Oh I agree, but I meant short term like this season's fantasy impact for Mayfield/Landry/Njoku/Chubb. It could be bad for those guys if this new OC's lack of experience shines through.
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With Cleveland firing Jackson and Haley today, what's your impression? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
daveR
Footballguy
For "positive" voting Clevelanders, please indicate how many tickets you bought today (Tuesday). To me, this would be a definitive indicator of whether or not you believe this move was indeed positive. I suspect, as has happened over & over, you're just happy to see the coach fired without acknowledgement that it sets the franchise back again. Instability NEVER wins.
ffweasel
Weasel Power
Lionsfan011
Footballguy
Voted negative for Cleveland based on the firing being today and not in the previous off-season or this coming off-season mostly because it could affect Mayfield in the long run. He should've been fired last off-season. Firing him mid-season can only stunt Mayfield's growth as others mentioned. If they didn't want to fire him in the off-season they should've let him play out this season and then let him go once the season was over. Now Mayfield gets to try to learn Hue's system, the interim coach's system and whoever the new coach's system is in a span of 12-15 months. Young QB's need continuity. Browns would've been best off firing Hue the off-season and letting Mayfield learn from only the new coach's system.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
They had no choice but to make a change. They weren’t winning anything anytime soon with these set of coaches. Perhaps now they may achieve some stability going forward.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Dave's one of about 4 people in the entire region that was not in favor of removing the cancer. Head's buried in the sand screaming for continuity without regard for that continuity being the cancer that's being spread throughout the organization. Does this team need continuity if they're ever going to get on the right course? Yep. Was the cancer the one to lead that change? An emphatic no. And I don't blame anyone from outside NE Ohio for not paying detailed attention to what's been going on here, but put the record aside - he has repeatedly demonstrated everything that one does not desire in a leader of their organization. The buck stops anywhere but here. He spent more time and energy concocting plots to shift blame on anyone but him than he did on actually coaching this team. It's unfortunate we wasted this season on this loser, but at least it went so badly so quickly that he had to be forced out before his disease spread any further within that building.
I have no expectations on what's going to happen the rest of this season, but now there is hope for the arrow to be pointing upwards towards the end of it. Before it was only going to continue to spiral out-of-control down the tubes. In a backwards sorta way I'm kinda happy the cancer ended up paired with Haley. I never thought we'd one-up the theatrics of October 2017, but that lethal combination led to an even more tumultuous October 2018. And forced Jimmy to get rid of him 2 months earlier than expected. And for someone as head strong as Baker, long term - enduring this may end up being a good thing.
Peak
Footballguy
I voted positive and I'd do it 100x more every time it's asked. As for buying tickets, your logic is flawed, or do you believe all of the CLE fans live within distance to go to a game on a regular basis? CLE has a strong fanbase across the nation, and guaranteed majority of fans don't buy tickets. So whether or not ticket sales increase or decrease with this news is irrelevant. For your sample demographic, I live in Ohio with 3 kids who are active in sports on the weekends. Did I buy tickets? Nope. Did I buy tickets before "The Great Pumpkin Purge of 2018"? Nope. Will I buy tickets now that Hue is gone? Not likely, but if the opportunity arises maybe. With that said, I do spend my money on ways of watching the Browns play week in and week out, which a multitude of fans do each week.
I would bet that those who live in CLE will continue to buy tickets and go to the games to support their team. Many fans do think this purge needed to happen. Many of the local CLE media believe this purge needed to happen. As @MAC_32 noted, ccrying for continuity without recognizing that the very problem in the organization are the people you are endorsing to stick around is an issue. If you fully believe that those of us on this board are in the wrong, take it to the outside world and see what you find. I fully believe that CLE fans want continuity, but not at the expense of the team and their potential. CLE needs to find the right leaders for that locker room first. Once that is done, then they can worry about continuity. CLE is 2/3rds of the way there. They have a more than competent GM and an inspiring QB who exudes confidence and is a true leader. Now find that HC that compliments them both. With those 3 pieces in place, I'll jump right onto the continuity bandwagon.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I would have fired Hue before the season - and I totally understand the need for him to go but I don't see how firing a HC and OC midseason is good for the development of a rookie QB.
