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Willis McGahee released by Broncos (1 Viewer)

also remember all the "experts", beat writers, FF sites, etc called for Hillman to take over once McGahee went down last year. Everyone was wrong.

We'll know more once Moreno is healthy enough for full practices, but at this juncture people are probably being a bit too rosy on Ball's chances, just like they were Hillmans last year.

 
Forget Moreno, people. It's Ball, with Hillman the CoP, and Moreno for scraps / injury insurance.The McGahee release has been just about a given for awhile, and no one s/b surprised. The signs have been there.
Can we forget Moreno even if Ball struggles in pass protection (like many if not most rookies do)? Is it reasonable to assess Ball's blocking ability before the pads go on? I normally agree with most of what you post, CP, but this situation is still pretty far from being clear as of this moment.
 
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Forget Moreno, people. It's Ball, with Hillman the CoP, and Moreno for scraps / injury insurance.The McGahee release has been just about a given for awhile, and no one s/b surprised. The signs have been there.
Can we forget Moreno even if Ball struggles in pass protection (like many if not most rookies do)? Is it reasonable to assess Ball's blocking ability before the pads go on? I normally agree with most of what you post, CP, but this situation is still pretty far from being clear as of this moment.
He actually is pretty good at it in pass protection. Manning has been personally breaking down tape with him and Denver is not moving him along slowly.

 
I'm bumping Moreno. When he came back from injury last year and was given the starting job, he flourished
He flourished with a 3.8 ypc ?
No, his pass pro.
LOFL. Hell of a backtrack.
:confused:
Oh, so when you said Moreno flourished last year you were talking about his pass pro, bro. Got it. Doubt it.
He didn't say that. You're responding to two different people.
 
Forget Moreno, people. It's Ball, with Hillman the CoP, and Moreno for scraps / injury insurance.The McGahee release has been just about a given for awhile, and no one s/b surprised. The signs have been there.
Can we forget Moreno even if Ball struggles in pass protection (like many if not most rookies do)? Is it reasonable to assess Ball's blocking ability before the pads go on? I normally agree with most of what you post, CP, but this situation is still pretty far from being clear as of this moment.
He actually is pretty good at it in pass protection. Manning has been personally breaking down tape with him and Denver is not moving him along slowly.
No reason at all to bring him along slowly in minicamp when there's nothing at stake -- I'm sure Peyton, Fox, Elway, and everyone else will be thrilled if Ball is a prodigy and can pick everything up quickly. If he does, I totally agree that he'll be featured and be a likely great FF RB. I think Moreno sucks as a runner, and Ball (and Hillman) are both better in every way with the ball in their hands.All I'm saying is that it's pretty tough to assess blocking ability in shorts and t-shirts. If Ball's running with the starters in live scrimmages and preseason games with actual defenders who are willing and able to paste Manning, I'll call it a done deal. But not in early June. Fortunately we'll probably have a much better feel for things by the time we start drafting.
 
Interesting that this happened after Moreno started doing more running in practice. May have more to do with that than any love for Ball.
well we pretty much knew the donkeys would not keep both Willis and Knowshon.
Yeah, but I expected the decision to be made later in the summer. The timing of Knowshon starts running -> McGahee gets cut, makes me more interested in Moreno.
I think it'd be more accurate to say that the timing was Denver got a look at Hillman/Ball -> McGahee gets cut. I mean, Denver always knew Moreno was going to be ready, so it's not like they changed their plans when he finally was. The play of Hillman and Ball seems like the new information in the equation.

 
I just figured where Coach Fox is so big on veterans being a big part of the offense they would keep McGahee for just one more year.
The writing was on the wall for McGahee. Too old (only Fred Jackson is older), and too expensive (Denver saves about $2.5 mil in cash and $2 mil in cap space by letting McGahee go).Unlike Bloom, I think this is a great sign for Ball. I expected McGahee to get cut, but if he didn't, he was guaranteed to get the lion's share of the workload. With McGahee out of the way, all Ball has to do is beat out Hillman (who coaching staff has said they like more as a CoP) and Moreno (who coaching staff has never liked and only used when forced to by injuries). His odds of getting 200-250 carries are higher today than they were yesterday.
The increase we are speaking of is negligible. Yesterday everyone knew one of the guys was going to get cut. Yesterday everyone knew it was probably going to be McGahee. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to see here. :tumbleweed: Not sure this was worth starting a new topic for.
Yesterday, I would have said that the odds of McGahee making the roster were 25%, while the odds of Moreno were 75%. That means yesterday I would have estimated that there was a 25% chance Ball had no shot at the starting job, and a 75% chance that he'd be the front runner. Today, there's a 100% chance he's the front runner. I'm not going to move him up six rounds or anything, but I don't know how you can spin this as anything but a good thing for Ball. Despite the predictions, McGahee's release was never guaranteed.

 
I'm bumping Moreno. When he came back from injury last year and was given the starting job, he flourished
He flourished with a 3.8 ypc ?
No, his pass pro.
LOFL. Hell of a backtrack.
:confused:
Oh, so when you said Moreno flourished last year you were talking about his pass pro, bro. Got it. Doubt it.
Try reading again.

