Why soccer will never be big in the USA....... (2 Viewers)

[El Floppo]

Agreed, but that's what we are talking about US sports. If you want to include everything then you need to include F1 and NASCAR....which complicates it even more.

or include foreign hockey, baseball, basketball and football leagues and the revenues they generate in the US. 

I don't know if we're discussing whether MLS is as big as the NHL... (it's not) but soccer as a whole here in the US (including all things NR has mentioned from world cup to liga Mex)? I'm sure somebody could find a way of quantifying that.

BUT I WISH THEY"D GET RID OF THE BLUE LINE

 

[El Floppo]

That's exactly why I used revenue. It includes things like ticket sales, ad revenue, sponsorships, ratings, etc. IMO it's the best overall indicator of popularity. There are Premiere League teams in the US? Thought that was Europe, shows how much soccer I know lol. Regardless let's use the revenue as the indicator of popularity, otherwise it gets really sticky due to arena size and games per season.

every summer teams from the EPL and other leagues tour the US playing games (that are sold-out at the biggest US arenas)

 

[B Maverick]

BUT I WISH THEY"D GET RID OF THE BLUE LINE

Shouldnt they make the goal bigger?  Keepers are getting bigger, add the pad sizes...

 

[NewlyRetired]

 There are Premiere League teams in the US? Thought that was Europe, shows how much soccer I know lol. 

EPL games are on TV here in the US and EPL teams play many friendly games here in the summer during their preseason.

There are no real EPL league games played in the US.

 

[Hawks64]

or include foreign hockey, baseball, basketball and football leagues and the revenues they generate in the US. 

I don't know if we're discussing whether MLS is as big as the NHL... (it's not) but soccer as a whole here in the US (including all things NR has mentioned from world cup to liga Mex)? I'm sure somebody could find a way of quantifying that.

BUT I WISH THEY"D GET RID OF THE BLUE LINE

Well it was big in the US so I was using strictly US professional sports. Worldwide soccer is very big but it's not in the US and I have no idea how we can get the revenue numbers for just the US for soccer leagues from all over the world.

 

[Hawks64]

Shouldnt they make the goal bigger?  Keepers are getting bigger, add the pad sizes...

NHL wants scoring up as they think it will increase revenue. I disagree but that's a whole different discussion.

 

[NewlyRetired]

That's exactly why I used revenue. It includes things like ticket sales, ad revenue, sponsorships, ratings, etc. IMO it's the best overall indicator of popularity.

I agree but that only really works for comparing leagues.  

How do you factor in the ginormous revenue something like the World Cup and World Cup Qualifiers, or Euro's or Copa America generate?  

None of that revenue can be traced to specific leagues.  Most of it can be traced straight into the pockets of the criminals who run FIFA though

 

[NewlyRetired]

Well it was big in the US so I was using strictly US professional sports. Worldwide soccer is very big but it's not in the US and I have no idea how we can get the revenue numbers for just the US for soccer leagues from all over the world.

I guess you can look at some of the tv contracts for a small sample.

The US tv contract for the EPL is $1 billion over 6 years.

The US tv contract for the 2014 and 2018 World Cups is also $1 billion.

I have no way to track the revenue generated from all the non MLS soccer games played in US stadiums every year though

 

[Hawks64]

I agree but that only really works for comparing leagues.  

How do you factor in the ginormous revenue something like the World Cup and World Cup Qualifiers, or Euro's or Copa America generate?  

None of that revenue can be traced to specific leagues.  Most of it can be traced straight into the pockets of the criminals who run FIFA though

I imagine there is a motivating factor to report lower numbers for the US leagues as well since it's a factor in the capped leagues. Keep the revenue down and caps stay down.

And no idea how to factor that in.

 

[B Maverick]

NHL wants scoring up as they think it will increase revenue. I disagree but that's a whole different discussion.

