Yeah, Christo! We'd rather just read what's in front of us and accept it as gospel!give it a rest Christo - no need to ruin this thread for the masses...
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World War II (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
gmbacm
Footballguy
Yeah, Christo! We'd rather just read what's in front of us and accept it as gospel!
bentley
Footballguy
Or we could make our own judgments about when Tim's gone over the top, you obnoxious ####o. It's pretty obvious for anyone that's read his work for any amount of time.Yeah, Christo! We'd rather just read what's in front of us and accept it as gospel!
Chadstroma
Footballguy
I agree that it is time for them to move on. They are not so much arguing over facts now as they are just over who is right. On the other side, a lot of what is being discussed in this thread are finer points about the history of this period. You can count on many issues being brought up as to their basis in fact. A lot of what Tim is putting forth is not just the plain facts but a lot of conjecture and analysis- both of which are open to being false, misguided or a matter of opinion. I think that calling out anyone on this and being willing to debate it is important but once more, both tim and christo have gone beyond debating and are just trying to show who is right for the sake of being right and not wrong. Time to move on boys.
timschochet
Footballguy
British allies and colonies
Before I continue with the invasion of Poland, somebody asked me earlier to mention Canada's contributions to the war. Let's begin with the fact that when England declared war on Germany, she was joined by the four commonwealth nations: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and The Union of South Africa. (South Africa did not become a republic until after the war.) They did not have to do this; after the World War I, all of these nations had declared their independence from the British government, and declared they would make their own choice as to when to go to war. Yet, when the time came, they all dutifully joined England without question. I have no idea if there was even a debate in any of the countries. More on Canada and the other three nations later.
Eire (Southern Ireland) immediately declared neutrality. In fact, it's President, Eamon De Va Lera, may have been pro-German. He refused to allow the Royal Navy to use Irish ports. However, many individual Irish Catholics were pro-English and made great contributions. Of course, the Northern Irish Protestants were among the first to volunteer for the army and, as in previous wars, sacrificed much in battle. Just as our Southerners tend to be the most eager to fight in any war, so this is true of the Northern Irish.
In South Africa, those of British descent immediately volunteered to serve in great numbers. Those of Afrikaaner descent did not. Many of these were actually pro-Hitler; they were already anti-Semitic, and they remembered how the Kaiser came to their aid during the Boer War. One result of this was that, with the casualties suffered by British South Africans after the war, the Afrikaaners were able to assume a majority of voters and create the republic and Apartheid. I should also note, however, that the leading Afrikaner politician during the war, Jan Christian Smuts, was an old friend of Churchill and solidly behind the British (for which he was castigated after the war.)
The other 98% of the population of South Africa, of course, had no voice in these matters. They did make contributions to the war effort, but were never treated as anything other than manuel labor.
In the Raj (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and parts of some surrounding areas) the British attempted to draft loyal troops from the local populations. Some, such as the Ghurkhas, would serve bravely and loyally in the British army throughout the war. Others, like the Sikhs, were looking for any excuse to betray the British and eventually would in Singapore. The majority of Hindus followed Gandhi's lead and a took up a pacifist neutrality. Some of Gandhi's speeches at the time suggest that he welcomed a Nazi victory.
In the Middle East, many Arabs took their lead from the Mufti of Jerusalem and prayed for Hitler's success. Certainly in Egypt the royal house there longed for a relief from British rule. The Jews of Palestine had been fighting the British over immigration. However, when war was declared, they volunteered for the British Army en masse. (Many of these Jews had been trained by Orde Wingate, a very unusual British soldier who will reappear in this narrative.) However, the British commanders in Palestine really did not want these Jewish troops, because they believed correctly would become their enemies after the war. For now, the Jews were given no combat duties. This would change in time.
There is also inconclusive evidence that the Jewish terrorist group the Irgun, (which would eventually be led by Menachem Begin) received aid from the Nazis during this time, in an attempt to disrupt the mandate. This has always been denied by former members of that organization, but there is some reason to believe that it did happen.
Before I continue with the invasion of Poland, somebody asked me earlier to mention Canada's contributions to the war. Let's begin with the fact that when England declared war on Germany, she was joined by the four commonwealth nations: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and The Union of South Africa. (South Africa did not become a republic until after the war.) They did not have to do this; after the World War I, all of these nations had declared their independence from the British government, and declared they would make their own choice as to when to go to war. Yet, when the time came, they all dutifully joined England without question. I have no idea if there was even a debate in any of the countries. More on Canada and the other three nations later.
Eire (Southern Ireland) immediately declared neutrality. In fact, it's President, Eamon De Va Lera, may have been pro-German. He refused to allow the Royal Navy to use Irish ports. However, many individual Irish Catholics were pro-English and made great contributions. Of course, the Northern Irish Protestants were among the first to volunteer for the army and, as in previous wars, sacrificed much in battle. Just as our Southerners tend to be the most eager to fight in any war, so this is true of the Northern Irish.
In South Africa, those of British descent immediately volunteered to serve in great numbers. Those of Afrikaaner descent did not. Many of these were actually pro-Hitler; they were already anti-Semitic, and they remembered how the Kaiser came to their aid during the Boer War. One result of this was that, with the casualties suffered by British South Africans after the war, the Afrikaaners were able to assume a majority of voters and create the republic and Apartheid. I should also note, however, that the leading Afrikaner politician during the war, Jan Christian Smuts, was an old friend of Churchill and solidly behind the British (for which he was castigated after the war.)
The other 98% of the population of South Africa, of course, had no voice in these matters. They did make contributions to the war effort, but were never treated as anything other than manuel labor.
In the Raj (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and parts of some surrounding areas) the British attempted to draft loyal troops from the local populations. Some, such as the Ghurkhas, would serve bravely and loyally in the British army throughout the war. Others, like the Sikhs, were looking for any excuse to betray the British and eventually would in Singapore. The majority of Hindus followed Gandhi's lead and a took up a pacifist neutrality. Some of Gandhi's speeches at the time suggest that he welcomed a Nazi victory.
In the Middle East, many Arabs took their lead from the Mufti of Jerusalem and prayed for Hitler's success. Certainly in Egypt the royal house there longed for a relief from British rule. The Jews of Palestine had been fighting the British over immigration. However, when war was declared, they volunteered for the British Army en masse. (Many of these Jews had been trained by Orde Wingate, a very unusual British soldier who will reappear in this narrative.) However, the British commanders in Palestine really did not want these Jewish troops, because they believed correctly would become their enemies after the war. For now, the Jews were given no combat duties. This would change in time.
There is also inconclusive evidence that the Jewish terrorist group the Irgun, (which would eventually be led by Menachem Begin) received aid from the Nazis during this time, in an attempt to disrupt the mandate. This has always been denied by former members of that organization, but there is some reason to believe that it did happen.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Invasion of Poland, concluded
I'm almost reluctant to do this, because I've gotten so much of this invasion wrong. But what I'm about to relate is stuff that is not disputed, so far as I know, so here goes:
The Poles, outmatched and unable to recover from the initial surprise, lost battle after battle, and the German troops moved steadily towards Warsaw. The Polish government fled to Romania, and from there to London. There, they became known for the rest of the war as "The London Poles", and would be a subject of considerable controversy with regard to the Soviet Union.
Speaking of the Russians, they invaded on September 17, and occupied eastern Poland with relative ease. This invasion stunned several German generals who were not party to the agreement that Ribbentrop had reached with Stalin. It also, coupled with the Nazi/Soviet Pact, had a profound effect on the image of the U.S.S.R., especially among liberals. The Soviet Union had always been held up as the good guys of the world, fighting for the poor people everywhere. Many liberals were either unaware or ignored the mass murders, the trials, and all the misery of the collectivist state. This act opened their eyes, somewhat. (Though in many cases once Hitler invaded Russia, the USSR became heroes again.)
The Russians captured about 200,000 Polish soldiers. Most of these were eventually released. However, about 25,000 of the most elite Polish officers and men captured simply disappeared. They were deported to prison camps near the forest of Katyn, and I will return to their ultimate fate later on in this narrative.
Meanwhile, the Germans got to the outskirts of Warsaw and halted. It took some time to bring up their horse drawn artillery. They tried to negotiate a surrender, but Warsaw was defiant. Stukas bombed the city day and night, yet were unable to inflict significant damage which could not be repaired. (This fact might have been studied by the British who were so fearful of "The Bomber Always Gets Through", but apparently it wasn't.) For several days, Warsaw held out, fighting a lonely but brave battle, desperately hoping for British and French aid which was not forthcoming. (As I have described, the French were marching but not fighting, and the English were dropping leaflets.) Other Polish troops south of Warsaw attempted to counterattack, and had some limited success in driving the Germans back. However, within a few more days, it was all over. Warsaw finally surrendered, and the invasion was complete.
The Germans immediately annexed Danzig, and renamed the center of Poland the General Government Area. It's new governor was Hans Frank, a former Nazi lawyer who began to commit one crime after another, for which he was later hanged at Nuremberg. Intellectuals, teachers, some priests, political leaders, all communists were simply rounded up and shot. The plan for Poland had been laid out in Mein Kampf and would be carried out now by Frank and the other Nazi leaders: the Poles were to be a vast slave pool to serve Germany. The fate of the Jews of Poland is something I will attempt to describe in more detail later on.
Poland would not be an independent state again for another 40 years.
I'm almost reluctant to do this, because I've gotten so much of this invasion wrong. But what I'm about to relate is stuff that is not disputed, so far as I know, so here goes:
The Poles, outmatched and unable to recover from the initial surprise, lost battle after battle, and the German troops moved steadily towards Warsaw. The Polish government fled to Romania, and from there to London. There, they became known for the rest of the war as "The London Poles", and would be a subject of considerable controversy with regard to the Soviet Union.
Speaking of the Russians, they invaded on September 17, and occupied eastern Poland with relative ease. This invasion stunned several German generals who were not party to the agreement that Ribbentrop had reached with Stalin. It also, coupled with the Nazi/Soviet Pact, had a profound effect on the image of the U.S.S.R., especially among liberals. The Soviet Union had always been held up as the good guys of the world, fighting for the poor people everywhere. Many liberals were either unaware or ignored the mass murders, the trials, and all the misery of the collectivist state. This act opened their eyes, somewhat. (Though in many cases once Hitler invaded Russia, the USSR became heroes again.)
The Russians captured about 200,000 Polish soldiers. Most of these were eventually released. However, about 25,000 of the most elite Polish officers and men captured simply disappeared. They were deported to prison camps near the forest of Katyn, and I will return to their ultimate fate later on in this narrative.
Meanwhile, the Germans got to the outskirts of Warsaw and halted. It took some time to bring up their horse drawn artillery. They tried to negotiate a surrender, but Warsaw was defiant. Stukas bombed the city day and night, yet were unable to inflict significant damage which could not be repaired. (This fact might have been studied by the British who were so fearful of "The Bomber Always Gets Through", but apparently it wasn't.) For several days, Warsaw held out, fighting a lonely but brave battle, desperately hoping for British and French aid which was not forthcoming. (As I have described, the French were marching but not fighting, and the English were dropping leaflets.) Other Polish troops south of Warsaw attempted to counterattack, and had some limited success in driving the Germans back. However, within a few more days, it was all over. Warsaw finally surrendered, and the invasion was complete.
The Germans immediately annexed Danzig, and renamed the center of Poland the General Government Area. It's new governor was Hans Frank, a former Nazi lawyer who began to commit one crime after another, for which he was later hanged at Nuremberg. Intellectuals, teachers, some priests, political leaders, all communists were simply rounded up and shot. The plan for Poland had been laid out in Mein Kampf and would be carried out now by Frank and the other Nazi leaders: the Poles were to be a vast slave pool to serve Germany. The fate of the Jews of Poland is something I will attempt to describe in more detail later on.
Poland would not be an independent state again for another 40 years.
Redwes25
Footballguy
Just want to add that Stalin and the rest of the Soviet leadership including the general staff were shocked at how fast Poland collapsed and rushed into the fight with only a partially mobilized army. In addition, Stalin moved up the timing for implementing the rest of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and stormed into the Baltic states in the late September and early October. The Russians would take on a couple of actions in late the fall of 1939 which if Tim doesn't cover I will.
timschochet
Footballguy
By all means, please do! I was going to concentrate on the phoney war in the west, and probably would only have devoted a few sentences on this. Of course, the Winter War with Finland deserves much greater discussion a little later on.
By those Einsatzgruppen who you dismissed as playing a minor role up thread?
timschochet
Footballguy
Touche. Actually, from what I able to learn, a few by them, but much more by the actual SS who moved in quickly. But your point is well taken.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Phoney War
The six month lull in the west that followed the invasion of Poland was known as Sitzkrieg among German generals, the "Bore War" in London, and the "Phoney War" in America. This last term seems to have stuck; it was coined by Senator Borah of Idaho, a leading isolationist who died in February of 1940, two months before the "Phoney war" was over.
Actually there was fighting during this time, much of it significant, just not in the west between Germany, France, and England. The Germans used this lull to build up their troops facing France in preparation for an attack which was originally planned that fall and then delayed several times. Publicly, the Germans sought new negotiations in an attempt to keep the French and British offbalance. The British began to build up their expeditionary force in France, and worked with the French on a defensive strategy. (More on this later.)
In America, the Isolationist movement began to grow, thanks to Borah and others.