 
The only reason Hillman is taking the most 1st team snaps is that McGahee wasn't in camp and Knowshon has been held out of active work right now. When the season opens you can trust that both Fox and Manning (regardless of what they are saying now) will have Knowshon protecting Manning and the ball. In a boom or bust season they aren't starting Hillman who isn't good at passpro, or a rookie like Ball. By end of the season or if Knowshon is hurt then maybe they will be forced to trust Ball. But I sincerely doubt it will happen on game one. Hillman is no more than a cop back. Ball is a rookie. Fox is the coach. Manning is the QB. Thats all you need to know about Denvers backfeild.
Until I see otherwise I think this is the smartest position right now.
agree. there is most likely no fantasy gold in denver's backfield this year, but value may be found.

 
Cecil Lammey@cecillammey1m
Training camp will give us clarity at RB. Pads come on & Ball gets to prove himself, until then it's Hillman w/1s most of the time (75/25)
:rollseyes:

Totally taking what Cecil says with a grain of salt
Hillman has been getting a majority of first-team reps this offseason. It's about a 75/25 split with Montee Ball at this time. go ahead and :rollseyes: over my tweet but I'm not the only one to report that.

Ball has not had any 'wow' carries at minicamp. However, I fully expect that to change when the shoulder pads come on and we get to see contact in training camp and the preseason.

Adam Gase has told me the team will use inside/outside zone for balance in the ground game. Elway said Hillman is change of pace before the draft, Fox told me he feels Hillman is capable of being a full time back at the Combine (these are both quotes from official website).

I like Ball around RB25, largely because of his nose for the end zone. From minicamp observations he's clearly going to be used heavily there. If/when he wins the starting job we're still going to see a RBBC. The team wants 'Thunder and Lightning' with Ball and Hillman as their top two backs.

Training camp will give us more clarity. As of right now Ball is not cutting into Hillman's first-team reps that much.
Just a small comment on this. We got the first report that Moreno was doing more than pass protection drills day before yday, and that was running routes. Then today McGahee is released. We can read into that what we want.

Comment I wish to make was on the distribution of first team reps above: I understand the comments on Moreno above to mean that he has not been cleared to actually take any snaps yet and if that is correct all we know is that McGahee did not get any first team reps before he was cut. We do not know if Moreno would have gotten any snaps had he been cleared.

 
I just figured where Coach Fox is so big on veterans being a big part of the offense they would keep McGahee for just one more year.
The writing was on the wall for McGahee. Too old (only Fred Jackson is older), and too expensive (Denver saves about $2.5 mil in cash and $2 mil in cap space by letting McGahee go).Unlike Bloom, I think this is a great sign for Ball. I expected McGahee to get cut, but if he didn't, he was guaranteed to get the lion's share of the workload. With McGahee out of the way, all Ball has to do is beat out Hillman (who coaching staff has said they like more as a CoP) and Moreno (who coaching staff has never liked and only used when forced to by injuries). His odds of getting 200-250 carries are higher today than they were yesterday.
The increase we are speaking of is negligible. Yesterday everyone knew one of the guys was going to get cut. Yesterday everyone knew it was probably going to be McGahee. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to see here. :tumbleweed: Not sure this was worth starting a new topic for.
Yesterday, I would have said that the odds of McGahee making the roster were 25%, while the odds of Moreno were 75%. That means yesterday I would have estimated that there was a 25% chance Ball had no shot at the starting job, and a 75% chance that he'd be the front runner. Today, there's a 100% chance he's the front runner. I'm not going to move him up six rounds or anything, but I don't know how you can spin this as anything but a good thing for Ball. Despite the predictions, McGahee's release was never guaranteed.
Fair enough. Personally, I think both of the bolded are a bit overstated. If Moreno was cut and McGahee kept, I wouldn't say that Ball had a 0% chance to start. Conversely, I don't care who the media calls the frontrunner while they aren't in pads. When they are in pads, I don't think there's a 100% chance a rookie will be the front runner when Moreno's skill set fits so well. Over 50%? Maybe. But the reality is that nothing has changed in the last 24 hours. If anything, it's gotten worse since I think Moreno was clearly a better fit in this offense than McGahee given the difference in receiving ability between the two backs.