I was just poking fun with floppo.  But to your point, the American mentality is for more scoring.  Seems like thats the #1 complaint against soccer (not sure it is or isnt, just a feeling through these discussions).  Not surprised NHL is looking for it to. but a 4-2 game is 28-14 in the NFL.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I imagine there is a motivating factor to report lower numbers for the US leagues as well since it's a factor in the capped leagues. Keep the revenue down and caps stay down.

And no idea how to factor that in.

It is almost impossible to do because once you throw in the massive corruption in soccer, the state space of the variables explodes

 

[Hawks64]

I guess you can look at some of the tv contracts for a small sample.

The US tv contract for the EPL is $1 billion over 6 years.

The US tv contract for the 2014 and 2018 World Cups is also $1 billion.

I have no way to track the revenue generated from all the non MLS soccer games played in US stadiums every year though

So it seems like Soccer in the US may be as big as the NHL, which makes it the 2nd red headed step child sport in the US.

 

[NewlyRetired]

So it seems like Soccer in the US may be as big as the NHL, which makes it the 2nd red headed step child sport in the US.

yeah, that sounds about right to me.

What many who follow this find interesting is that the gap in popularity between soccer and hockey was ENORMOUS just 10-15 years ago and that gap may be all but gone in just one decade-ish.

There is no way to predict what things will look like in 10-15 years from now.  Soccer could keep growing or it could hit a bubble point.  Impossible to tell.

 

[Hawks64]

I was just poking fun with floppo.  But to your point, the American mentality is for more scoring.  Seems like thats the #1 complaint against soccer (not sure it is or isnt, just a feeling through these discussions).  Not surprised NHL is looking for it to. but a 4-2 game is 28-14 in the NFL.

NHL average has been ~2.6 goals per team so on average it would be a NFL game with 5 scores. I prefer a good game regardless of score though, so 1-0 or 6-3 doesn't really matter to me as long as it's a good game and by that I mean good end to end flow.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

yeah, that sounds about right to me.

What many who follow this find interesting is that the gap in popularity between soccer and hockey was ENORMOUS just 10-15 years ago and that gap may be all but gone in just one decade-ish.

There is no way to predict what things will look like in 10-15 years from now.  Soccer could keep growing or it could hit a bubble point.  Impossible to tell.

Hockey will never get past being a regional sport in the US. Would not at all be surprised to see soccer overtake it.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I'd say that soccer was significantly behind boxing as well in cultural currency when I was growing up.  I don't think that's true anymore either.  None of this stuff is linear or simple though.  It's not like soccer then automatically picks off basketball or baseball.  UFC could become bigger than all of them, but it's interesting to pause and think of where we are.  I can't prove it, but I imagine if I were to walk into a typical American junior high and start asking kids to name famous athletes, I'd get a number of Messi answers.  Not as many as LeBron or Tom Brady, perhaps, but a lot.  I'd wager as many as whoever you'd suggest is the biggest hockey star (Ovechkin?  I live in DC).  Maybe as big as the biggest baseball star (Kershaw?  Trout?).  And we're talking about a guy who plays on another continent.  That's kind of amazing. 

 

[Steve Tasker]

Also doesn't have the disaster that was the lockout in 04/05. No TV and attendance way down across the league, revenue way down. NHL has made a big comeback and still isn't close to the big 3. NBA at 3 has almost double the revenue.

Doesn't matter to me.  I kinda like that soccer is a niche sport, to be honest.  I'm a big fan of boxing, fencing, and professional chess, too.......I'm not arguing with you.  

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Can I annoy Tasker by suggesting ways to "fix" fencing?

First idea.  How is Team Fencing not like 8 guys with swords on each side at once?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

And WTH is up with "right of way"?  You stick the guy first, you should win.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Also, the winner of each bout should have to scale a giant curtain and then jump out a window to a waiting carriage to take him to the Countess.

 

[The Gator]

Remove the helmets

Give them great swords

 

[El Floppo]

Remove the helmets

Give them great swords

knives, IMO.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Repurpose Fox's old NHL puck tracking tech so that the foils are transformed into lightsabers for TV.

