Where is the Male Image/Role Heading? (1 Viewer)

[glvsav37]

This is a topic born over a conversation that  @KarmaPolice and myself were having in the "Drag Queen Story Hour" thread. 
In debating the acceptance and idea of drag queens being paid to read to young children, naturally the conversation weaved it's way through LGBTQ and other men's sexual topics. 

One of the points that I raised was that I feel that the "Traditional, American male image and role in society" has been under some form of attack over the last few years and there has been a push to tame the Alpha personality. I used the term "emasculation" as in this idea that the traditional male personality is being "weeded out" in a way intentionally. You can read my response here

In it I cite this shift in society whereas the man does not need to be the bread winner any longer, feminism and the rise of females managing in the workplace. The reduction of the spirit of competition in traditionally boy-oriented youth sports. Male children disciplined in school for acting out in ways that are more biological than behavioral. And overall, the idea where we have created a society where the "hunter" role has been diminished and we are living a more homogeneous life between the sexes. 

Now is that a bad thing? IDK. However, given the context of the original conversation posted in a thread about men dressing as women in front of children, the topic is worth discussing. I don't want to get into a morality debate over same sex attraction and lifestyle is good or bad, but studies have show that the LGTBQ/fluid/non-binary identifying population is topping over 20% in the US, specifically in the young adult demo. IMO, something is influencing that beyond just biology. Yes, you can say that society acceptance helps that number be truer than in the past, but that brings me back to the original title of the thread. 

I also pointed out that we are experiencing more "female led relationships" whereas the traditional male role is played by the mother and the father has taken a beta position in the household. I used the example in the DQ thread of videos posted where the wife is interviewed defending the situation and the husband is just off to the side silently nodding to her. A very small act but I know a few men who are in relationships like this where they have little to no say. 

The next question would be, was the "Traditional American Male Role" all that great to begin with? Again, IDK. But IMO, the "Traditional Male Image/Role" was one of the breadwinner, hunter, visible head of the household. He may have had an office job but could still be found tuning up  the car engine on the weekend with a cold beer nearby. He may not have had a lot of options on politics or how the house was decorated, but when you needed life advice he could give you it. But to some, he also could be disengaged with the family, or too heavy of a disciplinarian. 

Why I bring KarmaPolice into this is that my post struck a nerve with him (its cool, we hugged it out), and he debated that we are better today b/c men and fathers are more overall loving and involved with the family unit then in the past. You can read his reply here. Now I 100% agree with him on many of his points. I'm sure if we lined up our days, his family and my family would pretty much align—we share things like shopping, taking kids to sports/events, etc. 

But larger picture, the point of my post was biologically, are male and female roles more important then we figured and is it having an effect on the sexual non-conformity issues we are looking at today. And I say "issues" not to minimize the LGTBQ community, but more to highlight the rise in numbers of the members of it and its long term effects on society. Until we a growing kids in a lab, we still need the population to reproduce effectively and so far thats between a M/F process. 

Bringing biology into this, studies have shown that young male testosterone levels are dropping at an alarming rate. Most of it seems to be due to inactivity and poor diets. But back to my original point, have we been trying to tame young boys natural need to engage in more masculine activities like wresting, and competition and just out getting dirty and bruised up? We've replaced it participation accolades (vs the desire to actually win at something), taking contact out of sports and automatically suspending a kid b/c he makes a "pew pew" sound with a finger gun.  

Similarly, other studies show increases in testosterone levels when the male head is in the hunter/head of the house mode vs "nurture" mode. 

Is testosterone a good thing? I'm no scientist, but it seems like this country was built and defended on it by mostly men who were willing to jump out of airplanes into a firefight and guys walking on 6 inch wide I-beams 40 stories above ground. 

 

[glvsav37]

For the sake of length of the OP, I clipped this for posting here. This is my view of my father growing up:

I don't use the word "privileged" often, but for the sake of this topic I will. I'm 48 now (so 1970-80's kid) grew up pretty privileged by most standards. White, middle class, M/F parent household, dad was the breadwinner for most of my youth then mom went to work when we were older. Reflecting on my male role models, my dad was a hard working milk route driver. He owned the business and went to work at midnight, sometimes in really #### NorthEast winter conditions, but the job needed to get done. He was a Marine veteran, volunteering for tours in Vietnam, and from the photos I saw was a bad-### infantryman, shirtless with the big M-60 rifle and bandolier of bullets across his chest. (for clarity, I do not own a gun or rifle, don't care to, but I post that b/c this was the image of my father from his youth that I saw in photo back in a time where soldiers were revered as heroes). He worked long hours but still had time to coach my youth sports and take the annual family vacation. He wasn't a drinker or abuser but he was the discipline in the house, not to be F'ed with when he was mad. That said, I have a relationship with him, they live close by, but to this day I find it hard to have conversations with him one on one b/c he was not that 'lets get ice cream and talk" type father. Conversations about life were mom's job. 