As a Jets fan that wants to see Bowles and Bates gone, I would be pretty upset of they did something as stupid as doing it now, instead of in January.
As a Jets fan that wants to see Bowles and Bates gone, I would be pretty upset of they did something as stupid as doing it now, instead of in January.
Peak
Footballguy
Imagine your parents were getting divorced. Each one talking bad about the other, trying to get you to take sides. It's a constant battle that no one ever wins, but the one in the middle always loses. The one parent won't do anything just to spite the other parent. They keep treading out the same useless crap over and over. The kid in the middle is caught up in it all. How is that kid to grow in that environment? How can you expect that kid to grow when all he's used for is leverage against the other person? Why would you want to leave that kid in that type of environment? How is that good for him/her?
In my eyes, this is a similar situation and the only way to help that kid grow and mature is to remove him from that situation. This solution, this timing was the right way to do it. If it's delayed any longer, then that will only keep Baker from maturing and moving forward. Rip off the bandaid, suck it up and move forward.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
We don't know exactly what happened, but even if what you say is 100% accurate I stand by what I said (and makes it even dumber that Hue started the season).
This is a bad thing for a rookie QB to deal with and there's no way to spin it otherwise.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
I’m not sure I agree with that. This could be the act that makes this team Mayfield’s, no matter who the coach is. In the short term he may struggle, but I think he’s capable of making this team his, and he may benefit from greater input on the offensive side. Something he has never done is learn how to lose gracefully and accepting a negative climate of culture. Jackson et al may have been teaching him just that.
It will be interesting to watch how Mayfield responds.
ETA: interesting article on coaches clashing over Mayfield
http://larrybrownsports.com/football/hue-jackson-todd-haley-clashed-over-baker-mayfield/470953
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
To be fair, I doubt it seriously impacts his career long term one way or the other - I just don't see how anyone can say it's a good thing, because it's not (being a rookie QB is hard enough). If I was a fan of the Browns I would have certainly preferred for them to wait - or better yet just let one of them go for now.
Good discussion here between you and @Dr. Octopus I think I lean way more toward this angle. I think this can be a net positive for Mayfield. We'll see of course but if I'm a Browns fan, I'm a fan of this move and doing it now. i think it may work out that they've played this perfectly in they will get a better coach now with Mayfield than they would have before the draft when the QB question was way less settled.
The pitch Jimmy Haslam and John Dorsey can make is "here's your chance to be the Rams East".
If I'm a Browns fan, I like this a lot.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Ideally they should have started this year with a new coaching staff to break in along with their new QB. Fresh start for everyone.
Hue never should have had the gig after his 0-for-2017.
but I agree that since they brought him back for 2018 they coulda kept him through season’s end. Probably woulda been their best path to a higher draft pick, too.
MAC_32
Footballguy
The cancer starting the season is a completely different issue. I wish you good luck finding anyone that thinks both that and getting rid of him now are good things. What @Peak described between him and Haley is not a one-time thing. It's literally been every single incident since he got here.
MAC_32
Footballguy
This team is not playing for higher draft picks. The optimal path is to try and get the arrow to start pointing up and finish with 5 or 6 wins rather than continuing down the drain and finish with 3-4. This is over. It was over before it started. Dorsey unfortunately needed ammo to get Jimmy to pull the trigger though. These 8 weeks are not a new thing for the cancer. It's the same act he's been pulling since he got here. Developing Baker was never a priority for the cancer. Doing whatever was necessary for the cancer to survive to see the next day is all the cancer cared about. The team, and Baker, was never going to get better as long as he was here. It's going to take some time to heal, but now that it's been removed the rehab process can begin.Ideally they should have started this year with a new coaching staff to break in along with their new QB. Fresh start for everyone.
