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why ppr sux (1 Viewer)

By any reasonable standard, 50 yards rushing = 50 yards receiving. Yardage = 1st downs. Yardage gets your team closer to scoring. If your team does not score, yardage will make it so that your opponent will need to drive longer for them to score. That matters.Receptions, rushing attempts, and passing attempts/completions are not the same thing as production. A zero yard completion/reception is just as meaningless as a zero yard carry. Not saying reception do NOT matter.... they just matter much less than actually moving the ball.10 yards is 10 yards, however it is gained.(from an old ppr thread)Many ppr leagues only give a point for WR and TE receptions. So this is what happens:Rudi Johnson 1430+ yards, 12 TDs. Very solid. 215 fantasy points.Hines Ward 1000 yards, 6 TDs, 74 rec. Pretty average. 210 fantasy points.400 fewer yards, 6 fewer TDs, the same fantasy points. C'mon.
Not really the best way to look at this argument. I can pull out lots of specific example as well such as this to prove the point the other way.The better way to look at it is this. I'll use 2006 #'s since that's where you're getting your #'s.The #11 ranked RB in 2006 was Rudi Johnson. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 238 pts.The #11 ranked WR in 2006 was Andre Johnson. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 249 pts.The #20 ranked RB in 2006 was Fred Taylor. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 198 pts.The #20 ranked WR in 2006 was Terry Glenn. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 212 pts. At the same time, the #1 scoring WR in 2006 was Marvin Harrison with 303 pts. There were 5 RB's that scored more, and considerably more at that. LT had 483, SJax had 420, LJ had 375, Westbrook had 335, and Gore had 333. Also, Barber and Parker were at 300 and 299, respectively. So even with 1 PPR, your top RB's still outscore the top WR's by a significant margin.What PPR scoring does is level the playing field between WR's and RB's. As you can see, PPR still doesn't keep RB's from dominating the top, with the exception of this year. What it does do is add a little parity to the scoring. Without the PPR, you've got a guy like Houshmandzadeh score 163 pts in non-PPR which was good enough for #11 among WR's in that scoring and still getting outscored by Kevin Jones who put up 169 pts but was ranked #23 among RB's.To me, when the #23 ranked RB is outscoring the #11 ranked WR (a #2 RB vs. a #1 WR), something is wrong. PPR levels the playing field while still allowing the studs to shine.
:rolleyes: There is a school of thought in fantasy circles that wants the game they play to closely mirror real NFL games, and in general tend to push back against "rewarding" players for what they deem as non-impact events. As noted, the 1 rec / 3 yd play is scored the same as a 17 yard run. I understand the thinking, but I don't agree with it.There are several ways to balance out scoring across positions, and PPR is one of them. I grew tired of drafts that would run 15 RBs, 1 QB, 1 WR, another 8 RBs... The reason there is a RB stud draft theory to FFL is because of the wide disparity in scoring between RBs and other positions. With PPR, drafting has evened out across the RB and WR position. It creates more options as owners to build strong teams by employing alternative strategies. As the previous poster noted, PPR does a pretty fair job of balancing the #10 WR and #10 RB.
 
Regarding the comment about is this an unusual year for WRs scoring: to some degree it may be abnormal. But I think we saw this coming with the most recent SB champs along w/rule changes and the size of these stud WRs The NFL teams in general will be moving more in this direction. Every year there are more teams changing to a 2 back system diluting the vaunted "stud RB" drafting theory which is why until recently there was a valid argument for the PPR leagues. With the NFL being a copycat system and this year the top teams IMO (NE, 'Boys, 'Pack, Pitt, Indy) are seriously pass happy teams and the top 2 stud RBs this year LT and Westbrook are playing for maybe the middle of the pack quality teams this will be a trend that continues for awhile. I am pretty sure even up in Minn ADP will be sharing the load w/CT (8-12 carries/game) for years to come. Teams will continue to move toward the use of more Thunder/Lighting systems along w/drafting more Megatron WRs.

In the leagues I am in this year standard scoring, no-PPR this year though I have played in a few in the past the top 23 WRs and top 24 RBs have 100+ pts. So going forward I would say it looks like the PPR is not needed to help shift the top scoring away from the stud RBs.

 
Chew on this example...

I think of it like playing poker. Does the best player win every hand? Does the best player win the majority of hands? Of course not. Does the best scoring system work every time? No, but in the long run things average out for the best.

Looking at only one player on one week is like looking at only one hand in poker. Not the best way to evaluate a scoring system and not the best way to evaluate a poker player.

 
Chew on this example...I think of it like playing poker. Does the best player win every hand? Does the best player win the majority of hands? Of course not. Does the best scoring system work every time? No, but in the long run things average out for the best.Looking at only one player on one week is like looking at only one hand in poker. Not the best way to evaluate a scoring system and not the best way to evaluate a poker player.
Very well put. And again, my biggest reason for liking PPR is how it affects draft day and overall rosters. The most RB heavy teams are NOT the clear favorites. In my 1 PPR league, the 1st round of the draft is virtually all RB's (with the exception of maybe Peyton going into this year), but in the 2nd round, it's all fair game. Some teams continue to focus on RB's, others shift to WR's, and even TE's will go earlier. Without it, in my experience, it's just a RB-fest until they run out and then you start to go for WR's. I don't do it so that I can get 6 pts from Bush catching 6 balls in a week, I do it so that there are a few different approaches on draft day to building a solid team. But, I also recognize that Bush and Westbrook is going to go earlier than a guy like Rudi or Shaun (past couple years, of course) as they are just more valuable in that system. It shouldn't be an issue since EVERYONE in your league is playing by the same rules and is equally helped/hurt by the scoring when it goes for or against them.
 