Similarly, his father was an even "harder nut to crack." Very little to no emotion shown at all, but even into his 60's and 70's was out cutting down logs on his big property up in the woods of Maine.  He smoked his cigars and always seemed to be humming some "bum-bumpta bum"  Sinatra sounding song in his head. We could drive the 6 hours from NY to Maine without him saying a word, but I knew when we got there he would teach me to set up camp, light a fire and appreciate being out in the woods as guys. Eventually my father and him got into a huge family business disagreement around my uncle, my dads brother, who was more of a playboy type—only person I knew who was divorced back then—and never saw my grand father again b/c of it. 

My mother's father left the family when my mom was a child so I never knew him. 

Other male role models in my life were people like football coaches and neighbors. 
 

 

[The Commish]

This is rather simple for me.  I don't care where "society" is going with this.  I follow my beliefs and the examples provided me as I was growing up when guiding my family and determining the role model I need to be for my kids.  I know it's cliche but I REALLY do take the "what would Jesus do" approach in 99% of the situations.

 

[Godsbrother]

I 

Similarly, other studies show increases in testosterone levels when the male head is in the hunter/head of the house mode vs "nurture" mode. 
 

I don't know the answer but just to be safe I've been sun tanning my balls 

 

[moleculo]

I think your responses will vary, based on local politics/society and personal experiences.

I don't see evidence of emasculation... at all.  At least, not how I perceive it.  Of course, I have daughters so it's hard for me to speak about raising young men these days, but I have met some of the neighborhood boys and guys that hang around my girls, and I don't get that vibe.  They play sports, competitively.  football, basketball, baseball, wrestling.  By the time you get to the MS/HS, the participation trophy thing is done, and kids are just as competitive as they were when I was a young'un. 

Yes, they spend too much time playing video games.  I heard that same thing 30 years ago.  But overall, my experience is that HS aged guys are just as "manly" as ever.

I would note that, again, my experience is limited to the those around me.  That experience includes coaching the MS and HS wrestling team.  I probably don't deal with a representative cross-section.

 

[Jayrod]

Something is very wrong with how boys/men are developing in our society today in comparison to women.

Data suggests that the following things are facts (and ultimately point to serious problems among boys/men):

• Boys graduate HS less often - even at the earliest of levels, female graduation rates are 6 points higher than males
  
• The college gender gap is widening - it is about 60/40 in favor of females
  
• Men are more likely to commit suicide than women - figures come in around 3.5x more likely
  
• Men are more likely to die on the job - Over 12x more likely on average over the last 17 years
  
• There is a large health gap - Although this has improved recently (probably due to decreased conventional war), but there is still a large gap
  

 

[formerfourdigit]

So your OG post has a section thats pretty offensive stereotype.  I think many fathers that would take exception.  There's been a ton of behavioral studies on how to raise children to be "not gay" and I think pretty much every single one has been shown to be BS. 

"The data in the BaYaka/Bondongo study are correlational, meaning the researchers do not know if good sharers’ generous behavior leads to low levels of testosterone, or that low levels of testosterone lead to increased sharing. In previous research, Gettler and other anthropologists have demonstrated that testosterone levels drop significantly when men become fathers. "

I've given up the idea that my kids (one cis one trans) owe me anything other than to figure out how to be self-dependent and self-sustaining.  They definitely don't have the burden of populating the planet with the next generation of consumers.  America is way more invested in figuring out how to get kids to eat chicken byproducts than they are determining a healthy diet; theres a few places that banned like 128oz sodas to much chagrin about muh freedoms.  It would be interesting to pursue environmental causes but I'm sure it will take time for that research to prove anything.  There's been several studies about exposure to plastics being a culprit which is way more likely to be causal since now microplastics are everywhere. 

 

[shader]

This is rather simple for me.  I don't care where "society" is going with this.  I follow my beliefs and the examples provided me as I was growing up when guiding my family and determining the role model I need to be for my kids.  I know it's cliche but I REALLY do take the "what would Jesus do" approach in 99% of the situations.