Roots of the American Isolationist Movement
It could be said that the founder of the isolationist movement was George Washington. In his farewell address, he warned Americans against engaging in "foreign entanglements." This was essentially the policy of American presidents all throughout the 19th century, except in matters of trade and expansion. (It is significant that American warships were the means of opening up Japan in the 1850s.) The United States typically ignored Washington's warning when it came to the pacific (Japan, the Philliphines, Hawaii, Guam, etc.) but we paid attention when it came to European land wars.
All this changed in 1917, when America sent a large force of Doughboys to win the First World War. When that war was over, the internationalist Woodrow Wilson attempted to set up a global role for America as the pre-eminant member of the League of Nations. In this he failed, as Congress refused to ratify the treaty that established the League. This was in part because Wilson was ill, and also stubborn in his refusal to compromise with his opponents, but there were deeper reasons as well. Henry Cabot Lodge, the main senator in opposition, asked a simple question: how would the League of Nations enforce international law among sovereign nations? The answer, of course, was the only way to do so was by force, and Lodge foresaw that this would turn the United States into an international policeman, having to use American troops to force the will of the League upon others. (This criticism is still relevant today with regards to the United Nations, which has the same flaws as the League in conception, IMO.)
With the advent of Hitler, and the growing and inevitable conflict between Germany, England, and France, many Americans looked at Europe in exasperation- they're at it again. Borah, Vandenberg, and many others spoke for millions of Americans when they said: we spent millions of dollars and thousands of lives bailing out the Europeans the last time, and what did it get us? Nothing, now it's come all over again. This time we stay out! America is protected by oceans on both sides, we don't need to be any part of that crazy war.
Roosevelt disagreed. He was not a man who kept a diary (unlike so many others of his time), and he left no memoirs, so we can only guess his real thinking based on his private statements at that time. If these can be believed, he thought that if England went down, that threatened America. Perhaps not in this generation, but in the next. Therefore, England must be helped to survive. FDR altered the neutrality act and declared "Cash and carry", which supposedly allowed any neutral party to purchase arms from the United States. In real terms this heavily favored the British, because how could the Germans get access to these arms? FDR would shortly look for more ways to help England, including at the expense of American laws. But he was limited in what he could do, because the polls at this time showed most Americans agreed with Borah.
The six month lull in the west that followed the invasion of Poland was known as Sitzkrieg among German generals, the "Bore War" in London, and the "Phoney War" in America. This last term seems to have stuck; it was coined by Senator Borah of Idaho, a leading isolationist who died in February of 1940, two months before the "Phoney war" was over.
Actually there was fighting during this time, much of it significant, just not in the west between Germany, France, and England. The Germans used this lull to build up their troops facing France in preparation for an attack which was originally planned that fall and then delayed several times. Publicly, the Germans sought new negotiations in an attempt to keep the French and British offbalance. The British began to build up their expeditionary force in France, and worked with the French on a defensive strategy. (More on this later.)
In America, the Isolationist movement began to grow, thanks to Borah and others.
Roots of the American Isolationist Movement
It could be said that the founder of the isolationist movement was George Washington. In his farewell address, he warned Americans against engaging in "foreign entanglements." This was essentially the policy of American presidents all throughout the 19th century, except in matters of trade and expansion. (It is significant that American warships were the means of opening up Japan in the 1850s.) The United States typically ignored Washington's warning when it came to the pacific (Japan, the Philliphines, Hawaii, Guam, etc.) but we paid attention when it came to European land wars.
All this changed in 1917, when America sent a large force of Doughboys to win the First World War. When that war was over, the internationalist Woodrow Wilson attempted to set up a global role for America as the pre-eminant member of the League of Nations. In this he failed, as Congress refused to ratify the treaty that established the League. This was in part because Wilson was ill, and also stubborn in his refusal to compromise with his opponents, but there were deeper reasons as well. Henry Cabot Lodge, the main senator in opposition, asked a simple question: how would the League of Nations enforce international law among sovereign nations? The answer, of course, was the only way to do so was by force, and Lodge foresaw that this would turn the United States into an international policeman, having to use American troops to force the will of the League upon others. (This criticism is still relevant today with regards to the United Nations, which has the same flaws as the League in conception, IMO.)
With the advent of Hitler, and the growing and inevitable conflict between Germany, England, and France, many Americans looked at Europe in exasperation- they're at it again. Borah, Vandenberg, and many others spoke for millions of Americans when they said: we spent millions of dollars and thousands of lives bailing out the Europeans the last time, and what did it get us? Nothing, now it's come all over again. This time we stay out! America is protected by oceans on both sides, we don't need to be any part of that crazy war.
Roosevelt disagreed. He was not a man who kept a diary (unlike so many others of his time), and he left no memoirs, so we can only guess his real thinking based on his private statements at that time. If these can be believed, he thought that if England went down, that threatened America. Perhaps not in this generation, but in the next. Therefore, England must be helped to survive. FDR altered the neutrality act and declared "Cash and carry", which supposedly allowed any neutral party to purchase arms from the United States. In real terms this heavily favored the British, because how could the Germans get access to these arms? FDR would shortly look for more ways to help England, including at the expense of American laws. But he was limited in what he could do, because the polls at this time showed most Americans agreed with Borah.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
However, there was a nice little battle in December of 1939. The German "pocket battleship" Graf Spee had been in the Atlantic raiding commerce since the beginning of the war. (The term "pocket battleship" was coined to describe the heavy cruisers that Germany built under the terms of the Treaty of Versailles; because of some technical innovations--the use of diesel engines rather than steam, and welding rather than riveting--they were able to substantially increase the armor and the guns aboard the ship, while still remaining within the limits of the convention.).
Captain Ludendorf of the Graf Spee was an old time naval officer, with a sense of honor. He rescued all the crews of the merchantmen he sank. After successful raids by the Graf Spee in the Indian and South Atlantic, the Royal Navy engaged in a desperate search for the Graf Spee. She was finally located off the coast of South America, by the RN light cruisers Achilles, Ajax and Exeter.
Ludendorf then did something that is inexplicable to this day. Instead of holding off and bombarding them at long range (his 11 inch guns had greater range than their 6 to 8 inch guns), he closed rapidly at 24 knots hoping to overpower them He mistakenly thought he was facing a cruiser and two destroyers. In the gun battle that followed, he severely damaged the Exeter, inflicted minor damage on the other two, but was hit in his diesel fuel processing system. This was not known for many years; the hit essentially made it impossible for the Graf Spee to ever return to Germany. The Achilles and the Ajax continued to shadow the Graf Spee, mostly staying out of the range of her guns. They were hoping to be able to make a night attack with torpedoes. As evening fell, the Graf Spee entered the River Plate, and made for the port of Montevideo, Uruguay.
Montevideo was a neutral port, and under the terms of neutrality, an enemy combatant vessel had to leave within 24 hours. However, an interesting cat and mouse game now took place. The neutrality terms also prohibited a combatant vessel from leaving within 24 hours of an enemy flag transport ship. So while the British were diplomatically insisting that Uruguay honor the terms of neutrality, they were secretly ordering merchant ships to leave port so as to keep the Graf Spee there longer, giving them time to bring more RN ships to the area. The cruiser Cumberland, which had been refitting in the Falkland Islands, was able to join the waiting fleet. The British also spread the information that the carrier Ark Royal, and a battleship, had joined the blockading fleet--this was days away from happening.
In the event, Captain Ludendorf believed he was facing overwhelming odds, knew he could not make it back to Germany, so he took the Graf Spee out of port with a skeleton crew and scuttled her, avoiding much loss of life. He was interned in Buenos Aires, and committed suicide.
I feel a personal interest in this battle, because after the war, as a boy, I boarded the Ajax when it was on a good will tour. I have the pictures to prove it.
The scuttling of the Graf Spee stunned Hitler.
Captain Ludendorf of the Graf Spee was an old time naval officer, with a sense of honor. He rescued all the crews of the merchantmen he sank. After successful raids by the Graf Spee in the Indian and South Atlantic, the Royal Navy engaged in a desperate search for the Graf Spee. She was finally located off the coast of South America, by the RN light cruisers Achilles, Ajax and Exeter.
Ludendorf then did something that is inexplicable to this day. Instead of holding off and bombarding them at long range (his 11 inch guns had greater range than their 6 to 8 inch guns), he closed rapidly at 24 knots hoping to overpower them He mistakenly thought he was facing a cruiser and two destroyers. In the gun battle that followed, he severely damaged the Exeter, inflicted minor damage on the other two, but was hit in his diesel fuel processing system. This was not known for many years; the hit essentially made it impossible for the Graf Spee to ever return to Germany. The Achilles and the Ajax continued to shadow the Graf Spee, mostly staying out of the range of her guns. They were hoping to be able to make a night attack with torpedoes. As evening fell, the Graf Spee entered the River Plate, and made for the port of Montevideo, Uruguay.
Montevideo was a neutral port, and under the terms of neutrality, an enemy combatant vessel had to leave within 24 hours. However, an interesting cat and mouse game now took place. The neutrality terms also prohibited a combatant vessel from leaving within 24 hours of an enemy flag transport ship. So while the British were diplomatically insisting that Uruguay honor the terms of neutrality, they were secretly ordering merchant ships to leave port so as to keep the Graf Spee there longer, giving them time to bring more RN ships to the area. The cruiser Cumberland, which had been refitting in the Falkland Islands, was able to join the waiting fleet. The British also spread the information that the carrier Ark Royal, and a battleship, had joined the blockading fleet--this was days away from happening.
In the event, Captain Ludendorf believed he was facing overwhelming odds, knew he could not make it back to Germany, so he took the Graf Spee out of port with a skeleton crew and scuttled her, avoiding much loss of life. He was interned in Buenos Aires, and committed suicide.
I feel a personal interest in this battle, because after the war, as a boy, I boarded the Ajax when it was on a good will tour. I have the pictures to prove it.
The scuttling of the Graf Spee stunned Hitler.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Gunther Prien and the Royal Oak
Though the war would be quiet in Western Europe, it was not quiet at sea, and the first real news since the surrender of Poland was a major embarrassment for England and the Royal Navy, and a great victory for the U Boats.
Scapa Fow off the Orkney Islands in Scotland is one of the great deepwater bays in the world, and since World War I it had been the main base for the Royal Navy's battleships. It was thought to be inpenetrable to attack because of the shoals, reefs, and tricky currents on all but the main entrance, which was of course well guarded.
In October of 1939 a young U-Boat commander named Gunther Prien devised a fantastic and risky gamble: he believed that one U-Boat, operating at night, could maneuver around the shoals and reefs and sneak into the bay undetected. It would be a one time shot only, and it was close to a suicide mission: it would be extremely unlikely even if the U-Boat got in safely to come back out again. The German Admiralty agreed, but because the risk was so great, they asked for volunteers. Prien and his entire crew did so; though he was young, they trusted him as a brilliant commander. (There is another, contradictory story on Wiki that Prien asked for volunteers only once he was in the North Sea, when realistically it would be unlikely for seamen to refuse. I have no idea if this is the correct story, or if what I read earlier was more accurate, so I repeat both here.)
On October 14, the U-47 snuck into Scapa Flow. The trip was long and arduous, but they made it in undetected. There they sighted a British battleship, which turned out to be the Royal Oak (though Prien did not know this) with a crew of 1400. The U-47 fired seven torpedoes at the battleship. Five of them failed to go off (this fact was kept secret by Goebbels, who was to publicize this event- there was a faulty aspect to the detonation systems.) One missed the target altogther. But the second torpedo fired made contact, and blew a 30 foot hole in the ship, causing her to flood and capsize. 833 men were lost.
The other British vessels nearby assumed that explosives mush have gotten loose; they did not concieve that a U-Boat might be in the area, and made no attempt at a search. It was this confusion and subsequent lull that allowed Prien and his crew to make their escape the same way they had come. The U-47 returned to Berlin, where Goebbels trumpeted their arrival, and Hitler had himself photgraphed with Prien. Prien was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. He is believed to have perished with his crew in 1941, when the U-47 went missing without a trace.
The sinking of the Royal Oak left a poor impression of the Royal Navy. Once again, the Nazis seemed invincible, and the British looked old and defeated. Churchill took the blame upon himself, though everyone knew that he could in no way be held responsible for the deterioration of the navy between the wars.
Actually, however, matters were to reverse themselves and very shortly the British would, at sea, win their first victory of the war...
Though the war would be quiet in Western Europe, it was not quiet at sea, and the first real news since the surrender of Poland was a major embarrassment for England and the Royal Navy, and a great victory for the U Boats.
Scapa Fow off the Orkney Islands in Scotland is one of the great deepwater bays in the world, and since World War I it had been the main base for the Royal Navy's battleships. It was thought to be inpenetrable to attack because of the shoals, reefs, and tricky currents on all but the main entrance, which was of course well guarded.
In October of 1939 a young U-Boat commander named Gunther Prien devised a fantastic and risky gamble: he believed that one U-Boat, operating at night, could maneuver around the shoals and reefs and sneak into the bay undetected. It would be a one time shot only, and it was close to a suicide mission: it would be extremely unlikely even if the U-Boat got in safely to come back out again. The German Admiralty agreed, but because the risk was so great, they asked for volunteers. Prien and his entire crew did so; though he was young, they trusted him as a brilliant commander. (There is another, contradictory story on Wiki that Prien asked for volunteers only once he was in the North Sea, when realistically it would be unlikely for seamen to refuse. I have no idea if this is the correct story, or if what I read earlier was more accurate, so I repeat both here.)