 
I just figured where Coach Fox is so big on veterans being a big part of the offense they would keep McGahee for just one more year.
The writing was on the wall for McGahee. Too old (only Fred Jackson is older), and too expensive (Denver saves about $2.5 mil in cash and $2 mil in cap space by letting McGahee go).Unlike Bloom, I think this is a great sign for Ball. I expected McGahee to get cut, but if he didn't, he was guaranteed to get the lion's share of the workload. With McGahee out of the way, all Ball has to do is beat out Hillman (who coaching staff has said they like more as a CoP) and Moreno (who coaching staff has never liked and only used when forced to by injuries). His odds of getting 200-250 carries are higher today than they were yesterday.
The increase we are speaking of is negligible. Yesterday everyone knew one of the guys was going to get cut. Yesterday everyone knew it was probably going to be McGahee. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing to see here. :tumbleweed: Not sure this was worth starting a new topic for.
Yesterday, I would have said that the odds of McGahee making the roster were 25%, while the odds of Moreno were 75%. That means yesterday I would have estimated that there was a 25% chance Ball had no shot at the starting job, and a 75% chance that he'd be the front runner. Today, there's a 100% chance he's the front runner. I'm not going to move him up six rounds or anything, but I don't know how you can spin this as anything but a good thing for Ball. Despite the predictions, McGahee's release was never guaranteed.
Fair enough. Personally, I think both of the bolded are a bit overstated. If Moreno was cut and McGahee kept, I wouldn't say that Ball had a 0% chance to start. Conversely, I don't care who the media calls the frontrunner while they aren't in pads. When they are in pads, I don't think there's a 100% chance a rookie will be the front runner when Moreno's skill set fits so well. Over 50%? Maybe. But the reality is that nothing has changed in the last 24 hours. If anything, it's gotten worse since I think Moreno was clearly a better fit in this offense than McGahee given the difference in receiving ability between the two backs.
The Denver Broncos strongly disagree. Again, Knowshon Moreno was a game-day inactive eight times last season. He only got the job because McGahee got hurt. Denver was still trying to rush McGahee back into the lineup when they got eliminated (he would have been eligible for return if Denver had made the AFCCG). Denver pretty clearly believed McGahee was the better fit for what they wanted to do on offense.

 
I would love if McGahee ended up in San Diego. That would really bolster the running game and add a legit injury replacement for Matthews.

 
This thread has about as much consensus as the House of Parliament.
Don't worry about figuring out a consensus. Most in this thread are flat out going to be wrong. Most are way too locked into the Fox past, Moreno's numbers last year (generated on volume, not quality), worry about pass protection, and nonsense talk of who is getting what carries in pre-season 'so far.' Ball was drafted to start THIS YEAR and he will do so, and will garner the clear majority of carries. Manning's career window is too short to **** around 'developing' Ball, they will stick him in there and let him figure it out. Hillman has shown to be no more than a CoP and the brass has said so umpteen times if anyone is listening. Moreno they didn't like much, was starting last year after McGahee went down because they really didn't have a decent alternative at workhorse (i.e., Hillman who reportedly got down to about 175 lbs), his knee still isn't great, they still don't him like much, and he'll likely be off the roster in a year.

Ball: Lead back, old McGahee role, clear majority of carries.

Hillman: CoP back

Moreno: Afterthought, insurance, 3rd back.

Draft thinking otherwise at your own peril.

 
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Forget Moreno, people. It's Ball, with Hillman the CoP, and Moreno for scraps / injury insurance.The McGahee release has been just about a given for awhile, and no one s/b surprised. The signs have been there.
Can we forget Moreno even if Ball struggles in pass protection (like many if not most rookies do)? Is it reasonable to assess Ball's blocking ability before the pads go on? I normally agree with most of what you post, CP, but this situation is still pretty far from being clear as of this moment.
He actually is pretty good at it in pass protection. Manning has been personally breaking down tape with him and Denver is not moving him along slowly.
Yes. Important fact many are not grasping. Good post NS. :)

 
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This thread has about as much consensus as the House of Parliament.
Don't worry about figuring out a consensus. Most in this thread are flat out going to be wrong. Most are way too locked into the Fox past, Moreno's numbers last year (generated on volume, not quality), worry about pass protection, and nonsense talk of who is getting what carries in pre-season 'so far.' Ball was drafted to start THIS YEAR and he will do so, and will garner the clear majority of carries. Manning's career window is too short to **** around 'developing' Ball, they will stick him in there and let him figure it out. Hillman has shown to be no more than a CoP and the brass has said so umpteen times if anyone is listening. Moreno they didn't like much, was starting last year after McGahee went down because they really didn't have a decent alternative at workhorse (i.e., Hillman), his knee still isn't great, they still don't him like much, and he'll likely be off the roster in a year.

Ball: Lead back, old McGahee role, clear majority of carries.

Hillman: CoP back

Moreno: Afterthought, insurance, 3rd back.

Draft thinking otherwise at your own peril.
most agree Ball is the favorite, so how will most be wrong when they all agree with you

 
This thread has about as much consensus as the House of Parliament.
Don't worry about figuring out a consensus. Most in this thread are flat out going to be wrong. Most are way too locked into the Fox past, Moreno's numbers last year (generated on volume, not quality), worry about pass protection, and nonsense talk of who is getting what carries in pre-season 'so far.' Ball was drafted to start THIS YEAR and he will do so, and will garner the clear majority of carries. Manning's career window is too short to **** around 'developing' Ball, they will stick him in there and let him figure it out. Hillman has shown to be no more than a CoP and the brass has said so umpteen times if anyone is listening. Moreno they didn't like much, was starting last year after McGahee went down because they really didn't have a decent alternative at workhorse (i.e., Hillman), his knee still isn't great, they still don't him like much, and he'll likely be off the roster in a year. Ball: Lead back, old McGahee role, clear majority of carries. Hillman: CoP back Moreno: Afterthought, insurance, 3rd back. Draft thinking otherwise at your own peril.
most agree Ball is the favorite, so how will most be wrong when they all agree with you
 
The Denver Broncos strongly disagree. Again, Knowshon Moreno was a game-day inactive eight times last season. He only got the job because McGahee got hurt. Denver was still trying to rush McGahee back into the lineup when they got eliminated (he would have been eligible for return if Denver had made the AFCCG). Denver pretty clearly believed McGahee was the better fit for what they wanted to do on offense.
i'm surprised the bolded part hasn't been mentioned more in these denver RB threads. i dont have an opinion who the lead back will be yet, but moreno supporters, thoughts on this?

