Will the Pats Scandal Tarnish (1 Viewer)

[NJ OAK]

Guess those comparisons to the Cowboys dynasty will cease. At least, I hope so. If true, this explains a LOT. There is no substitute for talent and the disparity between the two clubs is indisputable.

 

[SSOG]

The question is: is it worth cheating and winning the super bowl 2x if all that happens to you is you lose a third round pick a few years later? Probably it is worth it. Hell, everyone has forgotten about that. They don't call for Elway and TD to return those rings. So it should be ok for Belichick to cheat, eh?

The league found that Denver's salary cap violations were not an attempt to cheat or exceed the salary cap, but rather was just the result of a cash-strapped owner hurting for liquid capital after fronting a large portion to fund a new stadium. It's not as if Bowlen was paying money above the cap- he was deferring salaries and paying them back with a fair market interest rate at a later date. In addition, none of this was done with "new money"- it was all done on existing deals with longtime veterans, so there was no chance that new players were enticed to Denver as free agents with the understanding that they would be receiving more money than was being reported against the cap. It's in their official report on the matter. That's why "all that happened" was them losing a 3rd round pick- there was no malicious intent, and no competitive advantage was gained. It's not like Elway was "extra motivated" because instead of getting his salary right away, depositing it, and making interest on it, he got it a year later with a year's worth of interest.I GUARANTEE you that if the league thought that a superbowl winner was operating at an illegal competitive advantage in the game, the penalty would be a hell of a lot steeper than a slap on the wrist.As for the chop blocking- when Denver chop blocks, Denver gets penalized for it, same as every other team in the league. When Denver cut blocks, they don't, because cut-blocking is LEGAL. Every other team does it, and every other team "gets away with it", because the rules explicitly state that it is an allowed practice, just like the QB slide and the forward pass. As for Romo... Romo admitted that he took illegal substances, but claimed he only took them in Oakland, so I don't know why that should cast a pall over the Broncos (although you can feel free to hate him for being a shining example of a failure of humanity). As for greasing up... please. Now you're just talking sour grapes.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I mean, that Oakland team was ticketed for a title that year, they were just cranking and had to put up with that whole tuck crap too, and to think your window as a fan closes because these guys might have been not on the level.

Stop. You are making a lot of sense in this thread, but not with that comment. The Raiders would have had a tough team beating the Steelers the following week, and would have gotten killed by the Rams in the Super Bowl (they didn't have the defense to slow down the Rams offense, like the Pats did, which was the only way to beat the Rams back then).

 

[Aaronl5]

This does tarnish Indy's super bowl win last season.....San Diego was the best team but lost out due to the cheating. Well at least the cheaters did not win.

 

[Loopdog]

I dont see this as any different than figuring out a team's snap count and jumping the snap. I'm SURE every team tries to do that. Is that cheating? All my life I have wondered if teams had people watching the opponent and trying to sneak things from them and now we know that it happens. Big deal. Players steal signs on second base in baseball all the time and relay the pitch that is coming to the guy at the plate. That's considered cool in baseball but this is considered the worst thing ever in football. It's stupid. I'm not even a Patriots fan and I just don't see the big deal. Are you kidding me? How much info could they have possibly gotten? Unless they wired into Pennington's helmet on sunday and heard the plays being called in the huddle, it's not gonna give them that much of an edge. They allegedly stole some defensive signals. So if your defense was getting shredded, you try something else. I don't know, I guess I just don't look at it the same way everyone else does because I really just don't see what all the fuss is about. :whoosh:

 

[TheLastDispatch]

It pretty much has to tarnish it, at least just a little. When someon is found to be cheating (and the video supposedly confirms the accusation) it tarnishes your reputation. Period.

I already thought Belichick was a complete piece of scum, but I really believed in Brady. Now I question that...

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

A lame defense, and no every team does not do it.

:whoosh: :( I'm surprised at the number of people (I'm guessing mostly pats fans?) who seem to think this is acceptable behavior.

 

[SSOG]

Unless they wired into Pennington's helmet on sunday and heard the plays being called in the huddle, it's not gonna give them that much of an edge.

On a related note, the NFL is also investigating some irregularities in the Pats radio signals.http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677

The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.

