Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
John Clayton weighs in (article from earlier this season):
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Who is the best QB in COLTS history? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Raider Nation
- Start date
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I am too young to have seen Unitas play (as are probably many here, which is why Peyton will likely win this in a rout), so I cannot vote.
However, both are so great, this would be like arguing who was better, Stan Musial or Joe DiMaggio; both are too great to really argue against.
However, both are so great, this would be like arguing who was better, Stan Musial or Joe DiMaggio; both are too great to really argue against.
dcgangstas
Footballguy
Being a young 51 years of age, I'm old enough to have watched Unitas in his prime, and without being too nostalgic about it, Unitas was better.
Unitas played in an era that didn't allow offenses to have the substantial advantages that today's offenses have. Cornerbacks could bump-and-run and hit WRs all the way down the field. Peyton's a terrific field general, but Unitas had an even better command of the offense and called his own plays. The only voice in the huddle was Unitas'; just ask Tom Matte.
Peyton's the face of the NFL right now, but for all time, Unitas (along with Jim Brown and Vince Lombardi) are the eternal faces of the NFL, the true Mount Rushmore of the League.
Unitas played in an era that didn't allow offenses to have the substantial advantages that today's offenses have. Cornerbacks could bump-and-run and hit WRs all the way down the field. Peyton's a terrific field general, but Unitas had an even better command of the offense and called his own plays. The only voice in the huddle was Unitas'; just ask Tom Matte.
Peyton's the face of the NFL right now, but for all time, Unitas (along with Jim Brown and Vince Lombardi) are the eternal faces of the NFL, the true Mount Rushmore of the League.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
It's always struck me as odd that Unitas gets credit for winning a Super Bowl. In Super Bowl V, he was 3/8 for 88 yards with 2 INTs and a fumble lost. He was knocked out of the game in the first half, with the Colts trailing 13-6. He was the team's QB for most of the season, but to the extent people value the actual act of winning the Super Bowl, I don't see it.
Clayton doesn't exactly do a thorough job of arguing for either side, but just notes that Unitas was revolutionary and changed the game. That doesn't speak as to whether he was a better quarterback than Manning, or any modern quarterback. Neither does the fact that Unitas was arguably the toughest QB in NFL history; it doesn't make him thebest. I also think much of the revolutionary/changing the game stuff is a romanticized version of the past.
As for the actual question, both had a bunch of elite caliber teammates. Manning had Harrison, Edge, Saturday, Glenn, Clark and Wayne. Unitas had Berry, Moore, Parker, Mackey and Orr, among others. I think Unitas was also the beneficiary of better teammates on the other side of the ball, notably on the DL (Marchetti, Donovan, Lipscomb). But I think that's a marginal issue to consider.
I'd vote for Manning because of his consistency. As great as Unitas was, he had a two year slump in the prime of his career. At ages 28 and 29, Unitas regressed significantly both in terms of his individual statistics and the Colts record. This was due in part to the aging and injuries hitting some of the Colts stars, and Unitas wouldn't tick back up to elite until John Mackey came to the Colts in '63 and Shula was named HC. That's a ***** in Unitas' armor, as he never won another championship after the age of 26 (even if you want to give him credit for SB V, that was when he was 37; still a very long stretch).
Manning's consistency has been incredible, and will probably never be matched. His only "down" season since he became a star was in '01, when Edge went down. But it still wasn't a horrible year, and it came pretty early in Manning's career. Since then, he's had 8 straight seasons of upper tier, elite play. Statistically, even after accounting for era, Manning has a sizable edge over Unitas.
As far as the playoffs go, Unitas struggled there for much of his career. Manning was labeled a choker for awhile, and some still think he's not a great post-season performer. But the difference in playoff performances between Unitas and Starr was much, much greater than the difference between Manning and Brady.
Clayton doesn't exactly do a thorough job of arguing for either side, but just notes that Unitas was revolutionary and changed the game. That doesn't speak as to whether he was a better quarterback than Manning, or any modern quarterback. Neither does the fact that Unitas was arguably the toughest QB in NFL history; it doesn't make him thebest. I also think much of the revolutionary/changing the game stuff is a romanticized version of the past.
As for the actual question, both had a bunch of elite caliber teammates. Manning had Harrison, Edge, Saturday, Glenn, Clark and Wayne. Unitas had Berry, Moore, Parker, Mackey and Orr, among others. I think Unitas was also the beneficiary of better teammates on the other side of the ball, notably on the DL (Marchetti, Donovan, Lipscomb). But I think that's a marginal issue to consider.