 
The Denver Broncos strongly disagree. Again, Knowshon Moreno was a game-day inactive eight times last season. He only got the job because McGahee got hurt. Denver was still trying to rush McGahee back into the lineup when they got eliminated (he would have been eligible for return if Denver had made the AFCCG). Denver pretty clearly believed McGahee was the better fit for what they wanted to do on offense.
i'm surprised the bolded part hasn't been mentioned more in these denver RB threads. i dont have an opinion who the lead back will be yet, but moreno supporters, thoughts on this?
I'm positive Ball will be the guy. But Moreno was a completely different RB after he was reactivated. All of a sudden he had vision, patience, and could hold on to the ball. Three things he struggled with to varying degrees prior to that. I think it all came together for him because he probably realized that it was his last chance--at least in Denver. I think he's a different RB than in games 1-2 last year, which were the games he played prior to being deactived.

That said, I think Bruce has the hierarchy pretty much right in his post above.

 
In the end the RB in the Manning offense needs to be an asset in the passing game. Nothing from Hillman and Ball indicate they will be right now.
This. If healthy, IMO Moreno will play more snaps than any other RB on the Broncos this season. That doesn't mean Ball won't lead in carries, but it does mean that Ball won't live up to his draft position. And it also caps Hillman's value this season.

Dynasty is different. It is reasonable to assume Ball will eventually improve enough to get the majority of the snaps. Just not this season.

 
This thread has about as much consensus as the House of Parliament.
Don't worry about figuring out a consensus. Most in this thread are flat out going to be wrong. Most are way too locked into the Fox past, Moreno's numbers last year (generated on volume, not quality), worry about pass protection, and nonsense talk of who is getting what carries in pre-season 'so far.' Ball was drafted to start THIS YEAR and he will do so, and will garner the clear majority of carries. Manning's career window is too short to **** around 'developing' Ball, they will stick him in there and let him figure it out. Hillman has shown to be no more than a CoP and the brass has said so umpteen times if anyone is listening. Moreno they didn't like much, was starting last year after McGahee went down because they really didn't have a decent alternative at workhorse (i.e., Hillman), his knee still isn't great, they still don't him like much, and he'll likely be off the roster in a year.

Ball: Lead back, old McGahee role, clear majority of carries.

Hillman: CoP back

Moreno: Afterthought, insurance, 3rd back.

Draft thinking otherwise at your own peril.
most agree Ball is the favorite, so how will most be wrong when they all agree with you
Post after post early in this thread were talking up Moreno, calling him the value, some were talking up Hillman's usage thus far, etc. See posts 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 19, 27, 28, 30, 32, 33, 35, 46, 47, 51, 52, all mentioning Moreno in a positive way and more or less talking down Ball, suggesting Moreno is a 'value' and Ball is being 'overdrafted' and some suggesting that Hillman will carve out a large role.

I'm saying this will not be the case, that Ball will get a lot closer to the McGahee pct of carries (pre-injury) and that calling Moreno a value anywhere but the very late rounds is a mistake. He's about as valuable as any team's 3rd RB, and I would seldom roster one of those.

And let's add posts 76 and 77 since my earlier post. IMO way too much support for Moreno than is warranted, and he'll mostly rot on your roster unused barring injury.

 
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In the end the RB in the Manning offense needs to be an asset in the passing game. Nothing from Hillman and Ball indicate they will be right now.
This. If healthy, IMO Moreno will play more snaps than any other RB on the Broncos this season. That doesn't mean Ball won't lead in carries, but it does mean that Ball won't live up to his draft position. And it also caps Hillman's value this season.

Dynasty is different. It is reasonable to assume Ball will eventually improve enough to get the majority of the snaps. Just not this season.
fwiw, Ball is staying late to work w/ Manning

And Manning had this to say,

"We're just kind of going through plays, going through games, getting him comfortable hearing audibles at the line of scrimmage. Because we are going to count on him in a big way this year," Manning said. "He's a rookie, but coach (John) Fox isn't going to bring him along slowly."
 
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This thread has about as much consensus as the House of Parliament.
Don't worry about figuring out a consensus. Most in this thread are flat out going to be wrong. Most are way too locked into the Fox past, Moreno's numbers last year (generated on volume, not quality), worry about pass protection, and nonsense talk of who is getting what carries in pre-season 'so far.' Ball was drafted to start THIS YEAR and he will do so, and will garner the clear majority of carries. Manning's career window is too short to **** around 'developing' Ball, they will stick him in there and let him figure it out. Hillman has shown to be no more than a CoP and the brass has said so umpteen times if anyone is listening. Moreno they didn't like much, was starting last year after McGahee went down because they really didn't have a decent alternative at workhorse (i.e., Hillman), his knee still isn't great, they still don't him like much, and he'll likely be off the roster in a year. Ball: Lead back, old McGahee role, clear majority of carries. Hillman: CoP back Moreno: Afterthought, insurance, 3rd back. Draft thinking otherwise at your own peril.
most agree Ball is the favorite, so how will most be wrong when they all agree with you
Post after post early in this thread were talking up Moreno, calling him the value, some were talking up Hillman's usage thus far, etc.
If you did a poll Ball would have 75%+ of the votes.He's widely considered the overwhelming favorite. I personally don't think he's very good but it looks like he'll get the first crack and in that system any RB with at least high school talent could put up big numbers.
 
