Peter King made me think of this today.
For the Steelers, who do you think is more valuable?
J
For the Steelers, who do you think is more valuable?
J
Last edited by a moderator:
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Who's more valuable to Pittsburgh? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Tough call here. Offense without Roethlisberger is abyssmal. Defense without Polamalu is still top-5 in the league. That said, I think Troy is the better player. I think when all is said and done, he's going to be seen (barring further injuries) as the most impactful S the game has ever seen.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
It's close. They had ~125 yards of offense yesterday. Without Ben, their offense is bottom 5-10 in the NFL. You can't say the same about Troy and the defense, there are a lot of other playmakers on that defense. I think Troy is the better player, but as to who's more valuable? That's tough. Ben plays THE premium position.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Like right after SB 43.
said Big Ben by a little bit. you can't keep winning games with no passing attack. and the defense is expending a lot of energy in these games to eke out wins. you need someone who can actually produce behind that pedestrian OLine and Ben is the perfect guy to do it.
i'll call it 11-5 or 10-6 with Ben but without Troy. but with Troy and no Ben, they'd be more like 9-7 or 8-8. that's the difference between a playoff team and one that stays home.
i'll call it 11-5 or 10-6 with Ben but without Troy. but with Troy and no Ben, they'd be more like 9-7 or 8-8. that's the difference between a playoff team and one that stays home.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Very true, but they just beat Atlanta, who is good, at home and Tennessee, who is also good, on the road without Roethlisberger, so even though the offense is mediocre without him, they can win without him. Look at what happened to the team last year when Polamalu was hurt.
Last edited by a moderator:
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
May be coincidental. They've played good defense without Troy before. They NEVER play good defense without Aaron Smith, who was also out for most of last year.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
They were also without Aaron Smith, so you can't really look at that in a vacuum, but your point is well-taken. I think Polamalu is the best overall football player in the league right now, there's really no one else at his position that compares. But a top-5 QB is also extremely valuable. The offense looks atrocious right now and I don't know that I want to rely on the special teams and defense to win every game. They have one offensive TD through 2 weeks, which is gruesome.Very true, but they just beat Atlanta, who is good, at home and Tennessee, who is also good, on the road without Roethlisberger, so even though the offense is mediocre without him, they can win without him. Look at what happened to the team last year when Polamalu was hurt.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I think you could probably count on one hand the # of people outside of Steeler fans who really know just how good Aaron Smith is, since the stats don't flesh it out. You really need to watch every single game for years to gain a true appreciation for him, so I don't blame a knowledgeable poster like Ghost Rider for overlooking that.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Oh, I know how good Aaron Smith is. I was just saying... 
I would say Roethlisberger is more of a top 10 QB than top 5 , but he is certainly valuable to that offense. Once he comes back, I expect Mike Wallace to become a huge part of the offense.
I would say Roethlisberger is more of a top 10 QB than top 5
, but he is certainly valuable to that offense. Once he comes back, I expect Mike Wallace to become a huge part of the offense.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
We can agree to disagree on top 5/top 10, but I can't really see a case for anyone other than Peyton, Brady, and Brees. I know the stat-heads will point to Rodgers, Schaub, Romo or Rivers, but none of those 4 guys has won anything or been much more than stat guys. Roethlisberger doesn't often overwhelm you with #s, but in stats that aren't heavily predicated on # of attempts, he fares quite well. Most probably don't know that Ben is in the top 10 ALL TIME in winning %, completion %, yards per attempt, and QB rating (although I know many hate that stat, it doesn't require 30 attempts per game to put up gaudy #s like yards or TDs do.)Oh, I know how good Aaron Smith is. I was just saying...I would say Roethlisberger is more of a top 10 QB than top 5
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Oh, and I also think you're dead on about Wallace. If you're in a guppy league, I'd be looking to trade for him now if his owner is pissed at his performance and doesn't realize how much things are going to change after 2 more games.Oh, I know how good Aaron Smith is. I was just saying...
