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With Warner gone (1 Viewer)

Spaz

Footballguy
It looks like LHUCKS' party boy is going to be running the offense.

Does this drop Fitz from the top 5? Top 10? Is Boldin any more/less likely to be traded?

Beanie Wells will surely get more carries but with a lousier offense that mean fewer and shorter drives plus defenses stacking the line.

Seahawks/Niners fans now have a very reasonable belief for thinking their team can win the division.

 
I agree, but whoever will be WR2 (Boldin, Breaston, Doucet, FA) takes a huge decline in fantasy value.

The WR3 in AZ is no longer fantasy worthy either. Expect a huge dose of the run game.

 
When is the prime time to trade away Leinard? Right now, or wait till he puts up good stats in a pre-season game? Or wait for a good regular season game..... if he wins the starting job.... and if he's good enough to have at least one good game in the first 4 or 5...? Maybe I should just dump him to the Warner owner right now and be happy with whatever I can get...

 
I agree, but whoever will be WR2 (Boldin, Breaston, Doucet, FA) takes a huge decline in fantasy value. The WR3 in AZ is no longer fantasy worthy either. Expect a huge dose of the run game.
Boldin gets as many targets as Fitz when he plays, no matter who the QB is. He doesn't take any bigger hit in vlaue than Fitz and may take a lesser one since he is viewed as likely to be gone.
 
I think Leinart is a hold right now unless you can get a top 8-10 QB (or similar value). Otherwise, just wait and hope with all those offensive weapons in AZ that he becomes a legit franchise QB.

 
I think Leinart is a hold right now unless you can get a top 8-10 QB (or similar value). Otherwise, just wait and hope with all those offensive weapons in AZ that he becomes a legit franchise QB.
This is my feeling as well. I have no problem with the weak arm or interceptions. They can game plan for a weak arm. And the interceptions can be coached out of him. My problem is the attitude. I don't see the competitiveness or leadership I see in guys like the Mannings, Brees, Rivers, and Roethlisberger. Leinart needs to show this to overcome his physical shortcomings. Sometimes the attitude does click for players--just look at Cedric Benson. I have Leinart in one league. And for the price I paid for him, I'm willing to see if it clicks for him.
 
I think Leinart is a hold right now unless you can get a top 8-10 QB (or similar value). Otherwise, just wait and hope with all those offensive weapons in AZ that he becomes a legit franchise QB.
I disagree. Trade him to the Warner owner for whatever you can get that has value, including a third round rookie pick. I would rather draft a rookie QB in this year's rookie draft than hope Leinart will suddenly become good. We have already seen what he does with all "those offensive weapons." It isn't pretty. If you wait he will have no value at all. Right now he is at least a starting QB and someone may be hoping he can be good like Denver Broncos. Trade him to that guy in your league.
 
I think Leinart is a hold right now unless you can get a top 8-10 QB (or similar value). Otherwise, just wait and hope with all those offensive weapons in AZ that he becomes a legit franchise QB.
I disagree. Trade him to the Warner owner for whatever you can get that has value, including a third round rookie pick. I would rather draft a rookie QB in this year's rookie draft than hope Leinart will suddenly become good. We have already seen what he does with all "those offensive weapons." It isn't pretty. If you wait he will have no value at all. Right now he is at least a starting QB and someone may be hoping he can be good like Denver Broncos. Trade him to that guy in your league.
this is horrible advice, trade him for a 3rd round pick??? The QB you'd get with that 3rd round pick will likely never even get a shot to start, or any player gotten with that 3rd will likely be worthless.Leinart is taking over a great offense, he actually could be ok you know, at least he'll get a chance...unlike the player you'd get with a worthless 3rd round rookie pick.Just horrid horrid advice, you should honestly be ashamed of yourself.
 
I think Leinart is actually a guy to buy. I don't think he'll ever be a quality fantasy option but it seems his value is lower than it should be for a guy that is going to be starting.

 
I think you bump Rackers up too....I see them shifting strategy a little to rely more on the running game, short to mid range passing, keep developing that defense, and kicking more FGs.

 
I think it means we'll look back at the 2008/2009 Cardinals as "that time they were competitive and almost won a Super Bowl." Shame for their fans they didn't capitalize.

 
Assuming he stays in Arizona, I don't think Boldin's value takes much of a hit at all with Leinart at the helm. Here are Boldin's numbers in the 17 games he and Leinart have started together:

5 catches, 53 yards

3 catches, 38 yards

4 catches, 22 yards, 1 TD

4 catches, 83 yards

14 catches, 181 yards, 2 TDs

4 catches, 71 , 1 TD

12 catches, 136, 1 TD

4 catches, 59 yards

4 catches, 47 yards

2 catches, 53 yards

5 catches, 87 yards

9 catches, 140, 1TD

2 catches, 32 yards

4 catches, 47 yards

5 catches, 60 yards

4 catches, 64 yards

4 catches, 112 yards

Over a 16 game season, this would average to 84 catches, 1209 yards, and 6 TDs. Assuming that Leinart shows a LITTLE improvement, I don't think Boldin's numbers will take much of a hit. The biggest question mark for him will always be health.