 

[The Gator]

Repurpose Fox's old NHL puck tracking tech so that the foils are transformed into lightsabers for TV.

YES

 

[Steve Tasker]

Repurpose Fox's old NHL puck tracking tech so that the foils are transformed into lightsabers for TV.

This would be amazing.

 

[The Z Machine]

The thing about soccer that people don't get (until they get it) is that the goals aren't the most compelling portion of the game. Rather, the anticipation of the goal is the juice. As a fan, the collective covering of the eyes when your team is just barely holding on to a lead, or the entire crowd biting their nails in the hopes that their team can equalize.  The emotion in soccer can be (although not always) higher than any other sport.

IMO, the only thing that rivals it is the repeated, primal joy (or anger) in indoor volleyball. 

 

[comfortably numb]

The thing about soccer that people don't get (until they get it) is that the goals aren't the most compelling portion of the game. Rather, the anticipation of the goal is the juice. As a fan, the collective covering of the eyes when your team is just barely holding on to a lead, or the entire crowd biting their nails in the hopes that their team can equalize.  The emotion in soccer can be (although not always) higher than any other sport.

IMO, the only thing that rivals it is the repeated, primal joy (or anger) in indoor volleyball. 

Yep, goals are like intercourse.

You blink it goes in and it's over. The setup, anticipation and anxious feelings are foreplay.

 

[TheAristocrat]

The thing about soccer that people don't get (until they get it) is that the goals aren't the most compelling portion of the game. Rather, the anticipation of the goal is the juice. As a fan, the collective covering of the eyes when your team is just barely holding on to a lead, or the entire crowd biting their nails in the hopes that their team can equalize.  The emotion in soccer can be (although not always) higher than any other sport.

IMO, the only thing that rivals it is the repeated, primal joy (or anger) in indoor volleyball. 

Hockey has that same feeling for me but on a whole different level for me.  I was there when my Golden Gophers defeated Maine in Saint Paul in a 4-3 overtime win.  The level of intensity I felt in these moments below can still move me to tears because I remember how much emotion flooded me during the game.  When Shute (spelling?) from Maine scores to tie and puts his finger to his lips to shush the crowd, that was on the jumbos.  There weren't many boos.  He shushed us and did so appropriately.  But the rush of the game winning goal?  I can't even begin to explain it.  Or Johnny Pohl's goal in the second that was driving right at me 17 rows behind the goalie?  ####.  I exploded out of my seat on the sound of the post because I saw the direction of the puck.  When Koalska scores to tie and goes TO THE BENCH and not to the five on the ice for a team celebration?  I busted into proud tears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqRfMPRJkY8

Soccer bores me due to the lack of speed, difference in actual opportunity compared to other sports, and a general lack of creativity.  I get that those are there and are part of the game of soccer.  But it completely lacks in comparison to the major American sports.  That's just me though.  And if you really just love soccer, good on you and enjoy it.  Just not my thing.

 

[msommer]

Hockey has that same feeling for me but on a whole different level for me.  I was there when my Golden Gophers defeated Maine in Saint Paul in a 4-3 overtime win.  The level of intensity I felt in these moments below can still move me to tears because I remember how much emotion flooded me during the game.  When Shute (spelling?) from Maine scores to tie and puts his finger to his lips to shush the crowd, that was on the jumbos.  There weren't many boos.  He shushed us and did so appropriately.  But the rush of the game winning goal?  I can't even begin to explain it.  Or Johnny Pohl's goal in the second that was driving right at me 17 rows behind the goalie?  ####.  I exploded out of my seat on the sound of the post because I saw the direction of the puck.  When Koalska scores to tie and goes TO THE BENCH and not to the five on the ice for a team celebration?  I busted into proud tears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqRfMPRJkY8

Soccer bores me due to the lack of speed, difference in actual opportunity compared to other sports, and a general lack of creativity.  I get that those are there and are part of the game of soccer.  But it completely lacks in comparison to the major American sports.  That's just me though.  And if you really just love soccer, good on you and enjoy it.  Just not my thing.