I'd vote for Manning because of his consistency. As great as Unitas was, he had a two year slump in the prime of his career. At ages 28 and 29, Unitas regressed significantly both in terms of his individual statistics and the Colts record. This was due in part to the aging and injuries hitting some of the Colts stars, and Unitas wouldn't tick back up to elite until John Mackey came to the Colts in '63 and Shula was named HC. That's a ***** in Unitas' armor, as he never won another championship after the age of 26 (even if you want to give him credit for SB V, that was when he was 37; still a very long stretch).
Manning's consistency has been incredible, and will probably never be matched. His only "down" season since he became a star was in '01, when Edge went down. But it still wasn't a horrible year, and it came pretty early in Manning's career. Since then, he's had 8 straight seasons of upper tier, elite play. Statistically, even after accounting for era, Manning has a sizable edge over Unitas.
As far as the playoffs go, Unitas struggled there for much of his career. Manning was labeled a choker for awhile, and some still think he's not a great post-season performer. But the difference in playoff performances between Unitas and Starr was much, much greater than the difference between Manning and Brady.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
They're the faces of the (late '50s and) '60s. Just like how Montana, Rice and Taylor were the faces of the '80s (and some of the '90s).
Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
Art Schlichter? How about listing Bert Jones. Bert did win an NFL MVP and took the Colts to the playoffs three straight years in the mid-70s.
Currently Unitas is the best because he revolutionized the game. He invented the two minute drill, the timing offense, was the first to 40,000 yards, and holds probably the best QB record of all time where he threw a TD pass in 47 straight games. Keep in mind they played 12 and 14 games seasons then. That's important because there would be one more off-season to deal with. He called his own plays (Manning is as close to that as any QB currently playing), and was a field general in the truest sense of the word. When he spoke in the huddle everyone else shut their mouth, or received the wrath of Unitas. He was the boss and everyone knew it. I would love to see some of the divas today try their crap with Unitas. He would have put them in their place in a hurry. JohnnyU was the man.
However, I do believe when it's all said and done a good argument can be made for Manning as the greatest ever QB in the history of the NFL. He will hold every meaningful QB record other than the current Unitas record mentioned earlier. One thing that's currently hurting Manning IMO is his playoff performances. He's had some good games (see Denver game specifically), but also some stinkers. I also thought Dominic Rhodes should have won the MVP in SB 41. I thought Manning managed that game and played well in horrible weather, something the haters said he could never do, but Rhodes or Addai were more deserving of the MVP. I hate to admit that being such a Manning homer that I am. Manning is as close to the perfect QB as there is. He is the most cerebral qb in the history of the game no doubt. He works harder than any QB in history.
Edited to correct spelling.
Currently Unitas is the best because he revolutionized the game. He invented the two minute drill, the timing offense, was the first to 40,000 yards, and holds probably the best QB record of all time where he threw a TD pass in 47 straight games. Keep in mind they played 12 and 14 games seasons then. That's important because there would be one more off-season to deal with. He called his own plays (Manning is as close to that as any QB currently playing), and was a field general in the truest sense of the word. When he spoke in the huddle everyone else shut their mouth, or received the wrath of Unitas. He was the boss and everyone knew it. I would love to see some of the divas today try their crap with Unitas. He would have put them in their place in a hurry. JohnnyU was the man.
However, I do believe when it's all said and done a good argument can be made for Manning as the greatest ever QB in the history of the NFL. He will hold every meaningful QB record other than the current Unitas record mentioned earlier. One thing that's currently hurting Manning IMO is his playoff performances. He's had some good games (see Denver game specifically), but also some stinkers. I also thought Dominic Rhodes should have won the MVP in SB 41. I thought Manning managed that game and played well in horrible weather, something the haters said he could never do, but Rhodes or Addai were more deserving of the MVP. I hate to admit that being such a Manning homer that I am. Manning is as close to the perfect QB as there is. He is the most cerebral qb in the history of the game no doubt. He works harder than any QB in history.
Edited to correct spelling.
Last edited by a moderator:
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Schlichter is my comedic version of a null vote.I loved Jones. He was a big part of one of my favorite games ever -- "Ghost to the Post"... he had one of the strongest arms the NFL has ever seen. BUT, he only made one Pro Bowl. He had a QB rating of 78.2 and he threw for barely over 18,000 yards in his career. In this particular poll, he is not deserving of a single vote.
Horrorshow
Footballguy
Horrorshow
Footballguy
Jones' passer rating was excellent for the era he played in. The average NFL passing rating during his playing career was 68.8.