 

[TinHat]

uI GUARANTEE you that if the league thought that a superbowl winner was operating at an illegal competitive advantage in the game, the penalty would be a hell of a lot steeper than a slap on the wrist.

Yeah, they really came down hard on Camen Policy and the Niners....

 

[djcolts]

I want to see how this plays out after the media cycle of this story dies down before answering this question. I don't know if this is the Duke Lacrosse case or the Michael Vick case - so to speak - so I'm going to wait and see.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

You can't take it away from them, but I think they'll lose the respect they had built up. Personally, I had never seen a luckier, flukier run to a bowl than their first one. I can vividly recall thinking they were an 0-16 team that year when they started 0-2 and looked just amazingly bad doing so. Brady became easy to root for, but the Raiders loss was bogus, you had the Vintieri miracle, and I think the Rams win that bowl 9 times out of 10. Amazing run of luck. But then you start to see the same luck over and over again, and you realize, you can't CONSTANTLY be lucky. We all need breaks on our teams and in life, but you have to be in the situation for luck to works its wonder on you, and for me personally, with their 3rd bowl, I had no choice but to acknowledge the specialness of this team. Today, thats in a bit of a cloud for me.

Excellent post. The thing that's always impressed me the most about NE is their supernatural ability to pull out one clutch win after another. Like you, I've attributed this to outstanding coaching and intanginble grit by the players, but now that there's an alternative explanation I have to wonder if there wasn't more to those SB runs than I thought.

 

[crowe1130]

Unless they wired into Pennington's helmet on sunday and heard the plays being called in the huddle, it's not gonna give them that much of an edge.

On a related note, the NFL is also investigating some irregularities in the Pats radio signals.http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677

The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.

I think the radio frequency issue is a huge deal. I don't believe the Pats were able to listen in to the helmet communications but, if that's true, they deserve as harsh a punishment as the league can dole out. Even Pat fans couldn't defend that as "gamesmanship" or just something "everybody does, but just doesn't get caught."As for the original question, I'd say this could add some tarnish to the team's accomplishments. It probably shouldn't, since there's no evidence of it during those seasons. But with perception being everything, they very well could find themselves asterisked in the average fan's mind. I think it really depends on the strength of the evidence in this case and the severity of the league's response.

 

[Reaper]

You can't take it away from them, but I think they'll lose the respect they had built up. Personally, I had never seen a luckier, flukier run to a bowl than their first one. I can vividly recall thinking they were an 0-16 team that year when they started 0-2 and looked just amazingly bad doing so. Brady became easy to root for, but the Raiders loss was bogus, you had the Vintieri miracle, and I think the Rams win that bowl 9 times out of 10. Amazing run of luck. But then you start to see the same luck over and over again, and you realize, you can't CONSTANTLY be lucky. We all need breaks on our teams and in life, but you have to be in the situation for luck to works its wonder on you, and for me personally, with their 3rd bowl, I had no choice but to acknowledge the specialness of this team. Today, thats in a bit of a cloud for me.

Excellent post. The thing that's always impressed me the most about NE is their supernatural ability to pull out one clutch win after another. Like you, I've attributed this to outstanding coaching and intanginble grit by the players, but now that there's an alternative explanation I have to wonder if there wasn't more to those SB runs than I thought.

The recurring theme from Defensive opponents over the past few years has been "WOW...It seems like they knew exactly when and where we were coming.......... Miraculously, they blocked every blitz"...Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good was the old Pats theme.... But, sometimes it's better to just CHEAT!

 

[Reaper]

Even Pat fans couldn't defend that as "gamesmanship" or just something "everybody does, but just doesn't get caught."

New Here

 

[djcolts]

Oh - and as a Colts fan, I'm not happy about this at all - but not for the reasons Pats fans may think. I actually want to believe that the Pats did everything the right way, and earned those titles, and for one year the Colts overcame that and won it all. I'd much rather have that be the case than have this cloud over the head of the Pats, and therefore this league for the last few years (yeah, and I wonder if the Colts cheat, too. They've made a lot of good 2nd half adjustments over the last couple of years.) .