On October 14, the U-47 snuck into Scapa Flow. The trip was long and arduous, but they made it in undetected. There they sighted a British battleship, which turned out to be the Royal Oak (though Prien did not know this) with a crew of 1400. The U-47 fired seven torpedoes at the battleship. Five of them failed to go off (this fact was kept secret by Goebbels, who was to publicize this event- there was a faulty aspect to the detonation systems.) One missed the target altogther. But the second torpedo fired made contact, and blew a 30 foot hole in the ship, causing her to flood and capsize. 833 men were lost.
The other British vessels nearby assumed that explosives mush have gotten loose; they did not concieve that a U-Boat might be in the area, and made no attempt at a search. It was this confusion and subsequent lull that allowed Prien and his crew to make their escape the same way they had come. The U-47 returned to Berlin, where Goebbels trumpeted their arrival, and Hitler had himself photgraphed with Prien. Prien was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. He is believed to have perished with his crew in 1941, when the U-47 went missing without a trace.
The sinking of the Royal Oak left a poor impression of the Royal Navy. Once again, the Nazis seemed invincible, and the British looked old and defeated. Churchill took the blame upon himself, though everyone knew that he could in no way be held responsible for the deterioration of the navy between the wars.
Actually, however, matters were to reverse themselves and very shortly the British would, at sea, win their first victory of the war...
timschochet
Footballguy
Ozmandius jumped ahead of me with the description of the Graf Spee battle, which I was going to relate later on. Never mind, he does a fine job of it. Ozy, if you want to describe the very important sequel to that battle (the Altmark and the Cossack) please go right ahead, otherwise I'll do it later on.
timschochet
Footballguy
One thing to add to Ozymandius' narrative: when Captain Ludendorf committed suicide, he did so by wrapping himself in the old imperial flag of Germany, not the Nazi flag. He then shot himself in the head with his luger.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
To understand the Altmark-Cossack incident, which is part of the Graf Spee story, you have to understand something about the British psyche in the dark early days of WW2. Britain had been a maritime power for almost 400 years, and the leading naval power throughout the whole 19th century. Although Britain had had successes on land (Wellington and Waterloo come to mind), and had conquered its way to a world wide empire, that empire was built on the back of the Royal Navy. Germany may have had the Prussian Army, but Britain had the Royal Navy, of which they were justly proud. That's why the incident at Scapa Flow was such a disaster.
The Altmark was a German supply ship that had taken on the British merchant seamen as prisoners when their ships had been sunk by the Graf Spee in the South Atlantic (about 300 seamen). It was returning to Germany in February 1940, making a huge detour through the North Atlantic and coming back through Norwegian territorial waters. The Norwegians boarded the ship on several occasions, but the Germans claimed to be only carrying cargo.
The Royal Navy became aware of the Altmark, knew what she was, and sent in the destroyer Cossack. The Cossack drove the Altmark into a Norwegian fjord, boarded her with fierce hand to hand fighting, and took her crew prisoner. They then opened up the cargo holds and yelled down: "Any British here?" They were rewarded with yells of joy and hope. "Well, they shouted back, The navy's here!"
"The Navy's here!" became a rallying slogan, for the British. The Norwegian and German governments protested that Norway's neutrality had been violated, but the deed was done. It may have had an effect on both the British and German invasions which later followed, both belligerents believing that Norway's neutrality was questionable.
The Cossack had a later distinguished career, participating in the pursuit of the Bismarck, but was sunk by a U-boat later in the war.
The Altmark was a German supply ship that had taken on the British merchant seamen as prisoners when their ships had been sunk by the Graf Spee in the South Atlantic (about 300 seamen). It was returning to Germany in February 1940, making a huge detour through the North Atlantic and coming back through Norwegian territorial waters. The Norwegians boarded the ship on several occasions, but the Germans claimed to be only carrying cargo.
The Royal Navy became aware of the Altmark, knew what she was, and sent in the destroyer Cossack. The Cossack drove the Altmark into a Norwegian fjord, boarded her with fierce hand to hand fighting, and took her crew prisoner. They then opened up the cargo holds and yelled down: "Any British here?" They were rewarded with yells of joy and hope. "Well, they shouted back, The navy's here!"
"The Navy's here!" became a rallying slogan, for the British. The Norwegian and German governments protested that Norway's neutrality had been violated, but the deed was done. It may have had an effect on both the British and German invasions which later followed, both belligerents believing that Norway's neutrality was questionable.
The Cossack had a later distinguished career, participating in the pursuit of the Bismarck, but was sunk by a U-boat later in the war.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Great job, Ozy! Per Shirer, the Altmark outraged Hitler and made him decide to invade Norway, which he had been hesitating over. Before we get to that tale, we need to discuss the story of Finland and the Soviet Union, which I will try to do this evening (unless anyone else wants to take a shot!)
JerseyToughGuys
Tough Guy
Redwes25
Footballguy
The Winter War
While Germany and the West were sitting Stalin was moving forward with the implementation of the rest of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. The pact not only carved up Poland but the rest of Eastern Europe between Germany and Russia. The Soviets seized the Baltic states in the fall of 1939 and then in June 1940 seized Bessarabia from Romania. But to take a step back, one area that was part of the Russian sphere of influence according the pact was Finland and Stalin was intent on seizing it.
In October 1939 just weeks after the fall of Poland, Molotov asked Finland for a number of land concessions including land on the Karelian Isthmus such that the Mannerheim Line would be in Soviet hands. The Mannerheim Line was a fortified area between Finland and Lennigrad and giving up the defenses made it an easy walk into Finland for the soviet’s it was an impossible concession. In exchange for this and other land concessions the Finns would receive practically un-habited land in Russia. When the Finns refused the on November 26, 2959 the Soviets shelled their own village and blamed the Finns and the war begin 4 days later.
The Soviet’s had assumed the war would last two weeks as they brought what appeared to be overwhelming numbers to the conflict including over 300,000 troops. The Finns on the other hand didn’t even have over 100 armed vehicles and its air force consisted of only 400 or so obsolete aircraft. The Finns were so ill-equipped that one of their most effective anti-tank weapons was a bottle filled with Gasoline which would be forever named the Molotov Cocktail by the Finns. What should have been a push over wasn’t and the Soviets attacked head on in an disor-ganized and piecemeal fashion and suffered shockingly heavy losses and were unable to pierce the Mannerheim Line or the other Finnish defenses in the first month of fighting.
What caused this debacle was none other than the Stalin’s purges of the army which resulted in the imprisonment or execution of over 30,000 officers, which included 3 of 5 field marshals, all commanders of military districts, 14 of 16 army commanders, 60 of 67 corps commanders , 136 of 199 division commanders, 221 of 397 brigade commander and 50 percent of regimental commanders. Another 10,000 officers were forced to resign. I will cover the purges in a greater extent in another post to truly explain what happened to the Russian army. The purges also resulted in political commissars being placed in charge of army officers.
The Soviets quickly responded in early 1940 with additional forces and reorganized the army and renewed the offensive. The Russian force in the early 1940 offensive numbered over 600,000. They were able to pierce the Mannerheim line at the battle of Summa and the Finns were forced to seek peace. The Russian gained a buffer for Leningrad which was their goal all along but at a huge cost as Molotov admitted to almost 200,000 casualties including over 48,000 killed. The real loses were undoubtedly higher....
While Germany and the West were sitting Stalin was moving forward with the implementation of the rest of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. The pact not only carved up Poland but the rest of Eastern Europe between Germany and Russia. The Soviets seized the Baltic states in the fall of 1939 and then in June 1940 seized Bessarabia from Romania. But to take a step back, one area that was part of the Russian sphere of influence according the pact was Finland and Stalin was intent on seizing it.
In October 1939 just weeks after the fall of Poland, Molotov asked Finland for a number of land concessions including land on the Karelian Isthmus such that the Mannerheim Line would be in Soviet hands. The Mannerheim Line was a fortified area between Finland and Lennigrad and giving up the defenses made it an easy walk into Finland for the soviet’s it was an impossible concession. In exchange for this and other land concessions the Finns would receive practically un-habited land in Russia. When the Finns refused the on November 26, 2959 the Soviets shelled their own village and blamed the Finns and the war begin 4 days later.
The Soviet’s had assumed the war would last two weeks as they brought what appeared to be overwhelming numbers to the conflict including over 300,000 troops. The Finns on the other hand didn’t even have over 100 armed vehicles and its air force consisted of only 400 or so obsolete aircraft. The Finns were so ill-equipped that one of their most effective anti-tank weapons was a bottle filled with Gasoline which would be forever named the Molotov Cocktail by the Finns. What should have been a push over wasn’t and the Soviets attacked head on in an disor-ganized and piecemeal fashion and suffered shockingly heavy losses and were unable to pierce the Mannerheim Line or the other Finnish defenses in the first month of fighting.
What caused this debacle was none other than the Stalin’s purges of the army which resulted in the imprisonment or execution of over 30,000 officers, which included 3 of 5 field marshals, all commanders of military districts, 14 of 16 army commanders, 60 of 67 corps commanders , 136 of 199 division commanders, 221 of 397 brigade commander and 50 percent of regimental commanders. Another 10,000 officers were forced to resign. I will cover the purges in a greater extent in another post to truly explain what happened to the Russian army. The purges also resulted in political commissars being placed in charge of army officers.
The Soviets quickly responded in early 1940 with additional forces and reorganized the army and renewed the offensive. The Russian force in the early 1940 offensive numbered over 600,000. They were able to pierce the Mannerheim line at the battle of Summa and the Finns were forced to seek peace. The Russian gained a buffer for Leningrad which was their goal all along but at a huge cost as Molotov admitted to almost 200,000 casualties including over 48,000 killed. The real loses were undoubtedly higher....
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timschochet
Footballguy
The Finnish stand against the Soviets was incredibly heroic. The story is they did much of their damage effectively on skis, but this may be apocryphal. Finland was greatly admired in the United States because they were the only nation that paid their World War I war debt in full.
In England, Churchill had long been proposing an occupation of the port of Narvik in Norway to impede German iron ore, but it had been rejected by the supreme war council. He had also proposed mining the harbors of Norway, and this was accepted, in part. With the Winter War, Chamberlain reversed his position and agreed that plans could be made to occupy Norway- he was thinking of aiding Finland. Unfortunately, it was too late.
In France, the fall of Finland caused the demise of Daladier, who was replaced by Reynard, a more "Churchill like figure." Daladier stayed in the cabinet, and prevented Reynard from doing most of what he wanted, especially the removal of the incompetent Gamelin. Reynard was still attempting parliamentary maneuvers to have Gamelin replaced when Norway and Denmark were attacked by Germany, which ended the Phoney War.
During this same period prior to the invasion of Norway, Chamberlain gave a speech in Birmingham, which would haunt him for the rest of his life. He mocked the Germans for not attacking during the lull following Poland, and suggested that now it would be impossible for the Nazis to win. He said, "Hitler has missed the bus."
In England, Churchill had long been proposing an occupation of the port of Narvik in Norway to impede German iron ore, but it had been rejected by the supreme war council. He had also proposed mining the harbors of Norway, and this was accepted, in part. With the Winter War, Chamberlain reversed his position and agreed that plans could be made to occupy Norway- he was thinking of aiding Finland. Unfortunately, it was too late.
In France, the fall of Finland caused the demise of Daladier, who was replaced by Reynard, a more "Churchill like figure." Daladier stayed in the cabinet, and prevented Reynard from doing most of what he wanted, especially the removal of the incompetent Gamelin. Reynard was still attempting parliamentary maneuvers to have Gamelin replaced when Norway and Denmark were attacked by Germany, which ended the Phoney War.
During this same period prior to the invasion of Norway, Chamberlain gave a speech in Birmingham, which would haunt him for the rest of his life. He mocked the Germans for not attacking during the lull following Poland, and suggested that now it would be impossible for the Nazis to win. He said, "Hitler has missed the bus."
Redwes25
Footballguy
This is true in the Northern portion of Finland where there were few roads and ski mounted units in the heavily wooded areas of Finland in the dead of winter were effective. On the main front on Karelian Isthmus the fighting was more traditional behind fortifications. Calling the fighting heroic is an understatement given how heavily outgunned the Finns were.
timschochet
Footballguy
We have now arrived at the end of the Phony War and the start of the Norway campaign. At this point the war opened up to a much greater level of events, sometimes on a day to day or even hour to hour basis, and this would continue basically until the war ended. I will do my best to relate what I know, but hopefully other people will continue to add to this narrative.
timschochet
Footballguy
Norway Part One
As I have written, the war between Russia and Finland caused Chamberlain to agree to mine Norwegian harbors and occupy Narvik, a port in Northern Norway where Germany's iron ore was shipped through. Plans were set for an occupation to begin on April 8. It should be noted here that this occupation was not being planned with the consent of Norway, a neutral state. This issue was raised as a defense by German Generals at Nuremberg in defense of their own actions. The judges at Nuremberg ruled that the British and French had only planned on occupying Norway to defend her from attack. However, this remains a very sticky issue.
Meanwhile, unaware of the British plans, Hitler had changed his mind as a result of the Altmark and had decided to invade Norway himself. He assigned a general named Falkenhorst to this task, and also met with a Norwegian Fascist named Verduk Quisling who convinced him that the people of Norway really wanted fascism. The plan was set for April 9. However, because the Germans moved faster than the British and French, they beat them in a photo finish.
