a_rackowski
Footballguy
Just curious because I am not too familiar with the reasoning. As far as I knew he was an undersized DE buried on the depth chart.
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Why do so many here think Kiwanuka is special. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter a_rackowski
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brakeyawself
Footballguy
Umm he's 6'5, 265 pounds. Ten pounds heavier than Strahan, 2 inches and 3 pounds heavier than Umenyiora. He has the power to play DE and the quickness to play like a LB and drop back in medium coverage. Undersized? Not at all.He will replace Strahan either once he retires, of possibly after this season even if he doesnt retire. I think its pretty self explanatory. Not to mention he has dominated this preseason.
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a_rackowski
Footballguy
Really - I am not being a smart a(*. I dont know much about the guy. I thought Justin Tuck was behind Strahan and was an excellent prospect himself?
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I don't think that many here think he is special.
I'd be just as happy to own Tuck. I like the potential about the same.
I'd be just as happy to own Tuck. I like the potential about the same.
brakeyawself
Footballguy
Ahh Tuck is also. The giants have 4 very good DE's basically. Kiwa is better than Tuck IMO but not by a whole lot. He's an excellent prospect. I thought at a point they were going to play him some at DT. Tuck is 6'5 ,274, so bigger than all the other 3. So Im not really sure where he stands. But I dont think there is any doubt that Kiwa moves in for Strahan. Im sure they will figure out somthing for Tuck whether it be trading him or moving to DT or somthing of that nature.Not to mention, I dont think the Giants would have drafted Kiwa in the first round had they not thought he was better than Tuck, seeing as how Tuck was allready on the roster.
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The Gator
Footballguy
I feel Kiwi has already shown more. i know it's preseason but but Tuck played in 14 games last year. He had 31 total tackles. Now something tells me if Kiwi had played in that many games with that many chances he would have more than the one sack that Tuck had. I am not saying Tuck is not a good talent. Just feel Kiwi has "it",
brakeyawself
Footballguy
Kiwa is a far superior Pass Rusher. Tuck makes up for it a bit in other areas. But Kiwa still is the clear winner I think.
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
A few clarifications.As brakeyawself suggests, 265 pounds isn't undersized for a 4-3 end any longer. It's quickly becoming the norm, if for no other reason that today's OT are so quick for their size it's extremely rare to find a Mario Williams 285lb talent that has the speed to rush from the edge. It's one reason so many teams are moving to a 3-4. The 250lb tweener rush LBs are getting much easier to find.Secondly, Strahan goes 275 and Umenyiora 280. Both are those very types of "rare finds".Thirdly, I've not seen any indication that Kiwanuka has the ability to play in coverage. And he still needs some growth in run support. But his level of domination of the second teamers in pre-season was impressive and should mean he can hold his own at end against the ones. He's got the skill set to be a very good two way end.
massraider
Footballguy
Strahan's age is the primary factor. It's a long term play, thinking that he starts across for Osi down the road.Tuck is a concern, but in pass rush sets, they were using him as a DT. Which makes little sense to me, as I thought he was even smaller than Kiwi.I'm big on the Kiwi bandwagon, for several reasons:1. He got a bum rap in college. Played with an injury, and in a read-and-react scheme at BC. If he had been healthy, and flying up the field at Miami, or FSU, he would have been rated much higher.2. He has looked every bit like a 1st rounder in the preseason. 3. For where he was drafted in rookie drafts, he has the potential to be a steal. You gotta have patience, but that's what dynasty is all about. IMO, his ceiling is higher than Hali.
