Why can't the league solve Brady's short passing game? (1 Viewer)

[JohnnyU]

I find it hard to believe that Julian Edelman can continue to dominate defenders the way he does with the the short passing game. I understand the difficulty covering Gronk, but Edelman? He's another Welker from days gone by and no one could cover him either in his prime. Eventually all schemes are figured out in the NFL but for some reason the 5 yard pass from Brady to Edelman hasn't (2 years running now?).

Obviously it's impossible to rush Brady effectively for an entire game because of NE's short passing game, so why hasn't a different tactic been used? What would that be? Perhaps busting Edelman's chops at the line of scrimmage is a start and then deliver violent hits to him (not try to injure, but real football hits) after he catches those short passes over the middle. Make him think twice about catching those short passes over the middle. Most will say he's too quick off the line of scrimmage and that may be true, but they need to deliver the hard hits wherever possible on Edelman.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Tackle Edelman's knees?

 

[Old Smiley]

It's the multiplicity too. You put a guy on him and he's got to chase around and find where he's lined up and meanwhile they've snuck Gronk somewhere as well, and they're doing something strange with the declared eligibles...

 

[Vector]

Patriots are on the verge of offensive pass interference almost every play. They pick more than any other team and that is why their receivers are open all the time.

 

[jonessed]

There are a few teams that have gotten good at timing picks in their short passing game. New England does it the best though. It's impossible to stop if done right.

 

[Stealthycat]

because when you plan for it, Brady goes deep, or they run the ball hard, or play 2 TE's .....

Patriots are simply masters at adapting to defensive game plans

 

[Raiderfan32904]

They stack and shed using the off man as a screen out, and it gets momentary separation for throws that are already on their way 3 seconds after the snap. The reality is not every QB can make those kind of throws without getting picked. Similar to Russell Wilson in the SB last year. Even Brady was lucky he didn't get picked on a short timing throw to the flat yesterday. Defense can figure it out, they just need to take more chances.

 

[iamkoza]

My arm chair DC guess would be to force Brady to complete passes that travel 15 yards+ in the air. Cram the box full of defenders and force him to be accurate down field... Much easier said than done. Would require constant pressure being generated from a four man rush too

 

[JohnnyU]

because when you plan for it, Brady goes deep, or they run the ball hard, or play 2 TE's .....

Patriots are simply masters at adapting to defensive game plans

I would take my chances with Brady going deep in a heartbeat. For sure you can't beat them if you let Brady eat you up on the 5 yard pass. I know that Brady isn't as effective with the deep ball at this point in his career. I'm not saying he sucks at it, but if I had to choose between what I defend I'll try to take Edelman out of the game.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

looks even more deadly with Dion Lewis in there.

 

[eoMMan]

The balls are too under inflated for other teams to do anything.

 

[CalBear]

In basketball, playing man-to-man against a pick sometimes you'll switch coverage. I don't remember seeing that in football; maybe the game's just too fast to make it work.

 

[Bojang0301]

The league isn't calling penalties on the pick play. That, and you can't cover Gronk without dedicating a lot of your defense to it.

 

[Da Guru]

The Pats are the NFLs best coached team by a wide margin. They simply adjust and adjust and adjust and keep rolling along.

 

[pecorino]

Pick plays. Did anyone mention that yet? One other thing, in the good old days the safeties or LBs could blow up receivers catching the short, quick passes across the middle. Edelman and Welker types would be lit up if the defenders could legally concuss them. Boy do I miss that. No sarcasm.

 

[JohnnyU]

Pick plays. Did anyone mention that yet? One other thing, in the good old days the safeties or LBs could blow up receivers catching the short, quick passes across the middle. Edelman and Welker types would be lit up if the defenders could legally concuss them. Boy do I miss that. No sarcasm.

Perhaps teams should deliver those blows anyway and take a few penalties. Make Edelman think twice about going over the middle or any short pass for that matter.

Edited to add - Legal violent hits draw penalties but that doesn't make them any less legal. Think about that for a minute.

 

[pecorino]

Pick plays. Did anyone mention that yet? One other thing, in the good old days the safeties or LBs could blow up receivers catching the short, quick passes across the middle. Edelman and Welker types would be lit up if the defenders could legally concuss them. Boy do I miss that. No sarcasm.

Perhaps teams should deliver those blows and take a few penalties for the team?

I wish. The fines keep the vicious hits in check unfortunately, too.

 

[JohnnyU]

Pick plays. Did anyone mention that yet? One other thing, in the good old days the safeties or LBs could blow up receivers catching the short, quick passes across the middle. Edelman and Welker types would be lit up if the defenders could legally concuss them. Boy do I miss that. No sarcasm.

Perhaps teams should deliver those blows and take a few penalties for the team?

I wish. The fines keep the vicious hits in check unfortunately, too.