This.  There's no way to fix "society".  But you can choose your own role models for yourself and be the kind of father/male you want to be.

 

[formerfourdigit]

Something is very wrong with how boys/men are developing in our society today in comparison to women.

Data suggests that the following things are facts (and ultimately point to serious problems among boys/men):

• Boys graduate HS less often - even at the earliest of levels, female graduation rates are 6 points higher than males
  
• The college gender gap is widening - it is about 60/40 in favor of females
  
• Men are more likely to commit suicide than women - figures come in around 3.5x more likely
  
• Men are more likely to die on the job - Over 12x more likely on average over the last 17 years
  
• There is a large health gap - Although this has improved recently (probably due to decreased conventional war), but there is still a large gap
  

I would be super interested to see how this data correlates with other facets of a kids upbringing, like parent demographics, where they are raised, were they exposed to any DQHS /guns etc. 

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Something is very wrong with how boys/men are developing in our society today in comparison to women.

Data suggests that the following things are facts (and ultimately point to serious problems among boys/men):

• Boys graduate HS less often - even at the earliest of levels, female graduation rates are 6 points higher than males
  
• The college gender gap is widening - it is about 60/40 in favor of females
  
• Men are more likely to commit suicide than women - figures come in around 3.5x more likely
  
• Men are more likely to die on the job - Over 12x more likely on average over the last 17 years
  
• There is a large health gap - Although this has improved recently (probably due to decreased conventional war), but there is still a large gap
  

With the possible exception of suicide levels, don't all of these raw numbers seem to refute the premise of this thread?   That is that males are still interested in male things that make them less likely to finish/continue school.  More likely to have a physical (thus by extension dangerous) job.  And guys are still guys that don't run to the doctors for every little sniffle (at their own peril).  And how much of the suicide is because men aren't fitting [or failing at] the traditional definition of men?

Maybe my "jump to conclusions" take is all wrong if I really understood the data (I just accepted your raw numbers).  Maybe.  But just from a million foot view this is how I would take the raw data.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

This is only tangentially related to the OP's point, but in my experience there has been a large and very obvious decline in the academic preparation of male undergraduates over the past 20 years or so.  Obviously there are lots of brilliant male students and some female lunkheads, but there is kind of gulf separating men and women in terms of both their academic performance and especially their engagement with extra- and co-curricular activities. 

I don't really have any idea what's causing that, and obviously it doesn't have anything to do with drag queens.  And I want to emphasize that it isn't just a case of women gaining equality or anything like that -- men seem to be in worse shape objectively, not just in a relative sense.  

 

[knowledge dropper]

Close down the gyms and you get a bunch of puny girly men.  Who didn’t see that coming?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I agree that the way we educate children isn’t great in a lot of instances, particularly with respect to boys.

I disagree with the “emasculation” narrative as a bad thing.  My perspective is that the toxic masculinity of previous generations was much worse for humanity than what’s happening now.

 

[the moops]

Close down the gyms and you get a bunch of puny girly men.  Who didn’t see that coming?

Close down what now?

 

[Zow]

Close down the gyms and you get a bunch of puny girly men.  Who didn’t see that coming?

Wat

 

[sho nuff]

With the possible exception of suicide levels, don't all of these raw numbers seem to refute the premise of this thread?   That is that males are still interested in male things that make them less likely to finish/continue school.  More likely to have a physical (thus by extension dangerous) job.  And guys are still guys that don't run to the doctors for every little sniffle (at their own peril).  And how much of the suicide is because men aren't fitting [or failing at] the traditional definition of men?

Maybe my "jump to conclusions" take is all wrong if I really understood the data (I just accepted your raw numbers).  Maybe.  But just from a million foot view this is how I would take the raw data.

Adding to the guys don’t go to the doctor…I wonder what part of male suicide being higher is due to men being less apt to seek counseling and help.  Part of it also relates to methods chosen by men vs women as far as effectiveness IIRC.

 

[Mookie]

 One of the points that I raised was that I feel that the "Traditional, American male image and role in society" has been under some form of attack over the last few years

Seems like they have been doing most of the attacking, and that's the problem.

 

[glvsav37]

So your OG post has a section thats pretty offensive stereotype.  I think many fathers that would take exception.  There's been a ton of behavioral studies on how to raise children to be "not gay" and I think pretty much every single one has been shown to be BS. 

