...

just to be clear... if your "point" was that leg drive is the ONLY factor in tackle breaking... than i am far from agreeing with you...

in most cases here in shark pool, i appreciate a good debate... especially if both or several parties listen & are open to revising their opinions or thoughts... in your case, you seem to be heavily invested in a rigid position & way of looking things... when it is questioned, you then committ an even bigger expenditure of energy to DEFENDING that position... which wouldn't be so bad if you were right. :)

the problem is if you aren't right, the explanations that are used to explain the previous untenable ones can become increasingly unmanageable... maybe because they aren't moored or tethered to something real anymore... but completely revolving around your arguments based on confusions & misinterpretations of others stated positions, which you than defend, but then you need to defend your defenses, ad infinitum.

before copernicus & kepler, the ptolemaic view of cosmology held sway that the sun revolved around earth... the problem was, astronomical observation at the time was sophisticated enough that they noticed some wacky discrepancies in the movement of the planets if they were to persist in interpreting the evidence of their senses in such a way to fit into their, still unknown to them at the time... misguided theory...

but they weren't sophisticated enough (for a long time) to look for a more economical theory that explained the evidence better. :)

so for a while they employed a device called epicycles, which would reconcile the apparent crazy circling of the heavenly bodies with the starting premise that the sun revolved around the earth... but just as it was becoming more untenable to employ increasingly byzantine movements & patterns of epicycles... copernicus & kepler snapped the puzzle pieces into place that reinterpreted the evidence in light of a new premise...

your late in the debate arguments about arguments remind me of epicycles... i hope you find your inner copernicus & kepler...

except that... if you didn't like the willie mays analogy... your probably REALLY not going to like the astronomical one. :)

 
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Barry

Footballguy
ofcourse leg strength is more important. But to say upper body strength isn't an important factor in breaking tackles is crazy. Being able to push a tackler off of you before he can wrap up is a pretty good thing. I swear that 95% of the shark pool have never played the game.

 

EBF

Footballguy
In terms of playing style, he most reminds me of Kellen Winslow. Neither is particularly tall for a TE, but both guys have exceptional speed and quickness. Winslow is a better football player, but Davis is a better athlete.

 

Aaron Rudnicki

Keep Walking™
Staff member
In terms of playing style, he most reminds me of Kellen Winslow. Neither is particularly tall for a TE, but both guys have exceptional speed and quickness. Winslow is a better football player, but Davis is a better athlete.
:goodposting:
 

Biabreakable

Footballguy
As far as strength measurements go they are also indicators of lack of body fat thus metabolism and and endurance. I happen to think this is an indicator of a payer being motivated and driven to play near peak level of effort and intensity longer and more often.

This will probobly cause Davis to be able to get and create seperation from defenders more often than a player who does not have the same measurables. Although agility reflexes and awareness of defenders anticipation are factors as well.

Personaly I think Davis as well as Watson are going to be amoung the elite TEs in the near future. Watson sooner than Davis as Davis still will need to gain experience. As a long term prospect in TE required league I definitly think he is worth a early selection. How early is still dependent on specific team needs compared to other prospects.

In a redraft league I would not really count on Davis to be competitive with other more seasoned TE in 2006. Although it is possible and he is a sleeper canidate for teams that sluff the TE position. But I would not want to have him as my 1st option.

 

Demons

Footballguy
Vernon Davis is said to have 3% body fat. This indicates he is a gym rat, which is also indicated by his bench press numbers.

The other measurables, such as 40 time and vertical leap are telling indicators of potential.

But normally the most important factor to me is what he looks like on film and in person during games. Does he take over games? Does he require double and triple teams?

When a college player has all the measurables and has performed at a high level in college (against good defenses), that indicates he will perform at the NFL level.

Some of the posts above have answered the main question I had, which is what does the guy look like as a player.

Not only is he a player, but his measurables are off the charts for his position.

I have the 1.5 pick, and I am more convinced than ever that I will go with Davis, unless a RB slips or Vince Young gets drafted by the Raiders (I'm a Raiders fan).

 

Bob_Magaw

Footballguy
Vernon Davis is a cross between Kellen Winslow 2 and Ben Watson...as his best attribute is his speed.
He's got far more working for him than speed.
As do KW2 and Watson...that still doesn't change the fact that speed is Davis best attribute, as was stated. There are less than a handfull of TEs with the kind of speed Davis has...this is why it is by far his best attribute.
there may be NO TEs that have the kind of speed davis has... most scout & combine insider types were fairly certain no TE has ever run a 4.3 at the combine... watson reportedly has 4.4 speed, so he may be close...why single out one attribute such as speed with such an obviously well rounded player?

bethel johnson's best attribute is speed... unfortunately it is his ONLY attribute. :)

willie mays was one of the original five tool players... he could run, field, throw, hit for average & power... what was his best attribute?

attempting to DEFINE what davis is, in too narrowly constrained a sense, loses sight of his OVERALL athleticism.