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

I think their three SBs deserve a *, especially the 2001 one. It certainly explains a lot. This isn't really a surprise. The Pats were the biggest abuser of the salary cap loophole. They push the envelope on everything. Pushing the envelope on stealing signs and hacking wireless signals is par for the course.

 

[thehornet]

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

Do you not at the bare minimum penalize their arrogance/stupidity, in light of last years direct questioning and accustations regarding this practice?

Yes you have to punish them for being caught

i agree they should be punished, but let's not get all intimate with this issue. All NFL teams try to get a leg up on their opponenet. Usually teams will have an individual watching the oppsoing coaches. The pats were stupid and videotaped it.

 

[Shrek]

Perhaps the longer-lasting impact will be not so much to tarnish the three SBs but rather to lessen Belichick's reputation as a genius game-planner. This may not be fair, as who knows if this started only in the past year or so, but the Patriots have invited speculation such as this by their actions.

I don't see how you can separate one from the other. If you believe that BB cheated, then he gave his team an unfair advantage.

 

[Shrek]

They are now the Sammy Sosa of football. As soon as Sammy had that broken bat and they found cork in it, everyone I know thought the same thing. "No wonder he's suddenly hitting more home runs." And it didn't matter that he tried to say he accidentally grabbed a BP bat. We will all think about that corked bat when it comes time to vote him in the Hall.

 

[PMENFAN]

Perhaps the longer-lasting impact will not be so much to tarnish the three SBs but rather to lessen Belichick's reputation as a genius game-planner. This may not be fair, as who knows if this started only in the past year or so. Again, the Patriots have invited speculation such as this by their actions.

Like I say, no one cares that the Broncos cheated the cap when they won two super bowls. In fact, its completely forgotten, even when a new allegation of cheating has arisen with a later champ. Why do you think anyone will care about this stuff ten years from now? I don't think the fans really care about cheating. if they did, they'd have called for much harsher penalties on Denver.

That's why I said that the more lasting impact may be on Belichick's legacy apart from New England's dynasty. I know you're smart enough to understand the difference.

I mean, they obviously put his game play from a superbowl in the HOF, because of his signal stealing, not the brilliance of the gameplan. His reputation as a game planner will be marred none at all.

 

[PMENFAN]

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

A lame defense, and no every team does not do it.

So why would the league communicate to every team in the league about this before this season? Obviously it's widespread. Did Belichick do this to get the issue in the open? Fairly obvious that he'd get caught. Is he willing to give up a draft pick to ensure that everybody is watching this issue to see that it's not happening to the Pats anymore?

 

[LGOA]

I don't know if tarnish is how I feel about it all.I do, however, think it brings Brady into question.How much of his success is because they knew just what plays to call?? Can Brady even QB at an elite level without this type of "help"??I already thought Belichick was a complete piece of scum, but I really believed in Brady. Now I question that...

kind of begs the question, "can brady win the big game...without cheating??"

 

[PMENFAN]

You can't take it away from them, but I think they'll lose the respect they had built up. Personally, I had never seen a luckier, flukier run to a bowl than their first one. I can vividly recall thinking they were an 0-16 team that year when they started 0-2 and looked just amazingly bad doing so. Brady became easy to root for, but the Raiders loss was bogus, you had the Vintieri miracle, and I think the Rams win that bowl 9 times out of 10. Amazing run of luck. But then you start to see the same luck over and over again, and you realize, you can't CONSTANTLY be lucky. We all need breaks on our teams and in life, but you have to be in the situation for luck to works its wonder on you, and for me personally, with their 3rd bowl, I had no choice but to acknowledge the specialness of this team. Today, thats in a bit of a cloud for me.

Excellent post. The thing that's always impressed me the most about NE is their supernatural ability to pull out one clutch win after another. Like you, I've attributed this to outstanding coaching and intanginble grit by the players, but now that there's an alternative explanation I have to wonder if there wasn't more to those SB runs than I thought.

The recurring theme from Defensive opponents over the past few years has been "WOW...It seems like they knew exactly when and where we were coming.......... Miraculously, they blocked every blitz"...Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good was the old Pats theme.... But, sometimes it's better to just CHEAT!