 
Based on the talk in the "Warner HOF" thread, we shouldn't see a dropoff at all because obviously Warner was propped up by playing with elite-level receivers. There's no reason why Leinart won't be able to put up the same numbers that Bulger, Trent Green and Eli Manning put up.

 
idk about the passing game but im all over Beanie like white on rice from what i saw of that kid this past season

 
This team has been a legitimate contender two years running. No way they go into the 2010 season with a no-talent like Leinart starting. Leinart will never carry more fantasy trade value than he does right now. Ditch him while you can.

 
Assuming he stays in Arizona, I don't think Boldin's value takes much of a hit at all with Leinart at the helm. Here are Boldin's numbers in the 17 games he and Leinart have started together:5 catches, 53 yards3 catches, 38 yards4 catches, 22 yards, 1 TD4 catches, 83 yards14 catches, 181 yards, 2 TDs4 catches, 71 , 1 TD12 catches, 136, 1 TD4 catches, 59 yards4 catches, 47 yards2 catches, 53 yards5 catches, 87 yards9 catches, 140, 1TD2 catches, 32 yards4 catches, 47 yards5 catches, 60 yards4 catches, 64 yards4 catches, 112 yardsOver a 16 game season, this would average to 84 catches, 1209 yards, and 6 TDs. Assuming that Leinart shows a LITTLE improvement, I don't think Boldin's numbers will take much of a hit. The biggest question mark for him will always be health.
The bigger question mark is whether the offense changes to a more balanced approach with Warner gone. Which would result in fewer pass attempts and, thus, fewer targets to go around. So looking at those past numbers don't necessarily seem like a good predictor to me. Not to mention the fact that I expect Boldin will be traded anyway. This would probably be a more valuable exercise for Fitz.
 
I'm going to just focus on Fitz for now. This discussion will also apply to others in the offense in different ways, but that's for another post/discussion.

There are really two issues to be considered here with regard to the impact on Fitz's performance going forward. First, how will his targets in 2010 and beyond compare to the targets he has received in recent years? Second, how will his production per target compare to what it was in recent years?

I looked up some data for Fitz and Leinart. Given that it's hard to account for times when Leinart relieved another QB vs. when he was pulled for another QB, I just chose all games in which both played and Leinart had 20 or more passing attempts and compared them to all of Fitz's other games (regular season and postseason) from 2006 to 2009, since Leinart joined the team in 2006. Here's the data:

Games in which Fitzgerald played and Leinart had 20+ pass attempts:

12 games, 97 targets, 60 receptions, 742 receiving yards (12.4 ypr), 4 TDs

Per 16 games, this scales to 129 targets, 80 receptions, 989 receiving yards, 5 TDs

All other games (regular season and postseason) played by Fitzgerald from 2006 to 2009:

54 games, 533 targets, 345 receptions, 4847 receiving yards (14 ypr), 46 TDs

Per 16 games, this scales to 158 targets, 102 receptions, 1436 receiving yards, 14 TDs

Obviously there is an enormous difference. This suggests that Leinart will indeed have a negative impact on Fitz's numbers. With Leinart, Fitz averaged fewer targets and his production per target was lower.

Of course, one might argue that Leinart has a chance to be better this year, especially since if he is going to be the starter he will have the chance to work all offseason and preseason with Fitz and the rest of the first team offense. But can that make up this huge gap? I seriously doubt it.

And I'd be concerned that with Warner out and Leinart in, the offense will shift to a more balanced attack, with more running and less passing. Check out where the offense ranked in passing and rushing attempts over the past 4 seasons:

2006 - #7 in passing attempts, #26 in rushing attempts

2007 - #2 in passing attempts, #25 in rushing attempts

2008 - #2 in passing attempts, #32 in rushing attempts

2009 - #3 in passing attempts, #32 in rushing attempts

I expect Whisenhunt to adjust to a more balanced attack going forward, given that he will no longer have one of the best passing QBs in the NFL.

I suppose if the Cardinals traded for McNabb or somehow otherwise obtained a potential top 10 caliber QB, Fitz could be alright. But otherwise, I fully expect him to dropoff from his performance in recent years. His talent hasn't changed, and he will still certainly be a top 20 WR, maybe still a top 10 WR. But if I had him in a dynasty league, I'd strongly consider trading him if he would still bring similar value to what he would have brought last year.