This thread has about as much consensus as the House of Parliament.
Don't worry about figuring out a consensus. Most in this thread are flat out going to be wrong. Most are way too locked into the Fox past, Moreno's numbers last year (generated on volume, not quality), worry about pass protection, and nonsense talk of who is getting what carries in pre-season 'so far.' Ball was drafted to start THIS YEAR and he will do so, and will garner the clear majority of carries. Manning's career window is too short to **** around 'developing' Ball, they will stick him in there and let him figure it out. Hillman has shown to be no more than a CoP and the brass has said so umpteen times if anyone is listening. Moreno they didn't like much, was starting last year after McGahee went down because they really didn't have a decent alternative at workhorse (i.e., Hillman), his knee still isn't great, they still don't him like much, and he'll likely be off the roster in a year.

Ball: Lead back, old McGahee role, clear majority of carries.

Hillman: CoP back

Moreno: Afterthought, insurance, 3rd back.

Draft thinking otherwise at your own peril.
most agree Ball is the favorite, so how will most be wrong when they all agree with you
Post after post early in this thread were talking up Moreno, calling him the value, some were talking up Hillman's usage thus far, etc. See posts 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 19, 27, 28, 30, 32, 33, 35, 46, 47, 51, 52, all mentioning Moreno in a positive way and more or less talking down Ball, suggesting Moreno is a 'value' and Ball is being 'overdrafted' and some suggesting that Hillman will carve out a large role.

I'm saying this will not be the case, that Ball will get a lot closer to the McGahee pct of carries (pre-injury) and that calling Moreno a value anywhere but the very late rounds is a mistake. He's about as valuable as any team's 3rd RB, and I would seldom roster one of those.

And let's add posts 76 and 77 since my earlier post. IMO way too much support for Moreno than is warranted, and he'll mostly rot on your roster unused barring injury.
I don't blame ya Bruce, many people have been burned by John Fox in the past.

He just doesn't play rookies. Not in his makeup, especially at RB, he has had players more talented than Ball (Jon stew looking at you) and didn't just hand them the job. Think David Wilson last year with Coughlin.

Why would a Tiger suddenly change his stripes??? Ball will be play some, don't get me wrong, he will be drafted before Moreno too, Ill just take the better value later.

 
The Denver Broncos strongly disagree. Again, Knowshon Moreno was a game-day inactive eight times last season. He only got the job because McGahee got hurt. Denver was still trying to rush McGahee back into the lineup when they got eliminated (he would have been eligible for return if Denver had made the AFCCG). Denver pretty clearly believed McGahee was the better fit for what they wanted to do on offense.
i'm surprised the bolded part hasn't been mentioned more in these denver RB threads. i dont have an opinion who the lead back will be yet, but moreno supporters, thoughts on this?
I'm positive Ball will be the guy. But Moreno was a completely different RB after he was reactivated. All of a sudden he had vision, patience, and could hold on to the ball. Three things he struggled with to varying degrees prior to that. I think it all came together for him because he probably realized that it was his last chance--at least in Denver. I think he's a different RB than in games 1-2 last year, which were the games he played prior to being deactived.

That said, I think Bruce has the hierarchy pretty much right in his post above.
I completely agree that that was the best Moreno has looked in Denver. I also completely agree that Moreno's best wasn't good enough for the coaching staff, and Ball is the guy to beat. Maybe if Moreno hadn't performed as well late in the season, we'd be saying goodbye to him and not to McGahee today, but the fact remains that Denver has had many opportunities to give him even the tiniest vote of confidence, and they have declined each and every time.

I don't know if Ball will be as productive as McGahee/Moreno were for Denver last year. I do think Hillman's role will be bigger this year than last. The biggest trump card Ball has in his favor is that Denver specifically brought him in to punch in all those TDs in the red zone, so his touchdowns should be solid even if Hillman vultures him more than anticipated between the 20s.

 
This thread has about as much consensus as the House of Parliament.
Don't worry about figuring out a consensus. Most in this thread are flat out going to be wrong. Most are way too locked into the Fox past, Moreno's numbers last year (generated on volume, not quality), worry about pass protection, and nonsense talk of who is getting what carries in pre-season 'so far.' Ball was drafted to start THIS YEAR and he will do so, and will garner the clear majority of carries. Manning's career window is too short to **** around 'developing' Ball, they will stick him in there and let him figure it out. Hillman has shown to be no more than a CoP and the brass has said so umpteen times if anyone is listening. Moreno they didn't like much, was starting last year after McGahee went down because they really didn't have a decent alternative at workhorse (i.e., Hillman), his knee still isn't great, they still don't him like much, and he'll likely be off the roster in a year.