Do like NE does and have the owner supplement those who are fined (See Belichick after Spygate).

 

[Shutout]

Why can't teams ever seem to stop the teams that have one legit option like Steve Smith? Why can't teams stop the teams they KNOW only has one freaking guy that will really hurt them on every play (Antonio Brown/Odell/Emmanuel Sanders)?

Now, whatever answer you arrive at as you're sitting there thinking "Yeah, how DOES a guy like Greg Olsen or Steve Smith have any success when every team in the league knows they are options 1,2, and 3" and then parlay that question to ask, "ok, if they can't stop those guys because of their scheme and talent, how do you stop Gronk + Edellman + Lewis + Blount + [insert guy here]?"

Just too many weapons in the hands of a really smart coach.

And it doesn't matter what you want to do, when you have that many options, it becomes like the way they used to describe the Cowboys triplets or the greatest show on turf: you are picking your poison on how you want to die ... slow or fast. You do all those things to take Edellman away and you'll get bludgeoned and embarrassed. You take away the short space and Gronk will destroy you down the middle. On and on and on.

It's kind of a funny observation and may be nothing farther from the truth but I think teams HAVE to get chewed up by the Patriots like they do because of 1)pride and 2)conditioning. You ever notice how often you watch a Patriots game and it seems like those first 2-3 series by the Pats are downright pedestrian and Brady almost looks like "man, nothing is working", etc? And then the flood gates open? It's because they know that teams are going to try to "disrupt" Brady ... and they know that requires massive energy. So they rope-a-dope them. They let teams unleash their hellfire and brimstone and they take the shot and then as soon as teams pass rush slows a step, they start running that quick slant and open flat stuff all over the place and the teams are gassed. They can't do it..

And then, once they have them, it all falls into place. A behind team has to throw more. THe Pats know it and are ready. THe run game becomes a friend of the Pats if they want it. They take it if teams will waive the white flag and concede but when teams won't swallow their pride and they try to force the issue, the Pats step on their throats.

Some teams seem more willing (whether its pride or lack or patience) to allow the big plays instead of leaning on the Pats and grinding them down. It's almost like they can live with "Gronk beng Gronk" and "what are you going to do, but you see few teams just hang in there and force them to play that small ball game.

 

[Short Corner]

Pick plays. Did anyone mention that yet? One other thing, in the good old days the safeties or LBs could blow up receivers catching the short, quick passes across the middle. Edelman and Welker types would be lit up if the defenders could legally concuss them. Boy do I miss that. No sarcasm.

Perhaps teams should deliver those blows and take a few penalties for the team?

I wish. The fines keep the vicious hits in check unfortunately, too.

Do like NE does and have the owner supplement those who are fined (See Belichick after Spygate).

BB's salary isn't subject to salary cap restrictions.

 

[JohnnyU]

Why can't teams ever seem to stop the teams that have one legit option like Steve Smith? Why can't teams stop the teams they KNOW only has one freaking guy that will really hurt them on every play (Antonio Brown/Odell/Emmanuel Sanders)?

Now, whatever answer you arrive at as you're sitting there thinking "Yeah, how DOES a guy like Greg Olsen or Steve Smith have any success when every team in the league knows they are options 1,2, and 3" and then parlay that question to ask, "ok, if they can't stop those guys because of their scheme and talent, how do you stop Gronk + Edellman + Lewis + Blount + [insert guy here]?"

Just too many weapons in the hands of a really smart coach.

And it doesn't matter what you want to do, when you have that many options, it becomes like the way they used to describe the Cowboys triplets or the greatest show on turf: you are picking your poison on how you want to die ... slow or fast. You do all those things to take Edellman away and you'll get bludgeoned and embarrassed. You take away the short space and Gronk will destroy you down the middle. On and on and on.

It's kind of a funny observation and may be nothing farther from the truth but I think teams HAVE to get chewed up by the Patriots like they do because of 1)pride and 2)conditioning. You ever notice how often you watch a Patriots game and it seems like those first 2-3 series by the Pats are downright pedestrian and Brady almost looks like "man, nothing is working", etc? And then the flood gates open? It's because they know that teams are going to try to "disrupt" Brady ... and they know that requires massive energy. So they rope-a-dope them. They let teams unleash their hellfire and brimstone and they take the shot and then as soon as teams pass rush slows a step, they start running that quick slant and open flat stuff all over the place and the teams are gassed. They can't do it..

And then, once they have them, it all falls into place. A behind team has to throw more. THe Pats know it and are ready. THe run game becomes a friend of the Pats if they want it. They take it if teams will waive the white flag and concede but when teams won't swallow their pride and they try to force the issue, the Pats step on their throats.

Some teams seem more willing (whether its pride or lack or patience) to allow the big plays instead of leaning on the Pats and grinding them down. It's almost like they can live with "Gronk beng Gronk" and "what are you going to do, but you see few teams just hang in there and force them to play that small ball game.