 
This team has been a legitimate contender two years running. No way they go into the 2010 season with a no-talent like Leinart starting. Leinart will never carry more fantasy trade value than he does right now. Ditch him while you can.
Leinart will be starting for AZ this season.
 
I will continue to hold Leinart, unless someone gives me a ridiculous offer. If someone offered me ADP or MJD for him, I would certainly pull that trigger(not that anyone would).

Leinart is in a good situation with good skill position players and depth. He is still a young QB and can still grow. His OL is good if not great, which all leads up to possible success.

He has neither looked like a bum nor a world beater. At this stage in his career, is he any better than Brees was? I am not saying he will become Brees, but there is always that possibility.

 
If Leinart is the starting QB this fall Arizona had better change their offensive strategy to be more like the Jets. Is that possible though? Leinart is more of a "rookie game manager" than he is a seasoned 4 year vet.

Beanie and Hightower :sadbanana:

 
Gosh, I sure hope people think Fitz will drop to the #10 WR. I think I'd faint if 9 WR's were off the board and it was my turn to draft and Larry was still there.

Beanies value goes up.

Hightowers value goes down.

Fitz remains a top 5 WR.

I'm not sure my thoughts on Boldin yet. If they get an offer that blows them away then they'll pull the trigger, but I really do not think they will have any problem at all holding on to him for one more year to help out Leinart and letting him walk next year. And I'd also be surprised if the Cardinals don't draft/sign a receiving tight end that will give Leinart another option.

It will be a different offense, but I still think Leinart will be a serviceable backup. Whisenhunt knows what he has in Fitz, so while they may switch up the offense, there will still be a big section of the playbook with Larry's name on it.

As a Cardinal fan, I think the offense will do alright this year. Obviously the expectations are lowered a little, but I am more concerned about what they are going to do on the defensive side of the ball. Rolle needs a new contract (he's due to make a huge number this year and needs to renegotiate). Dockett is crying about a new contract. Dansby is as good as gone. B. Berry retired, Okeafor is ageing, McFadden is too hot and cold.

It'll be interesting.

 
Saints-Man said:
He has neither looked like a bum nor a world beater. At this stage in his career, is he any better than Brees was? I am not saying he will become Brees, but there is always that possibility.
There may have never been a statement made in the Shark Pool that I disagreed with more than this one.
 
I'm not bumping anyone down until I know for sure who'll be behind center for Arizona. I am though bumping Wells up. Just too much confusion right now to go moving players up or down not knowing the variables. I do think the chances of the 49ers winning the division have increased but think it'll be a battle to the end of the season between the Cardsand Niners.

 
When is the prime time to trade away Leinard? Right now, or wait till he puts up good stats in a pre-season game?
I'd say right now. You have to figure there's some chance that the Cards acquire a veteran QB which would cloub Leinart's value.ETA: Unlike some previous posters I'm not suggesting giving him away for whatever you can get. I'm saying strike while the iron is hot. If you can get good value while people have thoughts of Leinart leading a productive offense, move him. If you are offered peanuts hold and hope.
 
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don banks of SI on leinart...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writ...nals/index.html

After Warner's heroics, Leinart's career deserves fresh perspective

Now that Kurt Warner has made the call and thrown his last NFL touchdown pass with pinpoint accuracy, what do we know about the Arizona Cardinals once again being Matt Leinart's team, other than that's what it says right here?

Maybe all we really know for certain is there's much we still don't know. Drafted 10th overall in 2006, Leinart's four-year NFL career to this point gets a well-deserved incomplete. Thanks to Warner's unprecedented late-career renaissance, Leinart has been virtually off the radar screen in Arizona for more than two and a half seasons, and the prism through which we once viewed his likely career arc is in desperate need of a fresh look.

Today, from the vantage point of January 2010, it doesn't seem quite so shocking or humiliating any more that Leinart couldn't beat out Warner in their head-to-head training camp duel of 2008. But at the time, Leinart was 25 and the future; Warner was 37 and seen as the past.

In retrospect, there's certainly no shame in having made way for the Warner of 2008-2009. Losing his job to Warner didn't make Leinart a bust, just the unlucky young quarterback whose development had to be put on hold in the pursuit of a special and unique opportunity. Knowing what we know now, the Cardinals obviously made the right choice in 2008.

When considering the possibilities of the Leinart era starting anew in Arizona, I think it's instructive to review the lessons we've already learned from the unconventional and wildly unpredictable careers of Jay Cutler and Vince Young, the other two celebrated quarterbacks selected along with Leinart in the first round of the 2006 draft.

