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Where would you rank Owens amongst the WR's? (1 Viewer)

Has TO EVER started strong? I thought he was poster boy for the 3rd week "trade-for" guy.
I was going to bring that up, but I thought it would make my post more confusing. Yes, Owens has started slow in the past. But I think the reasons are 1) Mooch wanting to establish the run early and calling plays super conservatively, and 2) Owens getting in better shape as the season progressed. I can't imagine Owens coming into camp in poor shape (Ray) and I can't imagine Billick not using his new receiver early and often. So I see Owens as starting out strong early.
 
One point re: using a comparison of all WRs that switched QBs versus switched teams, be careful there.

Switching QBs is one component of switching teams, but far from the only major determinent. WRs that switch teams typically have to deal with the following factors:

New QB

New coaching staff
New offensive playbook and terminology
Relocation and aclimation to new city and surroundingsAll those play key roles. A WR can stay with the same team and have the same QB, but a new system and coaches could be brought in to alter the equation.

The problem, which we are in agreement on, with projecting WRs that change teams is that they not only deal with one major change in situation, but a host of them.
I hear ya, Jason. And I agree about the QB switch being only one component of a WR switching teams. What I'm trying to get at is the amount of weight that that compenent carries (probably should have started a different thread on this).
 
I really want to get worked up over this, but I can't take these people seriously after seeing Boldin and Johnson so consistently higher. Take your analysis glasses off, put down the book of stats, and realize that there are only a FEW...meaning under 10...in the histroy of the league that have as much talent and ability as TO. When TO wants to dominate he does. Last year he had poor numbers by his standards and it was clear he was disinterested in helping Garcia or the Niners. Now, with all the naysayers, I can't imagine Owens not blowing up. Billick will love stretching the field. Boller can actually throw that ball, unlike Garcia. You don't trade your top pick to line up a guy for 40 receptions a year.If I concede anything it will be that his total receptions go down. Billick even said it during his press conference yesterday...they will pound the ball with Lewis and dump to Heap, and when the D screws up, and they will, touchdown TO.But what the hell am I talking about. Clearly Boldin, with his position change, emergence of Bryant Johnson, drafting of Fitzgerald, and mighty Arizona's insertion of 6'4" 200lbs Sam Houston State product Josh McCown will clearly elevate Boldin above Owens and probably Moss.I just want to see someone take Boldin in a redraft with Owens still on the board. I think Sam Perkins will be a Hall of Famer too.

 
But what the hell am I talking about. Clearly Boldin, with his position change, emergence of Bryant Johnson, drafting of Fitzgerald, and mighty Arizona's insertion of 6'4" 200lbs Sam Houston State product Josh McCown will clearly elevate Boldin above Owens and probably Moss.I just want to see someone take Boldin in a redraft with Owens still on the board. I think Sam Perkins will be a Hall of Famer too.
I would draft Boldin over Owens if they were both available in the late fourth/early fifth, which is where I expect Boldin to go. But Owens will be taken long before that.
 
I really want to get worked up over this, but I can't take these people seriously after seeing Boldin and Johnson so consistently higher. Take your analysis glasses off, put down the book of stats, and realize that there are only a FEW...meaning under 10...in the histroy of the league that have as much talent and ability as TO. When TO wants to dominate he does. Last year he had poor numbers by his standards and it was clear he was disinterested in helping Garcia or the Niners. Now, with all the naysayers, I can't imagine Owens not blowing up. Billick will love stretching the field. Boller can actually throw that ball, unlike Garcia. You don't trade your top pick to line up a guy for 40 receptions a year.If I concede anything it will be that his total receptions go down. Billick even said it during his press conference yesterday...they will pound the ball with Lewis and dump to Heap, and when the D screws up, and they will, touchdown TO.But what the hell am I talking about. Clearly Boldin, with his position change, emergence of Bryant Johnson, drafting of Fitzgerald, and mighty Arizona's insertion of 6'4" 200lbs Sam Houston State product Josh McCown will clearly elevate Boldin above Owens and probably Moss.I just want to see someone take Boldin in a redraft with Owens still on the board. I think Sam Perkins will be a Hall of Famer too.
Here's the key to whether your theory works out (or has a chance to work out), will Ozzie do the right thing and give TO an extension that's close to what he would've gotten as a free agent or via the Eagles? If that answer is YES, I agree that TO could be a good camper and would at least warrant consideration in the top 10, but otherwise, he's not.But the point many of us have really tried to make is that someone in virtually every league will value TO in the top 3-5 as they always have, and he'll be gone if you aren't willing to take him at that range. And if that's the case, he won't be on any of my teams.
 