Hue never should have had the gig after his 0-for-2017.
but I agree that since they brought him back for 2018 they coulda kept him through season’s end. Probably woulda been their best path to a higher draft pick, too.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Doc is one of the finest posters on this board. He carries me in a lot of these discussions.
Peak
Footballguy
It's been pretty well documented since Haley was hired that there would be and has been tension between Jackson and Haley. Let's not forget, Haley was forced upon Jackson as an OC. What we are hearing now is that Haley was given autonomy to run the offense how he wanted, and that Hue would leave him to it. These two were like Oil and Water. They were never going to mix. It finally hit mainstream media with the TB loss. But most Browns fans that have paid attention have seen/listened to this for awhile now. The removal of both of them gets the "noise" out of Baker's ear and lets him focus on the game in front of him. Does it set him back? Not really. Kitchens has been with Haley for a long time and knows this offense inside and out. I don't see a lot of adjustments needed from a coaching perspective. I only hope they now begin to tailor it to Baker's skillset and let him relax and play his game.
Completely agree with @Bronco Billy and his statements above, specifically the one below. Baker needs to take this as a learning opportunity. If we've learned anything from his time in college and through the draft process, it's that Baker doesn't step away from a challenge. He takes it head on and perseveres. The coaching change is just another stepping stone for him.
Lastly.....
I am a Browns fan and I would've preferred, as most will tell you, they handled this last off-season. But they didn't, for whatever reason they had, they kept Hue around. I believe the notion that it was due to Haslam not wanting to earn a negative reputation and trying to force consistency into the organization. Unfortunately, he got too close to Hue and it went from being about business to being personal. I'm only glad Dorsey was able to help bring the issue to light and they took action. If the Browns would have waited until the bye-week, or even after the season, I think that would've caused more damage to the rookie QB, if not the entire team in general.
To echo @MAC_32, this team isn't playing for the "optimal draft pick" this year. They want to prove they aren't the laughingstock everyone perceives them to be. They are taking action on their faults/issues, and working towards changing the narrative. Many out there don't see it that way, and I can understand that perspective. The Browns have been a joke since they returned. It's hard to shake that perception. But I firmly believe they are taking the right steps in doing so by getting rid of the infighting and egos of Hue and Haley. I also think they'll be a little active at the trade deadline, both as sellers and buyers. Not flashy deals, but some that are long-term and add value. The right kind of deals to help change the narrative.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
But that could have happened in the offseason as well.
I think he Browns run the risk (albeit a remote one) that learning a new system in the middle of the season hampers Mayfield and perhaps potential candidates get a little scared off that he may be a bust that they will be anchored to.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I would like to second this. Always great for a thoughtful discussion, and always respectful in disagreement.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I was going to put "new system" in quotes because yes I know the new OC will stick with Haley's terminology etc. - but he'll be hearing a new voice and some new wrinkles.
Listen, I don't think I know more than the people here who follow the team so I'm willing to defer on this a bit - I just see this as more dysfunction in Cleveland as an outsider and I don't think that's an ideal breeding ground for a rookie QB. In the long run the team is likely better off however because Hue was a joke. However, I'm not sure Gregg Williams was the right call but at least that can be rectified after the season.
MAC_32
Footballguy
I'm not going to jump to conclusions until we actually see a game script but if Kitchens comes with even just a C game plan and a willingness to adjust as the game progresses then I imagine that'll be a welcomed development for the rook. No one will ever say it, but the body language has been loud and clear this month - we cannot win doing what we are doing. And it was getting worse each week.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Great stat from ESPN: In order to match Hue Jackson's career winning percentage of .205, Bill Belichick would have to lose his next 867 games -- 54 seasons worth.
Village Idiot
Pokerguy
Positive for the city and team.
If only we could get Jimmy Haslam to fire himself, I'd feel better.
Or, if Jimmy can just let Dorsey do his thing and stay out of making any decisions related to who to hire to Coach or who to draft.
I'd be happy with that too.
If only we could get Jimmy Haslam to fire himself, I'd feel better.
Or, if Jimmy can just let Dorsey do his thing and stay out of making any decisions related to who to hire to Coach or who to draft.
I'd be happy with that too.
Peak
Footballguy
I posted a couple of links in the Browns thread to help provide some details as to why the Hue Jackson/Todd Haley were done.
Some of the conversation in this thread brought me to post these articles for clarification. Reading some of the comments here, I noticed that some people don't know the story, or think its a knee jerk reaction. Others just repeat the "Browns will be Browns" refrain. For those following, we know this relationship couldn't continue to exist. For those not following and just saying "Cleveland will be Cleveland", please take some time and get up to speed.
I'm sure there are more out there, but hopefully you can see how the personality conflicts were called out when Haley was hired and followed through until yesterday. There are other sources and comments that add to the narrative, but I think these stand out as pretty good representations of the "infighting"
Some of the conversation in this thread brought me to post these articles for clarification. Reading some of the comments here, I noticed that some people don't know the story, or think its a knee jerk reaction. Others just repeat the "Browns will be Browns" refrain. For those following, we know this relationship couldn't continue to exist. For those not following and just saying "Cleveland will be Cleveland", please take some time and get up to speed.
I'm sure there are more out there, but hopefully you can see how the personality conflicts were called out when Haley was hired and followed through until yesterday. There are other sources and comments that add to the narrative, but I think these stand out as pretty good representations of the "infighting"
beer 30
Footballguy
Same here, I don't expect anything new unless Baker comes up with it this week but I do expect adjustments like picking up the backside rush LB that seemed to elude Haley last week. As MAC said, if they just do that we will be worlds better than what you've seen. Baker has proven he can move in a collapsing pocket and make the pinpoint throws you need to in the NFL. When you have a T.J. Watt coming unblocked every time you drop back there is no QB in the league that will do well in that scenario. The kid is light years better than I thought he would be but you gotta give him a little time in the pocket.
Great stat from who's perspective?
Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
daveR
Footballguy
First off, I specifically asked Clevelanders (ie. Cleveland residents) if they felt this was a POSITIVE move that would inspire them to buy tickets. My point is that it simply creates chaos within the coaching staff & doesn't add anything. I know you hate Hue & therefore his departure is "positive" to you, but frankly it isn't. "Positive" means adding something of value. We have proven over the last 30 years that removing coaches only sets you back. Can you show me one instance where the Browns improved after sacking a coach? You have about 20 to choose from...
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Does anyone have any thoughts on the fantasy impact for the offensive players? I'm curious if the new OC will be a positive for Mayfield, Landry, Chubb & Njoku. If so, who benefits most?
daveR
Footballguy
I understand that you had no hope, but now, though no reason exists, you are hopeful that you may have reason to hope some nebulous time in the future. I get it. Seriously.
amnesiac
beer is good
nebulous?
this has been an historically bad time in franchise history.
it is literally impossible for things to get worse.
i’m not sure you get it. but you will.
Peak
Footballguy
First off, I know who you asked for and I openly admitted my point of view. Secondly, you trying to limit your focus group to only a small portion of fans will devalue the point you're trying to make. Thirdly, there are many "Clevelanders" who have been openly lamenting just how positive this move was for the organization. All you have to do is follow the media and social media postings immediately after the PITT game through yesterday. The move was viewed as being entirely positive from many different outlets.
Lastly, I get it that you don't see this as positive. But I also don't think you are looking at the whole of the problem, but focusing on the small portion of "continuity". Retaining a coach who has been labelled a "cancer" to the team by many associated with the team is not a good thing. You don't hold on to a bad teammate because you think continuity is better than change. In this case, it was a Positive addition to the team by subtracting the biggest issues threatening the team. The egos and infighting between Haley and Hue were dragging everyone down, and Mayfield was caught in the middle. Look at how Mayfield entered the game vs the Jets through Sunday's game. You can see his attitude, demeanor, and play regress over those weeks. There was no spark on Sunday. In fact, after the first series, the whole team played flat. Why do you think that was? If it wasn't the issues between Hue and Haley weighing on this team, what was it? The offense was surely well rested as they were hardly ever on the field.
IMO, what the Browns have proven since 1999 is that having a bad organizational leadership structure is dangerous and will set you back. You will need to go back to Al Lerner to find a time where the Browns had a true leadership structure. Since Randy took over, we've had a HC tried to be a GM, many GMs that were handcuffed to an existing HC that the owner liked/wanted. We have not had a situation (until now) where the GM gets to actually interview and hire the HC that they want - one that fits their vision of the organization they are going to build. Poor leadership, from the Top Down, will kill an organization and stunt their growth. The Browns are a true case study in this negative practice. We are at a turning point now. Haslam needs to stand back and let Dorsey do his job, and all signs are pointing in that direction. If Haslam didn't believe that Hue needed to go, he would still be here. Dorsey and others finally opened Haslam's eyes to the problems within the organization. That was step one. Step two will be laying a true leadership foundation. It's a process, but one that is nearly 2 decades too late for the Browns.
I'll challenge you one better, show me where the leadership structure over the last 20 years led to any coach being successful? When have the Browns every had a foundation to make any coach successful? Why have the Browns needed to fire so many coaches over the years? The fans are a fickle group to please, and that won't happen until the wins starting coming. Unfortunately we experienced a win early this year and everyone saw the potential. When the coaches can't work together to get that potential on the field, someone has to pay for it. In these circumstances, it will be the coaches. And there is no way a coach who is 3-35-1 over 2.5 seasons is going to last. Hue is statistically the worst non-Owner/HC to have every coached in the NFL. EVER. The writing was on the wall.
Peak
Footballguy
One last question, what will you have to say if the Browns win 3 more games this year? Will you have hope? Will you be optimistic? Or are you of the group that have started to think they are "tanking"? If you do think they've thrown in the towel and are "tanking", what will it take for you to say you were wrong? 1 win? 2 wins?
beer 30
Footballguy
It's simply addition by subtraction in this case @daveR. If you can't see that then we agree to disagree and move on. I think you'll see it but if it doesn't work out and you're right I'll happily admit it and give you credit. I was in Hue's corner for a long time but he wore out his welcome and ultimately, did nothing to advance the team. I get he had #### to deal with during the 1-31 years but he's got talent on the team this year and his focus is a beef with the OC. Hue was not going to take this team to the next level.
daveR
Footballguy
No matter who the coach is, they should win a couple more games. Before the season began, I said 6-10 and indicated that this was optimistic. I don't think they're tanking, but neither do I think anything that improves their chances has occurred. If there is a dramatic turnaround, I think it will be evident. I will be overjoyed to eat crow at that point!
daveR
Footballguy
Nebulous means uncertain, unspecific. Do you have a specific time in mind when you expect the team to be good? Do you expect a positive record the rest of this year?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
If you are referring to me - I never said this, but the whole "saga" does reinforce the perception of dysfunction in Cleveland.
Perhaps making a move to correct it right away can be seen as a positive - but the team let it happen from the beginning by bringing Hue back and straddling him with an OC he didn't want. My only comment is you can't bring in a rookie QB and subject him to chaos, when his first season is already chaotic enough. But like I said it's unlikely it will have a long term affect. Mayfield seems mentally strong enough to deal with it and that's all that really matters.
daveR
Footballguy
Does the team's record more reflect the coach or the historically inept drafts? The 0-16 team was so bad that only 16 players remain from that roster.
amnesiac
beer is good
yes, next year i expect this team to have a better record than .313
no, i don’t expect them to be over .500 for the remainder of the year, if i’m understanding your question.
Peak
Footballguy
Not directed at you at all. Just in general. I've read posts here and in other places where the comment is a quick "Browns gotta Browns" and it gets a little annoying to me. It's the easy retort and I'd rather have a better discussion than just a diss and run off into the innerwebs.
I have no problem with you Doc. You always bring some discussion/thoughts to the table, and it's very much appreciated.