Perhaps rushing Brady and getting "gassed as you say" is the wrong strategy. Shouldn't teams try and play the short passes better than what they do and deliver violent blows to their receivers so they pay the price for the short passes? I would rather take my chances at Tom Brady beating me deep than let him dink and dunk all day long and control 3/4 of the clock.

 

[Short Corner]

Aren't picks legal now within 1 yard of the LOS?

Anyway, OCs are getting good at making the defense show it's hand with formations. A lot of trips one side with a single RB or TE opposite and they don't even need a shift more often than not. You can't press everyone in trips or a bunch yielding quick crosses and hitches. GB does it a lot as well.

 

[bostonfred]

Safety Mike Mitchell says that Gronkowski is successful when people dont put their hands on him and linebacker Ryan Shazier said that the Steelers dont plan on giving him that kind of welcome to the 2015 season.

You just have to jam him up a little bit, mess with his timing, Shazier said, via ESPN.com. If you mess up their timing, they are really time-oriented. You have to mess up their timing and get in his face with pressure, then I feel we can slow him down a little bit.

Gronk had 5 catches, 94 yards, 3 touchdowns against this game plan.

 

[JIslander]

If only teams could roster similarly athletic, vertically challenged defenders to pester them all over the field.

 

[Run It Up]

A lot of talk in this thread. The reality is Edelman isn't Welker, he's a more complete WR and has better release and moves than Welker ever had.

Pats scheme very well also, people in here talking about pick plays. The Pats try to disrupt the defense every play on top of creating multiple mismatches and getting rid of the ball quickly. It's been said in here and plenty of other places, the defense can't do a whole lot against this without taking serious risks and jumping routes and at the point they have to get lucky, if they miss it will likely cost them a lot.

 

[Rick James]

Edelman is closer to Antonio Brown than Welker, imo.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Why can't the league "solve" Brady's short passing game? Why couldn't they stop Montana's?

Take away the short they go long, take away the long they go short or intermediate; pick your poison.

Brady is clearly one of the smartest, most driven, most accurate and best qbs that ever lived playing for one of the greatest coaches of all time; that and one of the greatest TEs of all time (likely) is not an easy combo to stop.

 

[JohnnyU]

Edelman is closer to Antonio Brown than Welker, imo.

I think you'[re giving him too much credit. Edelman isn't nowhere near as fast as Brown. I will concede that Edelman's short area quickness is one of the best, if not the best, in the league. I do believe DBs need to lay the lumber on him after he catches those short passes however. Teams need to make him understand there is a price to be paid for doing that and teams don't do that nearly enough, if at all.

 

[JohnnyU]

Why can't the league "solve" Brady's short passing game? Why couldn't they stop Montana's?

Take away the short they go long, take away the long they go short or intermediate; pick your poison.

Brady is clearly one of the smartest, most driven, most accurate and best qbs that ever lived playing for one of the greatest coaches of all time; that and one of the greatest TEs of all time (likely) is not an easy combo to stop.

I believe you over value their ability to go deep on a consistent bases. Pick your poison? I'd much rather pick that poison than let Brady control almost all the clock with the dink and dunk all day long.

 

[[icon]]

System + Talent

They are among the best in the NFL at scheming, and they have the appropriate talent to execute that scheme. Having talent like Brady and Gronk make the rest of the offense somewhat Plug & Play within their system. Remove either of those two, and things get a lot harder for New England.

Keep in mind that they will have another solid weapon in LaFell joining the rotation here soon enough, as well.

 

[[icon]]

Edelman is closer to Antonio Brown than Welker, imo.

I think you'[re giving him too much credit. Edelman isn't nowhere near as fast as Brown. I will concede that Edelman's short area quickness is one of the best, if not the best, in the league.

20yd Shuttle Times

Brown (5'10" 186lbs): 4.18 sec

Edelman (5'10" 195lbs): 3.92 sec

40yd Dash:

Brown: 4.47

Edelman: 4.52 (has a low of 4.42, though)

It's a lot closer than you realize... I'll venture to say Edelman has better shakes than Brown as well.

 

[JIslander]

I'd like to see a stat on how many balls over 20 yds Edelman has caught (in the air, not +YAC) vs Brown. NE has created "scatback" like receivers vs. the classic like Brown IMO.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Saying it's just Gronk or it's just pick plays is missing the entire picture. The Patriots are fantastic at creating mismatches and utilizing the talents of the guys they have in conjunction with exploiting every rule they can.

If you want to run press coverage and bump Edelman and Amendola at the line, the Pats will either throw deep or run the ball down your throat. And if your CBs press up, that's 2 or 3 less guys to gang tackle Gronk if he gets the ball over the middle of the field.