Denmark was invaded first. The Danes, under orders of King Christian, did not resist with it's small army, and German tanks rolled through Denmark on their way to Norway unhindered. The Danish people were doomed to suffer for the next five years under a barbarous regime.
Norway was a little different. The Germans sent a flotilla of battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and troop transports and right under the nose of the British forces put thousands of men ashore- one force in Oslo the capital, and the other to take Narvik and Trondheim, an important city south of Narvik. At Oslo, the old fortress opened fire and sank the battle cruiser Blucher- the Germans lost 1,000 dead. (These men faced two horrible alternatives when it came to dying: either sink in the freezing waters, or be burned alive by the blazing fires on deck. Most chose to drown.)
Meanwhile, King Haakon, who was Christian's brother, grabbed all of the gold in the Norwegian treasury and fled Oslo. At this point the German soldiers occupied the radio station, and Quisling declared himself the new prime minister. This act of treachery so angered the Norwegians that they were determined to try to resist against great odds.
The British had superior ships at sea, yet they were completely surprised by this sudden, lightning attack by the Germans. However, they now quickly attempted to respond.
As I have written, the war between Russia and Finland caused Chamberlain to agree to mine Norwegian harbors and occupy Narvik, a port in Northern Norway where Germany's iron ore was shipped through. Plans were set for an occupation to begin on April 8. It should be noted here that this occupation was not being planned with the consent of Norway, a neutral state. This issue was raised as a defense by German Generals at Nuremberg in defense of their own actions. The judges at Nuremberg ruled that the British and French had only planned on occupying Norway to defend her from attack. However, this remains a very sticky issue.
Meanwhile, unaware of the British plans, Hitler had changed his mind as a result of the Altmark and had decided to invade Norway himself. He assigned a general named Falkenhorst to this task, and also met with a Norwegian Fascist named Verduk Quisling who convinced him that the people of Norway really wanted fascism. The plan was set for April 9. However, because the Germans moved faster than the British and French, they beat them in a photo finish.
Denmark was invaded first. The Danes, under orders of King Christian, did not resist with it's small army, and German tanks rolled through Denmark on their way to Norway unhindered. The Danish people were doomed to suffer for the next five years under a barbarous regime.
Norway was a little different. The Germans sent a flotilla of battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and troop transports and right under the nose of the British forces put thousands of men ashore- one force in Oslo the capital, and the other to take Narvik and Trondheim, an important city south of Narvik. At Oslo, the old fortress opened fire and sank the battle cruiser Blucher- the Germans lost 1,000 dead. (These men faced two horrible alternatives when it came to dying: either sink in the freezing waters, or be burned alive by the blazing fires on deck. Most chose to drown.)
Meanwhile, King Haakon, who was Christian's brother, grabbed all of the gold in the Norwegian treasury and fled Oslo. At this point the German soldiers occupied the radio station, and Quisling declared himself the new prime minister. This act of treachery so angered the Norwegians that they were determined to try to resist against great odds.
The British had superior ships at sea, yet they were completely surprised by this sudden, lightning attack by the Germans. However, they now quickly attempted to respond.
timschochet
Footballguy
Norway Part Two
Captain B.A.W. Warburton-Lee, in command of five British destroyers, appeared off Narvik, unaware that the Germans were there in strength. A Norwegian pilot warned them that there were 10 German destroyers inside the harbor, along with transport troops. Warburton-Lee signalled the Admiralty that he would immediately attack, despite the fact that he was outnumbered. He entered the harbor, sank two destroyers and 6 merchant ships. Warburton-Lee was killed in this action, and two of his destroyers were sunk.
Three days later the battleship Warspite (30,000 tons) entered the harbor leading nine more British destroyers. This time they sank everything in sight. It was a great risk they were taking, because it was very dangerous for such a heavy warship to enter such shallow waters. German U-Boats fired hundreds of torpedoes at this flotilla, and everyone of them missed- this turned out to be the same torpedo malfunction which had first surfaced at Scapa Flow. In frustration and anger, Karl Doenitz (the Reich's Admiral at the head of U-Boat Command) ordered all U-Boats to return to base. However, their presence, along with airplanes overhead scared off the British, who retreated. Had they stayed, they could have easily destroyed all the Nazi troops on Narvik. Their failure meant disaster for the British effort.
And here for the first time appeared a sign of the panicky Hitler that would come to damage so many future German operations. With the news of the 2nd British flotilla, he ordered Narvik to be abandoned. Worse, he ran around German headquarters screaming "We are beaten! We are betrayed!" Keitel and Jodl calmed him down, and convinced him to rescind the order. But Jodl noted Hitler's shakiness in his diary and wondered if it would be a sign of things to come. It would.
Despite the British leaving before the job was done, they had succeeded in destroying 4 out of 5 German capital ships, along with half of their destroyer force. A few months later when the Germans contemplated an invasion of England, these ships would be badly missed; their presence might have made a significant difference.
The Royal Navy's failure at Narvik was a result of the Admiralty still not grasping the importance of air power. They left their few aircraft carriers back at Scapa Flow and sent their battleships, which were now antiquated. The commanders were cautious, not wanting to risk planes or U-Boats. A cautious weapon is no weapon at all. Perhaps if the brave Warburton-Lee had been in command of the 2nd flotilla, rather than the first, the result might have been different. But the fault also lies with Churchill and the sea lords, who still clung to old fashioned ways of fighting in a new era.
It would now be up to British and French armies to try and take Narvik back and possibly liberate Norway before it was too late...
Captain B.A.W. Warburton-Lee, in command of five British destroyers, appeared off Narvik, unaware that the Germans were there in strength. A Norwegian pilot warned them that there were 10 German destroyers inside the harbor, along with transport troops. Warburton-Lee signalled the Admiralty that he would immediately attack, despite the fact that he was outnumbered. He entered the harbor, sank two destroyers and 6 merchant ships. Warburton-Lee was killed in this action, and two of his destroyers were sunk.
Three days later the battleship Warspite (30,000 tons) entered the harbor leading nine more British destroyers. This time they sank everything in sight. It was a great risk they were taking, because it was very dangerous for such a heavy warship to enter such shallow waters. German U-Boats fired hundreds of torpedoes at this flotilla, and everyone of them missed- this turned out to be the same torpedo malfunction which had first surfaced at Scapa Flow. In frustration and anger, Karl Doenitz (the Reich's Admiral at the head of U-Boat Command) ordered all U-Boats to return to base. However, their presence, along with airplanes overhead scared off the British, who retreated. Had they stayed, they could have easily destroyed all the Nazi troops on Narvik. Their failure meant disaster for the British effort.
And here for the first time appeared a sign of the panicky Hitler that would come to damage so many future German operations. With the news of the 2nd British flotilla, he ordered Narvik to be abandoned. Worse, he ran around German headquarters screaming "We are beaten! We are betrayed!" Keitel and Jodl calmed him down, and convinced him to rescind the order. But Jodl noted Hitler's shakiness in his diary and wondered if it would be a sign of things to come. It would.
Despite the British leaving before the job was done, they had succeeded in destroying 4 out of 5 German capital ships, along with half of their destroyer force. A few months later when the Germans contemplated an invasion of England, these ships would be badly missed; their presence might have made a significant difference.
The Royal Navy's failure at Narvik was a result of the Admiralty still not grasping the importance of air power. They left their few aircraft carriers back at Scapa Flow and sent their battleships, which were now antiquated. The commanders were cautious, not wanting to risk planes or U-Boats. A cautious weapon is no weapon at all. Perhaps if the brave Warburton-Lee had been in command of the 2nd flotilla, rather than the first, the result might have been different. But the fault also lies with Churchill and the sea lords, who still clung to old fashioned ways of fighting in a new era.
It would now be up to British and French armies to try and take Narvik back and possibly liberate Norway before it was too late...
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TwinTurbo
Footballguy
Great thread. I remember having late night discussions on this topic with my dad who was a history teacher.
The Eastern front is the part that really gets me. It was the largest and bloodiest theatre of WWII and the stage of the most brutal, merciless combat and war atrocities in history as the two most evil leaders of all time, Stalin and Hitler, both disregarded human life in their pursuit of victory. If only Hitler would have listened to his generals. Stalin matched Hitler mistake for mistake but was able to make the necessary adjustments in strategy and command structure before it was too late.
The Eastern front is the part that really gets me. It was the largest and bloodiest theatre of WWII and the stage of the most brutal, merciless combat and war atrocities in history as the two most evil leaders of all time, Stalin and Hitler, both disregarded human life in their pursuit of victory. If only Hitler would have listened to his generals. Stalin matched Hitler mistake for mistake but was able to make the necessary adjustments in strategy and command structure before it was too late.
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John Maddens Lunchbox
Footballguy
I'd like to see some proof of this.timschochet said:
Liek many, Gandhi didn't know the true extent of Hitler when he said the following:
He remained consistent on his positions of war, on both sides. Non Violenece was his solution. He even believed mass suicides were a way out to avoid the violence.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Thanks for clarifying that, JML. My offhand reference to Gandhi was based not on any of the books I am using for resources, but on a documentary I saw on TV that also mentioned this in an offhand way. I had no quotes one way or the other. Gandhi is not someone whom I know a ton about, so I appreciate the correction.
timschochet
Footballguy
Norway Part Three
To understand the British and French counterattack in Norway, a map would be helpful. Since I don't have one to link to, I'll just explain that the key port of Narvik (where the German iron ore was transhipped) was far to the North, while several hundred miles south was Trondheim, a more major Norweigan city, closer to Oslo. The Supreme War Council in London could not decide whether the goal was to liberate Narvik or Trondheim. Churchill, with his eye on the ore, insisted on Narvik. But by this time King Haakon had fled from Oslo, and he was pushing for Trondheim as a means to liberate all of Norway. The Council overruled Churchill and it was decided to send two divisions to liberate Trondheim. However, at the last second Churchill countermanded the orders and divided the force up so that half the troops were sent to Narvik. This meant that neither force would be strong enough to take their objective.
The Allies plan for Trondheim was to land above and below the city, and then attack from both sides in a pincer movement. On the south side, the commanders landed in one place and their troops in another. There were no field telephones; these had somehow been sent to the Narvik expedition by mistake. Ammunition for the mortar guns had been forgotten and left behind in London because of the quickness of the action. The British were supposed to link up with the Norwegian army, but they failed to distinguish these from the Germans, and there were several instances of friendly fire. Their antitank shells were unable to penetrate German armor. The result was hundreds of troops were annihilated, and hundreds more were captured and flown to Berlin, where Hitler showed them off to the public and in newsreels.
If anything the situation on the north side of Trondheim was worse: the British had no skis. The French had skis, but the wrong straps for their boots, and the supply ship the French had outfitted was too large to enter the harbor. The Luftwaffe attacked from the sky, and these troops were unable to move forward. At last on May 1, the Allies called a halt to the Trondheim operation and withdrew all surviving forces. Germany was now in firm control of southern and central Norway.
The British commander at Narvik was General Macksey; he was one of those very cautious commanders who only move when there is a decisive military advantage, and then very reluctantly. His forces were built up to 25,000 men- British, Polish, Norwegian, and soldiers of the French foreign legion- facing 2,000 Austrian alpine troops and 2,000 German sailors already in Narvik commanded by General Dietl, cut off from the Germans in the rest of Norway. Dietl brilliantly used the terrain and his position in defense, but was ready to evacuate by railroad at any time. Because Macksey moved so slowly, it took the entire month of May for the Allies to actually enter Narvik, at which point Dietl, his men starving (and 800 already dead) fled. But within a week of the allies occupying Narvik, they abruptly abandoned the city- at that point the battle of France and the Low Countries had begun, and the forces were needed elsewhere.
All of Norway was in German hands. The counterattack had been a complete and utter debacle, and this would have severe consequences on the British war effort. By the first week of May journalists were already reporting the sad news to the British public, and they were outraged: troops without skis? Complete and utter disorganization? Parliament insisted on a debate of the British actions. It would prove to be the most consequential meeting of the House of Commons in British history.
To understand the British and French counterattack in Norway, a map would be helpful. Since I don't have one to link to, I'll just explain that the key port of Narvik (where the German iron ore was transhipped) was far to the North, while several hundred miles south was Trondheim, a more major Norweigan city, closer to Oslo. The Supreme War Council in London could not decide whether the goal was to liberate Narvik or Trondheim. Churchill, with his eye on the ore, insisted on Narvik. But by this time King Haakon had fled from Oslo, and he was pushing for Trondheim as a means to liberate all of Norway. The Council overruled Churchill and it was decided to send two divisions to liberate Trondheim. However, at the last second Churchill countermanded the orders and divided the force up so that half the troops were sent to Narvik. This meant that neither force would be strong enough to take their objective.
The Allies plan for Trondheim was to land above and below the city, and then attack from both sides in a pincer movement. On the south side, the commanders landed in one place and their troops in another. There were no field telephones; these had somehow been sent to the Narvik expedition by mistake. Ammunition for the mortar guns had been forgotten and left behind in London because of the quickness of the action. The British were supposed to link up with the Norwegian army, but they failed to distinguish these from the Germans, and there were several instances of friendly fire. Their antitank shells were unable to penetrate German armor. The result was hundreds of troops were annihilated, and hundreds more were captured and flown to Berlin, where Hitler showed them off to the public and in newsreels.