Seems to be a lot of assumptions being made that those that don't like PPR scoring rules are losing in their FF leagues. I don't know why. You know what they say about people that assume...

 
Seems to be a lot of assumptions being made that those that don't like PPR scoring rules are losing in their FF leagues. I don't know why. You know what they say about people that assume...
Not sure who you're referring to, but a link to the post you're talking about would be helpful....
 
Seems to be a lot of assumptions being made that those that don't like PPR scoring rules are losing in their FF leagues. I don't know why. You know what they say about people that assume...
Not sure who you're referring to, but a link to the post you're talking about would be helpful....
My guess would be that the people who don't like PPR are the ones who haven't figured out how to win in that format, so they think it's luck or a stupid way to score. The scoring system is the same for everyone in the league. Get better at knowing who the best players are in the format instead of whining about how the league scores.
My guess would be that the people who don't like this proposed scoring would be the ones who haven't figured out how to win in this format, so they think it's luck or a stupid way to score.
That took... seconds.
 
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Seems to be a lot of assumptions being made that those that don't like PPR scoring rules are losing in their FF leagues. I don't know why. You know what they say about people that assume...
Not sure who you're referring to, but a link to the post you're talking about would be helpful....
My guess would be that the people who don't like PPR are the ones who haven't figured out how to win in that format, so they think it's luck or a stupid way to score. The scoring system is the same for everyone in the league. Get better at knowing who the best players are in the format instead of whining about how the league scores.
That took... seconds.
Since you said "a lot of assumptions", I was assuming it was coming from more than one person and was an overriding theme and I didn't see that being the case at all. If one post from the infamous H.K. = a lot of assumptions, then I'm sorry I was mistaken. Oh, and it probably took seconds since you knew which post you were referring to. As there were 50 posts on the 1st page and we're onto the second page, forgive me for asking to which you were referring to as I wasn't about to reread the thread from the beginning to see what you were talking about.

 
Since you said "a lot of assumptions", I was assuming it was coming from more than one person and was an overriding theme and I didn't see that being the case at all. If one post from the infamous H.K. = a lot of assumptions, then I'm sorry I was mistaken.
I posted two. I looked at maybe ten posts at most to find those two examples. And those were the obvious ones, not even looking at the obvious implications of others. :D
 
Since you said "a lot of assumptions", I was assuming it was coming from more than one person and was an overriding theme and I didn't see that being the case at all. If one post from the infamous H.K. = a lot of assumptions, then I'm sorry I was mistaken.
I posted two. I looked at maybe ten posts at most to find those two examples. And those were the obvious ones, not even looking at the obvious implications of others. :D
For the record, the second was a sarcastic response to H.K. . . .
 
Since you said "a lot of assumptions", I was assuming it was coming from more than one person and was an overriding theme and I didn't see that being the case at all. If one post from the infamous H.K. = a lot of assumptions, then I'm sorry I was mistaken.
I posted two. I looked at maybe ten posts at most to find those two examples. And those were the obvious ones, not even looking at the obvious implications of others. :goodposting:
For the record, the second was a sarcastic response to H.K. . . .
Really? D'oh!
 
Tom Baker said:
Loke said:
gianmarco said:
Since you said "a lot of assumptions", I was assuming it was coming from more than one person and was an overriding theme and I didn't see that being the case at all. If one post from the infamous H.K. = a lot of assumptions, then I'm sorry I was mistaken.
I posted two. I looked at maybe ten posts at most to find those two examples. And those were the obvious ones, not even looking at the obvious implications of others. :rolleyes:
For the record, the second was a sarcastic response to H.K. . . .
You helped prove my point, too. It doesn't matter what the rules are, as long as they are the same for everyone. The OP was griping about an RB having a lousy day but getting four points for four catches. Well, it's the scoring system his league uses, so the RB was supposed to get those points and the OP has the opportunity to get more reception points than his opponent from his RB.

It's the same thing as griping about Tom Brady throwing four TD passes against you and making the argument that TD passes should count for less in your league.

If you don't like your scoring system, change it or don't play.

 
If you don't like your scoring system, change it or don't play.
Agreed. Though there's nothing with having a preference and stating why you have it. That is what a fantasy football discussion board is for, I would think . . .
True, but I highly doubt the original poster would have started this topic if his RB caught 11 passes and his opponent's had zero receptions.
 
If you don't like your scoring system, change it or don't play.
Agreed. Though there's nothing with having a preference and stating why you have it. That is what a fantasy football discussion board is for, I would think . . .
True, but I highly doubt the original poster would have started this topic if his RB caught 11 passes and his opponent's had zero receptions.
Personally, my league ISN'T a PPR per se. It awards a point for every three catches. I can live with it, but I still don't care for it. But it is my first year in, so I wasn't around when they were having rule discussions to make suggestions. Actually, it is non-standard in a lot of ways. I'll definitely make suggestions for next season.
 