Copeman
Footballguy
I'm not basing this question on who is the better athlete, or who is the best at his respective position. I am basing this on what was asked. Who is more valuable to the Steelers. While Troy is in a league by himself as far as his athleticism and the position he plays, that Steeler defense would still be good without him. In regards to Ben, we have all seen how abyssmal the offense is without him. I vote Ben by a little, and in all actuality, it is probably Ben by alot. And it kinda pains me to say that.
lynx4ben
Footballguy
Agreed, but I think the difference between having a very good QB and nothing translates into many more wins than having an elite safety on your roster.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Aaron Smith is almost as important as Troy.This question is a lot like asking which of your kids you love more -- there is no correct answer. Both Polamalu and Roethlisberger are critical to the Steelers. The Steelers are winning right now due to their defense but eventually they're going to need some offense. Dixon, Leftwich and Batch are not going to cut it.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I don't want to get into a big debate over this, and I have always been good about giving Roethlisberger a lot more credit than a lot of non-Steelers fans, but I do think that winning percentage tends to get overrated way too much. You could name a bunch of other QBs over the years who would have a similar percentage if they consistently had a top 5 defense helping them out. When it comes to clutch play, Roethlisberger is up there, but overall, I would probably place him at around 7th in the NFL. But that's me.
Yep. In an 8-team league where we start 2 QBs, I have have both Roethlisberger (whom I will start along with Rivers) and Wallace, and I just want to hang in there until both come back and can be in my starting lineup every week. My lineup will be deadly once those two are in it.Oh, and I also think you're dead on about Wallace. If you're in a guppy league, I'd be looking to trade for him now if his owner is pissed at his performance and doesn't realize how much things are going to change after 2 more games.Oh, I know how good Aaron Smith is. I was just saying...I would say Roethlisberger is more of a top 10 QB than top 5
, but he is certainly valuable to that offense. Once he comes back, I expect Mike Wallace to become a huge part of the offense.
Last edited by a moderator:
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
Ben is the answer but both change the game. The Steelers desperately need Polamalu's playmaking in the secondary. Their CBs didn't intercept a pass until the 16th game last year. But with the Steelers OL very few QBs can produce at the level Roethlisberger does with his ability to make something out of nothing especially in the clutch. For 3-4 games during the regular season I might take Polamalu over Ben, but if the Steelers could only play one in a Super Bowl I'd take Roethlisberger.
Last edited by a moderator:
Stillers Jr.
Footballguy
I am with this guy.I love troy, he's a freak and one of the best. But Offensively, without Ben, the Steelers are inept. QB trumps S
Frot
Footballguy
usually yes, but Troy changes that defense
Frot
Footballguy
since 2004 off ranks (pts/yrds) def ranks (pts/yrds)
2004 11/16 1/1
2005 9/15 3/4
2006 12/7 11/9
2007 9/17 2/1
2008 20/22 1/1
2009 12/7 12/5
blue = super bowl win
This team is a defensive team, they win based on that. Troy is the key to their defense. Ben is a pretty good QB (not top5). He and the entire offense is helped a lot by a consistently impressive defense. Their 2 superbowl wins
By the way in 2009 and 2006, when their Defense had down years, they missed the playoffs.
2004 11/16 1/1
2005 9/15 3/4
2006 12/7 11/9
2007 9/17 2/1
2008 20/22 1/1
2009 12/7 12/5
blue = super bowl win
This team is a defensive team, they win based on that. Troy is the key to their defense. Ben is a pretty good QB (not top5). He and the entire offense is helped a lot by a consistently impressive defense. Their 2 superbowl wins
By the way in 2009 and 2006, when their Defense had down years, they missed the playoffs.
cheese
Footballguy
I don't know how you can say that after last year. Sure, there were other factors, but that defense was awful for a good chunk of the year without Troy.
This was my thought process as well. The second Super Bowl win was absolutely carried on the back of Big Ben.
Frot
Footballguy
they won it with the 20th ranked offense in the leaguei am pretty sure you could sign a QB to hit that level
Frot
Footballguy
you mean the year that he threw a whole 17 TDs and 15 ints and they had the #1 defense in points and yards?maybe he played well that game, but they made it to the superbowl on defense. They made it their in spite of Ben.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
They tried it with O'Donnell and Kordell.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I've gotta say that Troy's a bit more valuable, but only because it'd be a lot harder - impossible, actually - for the Steelers to go out and find a replacement safety who can do what he does than a quarterback who can come in and lead the team. No safety in the league right now does what he does or changes the game like he does.
That said, there are only three quarterbacks in the league who I'd rather have leading my team than Roethlisberger, especially if it's one with an offensive line as poor at pass protection as the Steelers' line is. Could other quarterbacks win on a team that has a dominant defense? Sure, but that doesn't diminish how good of a quarterback Ben has become, and his best years should be ahead of him.