Cutler, taken just behind Leinart at No. 11, by Denver, has ridden a rollercoaster like no other young quarterback in memory. First he was a wunderkind with the Broncos, an obvious quarterbacking talent who appeared destined to be the best of the first-round threesome. Then, in order, he morphed into a turnover-prone, risk-taking enigma, the vilified personification of the spoiled, selfish athlete, the conquering savior come to Chicago, and finally took another turn as the turnover-prone enigma, this time as a Bear. And all of that in a dizzying four-year span.

As for Young, his ride has been a bit different, but wild and chaotic nonetheless. The first quarterback taken in 2006 went from being a heralded rookie of the year talent who saved the Titans season and helped revolutionize the quarterback position, to a struggling second-year player whose dedication to his craft was called into question even within his own organization. And then the bottom fell out, with Young being benched early in 2008 in favor of Kerry Collins, and seen as an immature and disillusioned young man who was viewed as a potential threat to harm himself by those closest to him. As for his team, it won and won big without him.

Then came this season, and the revival of his career after the Titans started 0-6 with Collins. A new and improved Young took over at quarterback and went 8-2 in the season's final 10 games, becoming one of the best comeback stories of the year and again cementing himself as the future of the Tennessee franchise. Once again, all of this in an eventful four-year span.

Can we really presume to know what fate awaits the still 26-year-old Leinart as he restarts his career? Can't he have the same sort of surprises, both good and bad, still in store for us? I'd say the odds are pretty good that he does.

A few other reminders seem to be in order when it comes to Leinart and where he might go from here. It's largely forgotten now, buried by three years of mostly inactivity, but he didn't fare badly at all as a rookie in 2006. Though the Cardinals went 5-11 that season in their final year of the Dennis Green coaching era, Leinart was 4-7 as the team's starter, and certainly played well enough to deserve a win in that memorable late-game meltdown against Chicago on Monday Night Football. ("The Bears are who we thought they were!'')

Leinart actually threw two touchdowns in the first quarter in each of his first two career starts, and later that season threw for an NFL rookie-record 405 yards (on 31 of 51 passing) in a 31-26 loss at Minnesota. The Cardinals won four of Leinart's final six starts, and the former USC star set the franchise record for most passing yards by a rookie (2,547) and became the first Cardinals QB in five years to post three games with a 100-plus passer rating.

In short, Leinart's rookie season was viewed as a pretty good first step. He threw 11 touchdowns and 12 interceptions, but he completed 60 percent or more of his passes in five of his final six starts, and had at least 200 yards passing in eight of his 11 starts. In fact, comparing Leinart's rookie season to the years just turned in by Mark Sanchez, Matthew Stafford and Josh Freeman shows Leinart threw for more yards, with a higher completion percentage and passer rating, and a better TD-to-INT ratio than all three of those 2009 rookies. And no one framed Sanchez, Stafford or Freeman as rookie-season failures.

In 2007, Leinart broke his collarbone in Arizona's fifth game, ending his year. But he helped lead the Cardinals to a 3-2 start in those games, albeit sharing time with Warner in some situations, when new head coach Ken Whisenhunt chose to insert the veteran to run the hurry-up or two-minute offense. Warner started the season's final 11 games and went on to throw 27 touchdown passes that season, setting up the 2008 training camp competition.

And there's one more recent footnote that should give Cardinals fans some hope in the post-Warner era: In the only start he made in 2009, Leinart played superbly, completing 21 of 31 for 220 yards without an interception in Week 12 at Tennessee. The Cardinals were in position to win until the final play of the game, but Leinart's fine performance was completely lost in the shuffle once his '06 classmate and collegiate nemesis, Vince Young, led the Titans on a breathtaking 18-play, 99-yard drive to win 20-17.

The worst that can be said about Leinart is he has proven himself to be less than effective in relief or mop-up situations playing behind Warner the past two seasons. He certainly didn't make the most of those situations and seems to play better when he opens the game, as he did against the Titans. Given Leinart's gaudy 37-2 record as a starter at USC, it makes sense that's where his comfort and experience lies.

My sense is the Cardinals will continue their transition to more of a running team under Leinart, asking more of lead back Beanie Wells than they did in his rookie season of '09, and taking some of the burden of the offense off Leinart's shoulders. They won't expect him to pick up right where Warner left off and execute the passing game to that level after almost three years of rust.

If Leinart is lucky, and best served by the Cardinals, they'll look at him anew, and reassess where his strengths and weaknesses lie as this fifth and pivotal next season of his career unfolds in Arizona. It's a good time for all of us to do the same, updating our perception of Leinart based on what we know now that we didn't know then.

He's not a first-round bust. Not yet, anyway. Just a guy who couldn't beat out a future Hall of Fame quarterback who was in the midst of maybe the greatest late-career resurgence of all time. Looking at it through that prism, Matt Leinart still has a chance to wind up being the right call for the Cardinals after all.

 

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