Don't really understand PPR. Do these leagues give RBs points per carry?
PPR leagues are meant to give balance to WRs. The top RBs usually always outscore the top WRs in non-PPR leagues. In my league (FBGs + PPR), the top 2 WRs are Moss and Owens with 322 and 284 points. The top 2 RBs are Westbrook and LT with 313 and 299.Top RBs usually end up with more TDs and more total yards, so PPR leagues tend to make the top WRs as valuable as the top RBs. For instance, how many RBs have topped 20 TDs? Well, while you are counting that list in your head, there has only been 1 WR in 1 year that did that (2 after this year). Also, there have been many, many RBs to get to 2000 total yards or close to it. The highest single season for a WR is 1848.I personally like it that way because then there are more "studs" if you will.
I ran the numbers for this year (YTD). PPR scoring system (1pt/10 yards rush, 1pt/20 yards rec, 6 pts/TD, PPR) vs. Yardage only (0.1 pts/yard, 6pts per TD). Looking at the top 30 RB's & WR's:PPR scoring yielded: 14 RB's & 16 WR'sYardage scoring yielded: 16 RB's & 14 WR'sNot much differnece between the two scoring systems.For 2006 stats the results are more in keeping with what you stated in your post with PPR having better balance.PPR scoring yielded: 19 RB's & 11 WR'sYardage scoring yielded: 22 RB's & 8 WR'sThough PPR only increased the number of WR's in the top 30 by 3.I agree that in the end the scroing system isn't terribly important because all GM's must play under the same rules. However, to me it seems that a scoring system that rewards PPR rewards catching the ball preferentially over yardage.To me Slevins 5 rec for 8 yards (Selvin this week) (5 points in a PPR scoring system) should not be sscored equal to a RB rushing (or receiving) for for 50 yards (1 pt/10 yards).
 
gianmarco said:
By any reasonable standard, 50 yards rushing = 50 yards receiving. Yardage = 1st downs. Yardage gets your team closer to scoring. If your team does not score, yardage will make it so that your opponent will need to drive longer for them to score. That matters.Receptions, rushing attempts, and passing attempts/completions are not the same thing as production. A zero yard completion/reception is just as meaningless as a zero yard carry. Not saying reception do NOT matter.... they just matter much less than actually moving the ball.10 yards is 10 yards, however it is gained.(from an old ppr thread)Many ppr leagues only give a point for WR and TE receptions. So this is what happens:Rudi Johnson 1430+ yards, 12 TDs. Very solid. 215 fantasy points.Hines Ward 1000 yards, 6 TDs, 74 rec. Pretty average. 210 fantasy points.400 fewer yards, 6 fewer TDs, the same fantasy points. C'mon.
Not really the best way to look at this argument. I can pull out lots of specific example as well such as this to prove the point the other way.The better way to look at it is this. I'll use 2006 #'s since that's where you're getting your #'s.The #11 ranked RB in 2006 was Rudi Johnson. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 238 pts.The #11 ranked WR in 2006 was Andre Johnson. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 249 pts.The #20 ranked RB in 2006 was Fred Taylor. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 198 pts.The #20 ranked WR in 2006 was Terry Glenn. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 212 pts. At the same time, the #1 scoring WR in 2006 was Marvin Harrison with 303 pts. There were 5 RB's that scored more, and considerably more at that. LT had 483, SJax had 420, LJ had 375, Westbrook had 335, and Gore had 333. Also, Barber and Parker were at 300 and 299, respectively. So even with 1 PPR, your top RB's still outscore the top WR's by a significant margin.What PPR scoring does is level the playing field between WR's and RB's. As you can see, PPR still doesn't keep RB's from dominating the top, with the exception of this year. What it does do is add a little parity to the scoring. Without the PPR, you've got a guy like Houshmandzadeh score 163 pts in non-PPR which was good enough for #11 among WR's in that scoring and still getting outscored by Kevin Jones who put up 169 pts but was ranked #23 among RB's.To me, when the #23 ranked RB is outscoring the #11 ranked WR (a #2 RB vs. a #1 WR), something is wrong. PPR levels the playing field while still allowing the studs to shine.
I disagree with the concept of using a scoring system to level the playing field. PPR is flawed because it gives a double award for the same event. The beauty of FF is the unpredictablilty of what will happen in a season and each and every week, but trying to predict what will happen better than your compition. It will never be fair regardless of how you may try to doctor the scoring system to make it so. In fact the more you skew scoring (making the scoring unfair) to create balance amoungst positions, the more things become unbalanced with players getting unreasonable rewards for contributions that were not nearly as significant as other players.Having a balanced scoring system that awards all players the same for the same event is really the most fair and equal way of doing it. I do not like PPR because it devalues TD and yardage, which has allready been pointed out above are more significant events than catching a pass, getting a rushing attempt or completing a pass.As far as how an initial draft is influenced by the scoring system. No one is forcing you to draft RB with your 1st 2 or 3 picks. That is a choice you have to make. If RBs dominate scoring and thus are drafted early and often then it is up to you to decide of drafting a RB is a priority or not or if you can deviate from it. VBD principles still apply to any scoring system. Total points become a lot less meaningful if you are using VBD. Should QBs or kickers be drafted high because they are high scorers?What really drives the RB dominated drafts in the early rounds is not the total points (although this does matter) but the position scarcity. Only 32 teams can possibly have a featured RB and many of those teams will not even have one. Instead those teams will use some form of RBBC or keep changing their starters week to week. I think it is important to point out that having RB at a premium in a balanced scoring system (as described above) does make sense because feature RBs touch the ball more than WR. They are at much greater risk to be injured because they handle the ball so often. Also there are only a handful of feature RB in the league, while there are almost always at least 2 WR from every team that are viable starting options. If you want to make your drafts more interesting then increase the number of WR starters that are required. This increases their VBD number and creates more position scarcity at WR then.
 