I watched Brady get hammered quite frequently on Blitzes over the past few years. Specifically, the Jets 17-14 win last year, and a 21-0 shutout by Miami last year as well. Buffalo beat him up pretty good game 1 last year. Use your heads. If the other team is stuffing you, and you think they know your plays, aren't you going to switch your signals? These are NFL coaches, not a rec league.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

A lame defense, and no every team does not do it.

So why would the league communicate to every team in the league about this before this season? Obviously it's widespread. Did Belichick do this to get the issue in the open? Fairly obvious that he'd get caught. Is he willing to give up a draft pick to ensure that everybody is watching this issue to see that it's not happening to the Pats anymore?

 

[Kleck.]

Is there any record or win safe from an * these days?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I watched Brady get hammered quite frequently on Blitzes over the past few years. Specifically, the Jets 17-14 win last year, and a 21-0 shutout by Miami last year as well. Buffalo beat him up pretty good game 1 last year.

Wasn't that the one where the Bills led through most of the game, and then New England made some adjustments and pulled out a close one in the end? That's the game you're talking about?

 

[PMENFAN]

I don't know if tarnish is how I feel about it all.I do, however, think it brings Brady into question.How much of his success is because they knew just what plays to call?? Can Brady even QB at an elite level without this type of "help"??I already thought Belichick was a complete piece of scum, but I really believed in Brady. Now I question that...

kind of begs the question, "can brady win the big game...without cheating??"

Maybe in your mind. Three time the team has done it with solid, and at times great, performances from the QB, but he hasn't won one alone, nor without immense pressure from the D.

 

[westbrook36]

They didn't get caught until LAST YEAR against GREEN BAY.

Thats the first that they've ever been accused of cheating. EVER.

If anything, that Superbowl against Carolina was more impressive considering they were going up against the 'roided Panthers that year.

Actually the Eagles accused the Pats of stealing signals in Super Bowl 39. Funny how the Eagles defense was swarming New England the entire first half, getting sacks, forcing fumbles, making plays, and holding them to 7 points at halftime. Then in the second half, all of a sudden the Eagles defense could not stop anything. You think maybe they knew the defensive calls? I do. The Patriots are CHEATERS! I have no respect for them anymore.

 

[JohnnyU]

Is there any record or win safe from an * these days?

Sure there is. It's not that hard to play by the rules in any game.

 

[PMENFAN]

I watched Brady get hammered quite frequently on Blitzes over the past few years. Specifically, the Jets 17-14 win last year, and a 21-0 shutout by Miami last year as well. Buffalo beat him up pretty good game 1 last year.

Wasn't that the one where the Bills led through most of the game, and then New England made some adjustments and pulled out a close one in the end? That's the game you're talking about?

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?gam...6&week=REG1Bills went 10-7-0-0, Pate 7-0-7-5. It appears the Pats were quicte consistent, quarter to quarter, but the Bills came out strong and were shut out. I dont't see a huge comeback at the end. I see a defense that shut the Bills down, and a Pats O that did just enough to pull it out. But, it's defensive signals that are stolen, not offensive, which come in on radio.

 

[JohnnyU]

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

A lame defense, and no every team does not do it.

So why would the league communicate to every team in the league about this before this season? Obviously it's widespread. Did Belichick do this to get the issue in the open? Fairly obvious that he'd get caught. Is he willing to give up a draft pick to ensure that everybody is watching this issue to see that it's not happening to the Pats anymore?

WRONG !! It is common practice in any business to communicate expected behavior to everyone, even when the cause of such communication was by one individual. They may speak to that person privately also, but spreading the word to the entire organization of what is expected isn't uncommon.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Oh - and as a Colts fan, I'm not happy about this at all - but not for the reasons Pats fans may think. I actually want to believe that the Pats did everything the right way, and earned those titles, and for one year the Colts overcame that and won it all. I'd much rather have that be the case than have this cloud over the head of the Pats, and therefore this league for the last few years (yeah, and I wonder if the Colts cheat, too. They've made a lot of good 2nd half adjustments over the last couple of years.) .

Like last year against Denver, where the Broncos defense did a great job of shutting the Colts offense down in the first half, yet the second half was like watching a different game, as the Colts offense moved the ball at will vs. Denver?