So your DBs are forced to back off and Brady throws those quick 5 yard strikes over and over again. So why don't other teams just do the same thing? Easy right? Sure, all it takes is a QB with the ability to read a defense and know EXACTLY what the coverage is and where each guy is going to go if/when they are picked. Then you need WRs who can read the defense the exact same way and know EXACTLY who is going to be running the pick and who is going to be the #1 read. Then the WRs have to pick the defender on the correct side of the defender's body and the WR has to run the route EXACTLY where the QB expects him to be. Then the QB has to have the ball out of his hand in less than 2 seconds and be incredibly accurate with his throws. Do you have any idea how hard it is to receive a snap, drop, and throw a pass accurately that quickly? It's insane.

Honestly, I think the best defense against it is a combo of bump and run coverage some plays with Big blitzes on, off coverage with the D-Line not putting a real rush on and getting their hands up immediately in Brady's passing lanes, and some off coverage with Big blitzes and CBs crashing hard in front of the WRs to sell out for INTs.

 

[Franknbeans]

because they cheat

 

[[icon]]

I'd like to see a stat on how many balls over 20 yds Edelman has caught (in the air, not +YAC) vs Brown. NE has created "scatback" like receivers vs. the classic like Brown IMO.

Edelman's routes don't call for deep balls... not sure why you'd want to make that comparison.

 

[[icon]]

because they're awesome

 

[JIslander]

I'd like to see a stat on how many balls over 20 yds Edelman has caught (in the air, not +YAC) vs Brown. NE has created "scatback" like receivers vs. the classic like Brown IMO.

Edelman's routes don't call for deep balls... not sure why you'd want to make that comparison.

I didnt make the comparison.

 

[[icon]]

I'd like to see a stat on how many balls over 20 yds Edelman has caught vs Brown.

Edelman's routes don't call for deep balls... not sure why you'd want to make that comparison.

I didnt make the comparison.

 

[Thunderlips]

It all starts with punching Brady in the mouth and generating pressure while rushing 4.

Then, force him to go deep.

 

[Thunderlips]

And you can't get behind too far. You have to control the clock.

 

[shader]

LOLat pick plays and the league being listed.

How about the real reason, Tom Brady?

 

[Thunderlips]

And you have to allow for the idea that someone's going to get theirs on the NE O. To me, there's less shame in making Brady make moderate to deep throws to Gronk and other WR's than getting "death by a thousand cuts" from Edeleman/Welker/Lewis/Vereen/Faulk etc. etc.

 

[[icon]]

It all starts with punching Brady in the mouth and generating pressure while rushing 4.

With an average release time of 2.09 seconds, I'm not sure there is a team in the NFL with the defensive front 4 capable of accomplishing the bolded.

 

[Mr. Soup Nazi]

I think you have to gamble and hit on a couple of INTs and then have the offense to outscore them.

Front four have to play great as well. Getting quick pressure without having to send extra guys is the best way to jack it all up.

 

[Thunderlips]

It all starts with punching Brady in the mouth and generating pressure while rushing 4.

With an average release time of 2.09 seconds, I'm not sure there is a team in the NFL with the defensive front 4 capable of accomplishing the bolded.

Not impossible, but very difficult. IIRC, that was a key to the Giants winning the two Super Bowls.

I only caught some of that game yesterday, but I also thought DAL was getting pressure rushing 4.

 

[Thunderlips]

It all starts with punching Brady in the mouth and generating pressure while rushing 4.

With an average release time of 2.09 seconds, I'm not sure there is a team in the NFL with the defensive front 4 capable of accomplishing the bolded.

That could also be put to the test by jamming Edelman at the line (also much easier said than done).

 

[SoBeDad]

It all starts with punching Brady in the mouth and generating pressure while rushing 4.

With an average release time of 2.09 seconds, I'm not sure there is a team in the NFL with the defensive front 4 capable of accomplishing the bolded.

The Dolphins have been successful in containing Brady about once a year for the past several years. It was because of pressure, usually quick pressure, from Wake, Vernon and others. But I'm expecting the Patriots to destroy Miami this year, unless Wake and Vernon get completely healthy.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Indy will solve it next weekend, of course that just means the Pats will run all over them for the umpteenth straight time and not have a need for the short passing game.

 

[NightStalkers]

It is all of it. Brady has worked the NE system to perfection. The league has made rules that enhance the passing game. Pick plays are hard to referee. Gronk is physically impossible to stop. Edeleman has lethal short area quickness and is deceptively strong for his size. They adjust as good as any team ever. (Joe Gibbs first era teams are the only ones close)

It will get worse if they ever decide to pay for or draft a legitimate deep threat with size. By the way I am no NE fan I am a redskins fan. NE reminds me of what the Gibbs teams might have been with a Top 5 qb...

 

[Quasimoto]

A perfectly executed variant of the West Coast offense has always been nearly impossible to solve.