I like having both of them.
That said, there are only three quarterbacks in the league who I'd rather have leading my team than Roethlisberger, especially if it's one with an offensive line as poor at pass protection as the Steelers' line is. Could other quarterbacks win on a team that has a dominant defense? Sure, but that doesn't diminish how good of a quarterback Ben has become, and his best years should be ahead of him.
I like having both of them.
FavreCo
Footballguy
Roethlisberger led 20th ranked. Take him out and insert joe blow. (Dixon) Dixon puts them to 28-32. That's a loss.They won it with a ridiculously perfect pass at the end of the game. A pass Dixon could do maybe 1 in a billion.
Frot
Footballguy
the year they made that superbowl they ranked 5/6 in offense that offense was miles better than this one, but it is not real relevant because the personel were vastly different then.
Frot
Footballguy
and if their defense doesn't rank 1/1 they don;t even make the playoffsand without troy, they don't rank 1/1look at the numbers, since Ben got there when the defense dominates they win, when it struggles they losegiven that, I'd rather have Troy and a dominate defense.
Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
Come on man. In the Steelers two Super Bowl runs (7-0) Ben's QB rating has been over 90 in five of the seven games. For comparison's sake in Peyton Manning's two Super Bowl runs (6-1) his QB rating was over 90 in one of seven games.
Last edited by a moderator:
Jagov
Footballguy
+ a whole bunch! This is spot on and something 99% of NFL followers don't comprehend. Great point.I picked Ben although it is painfully close and I would hate to have to choose.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Defense was ranked #5 in the league (based on ypg, the way the NFL ranks defenses) without Troy or Aaron Smith.Offense this year w/o Ben has scored 1 offensive TD in 2 games.
CrossEyed
Footballguy
Stats sometimes lie. The Steelers were not a top 5 defense last year.
Frot
Footballguy
and they have allowed 1 TD in 2 games, and are 2-0
kinda proves my point. They are winning with a lousy offense.
they can win with an average offense, even below average
i have never seen them win without an elite defense
my eyes tell me Troy is an elite player that makes them the baddest defense in the league, without him they are not nearly as good.
with ben they are an average offense, without him they are a bad offense. I think that if there are longer term answers that would make them an average offense without ben, they have not needed to pursue them. I don;t think they are the baddest defense around no matter who they get to replasce Troy.
Steeelers = Defense
always have
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Be that as it may, it was clearly a lot better than the offense has been so far this year, and that was without Troy OR Aaron Smith.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I agree with what you're saying, but the argument isn't really "what's more important to the Steelers success/identity, offense or defense?", it's "who is more valuable to the team?" I think a case can be made that Roethlisberger's absence affects his phase of the game substantially more than Troy's absence affects his.In any event, I'm not really arguing for Ben here (I actually voted 'Troy by a little'), just saying it's a lot closer than some may think.and they have allowed 1 TD in 2 games, and are 2-0
kinda proves my point. They are winning with a lousy offense.
they can win with an average offense, even below average
i have never seen them win without an elite defense
my eyes tell me Troy is an elite player that makes them the baddest defense in the league, without him they are not nearly as good.
with ben they are an average offense, without him they are a bad offense. I think that if there are longer term answers that would make them an average offense without ben, they have not needed to pursue them. I don;t think they are the baddest defense around no matter who they get to replasce Troy.
Steeelers = Defense
always have
Copeman
Footballguy
In regards to THIS year and I know it is a crappy sample size with all of 2 games, but the defense as a whole has been playing lights out. Everyone on the defense are playing like pro-bowlers, it's unreal and amazingly fun to watch. Along with Troy, you can also make cases for Timmons, Harrison, and Smith, along with maybe even a couple others. The offense is putrid, but the running game isn't horrible and will improve, and we all know that passing attack can't get much worse than yesterday. If Ben played yesterday, that score would have been very lopsided, probably something like 41-10. People talk about the defense playing and run around Troy's abilities. Well, the same can be said for Ben and the offense.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
You can't say that. If he was playing, they would have been more aggressive on offense, and BR does have the tendency to turn the ball over, so who knows what happens? It looks like they never let their QBs yesterday even try to lose the game for them once the special teams and defense got them the lead.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
True. Harrison and Timmons were as beastly as Troy yesterday. And Smith is always excellent.
As great as the defense is playing the offense is going to have to pick it up eventually. Right now it is abysmal.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