Horrorshow
Footballguy
Horrorshow
Footballguy
Bobby Layne says hi.
pizzatyme
Footballguy
Does John Clayton not believe that Manning is in the middle of revolutionizing of the game, himself?
There isn't another QB in the league that does what he does in the offense.
While that doesn't make him the best ever, it is a part of the equation along with passing numbers, wins, and Championships.
My vote is for Peyton Manning.
There isn't another QB in the league that does what he does in the offense.
While that doesn't make him the best ever, it is a part of the equation along with passing numbers, wins, and Championships.
My vote is for Peyton Manning.
Rovers
Footballguy
Some time ago, I decided that attempting to name the Greatest player in any sport , of all time is an excersize in futility.
I can only compare players who played with an era. Too many things change over time. Even comparing Babe Ruth to any modern day baseball player is fraught with flaws to support any opinion. I use Ruth as an example because the year he hit 60, that was more HR's than any other TEAM in the major leagues. Still, forgetting the whole steroid thing, many would argue Bonds anyway.
The Colts have been lucky to have had the likes of Unitas and Manning, and yes, Bert Jones was the best QB in the NFL there for a couple of years too. Especially for players of the pre-1975 era, comparing numbers just does not work, they are misleading, especially in football. Unless you saw Unitas play (more than just one or two games) you just won't understand just how good he was.
Namath's numbers look bad, in fact very bad for a HoF QB, but if you watched him play a lot, there is no question he belongs.
Put a gun to my head, I still wouldn't vote in this poll... OK, maybe I would lie with a gun to my head. Both Manning and Unitas are all time greats. I could not pick one over the other. FWIW, I turn 55 in a few days... so yeah, I saw plenty of Unitas.
I can only compare players who played with an era. Too many things change over time. Even comparing Babe Ruth to any modern day baseball player is fraught with flaws to support any opinion. I use Ruth as an example because the year he hit 60, that was more HR's than any other TEAM in the major leagues. Still, forgetting the whole steroid thing, many would argue Bonds anyway.
The Colts have been lucky to have had the likes of Unitas and Manning, and yes, Bert Jones was the best QB in the NFL there for a couple of years too. Especially for players of the pre-1975 era, comparing numbers just does not work, they are misleading, especially in football. Unless you saw Unitas play (more than just one or two games) you just won't understand just how good he was.
Namath's numbers look bad, in fact very bad for a HoF QB, but if you watched him play a lot, there is no question he belongs.
Put a gun to my head, I still wouldn't vote in this poll... OK, maybe I would lie with a gun to my head. Both Manning and Unitas are all time greats. I could not pick one over the other. FWIW, I turn 55 in a few days... so yeah, I saw plenty of Unitas.
Horrorshow
Footballguy
How is that "revolutionary"?
Im willing to say Manning is the greatest to play the game. No QB makes dissecting NFL offenses look so easy. Defenses have become faster, bigger, stronger, more athletic, and more deceptive, but they are speed bumps for Manning, a mere soduku to be solved, which he almost always does. Manning is so good that we just expect picture perfect throws and decisions, we're not even that impressed any more when he does something like beat Miami with only 20 min of possession, its just what he does.
Horrorshow
Footballguy
...and more restricted by the National Football League rule book.
Shlon
Footballguy
Just like seeing the footage, it's just not impressive to my eyes. On the other hand, clips of Gale Sayers, Jim Brown and the like is very impressive even to this day.
Riffraff
Footballguy
John Elway was drafted by the Colts #1 over-all. Hall of Famer.
Nice Topps card
But that's like arguing that Eli Manning is the best QB in Chargers history.
Nice Topps card
But that's like arguing that Eli Manning is the best QB in Chargers history.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Building on my point from earlier, the majority of Unitas' accomplishments in a pretty short, four year window, following his rookie season. Consider what he accomplished from '57 to '60, from the start of his second to the end of the fifth season of his career:
1) Both his NFL championships
2) All four times he would led the league in TD passes; three of the four times he led the league in passing yards; two of the three times he led the league in QB Rating.
3) Two of his four MVPs
4) His signature moments -- the two-minute drill in the '58 Championship game, his consecutive games with a TD streak (ended in '60)
5) Four of his seven first-team All-Pro nods from all sources
From 1956-1960, Unitas reached a height that few, if any, QBs have ever reached. After '61 and '62, he had another great five year window from '63 to '67, but things were different by then. After 1960, I don't think Unitas was the unquestioned best QB in football. Sonny Jurgensen was the best QB in '61, and after that, Bart Starr became the best QB in football. After him it was probably Len Dawson.