"The data in the BaYaka/Bondongo study are correlational, meaning the researchers do not know if good sharers’ generous behavior leads to low levels of testosterone, or that low levels of testosterone lead to increased sharing. In previous research, Gettler and other anthropologists have demonstrated that testosterone levels drop significantly when men become fathers. "

I've given up the idea that my kids (one cis one trans) owe me anything other than to figure out how to be self-dependent and self-sustaining.  They definitely don't have the burden of populating the planet with the next generation of consumers.  America is way more invested in figuring out how to get kids to eat chicken byproducts than they are determining a healthy diet; theres a few places that banned like 128oz sodas to much chagrin about muh freedoms.  It would be interesting to pursue environmental causes but I'm sure it will take time for that research to prove anything.  There's been several studies about exposure to plastics being a culprit which is way more likely to be causal since now microplastics are everywhere. 

apologies, I didn't intend to come off offensive and I never intended to infer that we "raise kids NOT to be gay" 
I am perfectly fine with the idea that some kids will grow up gay and others will not. 

My point primarily was rooted in the idea that the numbers of those who identify as part of the LGBTQ lifestyle are on a sharp incline. Handcuffing that with what I see as an effort to "tame down young boys" in the sense of limiting competitivism, activities, and behaviors early on are possibly having an effect on those numbers. Biologically, are there things that are effecting traditionally male biology, like dropping testosterone, that is making men explore things like drag queen culture and the desire to be more feminine?

But its not just about being gay or not, but in seemingly normal M/F relationships but where the identity roles are reversed and the female is leading the relationship and the male has taken the beta role. The examples I used were from the DQ thread where when justifying the need for DQ in schools, the mother was the one doing the talking and the male was just nodding in agreement almost as if he had no say in it. Obv I have no idea woh those people are, but I do have relationships where this is played out in almost every decision. 

 

 

[moleculo]

With the possible exception of suicide levels, don't all of these raw numbers seem to refute the premise of this thread?   That is that males are still interested in male things that make them less likely to finish/continue school.  More likely to have a physical (thus by extension dangerous) job.  And guys are still guys that don't run to the doctors for every little sniffle (at their own peril).  And how much of the suicide is because men aren't fitting [or failing at] the traditional definition of men?

Maybe my "jump to conclusions" take is all wrong if I really understood the data (I just accepted your raw numbers).  Maybe.  But just from a million foot view this is how I would take the raw data.

that's my take too. 

Is it a poor stereo-type that teen guys tend to be more "knuckleheads" than teen girls?  more likely to get themselves in trouble, make rash, impuslve decisions like drop out of school, etc? 

As far as college, there has been a push towards the trades instead of college.  Well, the trades are HEAVILY dominated by men, and so that seems that push would draw more guys out of the academic field as well.

Of course, that only explains why there is a gap...it doesn't explain why the gap is getting wider.

 

[moleculo]

This is only tangentially related to the OP's point, but in my experience there has been a large and very obvious decline in the academic preparation of male undergraduates over the past 20 years or so.  Obviously there are lots of brilliant male students and some female lunkheads, but there is kind of gulf separating men and women in terms of both their academic performance and especially their engagement with extra- and co-curricular activities. 

I don't really have any idea what's causing that, and obviously it doesn't have anything to do with drag queens.  And I want to emphasize that it isn't just a case of women gaining equality or anything like that -- men seem to be in worse shape objectively, not just in a relative sense.  

could it be that there has been more of a push to get women into college?  I'm thinking more about STEM and I know that's not your field, but could that be related?  In other words, it's not a function of keeping guys down as it is elevating women.

 

[djmich]

examples I used were from the DQ thread where when justifying the need for DQ in schools, the mother was the one doing the talking and the male was just nodding in agreement almost as if he had no say in it. Obv I have no idea woh those people are, but I do have relationships where this is played out in almost every decision. 

 

I think that overall you are on to something in terms of the role of men changing and men changing their behaviors (some good and some bad).

I don’t think letting the wife do the talking in these situations is always the best barometer though.  I think many let their wives do the talking simply because it’s a great way to let them release their pent up anger and frustrations and you really don’t want to interfere, especially if they are being effective.  If they are losing the argument then you better chip in.

 

[Manster]

Ahhhh, the wussification of our society.

I feel fortunate in that I have a girl, and a boy, and both are very much girl, and boy.  My wife and I dont subscribe to the prevailing social stuff that is infecting our society.  That's about all I have to say about it.