Ball: Lead back, old McGahee role, clear majority of carries.

Hillman: CoP back

Moreno: Afterthought, insurance, 3rd back.

Draft thinking otherwise at your own peril.
most agree Ball is the favorite, so how will most be wrong when they all agree with you
Post after post early in this thread were talking up Moreno, calling him the value, some were talking up Hillman's usage thus far, etc. See posts 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 19, 27, 28, 30, 32, 33, 35, 46, 47, 51, 52, all mentioning Moreno in a positive way and more or less talking down Ball, suggesting Moreno is a 'value' and Ball is being 'overdrafted' and some suggesting that Hillman will carve out a large role.

I'm saying this will not be the case, that Ball will get a lot closer to the McGahee pct of carries (pre-injury) and that calling Moreno a value anywhere but the very late rounds is a mistake. He's about as valuable as any team's 3rd RB, and I would seldom roster one of those.

And let's add posts 76 and 77 since my earlier post. IMO way too much support for Moreno than is warranted, and he'll mostly rot on your roster unused barring injury.
I don't blame ya Bruce, many people have been burned by John Fox in the past.

He just doesn't play rookies. Not in his makeup, especially at RB, he has had players more talented than Ball (Jon stew looking at you) and didn't just hand them the job. Think David Wilson last year with Coughlin.

Why would a Tiger suddenly change his stripes??? Ball will be play some, don't get me wrong, he will be drafted before Moreno too, Ill just take the better value later.
It's important to look at the context, too. Yes, Fox sat Jonathan Stewart as a rookie, but DeAngelo was playing out of his mind. There's really only been one season in Fox's history where he played a veteran over a young back who was clearly outperforming him. In all other cases, either the veteran was outperforming the young guy, or it was dead even and the tie went to the vet.

 
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and someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he had microfracture surgery on his knee same leg broke his leg on. it was a pretty nasty

injury.

 
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and someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he had microfracture surgery on his knee same leg broke his leg on. it was a pretty nastyinjury.
torn mcl that didn't require surgery. the team had said it expected him to be healthy for the afccg or super bowl had they made it that far

 
Cecil Lammey@cecillammey1m

Training camp will give us clarity at RB. Pads come on & Ball gets to prove himself, until then it's Hillman w/1s most of the time (75/25)
:rollseyes:Totally taking what Cecil says with a grain of salt
That just reinforces even more my expectation that Moreno will be the lead back.
Yeah, let's just dismiss the guy that follows the team for a living.
 
Cecil Lammey@cecillammey1m
Training camp will give us clarity at RB. Pads come on & Ball gets to prove himself, until then it's Hillman w/1s most of the time (75/25)
:rollseyes:

Totally taking what Cecil says with a grain of salt
Hillman has been getting a majority of first-team reps this offseason. It's about a 75/25 split with Montee Ball at this time. go ahead and :rollseyes: over my tweet but I'm not the only one to report that.

Ball has not had any 'wow' carries at minicamp. However, I fully expect that to change when the shoulder pads come on and we get to see contact in training camp and the preseason.

Adam Gase has told me the team will use inside/outside zone for balance in the ground game. Elway said Hillman is change of pace before the draft, Fox told me he feels Hillman is capable of being a full time back at the Combine (these are both quotes from official website).

I like Ball around RB25, largely because of his nose for the end zone. From minicamp observations he's clearly going to be used heavily there. If/when he wins the starting job we're still going to see a RBBC. The team wants 'Thunder and Lightning' with Ball and Hillman as their top two backs.

Training camp will give us more clarity. As of right now Ball is not cutting into Hillman's first-team reps that much.
Just a small comment on this. We got the first report that Moreno was doing more than pass protection drills day before yday, and that was running routes. Then today McGahee is released. We can read into that what we want.

Comment I wish to make was on the distribution of first team reps above: I understand the comments on Moreno above to mean that he has not been cleared to actually take any snaps yet and if that is correct all we know is that McGahee did not get any first team reps before he was cut. We do not know if Moreno would have gotten any snaps had he been cleared.
I'll clear something up here regarding this post....

Moreno was getting snaps. The team is bringing him along slowly. Two weeks ago he was on the field for team drills but only staying in to pass protect. This week he was on the field for team drills and would run a swing route (or other route) out of the backfield. That report from day before yesterday was from me (picked up by KFFL and FBGs news wire).

Moreno has been doing individual drills most of this offseason. This week he actually DID something in team drills. Hope that clears it up!

 
I talked to Tom Nalen and he said this about McGahee release:

The team wanted to get McG on film at practice so that they could release him without an injury settlement. If he is getting reps on the field and suffered no setbacks then they can release him without any compensation for injury. Just his speculation, but it's coming from a Broncos Ring of Fame player...and all around good guy!