Chew on this example...I think of it like playing poker. Does the best player win every hand? Does the best player win the majority of hands? Of course not. Does the best scoring system work every time? No, but in the long run things average out for the best.Looking at only one player on one week is like looking at only one hand in poker. Not the best way to evaluate a scoring system and not the best way to evaluate a poker player.
Very well put. And again, my biggest reason for liking PPR is how it affects draft day and overall rosters. The most RB heavy teams are NOT the clear favorites. In my 1 PPR league, the 1st round of the draft is virtually all RB's (with the exception of maybe Peyton going into this year), but in the 2nd round, it's all fair game. Some teams continue to focus on RB's, others shift to WR's, and even TE's will go earlier. Without it, in my experience, it's just a RB-fest until they run out and then you start to go for WR's. I don't do it so that I can get 6 pts from Bush catching 6 balls in a week, I do it so that there are a few different approaches on draft day to building a solid team. But, I also recognize that Bush and Westbrook is going to go earlier than a guy like Rudi or Shaun (past couple years, of course) as they are just more valuable in that system. It shouldn't be an issue since EVERYONE in your league is playing by the same rules and is equally helped/hurt by the scoring when it goes for or against them.
Actually I dont see this tie into FFL scoring systems. Poker rules dont change, NFL rules do, team game plans change to exploit these rule changes if possible, and the value of so called cards (the players themselves) have significantly been modified. I dont see NFL teams resorting back to a "mean" in their game plans which results in FFL scoring backing to a "mean". PPR was viable solution in the past but I dont see it needed any more.If you can't tell that the NFL is passing more and significantly fewer teams are using a 1 back system which is why PPR "was" needed you havent been playing FFL for long or watching the NFL for long. Perhaps these stats will show a general trend in the NFL though I realize the sampling size should be larger and I dont actually know an easy way to find data on the fact fewer teams are using a "RB stud" where a RB gets 80+% of his teams carries over the years is going way down. Total Rushing and Passing Attempts top 8 teams for the year.Top8 Rushing-Att Passing-Att 1987 4132 4102 (15 game sch)1997 4102 4446 (16 game sch)2006 3913 4528 (16 game sch)2007 ~3960 ~4640 for this yearIt could be said that RBs are more involved in the passing game than in years past which is true but that is offset somewhat by the "situational" type of RB player who only plays on 3rd downs. Especially after this years top teams are showing off how to win in the NFL in the playoffs expect even more teams to move their Rush/Pass ratio to Pass with a short ball controlled passing atks. Because one thing is still true today you have to control the clock.
 
in order:

-"standard" scoring sucks (3 points on 30 yards!)

-fractional scoring sucks (boo hoo, I lost my game by 4 tenths of a point because my do-nothing FB had a run called back on penalty) -- get a life

-different scoring for different positions sucks

High-performance scoring gives you something to follow without a statitical ticker tape, is easy to keep track of thus improves your NFL watching experience and awards a zero (heaven forbid! no points!?) for average performances. It also doesn't yield basketball (NBA all-star game) scores.

 
Here would be an interesting scoring system (if could be achieved) to solve this debate:

1) Pts given to any rushing attempt >4 yds per carry

2) Pts given to any reception resulting in > 5 yds

3) Pts given to any reception or rushing attempt resulting in a 1st down (yardage does not matter)

4) Pts for scoring a TD

That would eliminate alot of the garbage PPR points (i.e the Reggie Bush garbage points) you guys were discussing and also not make the "Wille Parker's...NFL leading rusher but not really doing anything spectacular" (the 30+ carries for barely 100yds would have fantasy points greatly reduced as only his rushes that are 4+ yds would produce fantasy points.

Just an idea I had after reading your alls gripes. I actually think PPR has some benefits as it is easier to analze players and game matchups and project PPR than say..today will be a 2 TD day vs a 0 TD day for a given player. PPR to me brings a little more skill to the table as an owner/coach in fantasy and a little less luck.