Based on your handle you should like cricket...

 

[Christo]

I'd watch soccer if they got rid of the off-side rule. It's so arbitrary and dumb.

No, you wouldn't. It'd suck.

 

[Christo]

So compare the Premier League then, which isn't even US which is what this thread is about IIRC. And Premiere is still in the same position as the NHL, NBA still almost double the revenue. It's going to be a very long time till something other than NFL, MLB, and NBA are in the top 3.

It's always going to lag because of the game times. Put the first NFL game of the week on Saturday morning at 6:30a.m. and MNF on at 3:00 p.m. and it would suffer too.

 

[cstu]

The thing about soccer that people don't get (until they get it) is that the goals aren't the most compelling portion of the game. Rather, the anticipation of the goal is the juice. As a fan, the collective covering of the eyes when your team is just barely holding on to a lead, or the entire crowd biting their nails in the hopes that their team can equalize.  The emotion in soccer can be (although not always) higher than any other sport.

IMO, the only thing that rivals it is the repeated, primal joy (or anger) in indoor volleyball. 

Where's the anticipation when your team is down 0-2 and you know the game is over?

 

[Hawks64]

It's always going to lag because of the game times. Put the first NFL game of the week on Saturday morning at 6:30a.m. and MNF on at 3:00 p.m. and it would suffer too.

World wide revenue still puts it in 5th among the US sports It will be a very long time before it tops the NFL at 13BN.

 

[The Z Machine]

Where's the anticipation when your team is down 0-2 and you know the game is over?

I said sometimes... A dead game is a dead game.  Happens in all sports.

At least you know that the game will be over in a set amount of time, +/- 3 mins.  You don't have to waste any more time waiting for the 9th inning or more stupid commercials.

 

[The Gator]

Yep, goals are like intercourse.

You blink it goes in and it's over. The setup, anticipation and anxious feelings are foreplay.

 

[The Gator]

Where's the anticipation when your team is down 0-2 and you know the game is over?

                                                         Rafa Benitez likes this

 

[AAABatteries]

Yep, goals are like intercourse.

You blink it goes in and it's over. The setup, anticipation and anxious feelings are foreplay.

Sorry about the PE.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Where's the anticipation when your team is down 0-2 and you know the game is over?

"The most dangerous score" 

 

[shader]

Where's the anticipation when your team is down 0-2 and you know the game is over?

Depends on who you're playing.  If you're playing Liverpool, you're probably still pretty confident.

 

[roadkill1292]

One of the best things about being a soccer fan is that, sooner or later, in any thread even remotely connected to the sport you'll come across a gratuitous dig at Liverpool.

 

[shader]

World wide revenue still puts it in 5th among the US sports It will be a very long time before it tops the NFL at 13BN.

The Premier league would actually be 4th in worldwide revenue and is knocking on the door of 3rd (NBA) as they just signed a massive TV deal that isn't included in the numbers.

Either way, it's apples and oranges as the Premier League doesn't = soccer.  You also have the Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga, the MLS, and of course the Champions League.  Then of course the Euros, Copa America and the World Cup.

Basically, soccer is king across the world and financially as a sport, but of course you already knew that.

How we measure soccer's "standing" among people in the US? I have no idea. 

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

One of the best things about being a soccer fan is that, sooner or later, in any thread even remotely connected to the sport you'll come across a gratuitous dig at Liverpool.

You'll Never Mock Alone

 

[shader]

Where's the anticipation when your team is down 0-2 and you know the game is over?

His post was dead on accurate.  I've been at the peak of football fandom.  I've lived and breathed Alabama football, I've written countless fantasy football articles, I've counted the days until the draft, until mini-camps, until fall practice, analyzed pre-season games, and celebrated opening day with much excitement.

But there's nothing like the tension in soccer.  The only problem is, it's only tense if you care.  If you just flip on the TV and watch a game, you may not notice the tension.