 

[phthalatemagic]

Did Belichick do this to get the issue in the open? Fairly obvious that he'd get caught. Is he willing to give up a draft pick to ensure that everybody is watching this issue to see that it's not happening to the Pats anymore?

Seriously?

 

[crowe1130]

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

A lame defense, and no every team does not do it.

So why would the league communicate to every team in the league about this before this season? Obviously it's widespread. Did Belichick do this to get the issue in the open? Fairly obvious that he'd get caught. Is he willing to give up a draft pick to ensure that everybody is watching this issue to see that it's not happening to the Pats anymore?

WRONG !! It is common practice in any business to communicate expected behavior to everyone, even when the cause of such communication was by one individual. They may speak to that person privately also, but spreading the word to the entire organization of what is expected isn't uncommon.

Business/Management 101

 

[PMENFAN]

Based on the afrumnets indicting the Pats, it's plainly obvious that any and all 2nd half turnarounds are the reslut of such videos, and cheating? Or, only the Pats wins?

What is so hilarious is that this tape of Sundays game was taken on the way to the locker room, with the arguments supposedly taking an hour. Yet, somehow the Pats still pounded the Jets in the 2nd half. Hmmmmm

 

[crowe1130]

Did Belichick do this to get the issue in the open? Fairly obvious that he'd get caught. Is he willing to give up a draft pick to ensure that everybody is watching this issue to see that it's not happening to the Pats anymore?

I'm not totally in the Pats-bashing camp here, but this might be the worst/blindest/homerest post I've ever seen in the Shark Pool - and that's saying something!Jeez.

 

[PMENFAN]

News flash: Every team does this. THe pats just more out in the open.

A lame defense, and no every team does not do it.

So why would the league communicate to every team in the league about this before this season? Obviously it's widespread. Did Belichick do this to get the issue in the open? Fairly obvious that he'd get caught. Is he willing to give up a draft pick to ensure that everybody is watching this issue to see that it's not happening to the Pats anymore?

WRONG !! It is common practice in any business to communicate expected behavior to everyone, even when the cause of such communication was by one individual. They may speak to that person privately also, but spreading the word to the entire organization of what is expected isn't uncommon.

Business/Management 101

Wouldn't it also be wise for the business to state the consequences? Other evidenceo f the prevalence is that coaches cover their mouths on playcalls. Why would they, ir nobody is looking? Never mind the ability to read lips from 150'? Because it's prevalent, and the Pats got caught.

 

[PMENFAN]

Did Belichick do this to get the issue in the open? Fairly obvious that he'd get caught. Is he willing to give up a draft pick to ensure that everybody is watching this issue to see that it's not happening to the Pats anymore?

I'm not totally in the Pats-bashing camp here, but this might be the worst/blindest/homerest post I've ever seen in the Shark Pool - and that's saying something!Jeez.

Why else would you in week one, put a camera on the sideline, directed at the other teams coach, after a warning, against your former DC, who knows exactly what you do? He had to know he's get caught. Yet, he still did it. I'm not saying it's what happened, but you know no more about his intent than I. I'm just throwing it out there.

 

[Kleck.]

Is there any record or win safe from an * these days?

Sure there is. It's not that hard to play by the rules in any game.

No it's not, but it is hard to get most fans to agree that one player/team might just be better than another, or that the refs didn't determine the outcome of a game (Pittsburg* - like I saw in one of these tarnished threads ).

 

[Sheriff66]

If they are found guilty ? Absolutely

 

[The Jerk]

Perhaps the longer-lasting impact will be not so much to tarnish the three SBs but rather to lessen Belichick's reputation as a genius game-planner. This may not be fair, as who knows if this started only in the past year or so, but the Patriots have invited speculation such as this by their actions.

I don't see how you can separate one from the other. If you believe that BB cheated, then he gave his team an unfair advantage.

I agree with you, but I believe the perception of the public will be more to focus on Belichick and less to "taint" the Patriots. In part, because it has been three seasons since their last championship, and in part because the signal stealing, if it occurred, doesn't account for all of the team's success.I'm specifically talking about long-term impact, by the way, and a lot depends on what more we learn about these incidents.

