Wildcat Formation - Plays for a Loss (1 Viewer)

[Sake-Bombers]

This doesn't affect any games I'm in, and maybe it has a simple answer:

How come direct snap plays out of the Wildcat that go for a loss don't get counted as a sack?

I thought about this as I watched Ronnie Brown get tackled for a loss after running to the left out of the wildcat and being unable to turn the corner I looked up on the official gamebook, and it was just counted as a rushing loss, but not a sack. Why wouldn't that be a sack? It would seem to have big FF consequences if it was. For one, the RB who received the direct snap wouldn't get negative yardage on the play, and two, the defense would be credited with another sack. There might be a clear cut rule somewhere about why this is ruled like that, because I think if a QB runs an option, for example, but doesn't pitch and gets tackled for a loss, it counts as negative yardage but not a sack.

Anyone have any insight/thoughts on this?

 

[MDSkinner]

Why just ask based on the wildcat? Theoretically any run play that is still behind the line of scrimmage could be a pass play.

I have no idea why it is scored as it is, but it would seem to me if you were going to make that a sack that you would have to essentially make any play tackled for a loss a sack, since they could still potentially be pass plays.

 

[Bri]

direct snap to a non-quarterback

sack involves the QB

 

[TakiToki]

This doesn't affect any games I'm in, and maybe it has a simple answer:How come direct snap plays out of the Wildcat that go for a loss don't get counted as a sack?I thought about this as I watched Ronnie Brown get tackled for a loss after running to the left out of the wildcat and being unable to turn the corner I looked up on the official gamebook, and it was just counted as a rushing loss, but not a sack. Why wouldn't that be a sack? It would seem to have big FF consequences if it was. For one, the RB who received the direct snap wouldn't get negative yardage on the play, and two, the defense would be credited with another sack. There might be a clear cut rule somewhere about why this is ruled like that, because I think if a QB runs an option, for example, but doesn't pitch and gets tackled for a loss, it counts as negative yardage but not a sack. Anyone have any insight/thoughts on this?

It's about intent to pass. I saw the Brown play to which you referred, and I thought he was looking to pass and it would be ruled a sack. I could see that getting changed later in the week. I remember a play last year in which Brandon Marshall took an end-around or reverse and was attempting to pass, but was tackled by Aaron Kampman and it was ruled a sack.If a QB gets tackled behind the line on an option or QB draw, then it is not a sack and is negative rushing yards. Just like the kneel-downs at the ends of games are counted as negative rushing yards.

 

[TakiToki]

BTW, Ronnie Brown play was ruled a sack:

2-9-50 (8:21) (Shotgun) R.Brown sacked at MIA 42 for -8 yards (J.Moss).

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/2...EN_Gamebook.pdf

 

[SlaX]

To be considered a sack the player must intend to throw a forward pass. If the play is designed for the player to rush the ball, any loss is subtracted from the player's rushing total.

This is why you'll never see a QB credited with a sack on a kneel down.

 

[Sake-Bombers]

BTW, Ronnie Brown play was ruled a sack:

2-9-50 (8:21) (Shotgun) R.Brown sacked at MIA 42 for -8 yards (J.Moss).

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/2...EN_Gamebook.pdf

Nice, I missed it there, I guess I didn't look closely enough.So I think that's the simple answer then - it's all about intent to pass. I'm presuming that's a judgment call of the scorer, then.

Thanks!

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

BTW, Ronnie Brown play was ruled a sack:

2-9-50 (8:21) (Shotgun) R.Brown sacked at MIA 42 for -8 yards (J.Moss).

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/2...EN_Gamebook.pdf

Since sacks don't count as negative rushing yardage for QB's in the NFL (they used to in college, not sure about now), I assume they also wouldn't count as negative rushing yardage for Wildcat RBs. If so, that's an interesting little wrinkle on Ronnie Brown's future value if 5-8 of his "touches" a game cannot result in negative yardage.ETA - missed the note above re: passing intent. So what constitutes "intent"? A dropback? What about in shotgun formation?

 

[TakiToki]

BTW, Ronnie Brown play was ruled a sack:

2-9-50 (8:21) (Shotgun) R.Brown sacked at MIA 42 for -8 yards (J.Moss).

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/2...EN_Gamebook.pdf

Since sacks don't count as negative rushing yardage for QB's in the NFL (they used to in college, not sure about now), I assume they also wouldn't count as negative rushing yardage for Wildcat RBs. If so, that's an interesting little wrinkle on Ronnie Brown's future value if 5-8 of his "touches" a game cannot result in negative yardage.ETA - missed the note above re: passing intent. So what constitutes "intent"? A dropback? What about in shotgun formation?

Intent is subjective. The scorer determines whether or not a player was attempting to throw a pass. Has nothing to do with formation or position.I believe that this is the only subjective category of official NFL statistics. Things like tackles and pass defenses aren't official, unless it's recently been changed. Sacks became an official statistic in the early '80s, I believe. I would guess that the only reason sacks are official is because teams really wanted to use performance incentives related to them, and the CBA has restrictions on how non-official stats can be used. Just a wild guess, though.

 

[pantagrapher]

BTW, Ronnie Brown play was ruled a sack:

2-9-50 (8:21) (Shotgun) R.Brown sacked at MIA 42 for -8 yards (J.Moss).

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/2...EN_Gamebook.pdf

Since sacks don't count as negative rushing yardage for QB's in the NFL (they used to in college, not sure about now), I assume they also wouldn't count as negative rushing yardage for Wildcat RBs. If so, that's an interesting little wrinkle on Ronnie Brown's future value if 5-8 of his "touches" a game cannot result in negative yardage.ETA - missed the note above re: passing intent. So what constitutes "intent"? A dropback? What about in shotgun formation?

They can probably judge pretty accurately based on offensive linemen crossing the line of scrimmage.

 

[This_Guy]

I really think the should change the stat from Sacks to Tackles for Loss. Really stopping the other team behind the line of scrimmage is what is important. It shouldn't matter what the offense was trying to accomplish.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

BTW, Ronnie Brown play was ruled a sack:

2-9-50 (8:21) (Shotgun) R.Brown sacked at MIA 42 for -8 yards (J.Moss).

http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/2...EN_Gamebook.pdf

Since sacks don't count as negative rushing yardage for QB's in the NFL (they used to in college, not sure about now), I assume they also wouldn't count as negative rushing yardage for Wildcat RBs. If so, that's an interesting little wrinkle on Ronnie Brown's future value if 5-8 of his "touches" a game cannot result in negative yardage.ETA - missed the note above re: passing intent. So what constitutes "intent"? A dropback? What about in shotgun formation?

Intent is subjective. The scorer determines whether or not a player was attempting to throw a pass. Has nothing to do with formation or position.

Exactly.In fact, if a QB drops back to pass, then pulls the ball in and takes off running and he gets tackled a yard or two behind the line of scrimmage it will often not be scored a sack. At least, that was the way it used to work. A lot of minor rules have changed the past couple years, and I may have missed an update to this.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

They can probably judge pretty accurately based on offensive linemen crossing the line of scrimmage.

Yeah, the offensive line usually tells the story. On the rare occasion when there is still doubt I think they just go with sack since it's a glory stat the NFL can use to build up their stars.

 

[Jeff Pasquino]

They can probably judge pretty accurately based on offensive linemen crossing the line of scrimmage.

Based on that Denver never tried to run yesterday.