If anything the situation on the north side of Trondheim was worse: the British had no skis. The French had skis, but the wrong straps for their boots, and the supply ship the French had outfitted was too large to enter the harbor. The Luftwaffe attacked from the sky, and these troops were unable to move forward. At last on May 1, the Allies called a halt to the Trondheim operation and withdrew all surviving forces. Germany was now in firm control of southern and central Norway.
The British commander at Narvik was General Macksey; he was one of those very cautious commanders who only move when there is a decisive military advantage, and then very reluctantly. His forces were built up to 25,000 men- British, Polish, Norwegian, and soldiers of the French foreign legion- facing 2,000 Austrian alpine troops and 2,000 German sailors already in Narvik commanded by General Dietl, cut off from the Germans in the rest of Norway. Dietl brilliantly used the terrain and his position in defense, but was ready to evacuate by railroad at any time. Because Macksey moved so slowly, it took the entire month of May for the Allies to actually enter Narvik, at which point Dietl, his men starving (and 800 already dead) fled. But within a week of the allies occupying Narvik, they abruptly abandoned the city- at that point the battle of France and the Low Countries had begun, and the forces were needed elsewhere.
All of Norway was in German hands. The counterattack had been a complete and utter debacle, and this would have severe consequences on the British war effort. By the first week of May journalists were already reporting the sad news to the British public, and they were outraged: troops without skis? Complete and utter disorganization? Parliament insisted on a debate of the British actions. It would prove to be the most consequential meeting of the House of Commons in British history.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Great Debate
On May 7, the debate over the Norway fiasco began in the House of Commons. Chamberlain's enemies were determined to replace him before the war was truly lost. Actually the blame for Norway could have been just as easily blamed on Churchill as Chamberlain. It was Churchill who sent the navy to attack without aircraft carriers. It was Churchill who had, at the last second, taken half of the forces meant for Trondheim and moved them to Narvik. In 1915, a similar situation in the Dardanelles and Gallilpoli had caused Herbert Asquith (then the Prime Minister) to make Churchill the fall guy.
On the other hand, Churchill could not be blamed for the calamity of strategic miscalculations that had but England in this dire situation in the first place. That lay at the hands of Chamberlain. Had he followed Churchill's advice in September and October, Norway might even now be in British hands. And if Chamberlain had followed Churchill's advice during the years when Hitler got away with so much, history might have been re-written. Englishmen knew that for all his faults, Churchill was a man suited for war. Chamberlain not so much.
Sir Roger Keyes, a naval hero of the First World War, was the initial speaker. Dressed in full battle uniform, his medals and ribbons shining, he denounced the conduct of the war but managed to exonerate Churchill. Then Leo Amery stood. The old man, bitter and angry, quoted Oliver Cromwell's famous speech when, three centuries earlier, he had dismissed the Long Parliament:
You have sat here too long for any good you might be doing. Depart I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, Go!
There was a roar of approval, and for the first time, Chamberlain knew he was in trouble. After two days of further attacks, he rose to defend himself, and the House mocked him: "Missed the bus!" several shouted. Chamberlain asked Churchill to close for the government.
This was one of those ironic moments in his life that Churchill so relished. For 40 years he had sought to be Prime Minister. Now, he truly believed that only if he was made Prime Minister could England be saved. All he had to do was be silent, or make a weak or self-excusing argument, and the title would be his. Yet it was not in his nature to do so. He was being asked by his main opponent throughout the decade past to defend him, to give reasons why Chamberlain should remain in office, and like a debator who is asked to switch sides, he did so. He enjoyed himself immensely, and actually delivered a magnificent defense of Neville Chamberlain.
However, it wasn't enough. The House divided in favor of the government's position, but only by 81 votes. This was not enough for Chamberlain to stay in office. He knew he had to resign. He considered asking the King to name Lord Halifax prime minister rather than Churchill.
At this point, we have a historical quandary. All of this took place on May 10, 1940, the same day that France and the Low Countries were invaded. According to Churchill's account, Chamberlain met with him and Halifax, and the latter deferred to Churchill based on the fact that as a Lord, he would have trouble with the House of Commons. However, according to several other historians, Chamberlain contacted the Labor party, because he wanted a coalition government, and they replied they would serve under Churchill, but not Halifax. According to Keith Feeling, Chamberlain's biographer, the news that Belgium was being invaded caused Chamberlain to insist that he should still remain in power until the crisis was over, but Churchill warned him that he, Churchill, would resign if this happened, which would create an anarchic situation.
We still have no idea which of these stories is exactly true. Churchill's version is the one that has come to be accepted in most history books, along with movies and novels. Whatever the case, by that evening, Churchill was Prime Minister, and he addressed the House of Commons:
I would say to the House, as I said to those who have joined this government: "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat."
We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I can say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival. Let that be realised; no survival for the British Empire, no survival for all that the British Empire has stood for, no survival for the urge and impulse of the ages, that mankind will move forward towards its goal. But I take up my task with buoyancy and hope. I feel sure that our cause will not be suffered to fail among men. At this time I feel entitled to claim the aid of all, and I say, "come then, let us go forward together with our united strength."
This speech was later repeated word for word on the BBC, and also in America, where it had a terrific effect.
On May 7, the debate over the Norway fiasco began in the House of Commons. Chamberlain's enemies were determined to replace him before the war was truly lost. Actually the blame for Norway could have been just as easily blamed on Churchill as Chamberlain. It was Churchill who sent the navy to attack without aircraft carriers. It was Churchill who had, at the last second, taken half of the forces meant for Trondheim and moved them to Narvik. In 1915, a similar situation in the Dardanelles and Gallilpoli had caused Herbert Asquith (then the Prime Minister) to make Churchill the fall guy.
On the other hand, Churchill could not be blamed for the calamity of strategic miscalculations that had but England in this dire situation in the first place. That lay at the hands of Chamberlain. Had he followed Churchill's advice in September and October, Norway might even now be in British hands. And if Chamberlain had followed Churchill's advice during the years when Hitler got away with so much, history might have been re-written. Englishmen knew that for all his faults, Churchill was a man suited for war. Chamberlain not so much.
Sir Roger Keyes, a naval hero of the First World War, was the initial speaker. Dressed in full battle uniform, his medals and ribbons shining, he denounced the conduct of the war but managed to exonerate Churchill. Then Leo Amery stood. The old man, bitter and angry, quoted Oliver Cromwell's famous speech when, three centuries earlier, he had dismissed the Long Parliament:
You have sat here too long for any good you might be doing. Depart I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, Go!
There was a roar of approval, and for the first time, Chamberlain knew he was in trouble. After two days of further attacks, he rose to defend himself, and the House mocked him: "Missed the bus!" several shouted. Chamberlain asked Churchill to close for the government.
This was one of those ironic moments in his life that Churchill so relished. For 40 years he had sought to be Prime Minister. Now, he truly believed that only if he was made Prime Minister could England be saved. All he had to do was be silent, or make a weak or self-excusing argument, and the title would be his. Yet it was not in his nature to do so. He was being asked by his main opponent throughout the decade past to defend him, to give reasons why Chamberlain should remain in office, and like a debator who is asked to switch sides, he did so. He enjoyed himself immensely, and actually delivered a magnificent defense of Neville Chamberlain.
However, it wasn't enough. The House divided in favor of the government's position, but only by 81 votes. This was not enough for Chamberlain to stay in office. He knew he had to resign. He considered asking the King to name Lord Halifax prime minister rather than Churchill.
At this point, we have a historical quandary. All of this took place on May 10, 1940, the same day that France and the Low Countries were invaded. According to Churchill's account, Chamberlain met with him and Halifax, and the latter deferred to Churchill based on the fact that as a Lord, he would have trouble with the House of Commons. However, according to several other historians, Chamberlain contacted the Labor party, because he wanted a coalition government, and they replied they would serve under Churchill, but not Halifax. According to Keith Feeling, Chamberlain's biographer, the news that Belgium was being invaded caused Chamberlain to insist that he should still remain in power until the crisis was over, but Churchill warned him that he, Churchill, would resign if this happened, which would create an anarchic situation.
We still have no idea which of these stories is exactly true. Churchill's version is the one that has come to be accepted in most history books, along with movies and novels. Whatever the case, by that evening, Churchill was Prime Minister, and he addressed the House of Commons:
I would say to the House, as I said to those who have joined this government: "I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat."
We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind. We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I can say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us; to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, what is our aim? I can answer in one word: It is victory, victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival. Let that be realised; no survival for the British Empire, no survival for all that the British Empire has stood for, no survival for the urge and impulse of the ages, that mankind will move forward towards its goal. But I take up my task with buoyancy and hope. I feel sure that our cause will not be suffered to fail among men. At this time I feel entitled to claim the aid of all, and I say, "come then, let us go forward together with our united strength."
This speech was later repeated word for word on the BBC, and also in America, where it had a terrific effect.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Hope you guys are still enjoying this as much as I am. We next turn to the invasion of Belgium, Holland, and France, but that is going to take a lot of telling. Before we get there, we need to look at a little history of the First World War, and also the various strategies of the two opposing sides. I will try to get to the beginning of this a little later today, but if anyone else wants to start or add some additional commentary to the battles already discussed, please do so.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Two comments.
First, I have heard from various sources (but I cannot confirm them), that King George VI actually contacted Lord Halifax to consult with him about forming a government. Lord Halifax reputedly said that in his opinion, the only man that the British people would accept was Winston Churchill.
The second is that if Hitler was the greatest orator in the German language, he met his match in Churchill, for the English language. In one short paragraph, he laid out the difficulties, yet he was able to embody the fighting spirit of the Brits in such a way so as to rally the nation behind him. An extraordinary speech, to be followed by others, equally as great.
First, I have heard from various sources (but I cannot confirm them), that King George VI actually contacted Lord Halifax to consult with him about forming a government. Lord Halifax reputedly said that in his opinion, the only man that the British people would accept was Winston Churchill.
The second is that if Hitler was the greatest orator in the German language, he met his match in Churchill, for the English language. In one short paragraph, he laid out the difficulties, yet he was able to embody the fighting spirit of the Brits in such a way so as to rally the nation behind him. An extraordinary speech, to be followed by others, equally as great.
timschochet
Footballguy
The British and French plans to defend Western Europe
During World War I, the Belgians were led by Albert, a great hero and warrior king, who fought with his men, slept in tents with them, and was a great symbol of defiance. His bravery slowed the German march towards Paris and gave the French the breathing spell they needed for a defense at the Marne, which turned the tide of that war in it's initial stages. (For anyone who is interested in a detailed account of Albert's stand, I highly recommend The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman.)
Albert had been dead for 5 years, and his son, Leopold III, was of a quite different sort. He believed Belgium would be protected from the growing conflict by adhering to a strict neutrality. The fact that Germany had broken Belgian neutrality in 1914 seems to have escaped him. He absolutely refused to allow any British or French troops into his country, or even to consult with them regarding a joint defense. Queen Wilhelmina of Holland joined Leopold in this foolishness.
This restriction created a great quandary for the allies. As I have explained, they had the defense of the Maginot line running across the southern France border. It stopped at the Ardennes forest, which was considered inpenetrable. North of that was Luxemborg, then Belgium. It was apparent to the French war planners that Belgium was the weak spot in their defenses. With the Maginot line in place, what would keep the Germans from invading across the lowlands? The answer of course, was a joint defense of Belgium, but this went out the window when Leopold declared strict neutrality.
Therefore, Gamelin and the other planners reached an alternative solution: they would simply have to wait until the Germans actually invaded Belgium. At that point, the French and British would leap into Belgium and meet the invader head on. It seemed a simple plan, and not much of a gamble: after all, where else could the Germans invade?
Where else, indeed?
During the months of the Phony War, the British Expeditionary Force reached it's full strength of over 300, 000 men situated on the French/Belgian border, ready to carry out the plan of leaping into Belgium when the battle started. It's commander, General Sir Alan Brooke, was dismayed by the French forces he was working with. He wrote in his diary:
Never have I seen anything more slovenly or badly turned out. Men unshaven, horses ungroomed, clothes and saddlery that did not fit, vehicles dirty, and complete lack of pride in themselves or their units. What shook me most, however, was the look in the men's faces, disgruntled and insubordinate looks, and, although ordered to give "Eyes left", hardly a man bothered to do so.
The French were as ready as they would ever be for the battle to come...
During World War I, the Belgians were led by Albert, a great hero and warrior king, who fought with his men, slept in tents with them, and was a great symbol of defiance. His bravery slowed the German march towards Paris and gave the French the breathing spell they needed for a defense at the Marne, which turned the tide of that war in it's initial stages. (For anyone who is interested in a detailed account of Albert's stand, I highly recommend The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman.)
Albert had been dead for 5 years, and his son, Leopold III, was of a quite different sort. He believed Belgium would be protected from the growing conflict by adhering to a strict neutrality. The fact that Germany had broken Belgian neutrality in 1914 seems to have escaped him. He absolutely refused to allow any British or French troops into his country, or even to consult with them regarding a joint defense. Queen Wilhelmina of Holland joined Leopold in this foolishness.
This restriction created a great quandary for the allies. As I have explained, they had the defense of the Maginot line running across the southern France border. It stopped at the Ardennes forest, which was considered inpenetrable. North of that was Luxemborg, then Belgium. It was apparent to the French war planners that Belgium was the weak spot in their defenses. With the Maginot line in place, what would keep the Germans from invading across the lowlands? The answer of course, was a joint defense of Belgium, but this went out the window when Leopold declared strict neutrality.