Well then maybe I am misinterpreting the subject of the post.Where would I rank Owens amongst the receivers?Pretty high in terms of where I think his end of the year production will dictate.Seemingly lower with respect to where I would draft him.That said I still don't think I take too many WRs before him. All this does is maybe put a bigger gap between Moss/MH/TH before I pickup Owens...but I would still rather take Owens before Boldin/Johnson/Horn/Moulds etc...

 
Well then maybe I am misinterpreting the subject of the post.Where would I rank Owens amongst the receivers?Pretty high in terms of where I think his end of the year production will dictate.Seemingly lower with respect to where I would draft him.That said I still don't think I take too many WRs before him. All this does is maybe put a bigger gap between Moss/MH/TH before I pickup Owens...but I would still rather take Owens before Boldin/Johnson/Horn/Moulds etc...
The original post, admittedly, requested a top-WR list down to TO.The thread has evolved well beyond that.IMO, in terms of talent alone, TO is a top-3 WR physical specimen who knows the game and must be planned for - even doubled - every time he takes the field.In terms of opportunity, however, I have serious doubts - you mentioned Boldin, and I believe his opp is in question, too with the move to SE.And, value - TO will be the least valuable WR on the board - as Jason mentioned, someone in your league will probably value him in the top 3 to 5 WRs, will take him very early, and will solve any problem of having to decide between him and Boldin, or any other receiver, even if you happen to have the other receiver ranked higher.Finally, my prediction for his success is 4 or 5 insane games of 100+ yards and/or multiple TDs. The rest of his games will be radically inconsistent, with a season of his lowest catch numbers in 5 years. This is especially true b/c Baltimore is not a "shootout" or "comeback" type of team - which seems to be one of the major factors for creating top-5 WRs - porous scoring defense. The Ravens do not have a porous scoring defense.
 
More examples:Chad Johnson's category . . .Randy Moss1999 w/George: 80-1433-112000 w/Culpepper: 77-1437-15Cris Carter1999 w/George: 90-1241-132000 w/Culpepper: 96-1274-9Terrell Owens1998 w/Young: 67-1097-141999 w/Garcia: 60-754-4Jerry Rice:1998 w/Young: 82-1157-91999 w/Garcia: 67-830-5Mushy Muhammad2000 w/Beurlein: 102-1183-62001 w/Weinke: 50-585-1 (but had naggng injury)Ed McCaffery1998 w/Elway:64-1053-101999 w/rookie Griese:71-1018-7Anthony Carter (Minnesota)1989 w/Wilson: 65-1066-41990 w/inexperienced Gannon: 70-1008-8James Lofton:1985 w/Dickey: 69-1153-41986 w/inexperienced Wright: 64-840-4Steve Largent1983 w/Zorn: 72-1074-111984 w/inexperienced Krieg: 74-1164-12Eric Martin (N.O.)1989 w/Hebert: 68-1090-81990 w/newly aquired Walsh: 63-912-5In the Terrell Owens category . . .Irving Fryer1995 w/Miami & Marino: 62-910-81996 w Philly & an inexperienced Ty Detmer: 88-1195-11Andre Rison1996 Jac (injured) 34-458-21997 KC w/newly acquired Grbac: 72-1092-7 (Rison's 5th team in 5 years)Henry Ellard1993 STL 61-945-21994 Wash 74-1397-6The Skins used Shuler/Friesz/Frerotte in 94 but had utilized Rypien/Gannon/Conklin in 93.)

 
More examples:

Chad Johnson's category . . .

Randy Moss

1999 w/George: 80-1433-11

2000 w/Culpepper: 77-1437-15

Cris Carter

1999 w/George: 90-1241-13

2000 w/Culpepper: 96-1274-9

Terrell Owens

1998 w/Young: 67-1097-14

1999 w/Garcia: 60-754-4

Jerry Rice:

1998 w/Young: 82-1157-9

1999 w/Garcia: 67-830-5

Mushy Muhammad

2000 w/Beurlein: 102-1183-6

2001 w/Weinke: 50-585-1 (but had naggng injury)

Ed McCaffery

1998 w/Elway:64-1053-10

1999 w/rookie Griese:71-1018-7

Anthony Carter (Minnesota)

1989 w/Wilson: 65-1066-4

1990 w/inexperienced Gannon: 70-1008-8

James Lofton:

1985 w/Dickey: 69-1153-4

1986 w/inexperienced Wright: 64-840-4

Steve Largent

1983 w/Zorn: 72-1074-11

1984 w/inexperienced Krieg: 74-1164-12

Eric Martin (N.O.)