Now you could make that argument against Manning, but I don't think it's as strong. The argument would go that from '99 to '01, Warner was the best QB. And then from '02 to '07, Brady was. And you could say Brees or Rivers has been better the past two years than Manning.
But I wouldn't really buy that. Manning will end up with an MVP from '03, '04, '08 and '09, and it's not like he wasn't great from '05-'07, either (won the SB, won two QB rating crowns). Manning's great run from '03 to '09 (and counting, of course) is three years longer than Unitas' streak from '57 to '60, and his peak was higher than during Unitas' longer streak from '63 to '67.
Many have reached the level of greatness Manning has hit, but very few have ever had the sort of sustained success he's had.
1) Both his NFL championships
2) All four times he would led the league in TD passes; three of the four times he led the league in passing yards; two of the three times he led the league in QB Rating.
3) Two of his four MVPs
4) His signature moments -- the two-minute drill in the '58 Championship game, his consecutive games with a TD streak (ended in '60)
5) Four of his seven first-team All-Pro nods from all sources
From 1956-1960, Unitas reached a height that few, if any, QBs have ever reached. After '61 and '62, he had another great five year window from '63 to '67, but things were different by then. After 1960, I don't think Unitas was the unquestioned best QB in football. Sonny Jurgensen was the best QB in '61, and after that, Bart Starr became the best QB in football. After him it was probably Len Dawson.
Now you could make that argument against Manning, but I don't think it's as strong. The argument would go that from '99 to '01, Warner was the best QB. And then from '02 to '07, Brady was. And you could say Brees or Rivers has been better the past two years than Manning.
But I wouldn't really buy that. Manning will end up with an MVP from '03, '04, '08 and '09, and it's not like he wasn't great from '05-'07, either (won the SB, won two QB rating crowns). Manning's great run from '03 to '09 (and counting, of course) is three years longer than Unitas' streak from '57 to '60, and his peak was higher than during Unitas' longer streak from '63 to '67.
Many have reached the level of greatness Manning has hit, but very few have ever had the sort of sustained success he's had.
Sinrman
Footballguy
Im willing to say Manning is the greatest to play the game. No QB makes dissecting NFL offenses look so easy. Defenses have become faster, bigger, stronger, more athletic, and more deceptive, but they are speed bumps for Manning, a mere soduku to be solved, which he almost always does. Manning is so good that we just expect picture perfect throws and decisions, we're not even that impressed any more when he does something like beat Miami with only 20 min of possession, its just what he does.
Fear & Loathing
Footballguy
Player are much better now in all sports, and that goes 10x for football now as opposed to Unitas' day.
Jim Bouton has a good quote in Ball Four about the Olympic records always being broken because athletes keep getting better with each generation. It's much harder to measure those records in football, baseball, and basketball, so our fallacy of the superior past rears its head in those sports.
Football coaching and strategy was nowhere near where it is now. The complexity in the game has evolved by leaps and bounds. For as much as fans like to rag on the spoiled millionaires now, the players are so much more committed year-round now than they were then. They're obviously bigger, stronger, and faster ... and not just by a little bit. Can you picture Ray Lewis smoking cigarettes during the game?
Unitas may or may not have been better relative to his peers, but the 1960s Unitas never got anywhere close to what the 2000s Peyton Manning is doing right now.
Jim Bouton has a good quote in Ball Four about the Olympic records always being broken because athletes keep getting better with each generation. It's much harder to measure those records in football, baseball, and basketball, so our fallacy of the superior past rears its head in those sports.
Football coaching and strategy was nowhere near where it is now. The complexity in the game has evolved by leaps and bounds. For as much as fans like to rag on the spoiled millionaires now, the players are so much more committed year-round now than they were then. They're obviously bigger, stronger, and faster ... and not just by a little bit. Can you picture Ray Lewis smoking cigarettes during the game?
Unitas may or may not have been better relative to his peers, but the 1960s Unitas never got anywhere close to what the 2000s Peyton Manning is doing right now.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Manning is the best QB ever.
Hoss_Cartwright
Footballguy
The equipment they wear, the fields they play on, the things they put into their bodies
wink
, the transportation they travel with, are all better today than yesteryear, and of course normal evolution comes into play. Also, players used to have to hold another job because the NFL didn't pay enough.Unitas would be a stud in any era, and anyone who knows football knows this. Same goes for Jim Brown and Gale Sayers.