 

[Stoneworker]

It's part of a cultural shift toward androgyny.

Emasculating males is also a more expeditiously means of leveling the opportunity playing field through tearing down one gender vs. strictly elevating the other.

 

[Captain Cranks]

This is rather simple for me.  I don't care where "society" is going with this.  I follow my beliefs and the examples provided me as I was growing up when guiding my family and determining the role model I need to be for my kids.  I know it's cliche but I REALLY do take the "what would Jesus do" approach in 99% of the situations.

I just had a conversation with my father, a faithful born again Christian, who expressed this same attitude. Paraphrasing here, but he said 'Jesus didn't teach us to spend our time and energy being anxious about the world."

 

[formerfourdigit]

apologies, I didn't intend to come off offensive and I never intended to infer that we "raise kids NOT to be gay" 
I am perfectly fine with the idea that some kids will grow up gay and others will not. 

My point primarily was rooted in the idea that the numbers of those who identify as part of the LGBTQ lifestyle are on a sharp incline. Handcuffing that with what I see as an effort to "tame down young boys" in the sense of limiting competitivism, activities, and behaviors early on are possibly having an effect on those numbers. Biologically, are there things that are effecting traditionally male biology, like dropping testosterone, that is making men explore things like drag queen culture and the desire to be more feminine?

But its not just about being gay or not, but in seemingly normal M/F relationships but where the identity roles are reversed and the female is leading the relationship and the male has taken the beta role. The examples I used were from the DQ thread where when justifying the need for DQ in schools, the mother was the one doing the talking and the male was just nodding in agreement almost as if he had no say in it. Obv I have no idea woh those people are, but I do have relationships where this is played out in almost every decision. 

 

Probably like everyone here I have a ton of anecdotal evidence about parenting outcomes.  I know kids benefit from good male role models but we probably disagree on what those look like.  It wasn't necessary to apologize.  I am sensitive as it hits close to home.  There's a definite undertone about who's a real Mike Pence style man in all this but it's been there forever.  Our parents thought we weren't real men when we listened to Prince, Michael Jackson and Motley Crue.   They got flak from their parents for not wanting to go off to Vietnam.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/389792/lgbt-identification-ticks-up.aspx

The majority of the Bill Maher 20% identify as bi, and the majority of those are (75% I think I saw) girls.  For sake of discussion.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

could it be that there has been more of a push to get women into college?  I'm thinking more about STEM and I know that's not your field, but could that be related?  In other words, it's not a function of keeping guys down as it is elevating women.

Women going into STEM isn't making men stupid and disengaged.  That's something specific to men.

Edit: "Stupid" is an exaggeration, but only a little bit.  It used to be that I would teach a class, and a bunch of eager women would sit up front and sleepy, ballcap-wearing dudes would sit in the very back.  Exam day rolls around and sleepy ballcap guy murders my exam and wrecks the curve for everybody else.  He's a really bright guy who just keeps to himself.  It's not like that anymore.  Now sleepy ballcap guy gets blown away and the eager female students are the ones setting the curve.  There are exceptions of course, but the difference in academic performance is really noticeable.  

 

[The Commish]

I just had a conversation with my father, a faithful born again Christian, who expressed this same attitude. Paraphrasing here, but he said 'Jesus didn't teach us to spend our time and energy being anxious about the world."

There's not a lot we have control over in the world at large.  The sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can focus on the things we can control.  That's where real difference/change is made.  Focus on getting things right at home.  That's the best that you can do.  It's what my dad did and what my grandfather did.  It's what I do with my kids.  There's a LOT of discussion in our house.  No topics are off the table, but generally speaking, our kids drive the conversation.

 

[BladeRunner]

There's not a lot we have control over in the world at large.  The sooner we recognize that, the sooner we can focus on the things we can control.  That's where real difference/change is made.  Focus on getting things right at home.  That's the best that you can do.  It's what my dad did and what my grandfather did.  It's what I do with my kids.  There's a LOT of discussion in our house.  No topics are off the table, but generally speaking, our kids drive the conversation.

Can you make BladeRunner the next topic then?  It's going to be a fascinating conversation. 

It will be the best and biggest conversation ever.  You'll see.

 

[KarmaPolice]

With the possible exception of suicide levels, don't all of these raw numbers seem to refute the premise of this thread?   That is that males are still interested in male things that make them less likely to finish/continue school.  More likely to have a physical (thus by extension dangerous) job.  And guys are still guys that don't run to the doctors for every little sniffle (at their own peril).  And how much of the suicide is because men aren't fitting [or failing at] the traditional definition of men?