Therefore, Gamelin and the other planners reached an alternative solution: they would simply have to wait until the Germans actually invaded Belgium. At that point, the French and British would leap into Belgium and meet the invader head on. It seemed a simple plan, and not much of a gamble: after all, where else could the Germans invade?
Where else, indeed?
During the months of the Phony War, the British Expeditionary Force reached it's full strength of over 300, 000 men situated on the French/Belgian border, ready to carry out the plan of leaping into Belgium when the battle started. It's commander, General Sir Alan Brooke, was dismayed by the French forces he was working with. He wrote in his diary:
Never have I seen anything more slovenly or badly turned out. Men unshaven, horses ungroomed, clothes and saddlery that did not fit, vehicles dirty, and complete lack of pride in themselves or their units. What shook me most, however, was the look in the men's faces, disgruntled and insubordinate looks, and, although ordered to give "Eyes left", hardly a man bothered to do so.
The French were as ready as they would ever be for the battle to come...
timschochet
Footballguy
The German Attack Plan
The German General Staff was perhaps the finest group of military strategists in all of history. They easily defeated the French in 1870, and this influenced their thinking about France ever since. In the 1890's, Count Alfred von Schlieffen designed a plan for a quick conquest of France in the event of a two front war. It called for an invasion through Belgium and the Netherlands and a then a sweep of forces quickly towards Paris. Schlieffen, however, thought it was extremely important to the success of this plan to invade both Belgium AND Holland- otherwise the foe could circle around northwards and attack the right flank. His actual dying words were supposedly "Guard the right flank!"
His successor, Von Moltke, dismissed this idea as too costly, preferring the speed of only going through Belgium. He modified the plan to exclude Holland, and therefore the plan that was actually used in 1914 should have been called "The Von Moltke Plan". It very nearly succeeded.
By January of 1940, the Germans had massed over two million men on the borders of France, Belgium and Holland. The plan for attack was basically a reprise of the Schlieffin plan, this time through all three low countries. This was exactly what the Allies anticipated, and might have resulted in a cataclysmic struggle in Belgium had it been carried through. However, that same month the British and French received copies of the German battle plans as a result of a crash landing by a German plane in Belgium. This fact caused Hitler to panic and postpone the attack. Later, he postponed it again until Norway was conquered.
Meanwhile, Lt General Erich von Manstein, considered one of the most brilliant strategic minds of the German army, proceeded to prove it now. The Ardennes was considered inpenetrable, he reasoned. But if you moved armor through it, it would be hidden from above, would it not? Manstein devised a plan where the Germans would feint in Belgium and Holland, in order to get the British and French to place their forces their. Meanwhile the main German thrust would be through the Ardennes. Once they broke through the thin French defenses there, they would effectively cut off all of the British and French troops, trapping them. In one quick stroke, the battle would be won for Germany.
It took some time for Manstein's plan to reach Hitler's attention. For more conservative cheif such as Halder and Brauschitsch, it was far too risky a plan. They agreed with the French as to the difficulty of the Ardennes region. They squelched the plan, and hid it from Hitler. In anger, Manstein confronted Brauschitsch, and the higher up general assigned him to a remote district. But before he left, Manstein held a war game in which he demonstrated how the current plan would lead to a stalemate, while his plan would result in a quick victory. Hitler learned of the war game and overruled his chiefs of staff, inviting Manstein (who was disliked by his fellow generals because he was arrogant and abrasive) to describe the new idea. Hitler loved it, and Halder and Brauschitsch abruptly changed their minds. The Manstein plan became known as Case Yellow.
The date for the start of the attack was May 10. The allies were informed of this date by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, cheif of the Abwehr, the German intelligence service. This shady character disliked Hitler and was implicit in later attempts to assasinate him. The Supreme War Council could not be certain the information was accurate and were involved in Norway at the time; in any case, they did not act upon it, and the actual attack came as a surprise.
The German General Staff was perhaps the finest group of military strategists in all of history. They easily defeated the French in 1870, and this influenced their thinking about France ever since. In the 1890's, Count Alfred von Schlieffen designed a plan for a quick conquest of France in the event of a two front war. It called for an invasion through Belgium and the Netherlands and a then a sweep of forces quickly towards Paris. Schlieffen, however, thought it was extremely important to the success of this plan to invade both Belgium AND Holland- otherwise the foe could circle around northwards and attack the right flank. His actual dying words were supposedly "Guard the right flank!"
His successor, Von Moltke, dismissed this idea as too costly, preferring the speed of only going through Belgium. He modified the plan to exclude Holland, and therefore the plan that was actually used in 1914 should have been called "The Von Moltke Plan". It very nearly succeeded.
By January of 1940, the Germans had massed over two million men on the borders of France, Belgium and Holland. The plan for attack was basically a reprise of the Schlieffin plan, this time through all three low countries. This was exactly what the Allies anticipated, and might have resulted in a cataclysmic struggle in Belgium had it been carried through. However, that same month the British and French received copies of the German battle plans as a result of a crash landing by a German plane in Belgium. This fact caused Hitler to panic and postpone the attack. Later, he postponed it again until Norway was conquered.
Meanwhile, Lt General Erich von Manstein, considered one of the most brilliant strategic minds of the German army, proceeded to prove it now. The Ardennes was considered inpenetrable, he reasoned. But if you moved armor through it, it would be hidden from above, would it not? Manstein devised a plan where the Germans would feint in Belgium and Holland, in order to get the British and French to place their forces their. Meanwhile the main German thrust would be through the Ardennes. Once they broke through the thin French defenses there, they would effectively cut off all of the British and French troops, trapping them. In one quick stroke, the battle would be won for Germany.
It took some time for Manstein's plan to reach Hitler's attention. For more conservative cheif such as Halder and Brauschitsch, it was far too risky a plan. They agreed with the French as to the difficulty of the Ardennes region. They squelched the plan, and hid it from Hitler. In anger, Manstein confronted Brauschitsch, and the higher up general assigned him to a remote district. But before he left, Manstein held a war game in which he demonstrated how the current plan would lead to a stalemate, while his plan would result in a quick victory. Hitler learned of the war game and overruled his chiefs of staff, inviting Manstein (who was disliked by his fellow generals because he was arrogant and abrasive) to describe the new idea. Hitler loved it, and Halder and Brauschitsch abruptly changed their minds. The Manstein plan became known as Case Yellow.
The date for the start of the attack was May 10. The allies were informed of this date by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, cheif of the Abwehr, the German intelligence service. This shady character disliked Hitler and was implicit in later attempts to assasinate him. The Supreme War Council could not be certain the information was accurate and were involved in Norway at the time; in any case, they did not act upon it, and the actual attack came as a surprise.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
One of the things that strikes me is that the losers in a war are usually the ones who are most likely to conceive new strategies which have the potential to overcome their opponents. Whereas the victors in a previous war are usually married to the strategies which won them the last war. Because WW2 was occurring at a time of rapid technological change, the advantages of armor and airpower were more obvious to the ones who had lost in the past (the Germans), or those who were at a numerical and economic disadvantage (the Japanese).Certainly the Allies were much slower to realize the rapid mobility of armor, and how it changed the battlefield, and the inherent disadvantage of battleships with the advent of the fast carrier.
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timschochet
Footballguy
All true. But the British did develop radar first. And as you already know and we shall end up relating in detail, the American industrial machine completely changed all aspects of strategy once it got moving and simply dominated the war in every theatre.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Dutch Plan, and the initial German Attack
Holland was not unprepared for the German assault. Despite the refusal to have staff talks with the British and French (or even Belgium), the Dutch had a definite plan to repel the Germans should they dare to invade. All over Holland there were dikes that kept the sea from overflowing the plains. The plan was to pull a few levers, and the plains would be flooded. The mass of the population would flee into Fortress Holland, blow up all the bridges, and the Blitzkrieg would be drowned.
This plan was prevented by a new German phenomenon: the paratrooper. On the morning of May 10, hundreds of paratroopers were dropped into Holland. Some of these wore Dutch uniforms, and all had machine guns, radios, and rubber boats for crossing the canals. They easily seized the levers, secured the bridges, and opened them for the Panzers to come rolling in. Meanwhile Stukas flew in and bombed the cities, including Rotterdam, which had been declared "open". The speed in which this all happened completely demoralized the Dutch. More paratroopers were dropped over each airfield, and before the antiaircraft guns could fire effectively, many of these were seized.
The Dutch fought back bravely, especially at the Hague, where in one airfield 10 out of 13 German transport planes were shot down. Other German troops there were massacred by obstacles that had been set waiting for them. It was all for naught; in 5 days, Holland surrendered. The speed of the German attack was simply overwhelming, though in truth the population was as much paralyzed by rumors and exaggerations about the Germans. Germany used 4,000 paratroops, and only lost 180. Queen Wilhemina fled for England, and Holland became another cog in the New Order.
Holland was not unprepared for the German assault. Despite the refusal to have staff talks with the British and French (or even Belgium), the Dutch had a definite plan to repel the Germans should they dare to invade. All over Holland there were dikes that kept the sea from overflowing the plains. The plan was to pull a few levers, and the plains would be flooded. The mass of the population would flee into Fortress Holland, blow up all the bridges, and the Blitzkrieg would be drowned.
This plan was prevented by a new German phenomenon: the paratrooper. On the morning of May 10, hundreds of paratroopers were dropped into Holland. Some of these wore Dutch uniforms, and all had machine guns, radios, and rubber boats for crossing the canals. They easily seized the levers, secured the bridges, and opened them for the Panzers to come rolling in. Meanwhile Stukas flew in and bombed the cities, including Rotterdam, which had been declared "open". The speed in which this all happened completely demoralized the Dutch. More paratroopers were dropped over each airfield, and before the antiaircraft guns could fire effectively, many of these were seized.
The Dutch fought back bravely, especially at the Hague, where in one airfield 10 out of 13 German transport planes were shot down. Other German troops there were massacred by obstacles that had been set waiting for them. It was all for naught; in 5 days, Holland surrendered. The speed of the German attack was simply overwhelming, though in truth the population was as much paralyzed by rumors and exaggerations about the Germans. Germany used 4,000 paratroops, and only lost 180. Queen Wilhemina fled for England, and Holland became another cog in the New Order.
timschochet
Footballguy
Fort Eban-Emael and the Invasion of Belgium
The major Belgian defensive position was along the line of the Albert Canal. The bridges over this canal was guarded by one of the most impregnable forts in the entire world, Eban-Emael- impregnable that is, except for it's roof. For this attack, Hitler personally summoned Karl Student, the commander of all German airborne forces. Student assembled a handpicked small group of 80 elite paratroopers-engineers. These practiced on a complete replica of the fort for weeks. Armed with the most up to date hand explosives the Germans had, they were sent on gliders and dropped onto the roof of the fort at night, completely surprising the gunners there and killing them all. There were over 1,000 Belgian soldiers inside the fort; had they rushed to the roof they could have easily overwhelmed the intruders, but they remained at their posts, which allowed the Germans to destroy all the big guns by dropping explosives down their muzzles. The fort surrendered within a day, the news of which shocked not only Belgium but the entire world. This surrender allowed more German gliders to seize all of the bridges, and in came the panzers.
Surprised by the panzers, the Belgian army was forced to fall back, where they ran into the British and French troops, who were now executing their plan of moving into Belgium. And all the while, the main German attack had not yet even started.
The major Belgian defensive position was along the line of the Albert Canal. The bridges over this canal was guarded by one of the most impregnable forts in the entire world, Eban-Emael- impregnable that is, except for it's roof. For this attack, Hitler personally summoned Karl Student, the commander of all German airborne forces. Student assembled a handpicked small group of 80 elite paratroopers-engineers. These practiced on a complete replica of the fort for weeks. Armed with the most up to date hand explosives the Germans had, they were sent on gliders and dropped onto the roof of the fort at night, completely surprising the gunners there and killing them all. There were over 1,000 Belgian soldiers inside the fort; had they rushed to the roof they could have easily overwhelmed the intruders, but they remained at their posts, which allowed the Germans to destroy all the big guns by dropping explosives down their muzzles. The fort surrendered within a day, the news of which shocked not only Belgium but the entire world. This surrender allowed more German gliders to seize all of the bridges, and in came the panzers.
Surprised by the panzers, the Belgian army was forced to fall back, where they ran into the British and French troops, who were now executing their plan of moving into Belgium. And all the while, the main German attack had not yet even started.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Ardennes Breakthrough
So now the French and British troops (there were Polish troops as well) stuck with their plan of moving into Belgium. On May 12, the French 1st Calvary Corps engaged a German tank squadron at Breda, near the Dyle river in Belgium. This was part of Gamelin's scheme, and so confident was he that he threw all of his reserves into the action. This battle was the first ever clash of tanks in world history. The French tanks were superior in make, and actually appeared to secure a victory by firing at long distance. This allowed the French 1st Army to move forward and consolidate the overall French position. This "victory" was celebrated in the Paris newspapers, but not for long. Stukas were able to attack the French armor, which had no air cover. German tanks operating in packs were able to pick off individual French tanks which had, at Gamelins orders, been dispersed among the infantry. Over 100 French tanks were destroyed. And while this was going on, nobody paid attention to the Ardennes...