 
I disagree with the concept of using a scoring system to level the playing field. PPR is flawed because it gives a double award for the same event. The beauty of FF is the unpredictablilty of what will happen in a season and each and every week, but trying to predict what will happen better than your compition. It will never be fair regardless of how you may try to doctor the scoring system to make it so. In fact the more you skew scoring (making the scoring unfair) to create balance amoungst positions, the more things become unbalanced with players getting unreasonable rewards for contributions that were not nearly as significant as other players.Having a balanced scoring system that awards all players the same for the same event is really the most fair and equal way of doing it. I do not like PPR because it devalues TD and yardage, which has allready been pointed out above are more significant events than catching a pass, getting a rushing attempt or completing a pass.As far as how an initial draft is influenced by the scoring system. No one is forcing you to draft RB with your 1st 2 or 3 picks. That is a choice you have to make. If RBs dominate scoring and thus are drafted early and often then it is up to you to decide of drafting a RB is a priority or not or if you can deviate from it. VBD principles still apply to any scoring system. Total points become a lot less meaningful if you are using VBD. Should QBs or kickers be drafted high because they are high scorers?What really drives the RB dominated drafts in the early rounds is not the total points (although this does matter) but the position scarcity. Only 32 teams can possibly have a featured RB and many of those teams will not even have one. Instead those teams will use some form of RBBC or keep changing their starters week to week. I think it is important to point out that having RB at a premium in a balanced scoring system (as described above) does make sense because feature RBs touch the ball more than WR. They are at much greater risk to be injured because they handle the ball so often. Also there are only a handful of feature RB in the league, while there are almost always at least 2 WR from every team that are viable starting options. If you want to make your drafts more interesting then increase the number of WR starters that are required. This increases their VBD number and creates more position scarcity at WR then.
This is an exceptional summary.I'm revisiting this thread because I am involved in discussing our scoring rules in a startup dynasty league, and PPR is the current topic.A few points regarding this and other PPR threads:~~ Obviously nobody cares about other people's scoring systems; we are discussing the relative merits of PPR, not whether or not YOU should use it. Equally obvious is that, regardless of the scoring system, everybody in any particular league uses the same rules, and will draft accordingly. ~~ The main argument against PPR is that it rewards a non-productive stat; a reception is no more productive than a rush attempt, pass attempt, or completion. It is what results from thes events, yards and/or TDs, that matter. There are game situations where yards and TDs might not matter, but we can't really account for these, so that is a non-issue.1 yard rushing is the same as 1 yard receiving. Adding a PPR would have made Reggie Bush's receiving yards worth 275% more than his rushing yards, due to his 5.7 yards per catch. That seems counterintuitive and a bit silly to me. If this were an isolated instance, then no big deal.... but PPR skews things greatly in favor of receiving yards. If my fantasy team has more production (yards and TDs) than my opponent's team, I should win. PPR makes it so that that is not always the case. ~~ The main argument FOR PPR is that it evens out WRs and RBs. If your goal is for a 1200 yards WR to be of equal value to a 1500+ yard RB, some version of PPR will accomplish this. Adding a PPR for WRs and not RBs also makes a 50 catch, 500 yard WR equal to a 1000 yard RB. Ugh. Again, if this is your goal, good job! You did it! Rushing yards are now worth less than receiving yards. ~~ Another argument FOR PPR is to make drafts more interesting by making WRs more valuable than they currently are, so that the first 3 rounds aren't dominated by RBs. Biakabreakable (and others in other threads) makes a great point: positional scarcity is what drives RB value. Changing your starting lineup requirements to emphasize WRs more than RBs is a more "pure" way to make WRs more valuable than they are now.Changing a scoring system to artificially inflate one position seems, well, artificial.To each his own, obviously. I play in 3 money leagues; on has no PPR, one has full-blown PPR, and one has 1/2 PPR for WRs/TEs only. I have fun in all three leagues.
 
I disagree with the concept of using a scoring system to level the playing field. PPR is flawed because it gives a double award for the same event. The beauty of FF is the unpredictablilty of what will happen in a season and each and every week, but trying to predict what will happen better than your compition. It will never be fair regardless of how you may try to doctor the scoring system to make it so. In fact the more you skew scoring (making the scoring unfair) to create balance amoungst positions, the more things become unbalanced with players getting unreasonable rewards for contributions that were not nearly as significant as other players.

Having a balanced scoring system that awards all players the same for the same event is really the most fair and equal way of doing it. I do not like PPR because it devalues TD and yardage, which has allready been pointed out above are more significant events than catching a pass, getting a rushing attempt or completing a pass.

As far as how an initial draft is influenced by the scoring system. No one is forcing you to draft RB with your 1st 2 or 3 picks. That is a choice you have to make. If RBs dominate scoring and thus are drafted early and often then it is up to you to decide of drafting a RB is a priority or not or if you can deviate from it. VBD principles still apply to any scoring system. Total points become a lot less meaningful if you are using VBD. Should QBs or kickers be drafted high because they are high scorers?

What really drives the RB dominated drafts in the early rounds is not the total points (although this does matter) but the position scarcity. Only 32 teams can possibly have a featured RB and many of those teams will not even have one. Instead those teams will use some form of RBBC or keep changing their starters week to week. I think it is important to point out that having RB at a premium in a balanced scoring system (as described above) does make sense because feature RBs touch the ball more than WR. They are at much greater risk to be injured because they handle the ball so often. Also there are only a handful of feature RB in the league, while there are almost always at least 2 WR from every team that are viable starting options. If you want to make your drafts more interesting then increase the number of WR starters that are required. This increases their VBD number and creates more position scarcity at WR then.
This is an exceptional summary.I'm revisiting this thread because I am involved in discussing our scoring rules in a startup dynasty league, and PPR is the current topic.

A few points regarding this and other PPR threads:

~~ Obviously nobody cares about other people's scoring systems; we are discussing the relative merits of PPR, not whether or not YOU should use it. Equally obvious is that, regardless of the scoring system, everybody in any particular league uses the same rules, and will draft accordingly.

~~ The main argument against PPR is that it rewards a non-productive stat; a reception is no more productive than a rush attempt, pass attempt, or completion. It is what results from thes events, yards and/or TDs, that matter. There are game situations where yards and TDs might not matter, but we can't really account for these, so that is a non-issue.

1 yard rushing is the same as 1 yard receiving. Adding a PPR would have made Reggie Bush's receiving yards worth 275% more than his rushing yards, due to his 5.7 yards per catch. That seems counterintuitive and a bit silly to me. If this were an isolated instance, then no big deal.... but PPR skews things greatly in favor of receiving yards. If my fantasy team has more production (yards and TDs) than my opponent's team, I should win. PPR makes it so that that is not always the case.

~~ The main argument FOR PPR is that it evens out WRs and RBs. If your goal is for a 1200 yards WR to be of equal value to a 1500+ yard RB, some version of PPR will accomplish this. Adding a PPR for WRs and not RBs also makes a 50 catch, 500 yard WR equal to a 1000 yard RB. Ugh. Again, if this is your goal, good job! You did it! Rushing yards are now worth less than receiving yards.