Maybe my "jump to conclusions" take is all wrong if I really understood the data (I just accepted your raw numbers).  Maybe.  But just from a million foot view this is how I would take the raw data.

I think the suicide number is also die by suicide stats, not attempts.  Men are far more likely to have guns, hence a much higher success rate.  

Also in relation to another book I was reading about the differences in countries and their cultures an the ramifications of that.   IMO the downside of our highly individualistic society that largely revolves around work is that there are ramifications like we see in these numbers with men when jobs dry up, aren't able to provide those typical roles, etc..   It hits harder than in other counties when the American Dream can't be realized (and IMO it gets harder and harder to get there as well).  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Adding to the guys don’t go to the doctor…I wonder what part of male suicide being higher is due to men being less apt to seek counseling and help.  Part of it also relates to methods chosen by men vs women as far as effectiveness IIRC.

I think this is a factor as well.   Men don't talk about our feelings, dammit!!!   

 

[KarmaPolice]

Ahhhh, the wussification of our society.

I feel fortunate in that I have a girl, and a boy, and both are very much girl, and boy.  My wife and I dont subscribe to the prevailing social stuff that is infecting our society.  That's about all I have to say about it.

It's part of a cultural shift toward androgyny.

Emasculating males is also a more expeditiously means of leveling the opportunity playing field through tearing down one gender vs. strictly elevating the other.

I brought up the example in the other thread, and I would be curious how you two would handle it:.   

My son's 4k had a rack of clothes and uniforms, and there were a few times that I either saw him when I picked him up, or one of the teachers commented to me where he was either in a dress or a something like nurse outfit.   He also equally seemed to play with dolls more than the average boy.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

In my back an forth with glvsav in the other thread, I was curious to ask the masses if we did a thread like this if they have a sort of checklist of what a man is, and what their roles should be.   I assume if you look around and see the wussification of the country, you have things in mind that men are doing/not doing that make them wusses.  

(I fully expect to be described in at least 1/2 the things listed  ) 

 

[sho nuff]

As for the roles we play...ours have always been all over the place in our home.

I have always been the main cook in the house.  My wife's mother did not cook all that much and she never really learned.  I learned in my teens from my mom and my step dad.  There were times Id be helping start things before they were home from work.  Id even cook more than others in college as I found it way cheaper than always going out like others did. Fast forward to getting married and my job out of college I had more flexible hours...so I went in earlier in the morning and was off earlier in the afternoon.  She went straight to one of the big Accounting firms and worked longer hours...plus not having much of a clue how to cook.  So I was already cooking for us long before we had kids.

Then we got to a point we wanted one of us to stay home with the kids for a few years as we were comfortable on one salary.  She made a little more than me...but we would have been fine on my salary at the time.  But she also didn't want to get too far behind if she took more time out of the job market.  She had worked her way into nice positions and liked her job then much more than I had liked mine at the time (plus we were going through a transistion in my job that was making me already look elsewhere anyway).

So my kids grew up seeing me home, cooking, taking care of things traditionally would have been a mother doing rather than the dad.  Walked them to school, took them to preschool...took my daughter to a class at the zoo...took her to dance (hell, I still do her hair for competitions because my wife would get flustered trying that).  It also gave me the opportunity to coach my son's soccer team a few years and coach basketball a couple seasons.  Volunteered for 6 years in their middle school.  And saw me partner with a former coworker on a business for a few years before stepping back into a more traditional job (though, still not full time as we all became accustomed to me being available to drive kids around places and be ready to make dinner and so on (kids went to a middle school that was not in our zone...so no bus, only car pooling...daughter will be similar next year at a non-zoned high school...so more carpool).

Wife and I share duties around the house...which has been helped that her job transitioned to a few days a week at home prior to the pandemic...and now full time working at home except for a few instances she needs to go to the office.

Though...I saw similar dynamics in my own home...my mother made more than my step dad.  They shared in cooking and cleaning (though he typically did all the laundry...actually likes doing laundry...I don't understand that one).  

My wife was different...her dad was the main bread winner...didn't really cook or clean...and my mother in law did almost everything around the house.  He passed a few years ago...there were previous conversations when my MIL was in bad health for a few years that if she had gone first, he would have been lost as she did everything in the house for him.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Sho's situation is similar to mine, but my wife makes way more than I do (not always, but for sure currently) so it's a no brainer that I take on a lot of those roles.     For each kid, I was also the stay at home parent for a few years b/c that was important for us.    There are "traditional" roles that we do slip into - ie, she is still the caretaker/cuddler when the kids are sick or hurt. 