1989 w/Hebert: 68-1090-8

1990 w/newly aquired Walsh: 63-912-5

In the Terrell Owens category . . .

Irving Fryer

1995 w/Miami & Marino: 62-910-8

1996 w Philly & an inexperienced Ty Detmer: 88-1195-11

Andre Rison

1996 Jac (injured) 34-458-2

1997 KC w/newly acquired Grbac: 72-1092-7 (Rison's 5th team in 5 years)

Henry Ellard

1993 STL 61-945-2

1994 Wash 74-1397-6

The Skins used Shuler/Friesz/Frerotte in 94 but had utilized Rypien/Gannon/Conklin in 93.)
Historically at least, things don't look as gloomy for Chad Johnson as I originally thought.Averaging the guys in CJ's catagory (and leaving out Mushin, who was hurt in year 2), we have:

YEAR ONE: 73 receptions, 1151 yds, 9.3 TDs

YEAR TWO: 71 receptions, 1026 yds, 7.6 TDs

Interestingly enough, the main culprits for the drop were Owens & Rice from the '99 49ers (Garcia's first year).

While it's an admittedly very small sample group, it would seem that changing QBs by itself doesn't lend itself to any great decrease in production for top WRs (I'm looking more at yardage production and catches than TDs and ,except mostly for those 2 slackers Owens & Rice, it's pretty close from one year to the next.).

As for the players in the TO group (guys who changed teams and teamed up with inexperienced QBs), there's only 3 - and Rison was injured in the first year - so it's hard to draw any meaningful conclusions. Except that they all had much better years.

So it would seem that the decreased production in WRs who change teams is much less attributable to having a new QB than I thought. New system & money would be my next 2 guesses.

Thanks for posting those numbers Anarchy

 
I'd say all you have to do is look at these two examples to know all you need to:

Randy Moss1999 w/George: 80-1433-112000 w/Culpepper: 77-1437-15Cris Carter1999 w/George: 90-1241-132000 w/Culpepper: 96-1274-9Terrell Owens1998 w/Young: 67-1097-141999 w/Garcia: 60-754-4Jerry Rice:1998 w/Young: 82-1157-91999 w/Garcia: 67-830-5
That's two WRs from each team experiencing the exact same effect from the same QB change and the two receivers from each of the teams (Minn from George>C-Pepp & SF from Young>Garcia) had either very similar declines (in the case of Rice/TO) or no decline (Moss/Carter).I think we can ALL acknoweldge that these four WRs are four of the best WRs of all time, and so maybe it is no surprise that the QB change for them was negligible since they should be able to function under any QB.While this may not be clear cut, IMO: if you believe that CJohn is a really good receiver, the QB change to Palmer should have little effect. If you believe he had a synergy with Kitna which artificially augmented his 2nd half 2002 and 2003 numbers, by all means downgrade CJohn.IMO, CJohn has it all - the talent and the bravado that all the best WRs have - and he backs up his words with on field action. Finally, he can be doubled all game and still get his numbers. I think CJohn will be fine under Palmer, even if the pass offense drops from Kitna's 3600 yards/26 TDs down to, say, 3000 yards/20 TDs. I think CJohn can still get 80/1300/8 as a minimum - which are solid WR1 numbers - and he has a ceiling well above that if Palmer is able to come closer to Kitna's numbers.
 
More on the CJohnson side of things . . .Mike Quick, PHI1985 w/Jaworski: 73-1247-111986 w/rookie Cunningham: 60-939-9Tony Hill, DAL1985 w/White: 74-1113-71986 w/inexperienced Pelleur: 49-770-3Cris Collinsworth, CIN1984 w/Anderson: 64-989-61985 w/inexperienced Esiaon: 66-1130-5Carlos Carson, KC1983 w/Kenney: 80-1351-71984 w/rookie Blackledge: 57-1078-4Stacey Bailey, ATL1984 w/Bartkowsi: 67-1138-61985 w/inexperienced Archer: 30-364-0Sterling Sharpe, GB1991 w/Tomczak & Majkowski: 69-961-41992 w/rookie Favre: 108-1461-13Rob Moore, ARI1997 w/Case: 97-1584-81998 w/inexperienced Plummer: 67-982-5On the Owens side . . .Jeff Graham1995 in Chicago: 82-1301-41996 in NYJ with O'Donnell/Reich (replaced Esiason): 50-788-6

 

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