~~ Another argument FOR PPR is to make drafts more interesting by making WRs more valuable than they currently are, so that the first 3 rounds aren't dominated by RBs. Biakabreakable (and others in other threads) makes a great point: positional scarcity is what drives RB value. Changing your starting lineup requirements to emphasize WRs more than RBs is a more "pure" way to make WRs more valuable than they are now.

Changing a scoring system to artificially inflate one position seems, well, artificial.

To each his own, obviously. I play in 3 money leagues; on has no PPR, one has full-blown PPR, and one has 1/2 PPR for WRs/TEs only. I have fun in all three leagues.
I disagree with the bold above.Anyway if you want to give points for receptions there is no reason why rushing yards and receiving yards have to be equal.

I play in a league that rewards points for receptions but the rushing yards are greater than the receiving yards.

 
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I think someone needs to add a link to that paper done on equalizing FF positions.

The gist of the thing was to change to a 2 QB league with PPR.

It takes into position scarcity as well as how the positions score.

I think the difference between people who like PPR and not is how they interpret fantasy football. If you want fantasy football to be fun and are not really worried about mimicking real life to an extent, then PPR is for you. Drafting RBs for 3 straight rounds is just not as much fun for some people, and is why they have changed starting positions requiresment and scoring rules.

If you like fantasy football to mimick real life as much as possible, or you find the enjoyment of drafting RBs for 3 straight rounds, then there is no point in changing.

I have found that with PPR and changing to start 2 QBs, it has made the drafts a lot less scripted. Before the drafts would go as follows...3 rounds of RBs, 3 rounds of WRs, round of QBs. It went like this for the most part becuase that is how the value was laid out. With the changes to our league, you now have the decsion of choosing between the 5th RB, 3rd QB or 3rd WR and they are all similar in value. When you are confronted with those types of decisions each round it makes for a much less scripted draft and there are more ways to build a winning team. I, for one, find that more enjoyable.

 
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fridayfrenzy said:
I think someone needs to add a link to that paper done on equalizing FF positions.The gist of the thing was to change to a 2 QB league with PPR. It takes into position scarcity as well as how the positions score.I think the difference between people who like PPR and not is how they interpret fantasy football. If you want fantasy football to be fun and are not really worried about mimicking real life to an extent, then PPR is for you. Drafting RBs for 3 straight rounds is just not as much fun for some people, and is why they have changed starting positions requiresment and scoring rules.If you like fantasy football to mimick real life as much as possible, or you find the enjoyment of drafting RBs for 3 straight rounds, then there is no point in changing.I have found that with PPR and changing to start 2 QBs, it has made the drafts a lot less scripted. Before the drafts would go as follows...3 rounds of RBs, 3 rounds of WRs, round of QBs. It went like this for the most part becuase that is how the value was laid out. With the changes to our league, you now have the decsion of choosing between the 5th RB, 3rd QB or 3rd WR and they are all similar in value. When you are confronted with those types of decisions each round it makes for a much less scripted draft and there are more ways to build a winning team. I, for one, find that more enjoyable.
Though I think you are overgeneralizing, I basically agree with the gist of your post."If it feels good, do it." :thumbdown:
 