The Allied forces guarding the Meuse river were the French 9th Army under General Corap and the French 2nd Army under General Huntziger. The French had not been expecting battle in this area, and no elite forces had been placed here. These armies were the same slovenly troops that I mentioned earlier so worried General Brooke. Many were colonials from North Africa with resentment at being drafted to help France in the first place. Often these troops were drunk when they were off duty, or even on duty. Their morale was terrible, they hated their officers, they did not want to be there- and it was upon these men that the full German might was about to fall.
The commander of the German forces rushing through the Ardennes was Von Kleist. However, Guderian was in charge of the armor, and this fact would be key to what happened. Another divisional commander who was about to make a name for himself was the then unknown Erwin Rommel. Rommel's 7th Division was actually the first to reach the Meuse river and cross it by building a pontoon bridge. But it was Guderian's forces that followed that were the main body. They reached the Meuse on May 13, but now it was up to the Luftwaffe to destroy the French before the armor could cross.
The entire strength of the Luftwaffe, some 1500 fighters and bombers, were thrown into this one battle. They raked the opposite side of the river. Allied aircraft was shot down quickly. They did whatever damage they could and now an elite German division began paddling across the river towards the other side. French soldiers that were left raked them with gunfire, but on they came to the other side and charged the French positions. The French fought back bravely; 70% of the German attackers were killed or wounded. But they kept coming. By dusk, 6 German infantry batallions had formed a bridgehead on the west side of the Meuse, but still no armor had crossed.
Still, a counterattack at this point could have stopped the Germans, particulary from the air. The Luftwaffe was spent for the time being. But the isolation of Gamelin (which I described much earlier) created a crisis in the chain of command. He was needed to release the French air force. When he first heard the news that the Germans were attempting to break through at Ardennes, he refused to believe that this was real. Meanwhile, the French at the scene were panicking. "The Germans!" was on everyones lips, and hundreds of French soldiers simply threw down their guns and fled in terror.
Not General Huntziger. His tanks engaged Guderians and at first sent them reeling backwards. But Huntziger did not pursue, and Guderian returned with overwhelming numbers. Desperately Allied air forces on the scene attempted to destroy the pontoon bridges that were bringing the tanks across. The R.A.F. sent over 70 bombers and 250 fighters and engaged the Luftwaffe, which had returned. 49 British bombers and 50 fighters were knocked out of the sky. It was the worst defeat for the R.A.F. in the entire war. (But they fought well against overwhelming odds, and they were joined by only 28 French bombers at the scene, all of which were destroyed.
Guderian's plan was to rush foward into the breach once the river was crossed. However, Hitler, ever fearful of a counterattack, ordered Guderian to wait until more strength had arrived. But Guderian pretended that he had not received the order and plunged forward. With the support of General List, and against the orders of both Hitler and Kleist, Guderian not only rushed his armor as quickly as he could, but also made himself unavailable for further contact. He did not stop until nightfall when he was 70 miles from Sedan, and he did not stop after that until when, three days later, he he reached Abbeville on the Channel coast.
The allies had been cut in two. This was perhaps the most sweeping victory in all of military history. And it was mostly due to the individual initiative of Guderian, and the planning of Manstein. These two made it happen.
So now the French and British troops (there were Polish troops as well) stuck with their plan of moving into Belgium. On May 12, the French 1st Calvary Corps engaged a German tank squadron at Breda, near the Dyle river in Belgium. This was part of Gamelin's scheme, and so confident was he that he threw all of his reserves into the action. This battle was the first ever clash of tanks in world history. The French tanks were superior in make, and actually appeared to secure a victory by firing at long distance. This allowed the French 1st Army to move forward and consolidate the overall French position. This "victory" was celebrated in the Paris newspapers, but not for long. Stukas were able to attack the French armor, which had no air cover. German tanks operating in packs were able to pick off individual French tanks which had, at Gamelins orders, been dispersed among the infantry. Over 100 French tanks were destroyed. And while this was going on, nobody paid attention to the Ardennes...
The Allied forces guarding the Meuse river were the French 9th Army under General Corap and the French 2nd Army under General Huntziger. The French had not been expecting battle in this area, and no elite forces had been placed here. These armies were the same slovenly troops that I mentioned earlier so worried General Brooke. Many were colonials from North Africa with resentment at being drafted to help France in the first place. Often these troops were drunk when they were off duty, or even on duty. Their morale was terrible, they hated their officers, they did not want to be there- and it was upon these men that the full German might was about to fall.
The commander of the German forces rushing through the Ardennes was Von Kleist. However, Guderian was in charge of the armor, and this fact would be key to what happened. Another divisional commander who was about to make a name for himself was the then unknown Erwin Rommel. Rommel's 7th Division was actually the first to reach the Meuse river and cross it by building a pontoon bridge. But it was Guderian's forces that followed that were the main body. They reached the Meuse on May 13, but now it was up to the Luftwaffe to destroy the French before the armor could cross.
The entire strength of the Luftwaffe, some 1500 fighters and bombers, were thrown into this one battle. They raked the opposite side of the river. Allied aircraft was shot down quickly. They did whatever damage they could and now an elite German division began paddling across the river towards the other side. French soldiers that were left raked them with gunfire, but on they came to the other side and charged the French positions. The French fought back bravely; 70% of the German attackers were killed or wounded. But they kept coming. By dusk, 6 German infantry batallions had formed a bridgehead on the west side of the Meuse, but still no armor had crossed.
Still, a counterattack at this point could have stopped the Germans, particulary from the air. The Luftwaffe was spent for the time being. But the isolation of Gamelin (which I described much earlier) created a crisis in the chain of command. He was needed to release the French air force. When he first heard the news that the Germans were attempting to break through at Ardennes, he refused to believe that this was real. Meanwhile, the French at the scene were panicking. "The Germans!" was on everyones lips, and hundreds of French soldiers simply threw down their guns and fled in terror.
Not General Huntziger. His tanks engaged Guderians and at first sent them reeling backwards. But Huntziger did not pursue, and Guderian returned with overwhelming numbers. Desperately Allied air forces on the scene attempted to destroy the pontoon bridges that were bringing the tanks across. The R.A.F. sent over 70 bombers and 250 fighters and engaged the Luftwaffe, which had returned. 49 British bombers and 50 fighters were knocked out of the sky. It was the worst defeat for the R.A.F. in the entire war. (But they fought well against overwhelming odds, and they were joined by only 28 French bombers at the scene, all of which were destroyed.
Guderian's plan was to rush foward into the breach once the river was crossed. However, Hitler, ever fearful of a counterattack, ordered Guderian to wait until more strength had arrived. But Guderian pretended that he had not received the order and plunged forward. With the support of General List, and against the orders of both Hitler and Kleist, Guderian not only rushed his armor as quickly as he could, but also made himself unavailable for further contact. He did not stop until nightfall when he was 70 miles from Sedan, and he did not stop after that until when, three days later, he he reached Abbeville on the Channel coast.
The allies had been cut in two. This was perhaps the most sweeping victory in all of military history. And it was mostly due to the individual initiative of Guderian, and the planning of Manstein. These two made it happen.
timschochet
Footballguy
Winston Churchill's first few days had been spent organizing his cabinet. Events from France and Belgium were confused, and he was as yet unaware of the Sedan breakthrough. On the morning of May 14, he received a call from Reynard. Here, according, to historical record, is an exact transcript:
Reynard We have been defeated. We are beaten. We have lost the battle.
Churchill Surely it can't have happened so soon?
Reynard The front is broken near Sedan. They are pouring through in great numbers, with tanks and armored cars.
Churchill All experience shows that the offensive will come to an end after a while. I remember the 21st of March, 1918. (Churchill here is referring to Ludendorff's attack on the western front, following the German/Russian peace treaty, which allowed the Kaiser's forces to throw all their eastern troops into the battle.) After five or six days they have to halt for supplies, and the opportunity for counterattack is presented. I learned all this at the time from Marshall Foch himself."
Reynard (after a long pause, and some sobbing) We are defeated. We have lost the battle.
Churchill said he would fly right over and discuss it further. Reynard agreed to have him meet with Gamelin to explain. Then Reynard told Churchill there was only one hope- to throw every last squadron of the Royal Air Force into the battle. Churchill did not comment.
Before leaving for France, Churchill met with the commander of the R.A.F., Sir General Hugh Dowding, and put this question to him: currently there were 31 squadrons of the R.A.F. still in England and not in France. If France were conquered, what were the absolute minimum number of squadrons necessary to defend England? Dowding answered that, if cut to the bone, England needed at least 25 squadrons intact. Churchill took this knowledge with him to Paris, but did not reveal it to anyone (it was not revealed until after the war.)
Reynard We have been defeated. We are beaten. We have lost the battle.
Churchill Surely it can't have happened so soon?
Reynard The front is broken near Sedan. They are pouring through in great numbers, with tanks and armored cars.
Churchill All experience shows that the offensive will come to an end after a while. I remember the 21st of March, 1918. (Churchill here is referring to Ludendorff's attack on the western front, following the German/Russian peace treaty, which allowed the Kaiser's forces to throw all their eastern troops into the battle.) After five or six days they have to halt for supplies, and the opportunity for counterattack is presented. I learned all this at the time from Marshall Foch himself."
Reynard (after a long pause, and some sobbing) We are defeated. We have lost the battle.
Churchill said he would fly right over and discuss it further. Reynard agreed to have him meet with Gamelin to explain. Then Reynard told Churchill there was only one hope- to throw every last squadron of the Royal Air Force into the battle. Churchill did not comment.
Before leaving for France, Churchill met with the commander of the R.A.F., Sir General Hugh Dowding, and put this question to him: currently there were 31 squadrons of the R.A.F. still in England and not in France. If France were conquered, what were the absolute minimum number of squadrons necessary to defend England? Dowding answered that, if cut to the bone, England needed at least 25 squadrons intact. Churchill took this knowledge with him to Paris, but did not reveal it to anyone (it was not revealed until after the war.)
Fantastic thread guys, just wanted to chime in to let you know that I appreciate the effort!
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timschochet
Footballguy
Glad you're enjoying it. I will be gone most of today, but will try to add more tonight. If anyone wants to chime in in the meantime, be my guest!
Ozymandias
Footballguy
Of all the things which happened in the early days of WW2, the total collapse of France must have been the most shocking. This was a country which had been one of the victors in WW1, and yet they were overrun in just a few weeks.
timschochet
Footballguy
Churchill arrived in Paris on the morning of the 16th. Outside, the streets were calm; the public was not yet informed of the disaster. Reynaud held a postcard in his hand from a soldier, which he handed to Churchill. It read, "I am killing myself, M. le Premier, to let you know that all my men were brave, but one cannot send men to fight tanks with rifles."
Gamelin explained what had happened. Churchill then asked in his poor French, "Ou est las masse de manouvre?" Where is the strategic reserve?
"Aucune," was the answer. There isn't any.
According to Churchill's memoirs, this answer stunned him greater than any other moment in his life. How could this General, supposed to be the world's formost professional soldier, have thrown away his strategic reserve on a gamble on the border in Belgium? But that's what he had done. The Prime Minister was learning that not only were his own troops trapped, but the German armor was rushing towards them with nothing to stop it.
Reynaud had had enough. He dismissed Gamelin and replaced him with General Maxim Weygand, a hero of the last war. But he was 74 years old, and currently in command of the middle east French forces. His first comment on returning to Paris a few days later was, "If I had known the situation, I never would have left Syria." Also invited into the war council was eighty-four year old Marshall Henri Petain, world famous for the Battle of Verdun, and at this point a Nazi sympathizer and a defeatist. As he left Madrid, he told the press, "My country has been beaten and they are calling me back to make peace and sign an armistice."
Reynaud again pressed Churchill to throw in more R.A.F. squadrons. Churchill had come to Paris willing to throw in 4 more, but in order to stiffen Reynaud's resolve, he agreed to 6. This cut England's defenses down to 25 squadrons, the absolute minimum needed to defend against the Luftwafffe. Though in the coming days Reynaud would beg again and again for more help, Churchill would not bend on this point. Other French ministers, particularly the defeatist Laval, accused Churchill of treachery for this and blamed him for the fact that they were forced to surrender.
Gamelin explained what had happened. Churchill then asked in his poor French, "Ou est las masse de manouvre?" Where is the strategic reserve?
"Aucune," was the answer. There isn't any.
According to Churchill's memoirs, this answer stunned him greater than any other moment in his life. How could this General, supposed to be the world's formost professional soldier, have thrown away his strategic reserve on a gamble on the border in Belgium? But that's what he had done. The Prime Minister was learning that not only were his own troops trapped, but the German armor was rushing towards them with nothing to stop it.
Reynaud had had enough. He dismissed Gamelin and replaced him with General Maxim Weygand, a hero of the last war. But he was 74 years old, and currently in command of the middle east French forces. His first comment on returning to Paris a few days later was, "If I had known the situation, I never would have left Syria." Also invited into the war council was eighty-four year old Marshall Henri Petain, world famous for the Battle of Verdun, and at this point a Nazi sympathizer and a defeatist. As he left Madrid, he told the press, "My country has been beaten and they are calling me back to make peace and sign an armistice."
Reynaud again pressed Churchill to throw in more R.A.F. squadrons. Churchill had come to Paris willing to throw in 4 more, but in order to stiffen Reynaud's resolve, he agreed to 6. This cut England's defenses down to 25 squadrons, the absolute minimum needed to defend against the Luftwafffe. Though in the coming days Reynaud would beg again and again for more help, Churchill would not bend on this point. Other French ministers, particularly the defeatist Laval, accused Churchill of treachery for this and blamed him for the fact that they were forced to surrender.