 

[The Jerk]

Perhaps the longer-lasting impact will not be so much to tarnish the three SBs but rather to lessen Belichick's reputation as a genius game-planner. This may not be fair, as who knows if this started only in the past year or so. Again, the Patriots have invited speculation such as this by their actions.

Like I say, no one cares that the Broncos cheated the cap when they won two super bowls. In fact, its completely forgotten, even when a new allegation of cheating has arisen with a later champ. Why do you think anyone will care about this stuff ten years from now? I don't think the fans really care about cheating. if they did, they'd have called for much harsher penalties on Denver.

That's why I said that the more lasting impact may be on Belichick's legacy apart from New England's dynasty. I know you're smart enough to understand the difference.

I mean, they obviously put his game play from a superbowl in the HOF, because of his signal stealing, not the brilliance of the gameplan. His reputation as a game planner will be marred none at all.

You can be both a great game planner and a cheater. And only the most partisan NE homer would argue straight-faced that Belichick's great "schemes" should be celebrated the exact same way as before this scandal -- if cheating is proven to have occurred.

 

[GregR_2]

I'd say it tarnishes them. About 3%. Belichick's legacy is tarnished more than the SBs are.

 

[Reaper]

Well The 1st Super bowl already had an asterisk.....

I guess it will now be:

SUPER BOWL XXXVI "CHAMPION" new england patriots* *

 

[PatsFan72]

Will it? Depends on how big the story gets, and if anything is speculated on for those games. With all the Patriots haters out there, and in here, it probably will.

Should it? A little. Even if they actually knew every D call for the second half, they still had to execute and they still had to play good D. But cheating is cheating, even if everyone is doing it.

The 2001 Super Bowl was not won by the Patriots offense, it was won by their defense. We (my beloved Patriots) were not as good moving the ball in the second half.

One aspect of this whole situation that has me much more worried than losing any draft picks, is how this will effect the Patriots ability to control their players, yes, I'm thinking of you Randy Moss. The organization has built up a mystique of being moral and a class act (warranted or not), and has used that to get players to buy into doing things The Patriots Way, how much harder is this going to be when players are thinking that this organization cheats and bends the rules, who are they to tell me not to?

This also shows just how much hatred there is between Mangini and Belichick. I had thought that it quieted down to a healthy competitiveness, but this brings it up to a new level.

As far as the whole thing goes, since they did get the directive before the season started, and it does look like they went ahead and tried to anyway, it shows a level of arrogance that is not acceptable. I can understand if it's one of those things that all teams are breaking the rule on, so it's not really a big deal, but after you get the directive, you need to at least cool it for a little while to see how the rest of the league is going to react. Going right out and trying to do it the first game is classless, and needs to be punished severely. I could see holding them out of next year's draft, and barring the organization from using any type of video, audio, or other surveillance type equipment for a few years.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Listening to NY sportstalk, I'd say their image is tarnished here...

 

[1huskerfan]

This won't even be a footnote in the history books.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

This won't even be a footnote in the history books.

This will be common subject matter when discussing the New Engalnd Patriots until the end of time.

 

[1huskerfan]

This won't even be a footnote in the history books.

This will be common subject matter when discussing the New Engalnd Patriots until the end of time.

Another objective opinion from someone who equates this with paying off refs, poisoning your opponent, and going Jeff Giululi. Keep them coming.

 

[Phurfur]

In the same manner in which Barry Bonds is judged?Just curious how secere people look at this. Will there now be an * by thier SB Wins?

This is not even close. Bonds was not caught doing anything wrong, NE was. This is 100 times worse. As a fan, this does tarnish their 3 SBs and always will in my mind.

 

[phthalatemagic]

In the same manner in which Barry Bonds is judged?Just curious how secere people look at this. Will there now be an * by thier SB Wins?

This is not even close. Bonds was not caught doing anything wrong, NE was. This is 100 times worse. As a fan, this does tarnish their 3 SBs and always will in my mind.

Wow... so you look at Bonds in a darker light than the Patriots? The Patriots may not have even cheated during their Super Bowl run. They are two years removed from that now.