why not focus on his overall athleticism as a defining feature, taking a cue from mays in baseball?

he is faster than most CBs, bigger than most LBs... & as jason alluded to, jumped over 40" & did something like 33 reps (he reportedly benches about 500 lbs)...

another way i would put this... with his elite package of overall skills (hands & route running were also mentioned), even if he ran a 4.5 or a 4.6, he would still probably be #1 TE prospect with a bullet... assuming he still kept his other measurables... honing in on speed to the exclusion of everything else could lose sight of that.

another huge differentiating factor & attribute in his favor is how dangerous he is in the open field when the ball is in his hands. when he isn't running away from DBs (he does this often :) ), he looks like a man among boys in the secondary... a lot of highlights show 2-3 DBs are needed to bring him down...

he runs like a man possessed with the ball, & really looks to punish DBs & attack downfield... in this respect, he looks gates-like... & imo superior to gonzo...
The OP asked to rate Davis...and I did. Again, Davis is somewhere between a Winslow 2 and a Watson. I listed his best attribute...speed...because it is his best attribute. Again, there is less than a handfull of NFL TEs with his kind of rare speed. I never said there was less than a handfull with Davis exact 40 numbers from the NFL combine. Note the words I used...kind of speed, big difference. Davis kind of speed would extend into the upper 4.4's, as any TE with this kind of speed is gonna be able to get behind most NFL defenses. That is why this kind of speed is a huge attribute amongst NFL TEs. Both Winslow 2 and Watson had Davis kind of rare speed for a TE entering the NFL draft. I know Winslow 2 ran a 4.55 at the combine, or something of the like, but he has clocked in the 4.4's in the past...It seems pretty obvious to me with this being the Shark Pool, that most guys would understand that with Davis being discussed in numerous posts already here as a likely top 10 draft pick, that Davis obviously has other skills. Most here have probably read what you guys have written about Davis combine numbers at least 10 times by now. I didn't feel the need to totally break down or DEFINE Davis as you attempt to infer...thus the short post listing his best attribute and who he falls between amongst current TEs.

Personally it is my belief that you guys get too much of your testosterone going over the combine's bench press. Yeah Davis is strong with the weights, but that doesn't equate to him finishing off his drive blocks or dominating, as one may infer from your references of his strength. As the most famous bench press guy in the NFL is Guard Larry Allen, who was a punishing and dominating drive blocker, who finished his blocks. So Davis strength in the bench press does not = blocking skills. As Davis has much work to do in this area. Davis is also very raw and his decision making abilities on the field does not come naturally at this point. And if Davis were consistantly running a 4.6 instead of a 4.4/4.3, he would likely drop far out of the top 10, trust me. Other college players who looked like men among boys in college were Brian Bosworth, Tony Mandarich and Archie Griffin to name a few...there is much more to it than being a dominant collegiate athlete.

You sliced bread and ice cream guys really crack me up. :lmao:

So you actually believe Davis is better than Gonzalez was and on par with Gates already, huh? The kid hasn't even strapped on his first NFL jock and he's already in the HOF here :D Well you guys said the same thing about Winslow 2 a couple years back and look how that turned out. Winslow 2 often looked lost on the NFL field before his injuries and everyone had him as a can't miss prospect who would surpass Shockey's rookie numbers easily. Maybe now you'll understand why I made the comparison of KW2, Watson and Davis. How about letting the kid (Davis) get his feet wet with the big boys before throwing his name around with Gates and Gonzalez...

As for Willie Mays and what he could do, no interest in Baseball here. Strictly Football :football:
check last paragraph before willie mays part...you are gloating & smirking about how winslow didn't turn out that well, that we should take from this davis might not either???

hey, if davis breaks his leg in a compound fracture in the second game of his career, than in his second offseason is doing wheelies on his motorcycle in a parking lot, hits the curb at speed, flips over the bike & blows out his knee... i'll admit you were right about davis, too.

BTW, what other blue chip prospect is going to suffer catastrophic injury in this years class, nostradamus? :)

what are you trying to say about the winslow looked lost part? you neglected to mention he only played two games... in his CAREER. :) so we are being too hasty in looking at the information available to us (including film, which we haven't discussed) & predicting he has a bright future... but yet it isn't ridiculous to make a negative inference on the scanty evidence you had about winslow... BEFORE he got injured.

* glad you are amused... i'm sure others are, too, but maybe not for the reason you think. you are as funny as a heart attack.

** when i talked about his strength correlating to tackle breaking, i never said that was the only factor responsible... you read WAY too much into that... here is a clue for you in the future... if that is what i mean... that is what i will say... SIMPLE? i'll use words like... strengtth (upper body) is ONLY factor important here... NO others are important... you will find nowhere did i say that here.

breathing is correlated for living with people... if a critically ill patient was being looked at by the doctor, he wouldn't be very good if he just said... well nurse, he is breathing, so our work is done here... NO, there may be countless more variables that need to be monitored, regulated, etc.

 
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