 
Quotes from Fox today after practice:

[SIZE=10.5pt]On RB Willis McGahee[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]“As many of you already probably know, we did release [RB] Willis McGahee this morning. It was obviously something very hard for myself and [Running Backs Coach] Eric Studesville. Eric has been with him at a couple of different places. I’d like to thank Willis for everything he did. He did a great job for us, leading rusher. He was one of our first signees when we came in here to get this thing turned around and it’s an unfortunate part about this business. But he did a great job for us.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On the timing of the release[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]“Well, number one, he was coming off a knee. I think, in fairness to him, the things he’s done for us—this gives him a better opportunity to hook on somewhere. It gives us a better opportunity to give some of these young guys more reps. It’s just a conscious decision for us to get younger.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On whether McGahee hurt himself by not being at OTAs[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]“No, that has nothing to do with it. I mean, he was coming off of an injury anyways. It was something that really didn’t have to do with the decision.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On his faith in his running backs[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]“I think anytime you pick your team, or begin to pick your team, you’re showing faith in those people. I thought [RB] Ronnie [Hillman] came on very well last year. I’ve been impressed by [RB] Montee Ball—not that he’s there yet by any stretch. And then we’ve got [RB] Knowshon [Moreno], who is also coming off of an injury, who we feel pretty good about.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On whether McGahee’s knee was a concern going forward[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]“Not really. If there’s something there, [Head Athletic Trainer Steve Antonopulos] sees it. Any injury concerns you, especially when you’re playing football.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On whether McGahee would have fit in a backup role[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]“I wouldn’t want to say anything that would be a detriment to his character. I have great, great respect for Willis McGahee. I think that may have been a hard pill—it is for anybody. You’d have to ask him that. I think that it just came down to us having confidence in the three that I mentioned and there’s still other guys in the mix that we feel good about, as well.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On whether he had to see McGahee play in mini camp before making the decision[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]“I think so. We made that decision and we wanted to see him move around. We hadn’t made a lot of changes. He was coming off of a season-ending injury, so we hadn’t seen him since the end of the season. It was pretty much a natural sequence there.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On the progress of the young running backs (Montee Ball, Ronnie Hillman, Knowshon Moreno) influencing the decision[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]“I mean, that was everything about the decision, those three things.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On LB Joe Mays[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]“He’s worked hard. Richard Smith, our linebackers coach does a superb job and he’s getting back into it. It takes a while to get through an injury and get back to your craft and I think he’s done an excellent job thus far.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]On what the release of McGahee says about plans for the running attack[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]“At the end of the day, running back is a unique position. It’s not always the biggest, strongest and fastest and that’s why you see guys late in the draft have great success. It’s about vision, quick feet, making people miss and it doesn’t really matter if you run a 4.3 40 or a 4.6 40 it’s just having that skill set. I feel good about those three guys and some other guys—[RB] Lance Ball, [RB] Jacob Hester—there’s some other depth there.”[/SIZE]

 
sounds like mcgahees knee is in bad shape. sounds like it might be the in for him.
Link?
local radio reporters saying that. he didn't look good in the mini camp.
what local reporter said that?

what i've seen and read is that he hasn't even really participated in mini-camp despite being healthy. local guys implied it may have been the staff punishing him for missing voluntary OTAs.
I'd like to know this too. We were set about 70 yards away from the field for these three days of minicamp. Usually the team would practice right in front of us. McGahee BARELY got onto the field. I don't see how anyone can say he struggled.

 
This thread has about as much consensus as the House of Parliament.
Don't worry about figuring out a consensus. Most in this thread are flat out going to be wrong. Most are way too locked into the Fox past, Moreno's numbers last year (generated on volume, not quality), worry about pass protection, and nonsense talk of who is getting what carries in pre-season 'so far.' Ball was drafted to start THIS YEAR and he will do so, and will garner the clear majority of carries. Manning's career window is too short to **** around 'developing' Ball, they will stick him in there and let him figure it out. Hillman has shown to be no more than a CoP and the brass has said so umpteen times if anyone is listening. Moreno they didn't like much, was starting last year after McGahee went down because they really didn't have a decent alternative at workhorse (i.e., Hillman), his knee still isn't great, they still don't him like much, and he'll likely be off the roster in a year.

Ball: Lead back, old McGahee role, clear majority of carries.

Hillman: CoP back

Moreno: Afterthought, insurance, 3rd back.

Draft thinking otherwise at your own peril.
most agree Ball is the favorite, so how will most be wrong when they all agree with you
Post after post early in this thread were talking up Moreno, calling him the value, some were talking up Hillman's usage thus far, etc. See posts 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 19, 27, 28, 30, 32, 33, 35, 46, 47, 51, 52, all mentioning Moreno in a positive way and more or less talking down Ball, suggesting Moreno is a 'value' and Ball is being 'overdrafted' and some suggesting that Hillman will carve out a large role.

I'm saying this will not be the case, that Ball will get a lot closer to the McGahee pct of carries (pre-injury) and that calling Moreno a value anywhere but the very late rounds is a mistake. He's about as valuable as any team's 3rd RB, and I would seldom roster one of those.

And let's add posts 76 and 77 since my earlier post. IMO way too much support for Moreno than is warranted, and he'll mostly rot on your roster unused barring injury.
Hey GB. You cited my post 77 here, and followed with "too much support for Moreno... he'll mostly rot on your roster..." Perhaps you should recheck my post. I said nothing about Moreno's fantasy value.