brakeyawself
Footballguy
I dont know Jene. NFL.com and Yahoo has these stats for Osi, Kiwa and Strahan.OsiPosition: DEHeight: 6-3Weight: 261Born: 11/16/1980College: TroyNFL Experience: 4Strahan Position: DEHeight: 6-5Weight: 255Born: 11/21/1971College: Texas SouthernNFL Experience: 14KiwaPosition: DEHeight: 6-5Weight: 265Born: 03/08/1983College: Boston CollegeNFL Experience: RookieAnd I disntinctly remember seeing him drop back during the preseason on passes. To clarify further, I did not mean that he covered anyone individually, but was pretty far back on numerous occasions to make a tackle after a catch. Further out then you usually see most DE's. Now my thinking on this is that if he can move out that quickly on passes his tackle numbers might increase by quite a few Fantasy Points. Im going to look for a video of this to explain it better, Ill post it if I find it.Thirdly, if Kiwa is 265, I can only see him putting on weight. Another 5 to 10 pounds would put him nearer to that large range, and not take away too much from his speed. Fourth. Mario Williams is a freak. He's going to be a MONSTER IMO. Or at least he has all the tools to be a MONSTER. Better than Strahan or Osi will ever be (skillwise, physical traits) if he puts it all together. I think that is saying ALOT too, as they are two of the premium DE's in the league, and Strahan a HOFer.
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brakeyawself
Footballguy
I couldnt find the preseason footage.
This is his draft video. The quality is terrible, cant help that sorry. But there are two plays in particular I'd like to point out. One is an interception he makes on a short pass. And another is a tackle he makes on a pass towards the sideline.
This is his draft video. The quality is terrible, cant help that sorry. But there are two plays in particular I'd like to point out. One is an interception he makes on a short pass. And another is a tackle he makes on a pass towards the sideline.
Kiwanuka was also ranked above of Mario Williams in terms of draft prospects coming into last year. While Kiwi did not exaclty light up as expected, there are many silly factors that pushed his draft stock down. The kid can play ball and I would not be surprised if he had a better career than Mario Williams. I watched nearly every NC State game last year, and Mario became invisible in several of them. He also played on a line with two other first round picks so he was not seeing an unusual amont of attention. Too often combine numbers get over hyped and football talent gets overlooked. I believe Kiwi has some serious football talent.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Well, he sure had a nice preseason. I don't think he has the speed or power that Tuck has. Remember Tuck ran down Tomlinson 40 yards down the field. NYG coaches love Tuck. They drafted Kiwi, according to them, because they believe in taking BAP with their first pick. It doesn't matter that they already had three nice DEs, a 4th one was the best available player.
I "scouted" Kiwi pretty closely last year. It's true he was hindered with an ankle and other dings, and he played through them valliantly. But he is a one dimensional pass rusher, raw, needs to learn technique and add a bunch of upper body strength. I'll give him a pass on the games he played hurt, but I cannot wipe Senior Bowl week or the Boise Bowl from my memory. He was at full strength for both and he was disappointing. Darryn Colledge flat owned Kiwi for 4 quarters in the Boise Bowl. It was complete domination and Kiwi was not a factor in that game. D'Brick, O'Call, Colledge, Spencer, all gave Kiwi a beat down during Senior Bowl week, but other DEs, Mark Anderson, Lawson, Wimbley gave those tackles all they could handle.
If I sound very down on Kiwi, I'm not. I'm just not very high on him. He is a beauty in pursuit and some of his best plays have been tackles stretching the field instead of sacks. I love his length and body control. The speed he relied on in preseason games will work in regular season games too, but not unless he gets more powerful and develops some better moves. Maybe he already has. I like him better than Hali, fwiw. I thought the Pats would take Kiwi where they took Maroney and groom him to replace McGinest.
eta: Kiwi was never really ranked above Mario, btw. Those early rankings are just the opinions of a bunch of pundits and draftniks-- who early in the year respect the status of juniors and do not regularly rank them with the seniors. In the draftnik forums where underclassmen are regularly discussed, Mario was always regarded as a big tier above any other DE.