But if you're a fan of a team, the tension is unbelievable and hard to compare to any other sport.  I suppose I can compare it to the 2-minute drill when your team is losing by 5 (or winning by 5).  That's a very tense moment in football.

In soccer, goals are so important that an entire HALF, heck, an entire GAME can feel that way.  If you're down 1-0 and you start the 2nd half, you'll sit at the screen transfixed for 45 minutes just waiting on the equalizer.  Or conversely if you're leading at halftime 1-0, you will be unbelievably nervous for the entire half and the tension just builds and builds and builds, with no commercials, stoppages or breaks to relieve the tension.

Trust me, my 30-year old self would read the above and call me a fool, but it's true!

 

[Steve Tasker]

The only sport I've ever experienced that truly rivals the tension of a major soccer game is playoff hockey.

 

[shader]

Interesting stat for the "soccer is boring" guys.

A soccer game lasts about 110 minutes including HT.  Average goals per game:  around 2.7

So you need to watch a game for 40.7 minutes to see a goal.

An NFL game lasts about 190 minutes.  Average TD's per game:  4.7

So you need to watch a game for 40.4 minutes to see a TD.

So yeah, the NFL has more scoring in a single game....but I can watch 2 soccer games in the time it takes to watch 1 NFL game and the goals=td's will be even.

 

[Kafka]

You'll Never Mock Alone

Apparently, I do....

 

[CletiusMaximus]

The only sport I've ever experienced that truly rivals the tension of a major soccer game is playoff hockey.

Have you seen Chessboxing?

 

[greenroom]

Soccer is going to be huge in the USA sooner than most think.  The US is finally building the lower leagues and getting huge money pumped into them  take USL and NASL and you have 40ish teams and growing.  

Take my kids as an example.. Football is king and Basketball is a close second.  But they refuse to go or watch baseball as it is to slow.  They love soccer and enjoy watching it and going to the games. 

And once USL get Div 2, I think at some point you are going to see a merger between USL and NASL which is only going to make the "foundation" stronger.  Many people forget that MLS and really this attempt at soccer is what 20 years old.  I have a feeling within the next 10-15 years or when the next world cup comes to the US, that it will be on par with MLB and NHL. 

TV ratings are only one aspect of the growth.  Look at expansion fees.  for USL they are up to 5 million, and MLS is up to 200 million (assumed based on reports for San Antonio looking to move up) 

 

[Steve Tasker]

Have you seen Chessboxing?

Yes, it's amazing. 

 

[shader]

Soccer is going to be huge in the USA sooner than most think.  The US is finally building the lower leagues and getting huge money pumped into them  take USL and NASL and you have 40ish teams and growing.  

Take my kids as an example.. Football is king and Basketball is a close second.  But they refuse to go or watch baseball as it is to slow.  They love soccer and enjoy watching it and going to the games. 

And once USL get Div 2, I think at some point you are going to see a merger between USL and NASL which is only going to make the "foundation" stronger.  Many people forget that MLS and really this attempt at soccer is what 20 years old.  I have a feeling within the next 10-15 years or when the next world cup comes to the US, that it will be on par with MLB and NHL. 

TV ratings are only one aspect of the growth.  Look at expansion fees.  for USL they are up to 5 million, and MLS is up to 200 million (assumed based on reports for San Antonio looking to move up) 

You may be right.  But that "200 million" expansion fee seems out of whack to me.  The MLS really hasn't caught on in terms of television.  

Earlier in this thread I laid out the "best-case scenario" for the MLS.  the worst-case is that it goes into major financial troubles, over-expands, and collapses.  Heavy expansion of a product that is nowhere near the world's best seems risky.

I was reading today about some really bad TV ratings for the MLS on Fox.  At this point, the MLS is going to need to do more than just fill seats in order to expand.  It's going to have to somehow become a big part of America's sporting psyche to grab viewers. 

Heck, I'm a big soccer fan and I don't even watch, so they may be fighting an uphill battle here.  They have to continue with a long-term plan, imo, and not get greedy or try to make things happen quickly.