By any reasonable standard, 50 yards rushing = 50 yards receiving. Yardage = 1st downs. Yardage gets your team closer to scoring. If your team does not score, yardage will make it so that your opponent will need to drive longer for them to score. That matters.Receptions, rushing attempts, and passing attempts/completions are not the same thing as production. A zero yard completion/reception is just as meaningless as a zero yard carry. Not saying reception do NOT matter.... they just matter much less than actually moving the ball.10 yards is 10 yards, however it is gained.(from an old ppr thread)Many ppr leagues only give a point for WR and TE receptions. So this is what happens:Rudi Johnson 1430+ yards, 12 TDs. Very solid. 215 fantasy points.Hines Ward 1000 yards, 6 TDs, 74 rec. Pretty average. 210 fantasy points.400 fewer yards, 6 fewer TDs, the same fantasy points. C'mon.
Not really the best way to look at this argument. I can pull out lots of specific example as well such as this to prove the point the other way.The better way to look at it is this. I'll use 2006 #'s since that's where you're getting your #'s.The #11 ranked RB in 2006 was Rudi Johnson. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 238 pts.The #11 ranked WR in 2006 was Andre Johnson. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 249 pts.The #20 ranked RB in 2006 was Fred Taylor. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 198 pts.The #20 ranked WR in 2006 was Terry Glenn. In a 1 PPR scoring format, he scored 212 pts. At the same time, the #1 scoring WR in 2006 was Marvin Harrison with 303 pts. There were 5 RB's that scored more, and considerably more at that. LT had 483, SJax had 420, LJ had 375, Westbrook had 335, and Gore had 333. Also, Barber and Parker were at 300 and 299, respectively. So even with 1 PPR, your top RB's still outscore the top WR's by a significant margin.What PPR scoring does is level the playing field between WR's and RB's. As you can see, PPR still doesn't keep RB's from dominating the top, with the exception of this year. What it does do is add a little parity to the scoring. Without the PPR, you've got a guy like Houshmandzadeh score 163 pts in non-PPR which was good enough for #11 among WR's in that scoring and still getting outscored by Kevin Jones who put up 169 pts but was ranked #23 among RB's.To me, when the #23 ranked RB is outscoring the #11 ranked WR (a #2 RB vs. a #1 WR), something is wrong. PPR levels the playing field while still allowing the studs to shine.
I disagree with the concept of using a scoring system to level the playing field. PPR is flawed because it gives a double award for the same event. The beauty of FF is the unpredictablilty of what will happen in a season and each and every week, but trying to predict what will happen better than your compition. It will never be fair regardless of how you may try to doctor the scoring system to make it so. In fact the more you skew scoring (making the scoring unfair) to create balance amoungst positions, the more things become unbalanced with players getting unreasonable rewards for contributions that were not nearly as significant as other players.Having a balanced scoring system that awards all players the same for the same event is really the most fair and equal way of doing it. I do not like PPR because it devalues TD and yardage, which has allready been pointed out above are more significant events than catching a pass, getting a rushing attempt or completing a pass.As far as how an initial draft is influenced by the scoring system. No one is forcing you to draft RB with your 1st 2 or 3 picks. That is a choice you have to make. If RBs dominate scoring and thus are drafted early and often then it is up to you to decide of drafting a RB is a priority or not or if you can deviate from it. VBD principles still apply to any scoring system. Total points become a lot less meaningful if you are using VBD. Should QBs or kickers be drafted high because they are high scorers?What really drives the RB dominated drafts in the early rounds is not the total points (although this does matter) but the position scarcity. Only 32 teams can possibly have a featured RB and many of those teams will not even have one. Instead those teams will use some form of RBBC or keep changing their starters week to week. I think it is important to point out that having RB at a premium in a balanced scoring system (as described above) does make sense because feature RBs touch the ball more than WR. They are at much greater risk to be injured because they handle the ball so often. Also there are only a handful of feature RB in the league, while there are almost always at least 2 WR from every team that are viable starting options. If you want to make your drafts more interesting then increase the number of WR starters that are required. This increases their VBD number and creates more position scarcity at WR then.
:eek: The key point is the scarcity of the RB is the reason they are picked early.I don't think have PPR is unfair in any way as everyone is playing by the same rules. I also understand the "want" of making RB's worth a little less, but you are better off changing the positional requirements (adding another WR or QB). PPR is too artificial to me as it rewards an event that by itself doesn't mean anything (such as a handoff). If you could give a point for a 1st down reception then I am on board but it doesn't seem like these are tracked well.If for some reason you feel the need for PPR, give 1/2 a point to TE's and WR's (or 3/4 for a TE), but don't give RB's any points for a reception as they are almost always long hand offs.
 
I disagree with the concept of using a scoring system to level the playing field. PPR is flawed because it gives a double award for the same event. The beauty of FF is the unpredictablilty of what will happen in a season and each and every week, but trying to predict what will happen better than your compition. It will never be fair regardless of how you may try to doctor the scoring system to make it so. In fact the more you skew scoring (making the scoring unfair) to create balance amoungst positions, the more things become unbalanced with players getting unreasonable rewards for contributions that were not nearly as significant as other players.

Having a balanced scoring system that awards all players the same for the same event is really the most fair and equal way of doing it. I do not like PPR because it devalues TD and yardage, which has allready been pointed out above are more significant events than catching a pass, getting a rushing attempt or completing a pass.

As far as how an initial draft is influenced by the scoring system. No one is forcing you to draft RB with your 1st 2 or 3 picks. That is a choice you have to make. If RBs dominate scoring and thus are drafted early and often then it is up to you to decide of drafting a RB is a priority or not or if you can deviate from it. VBD principles still apply to any scoring system. Total points become a lot less meaningful if you are using VBD. Should QBs or kickers be drafted high because they are high scorers?

What really drives the RB dominated drafts in the early rounds is not the total points (although this does matter) but the position scarcity. Only 32 teams can possibly have a featured RB and many of those teams will not even have one. Instead those teams will use some form of RBBC or keep changing their starters week to week. I think it is important to point out that having RB at a premium in a balanced scoring system (as described above) does make sense because feature RBs touch the ball more than WR. They are at much greater risk to be injured because they handle the ball so often. Also there are only a handful of feature RB in the league, while there are almost always at least 2 WR from every team that are viable starting options. If you want to make your drafts more interesting then increase the number of WR starters that are required. This increases their VBD number and creates more position scarcity at WR then.
This is an exceptional summary.I'm revisiting this thread because I am involved in discussing our scoring rules in a startup dynasty league, and PPR is the current topic.

A few points regarding this and other PPR threads:

~~ Obviously nobody cares about other people's scoring systems; we are discussing the relative merits of PPR, not whether or not YOU should use it. Equally obvious is that, regardless of the scoring system, everybody in any particular league uses the same rules, and will draft accordingly.

~~ The main argument against PPR is that it rewards a non-productive stat; a reception is no more productive than a rush attempt, pass attempt, or completion. It is what results from thes events, yards and/or TDs, that matter. There are game situations where yards and TDs might not matter, but we can't really account for these, so that is a non-issue.

1 yard rushing is the same as 1 yard receiving. Adding a PPR would have made Reggie Bush's receiving yards worth 275% more than his rushing yards, due to his 5.7 yards per catch. That seems counterintuitive and a bit silly to me. If this were an isolated instance, then no big deal.... but PPR skews things greatly in favor of receiving yards. If my fantasy team has more production (yards and TDs) than my opponent's team, I should win. PPR makes it so that that is not always the case.