Last edited by a moderator:
Horrorshow
Footballguy
So let's transplant Manning back to the fifties and sixties. Do you think he'd still be thowing for 4,000 yards every season, thirty touchdowns and 90.0+ passer ratings because he's a better athlete than the men who paved the way for him to have a league to play in?
Horrorshow
Footballguy
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
Question can be asked, but Peyton Manning shouldn't be involved in it because he's currently playing.
If Peyton Manning died tomorrow, I think Johnny Unitas would be considered the best Colts QB.
However, if Peyton Manning plays another 10 years and wins 2 more SB's, that added to what Manning has already done I think it would be EASY to say Manning even as great as Unitas was. That is why there are too many "if's" for a question like this.
If Peyton Manning died tomorrow, I think Johnny Unitas would be considered the best Colts QB.
However, if Peyton Manning plays another 10 years and wins 2 more SB's, that added to what Manning has already done I think it would be EASY to say Manning even as great as Unitas was. That is why there are too many "if's" for a question like this.
Tau837
Footballguy
I voted Unitas, but I think Montana, Unitas, and Peyton are the top 3 ever, in that order, and it's very close.
I agree with the notion that Unitas, given the benefits accorded to today's athletes (e.g., equipment, medicine, nutrition, year round training, better coaching, better (ETA: more physically talented) teammates, rules that favor QBs and offenses, etc.), would still be an all time great playing today. Also note that Unitas would have played a lot more games in his prime if he played now instead of the 50s and 60s.
I agree with the notion that Unitas, given the benefits accorded to today's athletes (e.g., equipment, medicine, nutrition, year round training, better coaching, better (ETA: more physically talented) teammates, rules that favor QBs and offenses, etc.), would still be an all time great playing today. Also note that Unitas would have played a lot more games in his prime if he played now instead of the 50s and 60s.
Last edited by a moderator:
encaitar
Footballguy
No, if you put today's Manning in the 50s and 60s he'd become Ruthian with his statistics. He'd throw for 6,000 yards and 40 TDs a season back then. Defenses today get game film immediately and are able to dissect it completely with specialized computer programs that break it up into sections for each formation. Defenses in the 60s would get film from a few weeks ago and it would have the one standard camera atop the pressbox. Defensive ends today are faster than RBs were in the 60s. Manning would be larger than most of the linebackers of that era. Manning would tear them up. He really is the GOAT. Unitas was great, but Manning is better.Horrorshow said:
Horrorshow
Footballguy
I don’t buy what you’re selling in the least.In a few decades time there will be a guy like you telling a guy like me that after reeling off his tenth 6,000 passing yards campaign, Drew Brees’ grandson has been the GOAT for the NFL London franchise because the athlete’s in 2050 are so much better than the one’s from the turn of the century.Did I say anything about Manning being able to take back with him all the modern conveniences you refer to? Nope. If Manning would have been born in the thirties or forties and played in the fifties and sixties he’d still have been a great quarterback as he is today - but saying that he’d throw for 6,000 yards and 40 touchdowns each season during that era is ridiculous.Which contemporary defensive ends are faster than the likes of Jim Brown, Leroy Kelly, Lenny Moore and Gale Sayers in their prime by the way?You’re saying that the likes of Butkus, Schmidt, Nitschke, Bell, Lanier, Wilcox, Buoniconti, George or Huff - all linebackers who played in the sixties - would have a problem matching up with Manning in a purely physical sense? Do you honestly think that Manning would have been able to put together a consecutive start streak of 192 games if he’d have played during the same era that Unitas did, without the protection that the rules provide Manning with today?During the late seventies the NFL became a much safer and passer friendly place for a quarterback to make a living. Any passer who has played in the NFL since the mid nineties has been part of a quarterback paradise where the rules relating to the passing game assist offensive production more than any other time in the history of professional football.Manning is fortunate to have landed in the perfect time to play quarterback in the NFL. He’s taken full advantage. He’s as good as has ever played the position - but don’t be foolish enough to think that he’d put up the same numbers that he does today in previous eras that didn’t pamper passers to the degree that they have over the last fifteen years or so.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Manning will own all the records but the NFL is a completely different game now. I am not saying which is better but take Manning and place him in the 50's and 60's and his numbers would pale in comparison to the modern day Manning. Using statistics to compare Unitas & Manning isn't very meaningful.Fear & Loathing said:
Tau837
Footballguy
pizzatyme
Footballguy
FAIL
Bill Haverchuck
Footballguy
what about Bert Jones???
trader jake
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne said:
