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With the first pick of the 2010 NFL Draft the Cleveland Browns select (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter MAC_32
- Start date
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I don't know what you expect Mangini to do with the "talent" he has to work with.
David Lee Roethlisberger
Footballguy
The last thing Cleveland needs to do is spend another 1st round pick on a quarterback that needs time to develop. Fix the rest of your team first, then worry about finding a QB.
ChargersOH
Footballguy
I keep reading that Cowher is their planned coach of pursuit, and Mangini is merely warming the seat?I think Mangini should move Cribbs to QB. He can't do any worse than Quinn or Anderson.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Not punt on 4th and 1 at midfield when you're down 13 in the 1st halfNot call wildcat plays consecutively the rare time we get inside the 5Motivate the defensive players so they don't give up halfway through the 3rd quarter...or in the case of this week, before the game even startedBench Braylon when he quits on routes that cause INT'sSelect a QB and go with itHire an OC that can create a competent gameplanNot fine players $1700 for not paying for a bottle of waterNot sign veteran right tackles who have shown for years they should not be NFL startersGive the rookies you drafted playing time when it is obvious the team is going to suck with the vets you selectedNot kick meaningless field goals when you're down 27 points and haven't scored a meaningful TD since November of last yearRush more than 3 guys on 3rd and long when your defense has repeatedly been beaten on 3rd and long when only rushing 3 for the first two weeksWe're not even to October, I'm sure the laundry list will get longer...
I am a Mangini apologist, but unless he is canned, why on earth would he take someone that would take a couple of years to show divedends when he could get an impact player to show progress now...not that it is solely HIS decision to make a draft pick, but still?
Fallerjw
Footballguy
And who would be an impact player now?
kaa
Footballguy
If I'm the Browns I use 2009 as a development year for Brady Quinn. At the end of the season, if they have the #1 pick and Sam Bradford is there, you then make a decision based on what you have. Is Quinn the guy? Trade down. If not, give serious consideration to selecting Bradford. The offensive line as it is should be closer to being a good one than not. Fix the right side and a young QB should have a good situation to grow into.
MAC_32
Footballguy
We already have Colt McCoy, his name is Brady Quinn.
kaa
Footballguy
From the way he is playing, Brady Quinn seems to suffer a bit from lack of confidence. If that is the case, then benching him like that will probably set him back in his development quite a bit.
Mr. Retukes
Footballguy
Spending a top-5 pick on a QB is one of the biggest risks in the entire NFL. For every Matt Ryan, there are 2 Ryan Leafs. And usually when a top-5 QB fails, he fails MISERABLY. It's boom or bust. There's no in-between. If a QB fails as a starter, then he's useless to the team.
kaa
Footballguy
On the other hand, having a high first round pick bust doesn't doom an NFL franchise. It takes years of consistently poor drafting in rounds 1 thru 7 to do that.Spending a top-5 pick on a QB is one of the biggest risks in the entire NFL. For every Matt Ryan, there are 2 Ryan Leafs. And usually when a top-5 QB fails, he fails MISERABLY. It's boom or bust. There's no in-between. If a QB fails as a starter, then he's useless to the team.
Fallerjw
Footballguy
I think it often has more to do with the team around them than the actual QB. In this case, it would probably be a disaster for the Browns to draft a QB with the first overalll pick that they are earning right now.
Chaka
Footballguy
Brady Quinn was never the type of QB that McCoy is.Quinn had one good season on a horribly overrated Notre Dame team.
Deepster
Footballguy
I don't know. What has Rex Ryan done with Mangini's old talent?
Chaka
Footballguy
I have not heard one good thing come out of Cleveland since Mangini was hired. Not one.
MAC_32
Footballguy
They both look like average QB's that rely too heavily on their checkdowns to me.
kaa
Footballguy
Hard to get a read on Randy Lerner. He has been widely praised in the UK for turning around Aston Villa FC. In particular, he has been willing to spend big money to make them competitive again. Of course, the NFL and its revenue-sharing pretty much nullifies the advantage of having a free-spending owner. It would be better if he owned the Cleveland Indians.
It makes it seem plausible that Lerner may be willing to fire Mangini quickly and hire an expensive big-name coach.
It makes it seem plausible that Lerner may be willing to fire Mangini quickly and hire an expensive big-name coach.
Fallerjw
Footballguy
McCoy - 41 games928 of 1320 for 10,877 yards 94 TD 38 INTQuinn - 35 games772 of 1270 for 9,931 yards 86 TD 24 INTThey actually look pretty comparable to me.
Chaka
Footballguy
Yes they do look comparable on paper.McCoy - 41 games928 of 1320 for 10,877 yards 94 TD 38 INTQuinn - 35 games772 of 1270 for 9,931 yards 86 TD 24 INTThey actually look pretty comparable to me.
dparker713
Footballguy
So a 70% passer and a 60% passer are comparable to you? Also, UT runs the spread option and McCoy was the leading rusher on UT last in addition to throwing at an 80% clip. They're absolutely nothing alike.Also, Quinn had 2 good years at ND. That said, Bradford is likely the better pro prospect, though he may not turn out to be the better pro.McCoy - 41 games928 of 1320 for 10,877 yards 94 TD 38 INTQuinn - 35 games772 of 1270 for 9,931 yards 86 TD 24 INTThey actually look pretty comparable to me.
Chaka
Footballguy
I don't like to argue using statistics (too easily skewed). Quinn did have two fantastic years statistically on what was clearly an overrated Notre Dame team, that incidentally was responsible for Jamarcus Russell becoming the #1 pick in the draft. Did Quinn ever win a true big game at ND?Beyond the pinball like statistics McCoy appears to have more pocket presence and the ability to extend plays that Quinn seems to lack. He also has played, IMO, against better competition.I would hate to see a rookie QB have to come up under Mangini though. Mangini really looks like he is completely clueless when it comes to player management. He is trying to be Belichick and he doesn't have the chops for it so he is coming off as a totalitarian dictator and he is going to lose his team (if he hasn't already). Any rookie QB would be doomed under Mangini.So a 70% passer and a 60% passer are comparable to you? Also, UT runs the spread option and McCoy was the leading rusher on UT last in addition to throwing at an 80% clip. They're absolutely nothing alike.Also, Quinn had 2 good years at ND. That said, Bradford is likely the better pro prospect, though he may not turn out to be the better pro.McCoy - 41 games928 of 1320 for 10,877 yards 94 TD 38 INTQuinn - 35 games772 of 1270 for 9,931 yards 86 TD 24 INTThey actually look pretty comparable to me.
eric rymer
Footballguy
Mr. Retukes said:Spending a top-5 pick on a QB is one of the biggest risks in the entire NFL. For every Matt Ryan, there are 2 Ryan Leafs. And usually when a top-5 QB fails, he fails MISERABLY. It's boom or bust. There's no in-between. If a QB fails as a starter, then he's useless to the team.
not to mention the financial strain of having $60+ million tied up in a guy you missed on.
Balco
Footballguy
The Browns have a ton of holes, so spending so much $$$$ on a qb might seem risky. But if Bradford's shoulder checks out, he is a fine #1 pick. Awesome prospect and the clear #1, IMO in the draft. If they decide they are 2-3 years away, they might want to trade down and nab a guy like Terrance Cody (# 2 prospect, IMO). He would be a Jamal Williams like anchor for that 3-4.
Reaper
Footballguy
This I'm surprised at.....To me, as a Jets fan, THE BIGGEST, complaint (Way more than anything Favre) I had last year as the team fell apart was the "Sit Back" Read and React - Rush 3 player Defense.... So, now Mangini has Rob Ryan...HOW THE HELL DO YOU LOSE AND STILL NOT SEND THE HOUSE...Rex would do it... Doesn't Rob have an ounce of Ryan Blood?To me it's like watching your baseball team lose with guys not even swinging the bat.It absolutely Killed me last year - All the Mediocre QB's they allowed to sit back there and have time to find an open guy..... WHY? You're LOSING anyway... Go for it... Try to change your own luck - If you get burned so be it. You were only getting nickel and dimed to death anyway.Haven't seen much CLE this year but, I've been wondering how the blitz was doing.
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ChrisCooleyFan
Footballguy
Redskins will be selecting 1st overall 
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Not going to happen. Cowher could have had the Browns job before when they were a better team -- why on earth would he take it now?If Cowher goes anywhere nest season it will likely be Carolina.
TommyGilmore
Footballguy
No kidding. At least you can get some use out of a $60 million offensive lineman, even if he doesn't turn out to be a total stud. (Bengals excepted, of course.)Mr. Retukes said:Spending a top-5 pick on a QB is one of the biggest risks in the entire NFL. For every Matt Ryan, there are 2 Ryan Leafs. And usually when a top-5 QB fails, he fails MISERABLY. It's boom or bust. There's no in-between. If a QB fails as a starter, then he's useless to the team.
Masked Vigilante
Footballguy
Jimmy Clausen is going #1
Chaka
Footballguy
Why?Here I'll start: 2004 v Michigan 28-20 & 17-13 at Tennessee (it is never easy to win at Tenn)
2005 17-10 @ Michigan
2006 14-10 @ Georgia Tech & 41-17 v Penn State
I guess you can argue that those teams were down at the time but I will call those decent wins. But he never won a bowl game and never beat USC (which is nothing to be ashamed of...even if Stanford, Oregon State, UCLA & Washington all managed to) which would all be unquestionably big wins and Brady never pulled it off. He was good but has been nothing special so far.
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GregR_2
Footballguy
(Note #1: I'm taking this question further than you're asking to a general thing, so don't think I'm referring to you specifically in this reply, even if I use your question as a specific example)Because the answer to that question depends as much (if not more) on whether ND was a complete enough team to win a big game. Since we're trying to answer questions about how good of a QB Quinn is, why would we give a lot of weight in our investigation on something whose result depends largely on something other than Quinn, when there are other things that depend much more on him?
And this is a perfect example of why this is so. Did Quinn win a big game at ND? Let's say for arguments sake the answer is no. Now ask was Quinn a good enough QB that ND could have won a big game? The answer has to obviously be yes. He had ND leading USC at the end of the 4th quarter, with a win sending ND to a national championship game. So is the fact that ND didn't win when his offense had them in a position to do so a sign that he's not fit to be an NFL QB?
Why is one question not very appropriate and the other is at least somewhat more appropriate? (Note #2: I probably wouldn't be asking a question about big games at all because I think even the definition of "big game" is extremely subjective in college football and not necessarily something that we have reason to believe predicts NFL success well. But I'm running with it since it was the example.)
Let's say after ND has taken the lead with time running low, that Jarret bobbles and drops the 4th and long pass that he actually caught and took 60-70 yards. USC loses, and Quinn wins the big game. Does the USC receiver's ability to make the catch change anything about Brady Quinn's capability as QB? Of course not. If ND has a better corner who knocks the ball away, does that make Brady Quinn a better QB? Of course not. Let's say the ref decides to throw the flag when Reggie Bush pushes Matt Leinart into the end zone for the winning TD. Does ND now winning because of the ref's noting the push change anything about Brady Quinn's capabilities as a QB? Of course not.
It doesn't matter if we use statistics or if we talk qualitatively. If we don't focus our questions to be objective and relate to the matter at hand we want an answer to, we're not going to get a good result. There are plenty of good things both statistically and qualitatively we can ask to address the question. And just because something isn't statistics doesn't mean it's a good question for the topic, any more than something being statistics means it is a bad question.
And for transparency's sake I'll add that I am a big ND fan and that I had and still have doubts that Quinn will be an effective NFL QB. Some things he does well but others he is lacking. In particular I think he has (or at least had, at ND) mechanics issues where he floats balls and overthrows too much that will lead to more INTs than he had in college as he'll be facing speedier DBs who can react quicker to his soft throws. I think there's plenty of room in Quinn's game for criticizing which I'll happily do where warranted. This is about whether the question being asked is meaningful, not about defending Quinn. The same needs to be asked when looking at statistics. I think ruling any talk of statistics out is as silly as ruling out any discussion that doesn't involve them. In each case we need to evaluate just how pertinent it is to the topic.
I think where people's dislike for statistics comes in is because people show up with a predefined position they will defend rather than trying to find the best answer. But that has nothing to do with statistics. Someone who is out to wage an argument that defends their position is going to do so whether it is using statistics or a qualitative approach. The better thing is to keep an objective mind and weed through all of that to try to find meaningful questions that relate to the topic.
I think Drinen summed up this mentality very well recently in another thread. Someone, who obviously doesn't know Doug very well, accused him of trying to use the stats to make the answer look a certain way. Doug's reply was along the lines of, why would I care what the answer is as long as it is the right one? Unfortunately, not enough people have Doug's outlook on such things. But the type of facts and questions being used doesn't change whether a person is trying to find an answer in the facts, or trying to find facts to support an answer. So I think it's misleading at best or self-deluding at worst to think one type of argument is to be trusted or not just because it includes stats or not.
Sweetness_34
Footballguy
That 1st pick will go to the Rams....I think the Brownies will win one game.... probably against Det or Cincy
Chaka
Footballguy
That was a very well considered response Greg. No I am not offended 1) because I know you and your rep and respect both and 2) it was not offensive.
I do not disagree with your take on the subjectivity of my original question. Of course football is the ultimate team sport and one player is generally not solely responsible for any single win or loss (although Titans fans might disagree with that this week).
But I disagree that the losses to USC (and the bowl games) do not change what kind of QB Quinn is going forward. Tough losses (or blowouts) can easily impact the way a player performs going forward. To use a singular, very extreme, example Ryan Leaf was all roses when he was winning in college but failure was something very unfamiliar to him and he simply could not deal with the pressure. I don't think that Brady Quinn is even remotely the head case that Leaf was but I won't go so far as to say that those tough losses did not negatively impact him going forward.
Either way I was never impressed with his talent in college and I have seen nothing in his limited professional action that has changed my mind. It is too early to anoint Sanchez or Stafford but both of them look than anything I have seen from Quinn in the NFL, as did Flacco and Ryan last season. Both from a qualitative and quantitative perspective. On the plus side he blows the doors off of Jamarcus Russell.
The book is not closed on the guy by any stretch but by the time Mangini gets through with him, IMO, it will be time to open the book on the next franchise QB in Cleveland and Quinn will need to resurrect his career somewhere else.
I do not disagree with your take on the subjectivity of my original question. Of course football is the ultimate team sport and one player is generally not solely responsible for any single win or loss (although Titans fans might disagree with that this week).
But I disagree that the losses to USC (and the bowl games) do not change what kind of QB Quinn is going forward. Tough losses (or blowouts) can easily impact the way a player performs going forward. To use a singular, very extreme, example Ryan Leaf was all roses when he was winning in college but failure was something very unfamiliar to him and he simply could not deal with the pressure. I don't think that Brady Quinn is even remotely the head case that Leaf was but I won't go so far as to say that those tough losses did not negatively impact him going forward.
Either way I was never impressed with his talent in college and I have seen nothing in his limited professional action that has changed my mind. It is too early to anoint Sanchez or Stafford but both of them look than anything I have seen from Quinn in the NFL, as did Flacco and Ryan last season. Both from a qualitative and quantitative perspective. On the plus side he blows the doors off of Jamarcus Russell.
The book is not closed on the guy by any stretch but by the time Mangini gets through with him, IMO, it will be time to open the book on the next franchise QB in Cleveland and Quinn will need to resurrect his career somewhere else.
Jewell
Footballguy
With the first pick of the 2010 NFL Draft the Cleveland Browns select...
I didn't even read any of the responses. I just know that the title of this thread is an absolute certainty. I've seen many bad offenses in my days of watching the NFL (read: 2008 Raiders), but this may be the worst offense I've ever seen.
The Browns fans deserve better. First they lose their team to Baltimore, and now this ####. This is why I don't believe in karma.
I didn't even read any of the responses. I just know that the title of this thread is an absolute certainty. I've seen many bad offenses in my days of watching the NFL (read: 2008 Raiders), but this may be the worst offense I've ever seen.
The Browns fans deserve better. First they lose their team to Baltimore, and now this ####. This is why I don't believe in karma.
Chaka
Footballguy
Don't forget the part about the team they lost winning the Super Bowl.
kutta
Footballguy
Since the OP mentioned taking Bradford #1, let's look at all the QB's taken #1 since 1970:2007: JaMarcus Russell, LSU ( Oakland Raiders )Mr. Retukes said:
2005: Alex Smith, Utah, ( San Francisco 49ers )
2004: Eli Manning, Mississippi ( San Diego Chargers )
2003: Carson Palmer, Southern Cal. ( Cincinnati Bengals )
2002: David Carr, Fresno State ( Houston Texans )
2001: Michael Vick, Virginia Tech ( Atlanta Falcons )
1999: Tim Couch, Kentucky ( Cleveland Browns )
1998: Peyton Manning, Tennessee ( Indianapolis Colts )
1993: Drew Bledsoe, Washington State ( New England Patriots )
1990: Jeff George, Illinois ( Indianapolis Colts )
1989: Troy Aikman, UCLA ( Dallas Cowboys )
1987: Vinny Testaverde, Miami, (Fla.) ( Tampa Bay Buccaneers )
1983: John Elway, Stanford ( Baltimore Colts )
1975: Steve Bartkowski, California ( Atlanta Falcons )
1971: Jim Plunkett, Stanford ( New England Patriots )
1970: Terry Bradshaw, Louisiana Tech ( Pittsburgh Steelers )
On this list, out of 16 guys, I'd say there are four true busts (highlighted) - it might be early for Russel but the guy pretty much really sucks. I'd say there are 6 or 7 guys "extremely worthy" of the #1 pick (Bradshaw, Elway, Aikman, P. Manning, E. Manning, and maybe Vick and Palmer if dogs and injuries didn't get in the way). Plunkett, Testaverde, and Bartkowski had pretty decent careers and might be considered "worth" the top pick if you consider their entire careers.
Just based on this history, I think I would disagree with your premise that drafting an early QB is one of the biggest risks in the NFL. I know you said top 5 QB, and I did not go back and look through all those because the OP was talking about the #1 pick. But it appears as though taking a QB #1 is not such a terrible thing to do. I think you could find 8 out of the 16 guys and call them a resounding success, while only 4 out of 16 are complete busts. Those aren't terrible odds.
MAC_32
Footballguy
What's your point? When your team is drafting #1 overall, doesn't have a QB, and a franchise one is available you take him.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Rob Ryan rarely rushed more than 4 when he was in Oakland, he's a perfect fit for Mangini's not wanting to pressure the QB defensive scheme. To be fair, even if they were calling blitzes I'm not confident it'd be effective anyway, but at least they'd be trying.
Texasmouth
Footballguy
I think the problem is the offensive line, poor rushing attack and lazy receivers, not Brady Quinn or Mangenius.
Texasmouth
Footballguy
Brady Quinn > Sam Bradford in 5 years.
MAC_32
Footballguy
The only time McCoy played a competent defense last season, Ohio St, he rarely if ever went to anyone but his checkdown. This is why I think he's Quinn part deux. Quinn was a QB of a very bad team, I don't think it's fair to criticize him for not winning (m)any big games, his team sucked. McCoy's team >>>>> Quinn's team.
MAC_32
Footballguy
If he were given an opportunity, maybe. Problem is he isn't going to get a fair one in Cleveland, whether it's right or wrong. I heavily lean toward the latter.
MAC_32
Footballguy
The left side of the line is fine, the right side is embarrassing. You're right about the RB's and WR's, wrong about the coach, and I have no idea if you're right or wrong about the QB because the idiot coach won't play him.