~~ The main argument FOR PPR is that it evens out WRs and RBs. If your goal is for a 1200 yards WR to be of equal value to a 1500+ yard RB, some version of PPR will accomplish this. Adding a PPR for WRs and not RBs also makes a 50 catch, 500 yard WR equal to a 1000 yard RB. Ugh. Again, if this is your goal, good job! You did it! Rushing yards are now worth less than receiving yards.

~~ Another argument FOR PPR is to make drafts more interesting by making WRs more valuable than they currently are, so that the first 3 rounds aren't dominated by RBs. Biakabreakable (and others in other threads) makes a great point: positional scarcity is what drives RB value. Changing your starting lineup requirements to emphasize WRs more than RBs is a more "pure" way to make WRs more valuable than they are now.

Changing a scoring system to artificially inflate one position seems, well, artificial.

To each his own, obviously. I play in 3 money leagues; on has no PPR, one has full-blown PPR, and one has 1/2 PPR for WRs/TEs only. I have fun in all three leagues.
I disagree with the bold above.Anyway if you want to give points for receptions there is no reason why rushing yards and receiving yards have to be equal.

I play in a league that rewards points for receptions but the rushing yards are greater than the receiving yards.
I agree with the bolded part. I also think that one of the issues when discussing PPR would be the purist part of the game. It is nice to know that every yard earned is the same for RB's, WR's and TE without having to figure it all out.I play in one league where we give TE's a point for every 7.5 yards and everyone else a point for every 10 yards and both WR's and TE's get .5 PPR. It works and I enjoy it, but my preference would be no PPR. I will say that there is NO reason on earth to give a RB any ppr even a small one.

 
fridayfrenzy said:
I think someone needs to add a link to that paper done on equalizing FF positions.The gist of the thing was to change to a 2 QB league with PPR. It takes into position scarcity as well as how the positions score.I think the difference between people who like PPR and not is how they interpret fantasy football. If you want fantasy football to be fun and are not really worried about mimicking real life to an extent, then PPR is for you. Drafting RBs for 3 straight rounds is just not as much fun for some people, and is why they have changed starting positions requiresment and scoring rules.If you like fantasy football to mimick real life as much as possible, or you find the enjoyment of drafting RBs for 3 straight rounds, then there is no point in changing.I have found that with PPR and changing to start 2 QBs, it has made the drafts a lot less scripted. Before the drafts would go as follows...3 rounds of RBs, 3 rounds of WRs, round of QBs. It went like this for the most part becuase that is how the value was laid out. With the changes to our league, you now have the decsion of choosing between the 5th RB, 3rd QB or 3rd WR and they are all similar in value. When you are confronted with those types of decisions each round it makes for a much less scripted draft and there are more ways to build a winning team. I, for one, find that more enjoyable.
If you play Dynasty you don't worry about the 1st rounds of drafts :confused:
 
Everybody has pretty much made up their minds where they stand on the issue, but I just wanted to add a little statistical fuel to the fire. :fishing:

Derrick mason had 103 catches for around 1080 yards and 6 TDs last season.

Awarding 1/2 ppr for WRs, but not RBs, made him the #17 WR. Ranked against the RBs, he would have been #8.

Without any PPR, Mason ranked WR20.... about the same. Ranked against the RBs, he fell to #25.

So 24 RBs actually outproduced Mason, but in a system that levels out RBs and WRs by awarding 1/2 PPR, only 7 RBs outproduced him.

That is the league I play in, so dems da breaks... but that is nutty. :confused:

(edited for spelling.)

 
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I will say that there is NO reason on earth to give a RB any ppr even a small one.
Interesting comment for a subjective topic based on personal preference. What happened to the guy who said these things?
Liquid Tension Jan 14 2008, 11:27 AM Post #1

I would like to see us get more good discussions with people "seeking the truth and again, not just trying to be "right."

...

I see too many people post hyperbole......why does everything have to be so extreme?

...

keep an open mind when someone brings some good points to the other side, give them credit and maybe let it shape your opnion a little...it makes the boards a lot better.
linkIt's been a good thread with lots of quality sharing of ideas, so please try to abide by the sames standards you demand of others.

Thank you.

 
Everybody has pretty much made up their minds where they stand on the issue, but I just wanted to add a little statistical fuel to the fire. ;)

Derrick mason had 103 catches for around 1080 yards and 6 TDs last season.

Awarding 1/2 ppr for WRs, but not RBs, made him the #17 WR. Ranked against the RBs, he would have been #8.

Without any PPR, Mason ranked WR20.... about the same. Ranked against the RBs, he fell to #25.

So 24 RBs actually outproduced Mason, but in a system that levels out RBs and WRs by awarding 1/2 PPR, only 7 RBs outproduced him.

That is the league I play in, so dems da breaks... but that is nutty. :thumbdown:

(edited for spelling.)
If you are speaking just on total points scored, the comparison between Mason and RBs doesn't mean much. You need to look at the VBD side of things to determine where Mason would rank.

How much does Mason outscore the worst starting WR? Compare that to how much the RBs outscore the 24th RB.

 
Don't really understand PPR. Do these leagues give RBs points per carry?
No they don't but then again catching a pass is harder to do than taking a handoff.It may not be worth a full point, but there is an additional skill needed to catch the pass that isn’t required to take a handoff.
:) This is half the reason why I play PPR. Partly to balance RBs and WRs, but also because catching the ball takes skill and should be rewarded. People make comparisons to RBs taking handoffs all the time, but it's totally different. Not much skill is taking a handoff. Also, RBs take more handoffs than WRs catch passes. Awarding points per carry would only further the gap between RBs and WRs.
 

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