Peak
Footballguy
Rhetorical question, and I know that you already know this to be true. It's a combination of both, especially for CLE. To answer my own question from above, below is what CLE has had to work with since the return:
Name Term[N 2] G W L T W% Notes GM Owners
Chris Palmer 1999–2000 32 5 27 0 0.156 Dwight Clark Al Lerner
Butch Davis 2001–2004 58 24 34 0 0.414 Hired by Owner to be HC/GM Butch Davis (2002) Al Lerner, Randy Lerner (2002)
Terry Robiskie 2004 6 1 5 0 0.167 Interim Coach after Butch quit No GM Randy Lerner
Romeo Crennel 2005–2008 64 24 40 0 0.375 Selected by Owner Phil Savage (2005) Randy Lerner
Eric Mangini 2009–2010 32 10 22 0 0.313 Hired by Owner, GM was picked by HC George Kokinis (2009), Tom Heckert (2010) Randy Lerner
Pat Shurmur 2011–2012 32 9 23 0 0.281 Hired by President of Football Ops (Holmgren) Tom Heckert Randy Lerner, Jimmy Haslam (2012)
Rob Chudzinski 2013 16 4 12 0 0.25 Hired by President of Football Ops (Banner) Michael Lombardi Jimmy Haslam
Mike Pettine 2014–2015 32 10 22 0 0.313 Forced onto Farmer by Owner Ray Farmer Jimmy Haslam
Hue Jackson 2016–2018 35 3 36 1 0.088 Hue forced onto both GMs Sashi Brown(2016), John Dorsey Jimmy Haslam
Since the return, the Browns have had a hodge podge of GM and HC combinations. Most of which were selected by the Owner or a "President of Football Operations". Some of those HCs were selected before the GM was in place. Crennell, Mangini, and Hue were all "Hot NFL HC Candidates" at that time and the owners jumped to bring them in before getting the rest of the FO in place. Over this time we have seen GMs Savage, Farmer, and Sashi all leave due to "infighting" with the HC at the time. (I want to through Heckert in there, but that whole Holmgren, Heckert, Banner, Lombardi crap all mixes together in my head.) The Browns have also had many first time HCs (Chud, Davis, Shurmur, Pettine, Hue) who had to learn on the job. Pair them with first time GMs (Savage, Kokinis, Farmer, Sashi) and you have a recipe for disaster.
So to get back to your original question, does the team's record reflect the coaching or the inept drafts - my answer is Yes. Look at the list of disastrous combinations and egos and turmoil this team has put up with for the last 20 years. No where in there did this team have people qualified to draft and net positive results, nor the ability to coach them up and get them functioning as a solid unit.
Aside from Dorsey, the next solid drafter we had was Heckert - and that's not saying much. But at least some of his players are still in the league.
Aside from Butch, the HCs haven't really brought a winning record to CLE in their tenure.
Besides the mass amount of data above, we also know that every new HC and/or GM weeds out players from the last regime and inserts their own brand via the next draft and FA period. So as often as the HC and FO has turned over, so have the players. Very few lasted for a long period of time - save Joe Thomas and Phil Dawson.
Aznflyer14
Footballguy
Agreed... Even though I'm not Browns fan, I still cringed on lack of coaching at Browns especially when they have so much potential and upside with their young offensive players. They just need to get the right coach to bring all the talent together to be offensive force for years to come.
I think this is it.
Their coach couldn't recall the plays before halftime of the game when asked after the game.
Jimmy Haslam looks at that and sees his competitions coach can recall plays from 5 years ago. Enough was enough.
At some point, continuing on was showing you didn't even care.
I think Haslam cares A LOT.
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
On a side note, how great is it to see this kind of discussion occurring about CLE? This is a team lurking on the verge of a serious rise, IMO. If they can only get the logistics right and the right coaches in place...
Agreed. I think people are underestimating how big Baker Mayfield's play is. For the first time in a long while, they have an answer to "Do we have a QB we can win with?"
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