I "scouted" Kiwi pretty closely last year. It's true he was hindered with an ankle and other dings, and he played through them valliantly. But he is a one dimensional pass rusher, raw, needs to learn technique and add a bunch of upper body strength. I'll give him a pass on the games he played hurt, but I cannot wipe Senior Bowl week or the Boise Bowl from my memory. He was at full strength for both and he was disappointing. Darryn Colledge flat owned Kiwi for 4 quarters in the Boise Bowl. It was complete domination and Kiwi was not a factor in that game. D'Brick, O'Call, Colledge, Spencer, all gave Kiwi a beat down during Senior Bowl week, but other DEs, Mark Anderson, Lawson, Wimbley gave those tackles all they could handle.
If I sound very down on Kiwi, I'm not. I'm just not very high on him. He is a beauty in pursuit and some of his best plays have been tackles stretching the field instead of sacks. I love his length and body control. The speed he relied on in preseason games will work in regular season games too, but not unless he gets more powerful and develops some better moves. Maybe he already has. I like him better than Hali, fwiw. I thought the Pats would take Kiwi where they took Maroney and groom him to replace McGinest.
eta: Kiwi was never really ranked above Mario, btw. Those early rankings are just the opinions of a bunch of pundits and draftniks-- who early in the year respect the status of juniors and do not regularly rank them with the seniors. In the draftnik forums where underclassmen are regularly discussed, Mario was always regarded as a big tier above any other DE.
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houndirish
Footballguy
Had Kiwi come out after his Junior season there was talk he'd be a top 15 pick. It was hardly a stretch to rank him ahead of Erasmus James and he was the 18th player selected. Kiwi's senior year caused his stock to fall. A large part of that was thanks to nagging ankle injuries and a bum knee that he got courtesy of one of the cheapest shots you'll ever see thanks to a Virginia offensive lineman. While his Bowl game performances left a bit to be desired, I don't know that I'm willing too say he was 100%. However, I will say that when the larger more talented O-Linemen can engage Kiwi, it seems they don't have major difficulty neutralizing him.
For fantasy ball purposes he's not even worth a pick in redraft unless you stock incredibly deep rosters. However for Dynasty he's a stud in waiting. He already has the explosion and burst the great pass rushers possess. What he's lacking is better strength to hold up at the point of attack. Give this kid a year or two of an NFL weight room regimen and he'll be a monster. Maybe it's the homer in me but I dont' think it's a stretch to predict him as the better player over Mario Williams. The one thing I'm not willing to predict is that he'll take Strahan's spot. Justin Tuck has a year of experience playing the backup LDE spot. Kiwi has been lining up behind Osi at the RDE position in preseason and in practice. The Giants surely could make a change down the road but at this point, when Strahan leaves the game, it's Tuck who fills his spot. The Giants have also experimented with sliding Tuck inside while keeping Strahan and Osi on the field. Tuck is strong enough to pull this off, although not in an everydown capacity. Kiwi's contributions, barring injury to Osi and Strahan, will likely be minor this season but give the kid time to develop and he'll make the dynasty owner proud.
For fantasy ball purposes he's not even worth a pick in redraft unless you stock incredibly deep rosters. However for Dynasty he's a stud in waiting. He already has the explosion and burst the great pass rushers possess. What he's lacking is better strength to hold up at the point of attack. Give this kid a year or two of an NFL weight room regimen and he'll be a monster. Maybe it's the homer in me but I dont' think it's a stretch to predict him as the better player over Mario Williams. The one thing I'm not willing to predict is that he'll take Strahan's spot. Justin Tuck has a year of experience playing the backup LDE spot. Kiwi has been lining up behind Osi at the RDE position in preseason and in practice. The Giants surely could make a change down the road but at this point, when Strahan leaves the game, it's Tuck who fills his spot. The Giants have also experimented with sliding Tuck inside while keeping Strahan and Osi on the field. Tuck is strong enough to pull this off, although not in an everydown capacity. Kiwi's contributions, barring injury to Osi and Strahan, will likely be minor this season but give the kid time to develop and he'll make the dynasty owner proud.