What I said is that IMO he will lead all RBs in *snaps* if healthy. This is because he is the best pass blocker of the RBs, a good receiving back, and can pick up Manning's audibles. All of those things are important in Manning's offense, and it is likely that he is going to be better at all of those things this season than both Ball and Hillman.

IMO Moreno will be used enough to dilute Ball's fantasy value (and Hillman's). That doesn't mean I'm saying Moreno himself will be a good value or useful fantasy asset.

I realize you disagree with this assessment, but I also think you mischaracterized my view.

 
I talked to Tom Nalen and he said this about McGahee release:

The team wanted to get McG on film at practice so that they could release him without an injury settlement. If he is getting reps on the field and suffered no setbacks then they can release him without any compensation for injury. Just his speculation, but it's coming from a Broncos Ring of Fame player...and all around good guy!
Board needs to cut Whammey Lammey some slack. How long has he been covering things in Denver? Everyone had to start somewhere and the board hate is total BS, even if he might be wrong, I would rather have the info first hand and sift thru it. Granted, he does have liquor breath :)

 
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This thread has about as much consensus as the House of Parliament.
Don't worry about figuring out a consensus. Most in this thread are flat out going to be wrong. Most are way too locked into the Fox past, Moreno's numbers last year (generated on volume, not quality), worry about pass protection, and nonsense talk of who is getting what carries in pre-season 'so far.' Ball was drafted to start THIS YEAR and he will do so, and will garner the clear majority of carries. Manning's career window is too short to **** around 'developing' Ball, they will stick him in there and let him figure it out. Hillman has shown to be no more than a CoP and the brass has said so umpteen times if anyone is listening. Moreno they didn't like much, was starting last year after McGahee went down because they really didn't have a decent alternative at workhorse (i.e., Hillman), his knee still isn't great, they still don't him like much, and he'll likely be off the roster in a year.

Ball: Lead back, old McGahee role, clear majority of carries.

Hillman: CoP back

Moreno: Afterthought, insurance, 3rd back.

Draft thinking otherwise at your own peril.
most agree Ball is the favorite, so how will most be wrong when they all agree with you
Post after post early in this thread were talking up Moreno, calling him the value, some were talking up Hillman's usage thus far, etc. See posts 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 19, 27, 28, 30, 32, 33, 35, 46, 47, 51, 52, all mentioning Moreno in a positive way and more or less talking down Ball, suggesting Moreno is a 'value' and Ball is being 'overdrafted' and some suggesting that Hillman will carve out a large role.

I'm saying this will not be the case, that Ball will get a lot closer to the McGahee pct of carries (pre-injury) and that calling Moreno a value anywhere but the very late rounds is a mistake. He's about as valuable as any team's 3rd RB, and I would seldom roster one of those.

And let's add posts 76 and 77 since my earlier post. IMO way too much support for Moreno than is warranted, and he'll mostly rot on your roster unused barring injury.
Hey GB. You cited my post 77 here, and followed with "too much support for Moreno... he'll mostly rot on your roster..." Perhaps you should recheck my post. I said nothing about Moreno's fantasy value.

What I said is that IMO he will lead all RBs in *snaps* if healthy. This is because he is the best pass blocker of the RBs, a good receiving back, and can pick up Manning's audibles. All of those things are important in Manning's offense, and it is likely that he is going to be better at all of those things this season than both Ball and Hillman.

IMO Moreno will be used enough to dilute Ball's fantasy value (and Hillman's). That doesn't mean I'm saying Moreno himself will be a good value or useful fantasy asset.

I realize you disagree with this assessment, but I also think you mischaracterized my view.
Thanks, gotcha. I was scrolling pretty quickly through to number the "Moreno" posts and it looks like I didn't take enough care with 76 and 77, a first pass for those two at the time but still just scrolling through quickly. We do disagree on how much Moreno will see the field, but I now am clear on your point.

I owe you an email tonight too. I need to get to that now! :)

 
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I talked to Tom Nalen and he said this about McGahee release:

The team wanted to get McG on film at practice so that they could release him without an injury settlement. If he is getting reps on the field and suffered no setbacks then they can release him without any compensation for injury. Just his speculation, but it's coming from a Broncos Ring of Fame player...and all around good guy!
Board needs to cut Whammey Lammey some slack. How long has he been covering things in Denver? Everyone had to start somewhere and the board hate is total BS, even if he might be wrong, I would rather have the info first hand and sift thru it. Granted, he does have liquor breath :)
:banned:

 
I talked to Tom Nalen and he said this about McGahee release: The team wanted to get McG on film at practice so that they could release him without an injury settlement. If he is getting reps on the field and suffered no setbacks then they can release him without any compensation for injury. Just his speculation, but it's coming from a Broncos Ring of Fame player...and all around good guy!
This sounds right to me.
 
I'm someone who thought Moreno had a slight chance to be the lead guy. After reading the coaches comments it does seem Moreno is almost an afterthought when he talks about the rb's.

Looks like unless Ball completely bombs he's got the lead role with hillman playing the COP role.

I know many have already been pounding the table with that conclusion, it just took me a little longer to get on board.

Looks like Ball has a decent shot to be a solid RB2 with RB1 upside, even as a sceptic of his talent I'm coming around to being sold on him for FF purposes.

 

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