That said, we are always still a unified front for decisions, discipline, etc.   

 

[Stoneworker]

I brought up the example in the other thread, and I would be curious how you two would handle it:.   

My son's 4k had a rack of clothes and uniforms, and there were a few times that I either saw him when I picked him up, or one of the teachers commented to me where he was either in a dress or a something like nurse outfit.   He also equally seemed to play with dolls more than the average boy.  

Re: the bold. So he doesn't live with you?

Personally I'd just have a casual conversation with him primarily just listening. Try to understand what's going on in his head. Also try and learn more from the teachers. Go from there.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Re: the bold. So he doesn't live with you?

Personally I'd just have a casual conversation with him primarily just listening. Try to understand what's going on in his head. Also try and learn more from the teachers. Go from there.

When I picked him up from school, sometimes he would be playing and that's when I would see it.  I can't remember him doing similar at home, but we also didn't have anything like that accessible.  

But overall, I would say that both kids early on showed an interest in both traditionally male and female things.  Ie my 7 year old loves pink and sparkly dresses and also loves dinosaurs and construction vehicles.  She could (and has) watched an excavator digging for hours.  

 

[sho nuff]

Sho's situation is similar to mine, but my wife makes way more than I do (not always, but for sure currently) so it's a no brainer that I take on a lot of those roles.     For each kid, I was also the stay at home parent for a few years b/c that was important for us.    There are "traditional" roles that we do slip into - ie, she is still the caretaker/cuddler when the kids are sick or hurt. 

That said, we are always still a unified front for decisions, discipline, etc.   

Oh...she made way more when we first came out of college.  But she got out of the big public firm (and at the right time...she was with Arthur Andersen and left about 6 months before the news hit on them an Enron).  When she left her new job still paid her well...but raises were slower and I had a few good years that jumped me up a bit promotion wise and some certifictions hit some bonuses for me.  Made it closer for sure.  

Im pretty good while they are sick...but she has been more the one they will confide some stuff in more than me.  Or talk more about feelings and all with her more so than me.

I wish I could get rid of the hair duty though.  Her dance team made the nationals competition here in Nashville and of course her dances are on 3 different days.  So three separate days of getting her hair up to stay for a few hours.  Sucks.

 

[Stoneworker]

When I picked him up from school, sometimes he would be playing and that's when I would see it.  I can't remember him doing similar at home, but we also didn't have anything like that accessible.  

But overall, I would say that both kids early on showed an interest in both traditionally male and female things.  Ie my 7 year old loves pink and sparkly dresses and also loves dinosaurs and construction vehicles.  She could (and has) watched an excavator digging for hours.  

It's interesting that he doesn't play with his sister's sparkly stuff. Is that not accessible? It would be interesting to see if her clothes/toys were equally accessible as the stuff at school.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Oh...she made way more when we first came out of college.  But she got out of the big public firm (and at the right time...she was with Arthur Andersen and left about 6 months before the news hit on them an Enron).  When she left her new job still paid her well...but raises were slower and I had a few good years that jumped me up a bit promotion wise and some certifictions hit some bonuses for me.  Made it closer for sure.  

Im pretty good while they are sick...but she has been more the one they will confide some stuff in more than me.  Or talk more about feelings and all with her more so than me.

I wish I could get rid of the hair duty though.  Her dance team made the nationals competition here in Nashville and of course her dances are on 3 different days.  So three separate days of getting her hair up to stay for a few hours.  Sucks.

  

2 things I can't do:  deal with vomit or hair.    I have tried with my daughter and her hair and just butcher it.  It's to the point now she teases me "I know Daddy, you are bald - what do you know about hair??"  and just gets her mom.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

It's interesting that he doesn't play with his sister's sparkly stuff. Is that not accessible? It would be interesting to see if her clothes/toys were equally accessible as the stuff at school.

Sorry, I should be more clear.   My son is the older one - currently 15.  My daughter is 7.     He didn't have stuff like that at home.  Looking back, I think he had more stuffed animals than normal and he seemed to lean towards Dora instead of Diego - things like that.  

 

[Stoneworker]

Sorry, I should be more clear.   My son is the older one - currently 15.  My daughter is 7.     He didn't have stuff like that at home.  Looking back, I think he had more stuffed animals than normal and he seemed to lean towards Dora instead of Diego - things like that.  