SofaKings
Footballguy
I think I read about the King and Halifax meeting in The Last Lion?
timschochet
Footballguy
Dunkirk
First I will try to explain what transpired at Dunkirk. Afterwards, we can get into the debate of why it happened.
As I wrote earlier, Guderian's tanks reached Abbeville on the Channel. At this point he wheeled north, making for the channel ports at the rear of the British Expeditionary Force, which was still in Belgium facing the frontal attacks of German infantry. On Guderian's right was Reinhardt's panzer corps. By May 22, Guderian entered Boulogne, and then Calais the next day. Now only the port of Dunkirk was available for the BEF to escape to. Guderian and Reinhardt were ready to occupy Dunkirk as well, but they received an order from High Command: Halt and stay where you are.
Enraged, Guderian and Reinhardt bombarded Kleist with complaints, and their superior replied, Der Fuehrer's order's. It was Adolf Hitler who personally stopped the tanks from blocking off the last escape route.
Meanwhile, the BEF under Lord Gort and General Alan Brooke had been moving in a southwesterly direction away from Dunkirk, towards the Somme. This was in conjunction with the plan of the new French commander, Weygand, who wanted to create a strong front to halt the thrust of the Germans. But Churchill was skeptical of this plan. Thanks to Enigma (More on this later) they had cracked the German codes, and learned of the halting of the armor, though they did not reveal this information to their French allies. Lord Gort was ordered to abandon the Somme plan and move his troops towards Dunkirk. The French command never forgot this turn of events, which they considered "treachery". To make matters worse, this was the same day when King Leopold surrendered the remaining Belgian troops. The Belgians had fought bravely but were simply overwhelmed. They sacrificed several divisions to allow the British to escape. The BEF began it's masterly fighting retreat to the sea. The commanders included Gort, Alan Brooke, Harold Alexander, and a rising general named Bernard Law Montgomery. At one point a lunatic asylum was bombed, and the freed inmates intermingled with the British soldiers. On May 27, they arrived at Dunkirk.
The Admiralty had assembled as weird a fleet as ever existed to bring the troops back to England: coastal steamers, ferries, pleasure boats, even America's Cup Yachts- overall 887 vessels, of which the vast majority were civilian. Meanwhile in the skies the R.A.F. and the Luftwaffe fought for control of the air. The British were generally outnumbered 2-1 yet gained air mastery thanks to the manueverabilty of the Spitfires and Hurricanes, which we will discuss in great detail later. England was also helped by four days of rain which kept the Luftwaffe on the ground.
The result was the "Miracle at Dunkirk". The British had hoped to rescue a remnant of their forces, perhaps 10-20,000 men. Instead, 340,000 men were rescued- not only British (around 198,000) but also French, Polish, and Belgian. Not to mention the British commanders such as Montgomery, who would play such an important part later in the war. The nucleus of the British army had been saved, although almost all of their heavy equipment was lost. However, as Churchill told the House of Commons, "Wars are not won by evacuation." In the same speech, he added these immortal words:
Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.
We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France,
we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.
First I will try to explain what transpired at Dunkirk. Afterwards, we can get into the debate of why it happened.
As I wrote earlier, Guderian's tanks reached Abbeville on the Channel. At this point he wheeled north, making for the channel ports at the rear of the British Expeditionary Force, which was still in Belgium facing the frontal attacks of German infantry. On Guderian's right was Reinhardt's panzer corps. By May 22, Guderian entered Boulogne, and then Calais the next day. Now only the port of Dunkirk was available for the BEF to escape to. Guderian and Reinhardt were ready to occupy Dunkirk as well, but they received an order from High Command: Halt and stay where you are.
Enraged, Guderian and Reinhardt bombarded Kleist with complaints, and their superior replied, Der Fuehrer's order's. It was Adolf Hitler who personally stopped the tanks from blocking off the last escape route.
Meanwhile, the BEF under Lord Gort and General Alan Brooke had been moving in a southwesterly direction away from Dunkirk, towards the Somme. This was in conjunction with the plan of the new French commander, Weygand, who wanted to create a strong front to halt the thrust of the Germans. But Churchill was skeptical of this plan. Thanks to Enigma (More on this later) they had cracked the German codes, and learned of the halting of the armor, though they did not reveal this information to their French allies. Lord Gort was ordered to abandon the Somme plan and move his troops towards Dunkirk. The French command never forgot this turn of events, which they considered "treachery". To make matters worse, this was the same day when King Leopold surrendered the remaining Belgian troops. The Belgians had fought bravely but were simply overwhelmed. They sacrificed several divisions to allow the British to escape. The BEF began it's masterly fighting retreat to the sea. The commanders included Gort, Alan Brooke, Harold Alexander, and a rising general named Bernard Law Montgomery. At one point a lunatic asylum was bombed, and the freed inmates intermingled with the British soldiers. On May 27, they arrived at Dunkirk.
The Admiralty had assembled as weird a fleet as ever existed to bring the troops back to England: coastal steamers, ferries, pleasure boats, even America's Cup Yachts- overall 887 vessels, of which the vast majority were civilian. Meanwhile in the skies the R.A.F. and the Luftwaffe fought for control of the air. The British were generally outnumbered 2-1 yet gained air mastery thanks to the manueverabilty of the Spitfires and Hurricanes, which we will discuss in great detail later. England was also helped by four days of rain which kept the Luftwaffe on the ground.
The result was the "Miracle at Dunkirk". The British had hoped to rescue a remnant of their forces, perhaps 10-20,000 men. Instead, 340,000 men were rescued- not only British (around 198,000) but also French, Polish, and Belgian. Not to mention the British commanders such as Montgomery, who would play such an important part later in the war. The nucleus of the British army had been saved, although almost all of their heavy equipment was lost. However, as Churchill told the House of Commons, "Wars are not won by evacuation." In the same speech, he added these immortal words:
Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.
We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France,
we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.
timschochet
Footballguy
The Dunkirk Debate
Most historians believe that Adolf Hitler's order to halt Guderian's armor from entering Dunkirk was his first great mistake of the war, and which contributed heavily to his eventual downfall. By allowing the British forces to escape, England was able to use them later on as the spearhead of their eventual victory over the Nazis. There are three reasons usually given for Hitler's decision:
Hitler wanted to make peace with the British. According to this argument, Hitler's halting of the armor was meant as an olive branch in order to make a peace with England. This theory was expressed earlier in this thread by Christo, and has support among a number of historians. I find it extremely implausible, because of the way the escape took place. Even without Guderian, the BEF had to execute a fighting escape, defeat the Luftwaffe, and then evacuate from the beach using hundreds of pleasure vessels. It's ridiculous to assume that Hitler foresaw all of this when he halted the armor. If he really wanted them to escape, why not call off the Luftwaffe and infantry too? Like most conspiracy theories, this one makes very little sense to me.
Hitler wanted Goering and the Luftwaffe to have the victory. This theory was put forward by an angry Guderian after the war. He believed that Goering was jealous of the Wehrmacht, and wanted to share in the glory. So Hitler gave him the chance to destroy the British, and Goering failed. My problem with this theory is that Hitler never before or since removed troops or halted them in order to give one particular person the glory. Though certainly Goering was the sort who cared about such things, Hitler never did. I believe this story was spread as a result of Guderian's resentmnent. Throughout the war he felt hamstrung by Hitler, and this would be even more evident during the Russian campaign.
Hitler simply panicked, afraid of a counter attack. Personally, I think this is the most likely answer. Hitler had demonstrated during the Norway campaign a tendency to panic in tight situations, and he would do this with increasing frequency as the war progressed. I think Hitler himself was stunned at the ease of the victory about to be his- he did not trust reports that there were no strategic reserve, and was terrified that there were French troops just waiting to pounce on him and destroy his great moment. So he halted the tanks because he was afraid this might happen.
In the end, there is no proof one way or the other, and historians have argued this ever since and probably always will. I have expressed my opinion, but I'm sure others here will differ.
Most historians believe that Adolf Hitler's order to halt Guderian's armor from entering Dunkirk was his first great mistake of the war, and which contributed heavily to his eventual downfall. By allowing the British forces to escape, England was able to use them later on as the spearhead of their eventual victory over the Nazis. There are three reasons usually given for Hitler's decision:
Hitler wanted to make peace with the British. According to this argument, Hitler's halting of the armor was meant as an olive branch in order to make a peace with England. This theory was expressed earlier in this thread by Christo, and has support among a number of historians. I find it extremely implausible, because of the way the escape took place. Even without Guderian, the BEF had to execute a fighting escape, defeat the Luftwaffe, and then evacuate from the beach using hundreds of pleasure vessels. It's ridiculous to assume that Hitler foresaw all of this when he halted the armor. If he really wanted them to escape, why not call off the Luftwaffe and infantry too? Like most conspiracy theories, this one makes very little sense to me.
Hitler wanted Goering and the Luftwaffe to have the victory. This theory was put forward by an angry Guderian after the war. He believed that Goering was jealous of the Wehrmacht, and wanted to share in the glory. So Hitler gave him the chance to destroy the British, and Goering failed. My problem with this theory is that Hitler never before or since removed troops or halted them in order to give one particular person the glory. Though certainly Goering was the sort who cared about such things, Hitler never did. I believe this story was spread as a result of Guderian's resentmnent. Throughout the war he felt hamstrung by Hitler, and this would be even more evident during the Russian campaign.
Hitler simply panicked, afraid of a counter attack. Personally, I think this is the most likely answer. Hitler had demonstrated during the Norway campaign a tendency to panic in tight situations, and he would do this with increasing frequency as the war progressed. I think Hitler himself was stunned at the ease of the victory about to be his- he did not trust reports that there were no strategic reserve, and was terrified that there were French troops just waiting to pounce on him and destroy his great moment. So he halted the tanks because he was afraid this might happen.
In the end, there is no proof one way or the other, and historians have argued this ever since and probably always will. I have expressed my opinion, but I'm sure others here will differ.
timschochet
Footballguy
Enigma
Earlier I referenced the British breaking of the German Enigma code just in time for the Dunkirk evacuation. This entire story is complex and fascinating, and though I will only briefly describe it here, it is well worth reading about it detail, especially for those who enjoy mathematical puzzles.
The Germans believed they had developed an machine to give Army orders that could not be broken. Called Egnigma after an Edward Elgar composition, it was a bulky typewriter with letters, but no numbers or punctuation marks. Behind the machine was the 26 letters of the alphabet on a desk. When you typed in a letter on the machine, a different letter would light up on the desk. If you typed the same letter twice, two different letters would light up. These new letters were then transmitted in morse code by a radio operator. The receiver on the other end had the same apparatus, and he would type in the letters he had been given and read the message on his desk.
The Germans figured that even if these messages were intercepted, they could only be decoded if someone had possession of the same machine. Furthermore, the Enigma machine had millions of settings, and was reset every 24 hours. Therefore, they had reason to consider their code to be foolproof: even if you owned the machine, how could you possibly know which setting was being used?
To solve this seemingly insurmountable problem, Churchill recruited the greatest young mathematician in the British Empire, Alan Mathison Turing, who taught at Oxford. Turing, a strange eccentric, gathered a group of brilliant math people and chess wizards, and they worked in an old, gothic mansion outside of London known as Bletchley Park. They were helped by Polish scientists who had stolen about a half dozen of the early Enigma machines before the war. Turing and his geniuses created a new machine called Ultra which worked as a computer, designed to study every Enigma message. By May of 1940, they had broken the code.
I'm not really up enough on this sort of stuff to really explain how they did it. Here's hoping some math expert or someone with more knowledge on this particular subject can come in here and offer a better explanation.
Earlier I referenced the British breaking of the German Enigma code just in time for the Dunkirk evacuation. This entire story is complex and fascinating, and though I will only briefly describe it here, it is well worth reading about it detail, especially for those who enjoy mathematical puzzles.
The Germans believed they had developed an machine to give Army orders that could not be broken. Called Egnigma after an Edward Elgar composition, it was a bulky typewriter with letters, but no numbers or punctuation marks. Behind the machine was the 26 letters of the alphabet on a desk. When you typed in a letter on the machine, a different letter would light up on the desk. If you typed the same letter twice, two different letters would light up. These new letters were then transmitted in morse code by a radio operator. The receiver on the other end had the same apparatus, and he would type in the letters he had been given and read the message on his desk.
The Germans figured that even if these messages were intercepted, they could only be decoded if someone had possession of the same machine. Furthermore, the Enigma machine had millions of settings, and was reset every 24 hours. Therefore, they had reason to consider their code to be foolproof: even if you owned the machine, how could you possibly know which setting was being used?
To solve this seemingly insurmountable problem, Churchill recruited the greatest young mathematician in the British Empire, Alan Mathison Turing, who taught at Oxford. Turing, a strange eccentric, gathered a group of brilliant math people and chess wizards, and they worked in an old, gothic mansion outside of London known as Bletchley Park. They were helped by Polish scientists who had stolen about a half dozen of the early Enigma machines before the war. Turing and his geniuses created a new machine called Ultra which worked as a computer, designed to study every Enigma message. By May of 1940, they had broken the code.
I'm not really up enough on this sort of stuff to really explain how they did it. Here's hoping some math expert or someone with more knowledge on this particular subject can come in here and offer a better explanation.
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