My bad. I assumed "4K" meant pre-school.

 

[KarmaPolice]

My bad. I assumed "4K" meant pre-school.

Yes, it did.  I was talking about 10-11 years ago when he was in 4k.  

 

[djmich]

I agree that the way we educate children isn’t great in a lot of instances, particularly with respect to boys.

I disagree with the “emasculation” narrative as a bad thing.  My perspective is that the toxic masculinity of previous generations was much worse for humanity than what’s happening now.

Is it required these days that toxic is always put in front of masculinity?  

Seems like the new norm is trending towards all things masculine are default bad or toxic.

Hard to think that will not lead to a male population that is more timid, less aggressive, more unsure.  I don’t think any of those things are good.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Is it required these days that toxic is always put in front of masculinity?  

Seems like the new norm is trending towards all things masculine are default bad or toxic.

Hard to think that will not lead to a male population that is more timid, less aggressive, more unsure.  I don’t think any of those things are good.

On the flip side, it's hard to look at demographics of who's doing the mass shootings, domestic violence, sexual predation, are serial killers, etc..   and think that it might be a good idea to either dampen that aggression or at least figure out ways to channel it that actually work.   

Just saying I get that reasoning and impulse not that all things masculine need to be eliminated.  

 

[djmich]

On the flip side, it's hard to look at demographics of who's doing the mass shootings, domestic violence, sexual predation, are serial killers, etc..   and think that it might be a good idea to either dampen that aggression or at least figure out ways to channel it that actually work.   

Just saying I get that reasoning and impulse not that all things masculine need to be eliminated.  

Why when you think masculine do you think mass shootings and serial killers

I can’t draw a correlation based in data but it seems a lot of the mass shootings, particularity by younger men is happening at the same time society is telling them they are toxic and need to repress their masculinity.

 

[massraider]

Hard to think that will not lead to a male population that is more timid, less aggressive, more unsure.  I don’t think any of those things are good.

Good for who? Other men? Men in general?

Why would anyone care if OTHER men are the alpha in their relationships, or if some other guy is timid?

 

[KarmaPolice]

Why when you think masculine do you think mass shootings and serial killers

I can’t draw a correlation based in data but it seems a lot of the mass showings, particularity by younger men is happening at the same time society is telling them they are toxic and need to repress their masculinity.

We weren't talking masculine in general, I was addressing your post about the "toxic" part.  IMO the "toxic" is the destructive/hyper agressive side of it, not all of it.  It's the negative outcome of those traits.  I don't always put the "toxic" in front of that word. 

They are getting more frequent, but mass shootings have been a thing for awhile, but those other things listed for sure aren't new - ie sexual predation and domestic violence.  

Maybe it's a bit of chicken and egg situation - are people trying to dampen that agression and negative traits because they get tired of those other things, or are those things getting worse as we take things away?     Simplistic example, but are "we" trying to stop boys from playing with guns because of the numbers involved in shootings, or is that aggression coming out in very negative ways because we are taking away rough play and toy guns?  

 

[djmich]

Good for who? Other men? Men in general?

Why would anyone care if OTHER men are the alpha in their relationships, or if some other guy is timid?

Sure other men, our sons…I assume we want them to be be happy and prosper?

Id like to see my son be aggressive, assertive, to not be afraid, to fight to protect his family, to want to win…at school, at work.  Is this now bad?

 

[djmich]

IMO the "toxic" is the destructive/hyper agressive side of it, not all of it.  It's the negative outcome of those traits.  

They are getting more frequent, but mass shootings have been a thing for awhile, but those other things listed for sure aren't new - ie sexual predation and domestic violence.  

Maybe it's a bit of chicken and egg situation - are people trying to dampen that agression and negative traits because they get tired of those other things, or are those things getting worse as we take things away?     Simplistic example, but are "we" trying to stop boys from playing with guns because of the numbers involved in shootings, or is that aggression coming out in very negative ways because we are taking away rough play and toy guns?  

KP im more fundamentally questioning why masculinity=toxic=mass murders and guns

Is that your view of what should be considered masculinity?  It’s seems like a pretty corrupted view and I can see why young boys don’t want to be masculine if that’s how society is now defining them.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

The thing that I've always wondered is why are the people that think men need to be alphas and who talk about the wussification of men always the whiniest little snowflakes that constantly complain about everything not being fair to them as straight white men?